Julie Doar, The Gallagher Place, at Zibby's Bookshop x Minnie Rose
[0:00]welcome thank you thank you for having me yeah um why don't you tell listeners and by the way
[0:05]this is a book that's really publishing is actually publishing so um tell listeners a little bit
[0:11]about your book this is my debut novel so i'm very excited uh it's a murder mystery set in
[0:18]Hudson Valley at the state and work it really i think explores mostly a family dynamic
[0:26]and the secrets families can keep from each other the main character Marlow when she was 16
[0:33]her best friend vanished and that's kind of something that's haunted her into adulthood
[0:38]and this story explores it takes place over the course of a few weeks when the discovery of a
[0:46]body on her family's land and upstate New York prompts her to really dig into her past and question
[0:55]her family her friends people she's never questioned before so i think ultimately it's about
[1:00]re-examining your own memories so before we get more into the book can we back up
[1:07]because you're a former Starbucks burrito turned english to third teacher yeah turned novelist
[1:13]because back a little bit about how this whole thing happens so i always wanted to be a writer
[1:20]after graduating college i knew it and i did a little bit of the corporate world i was in sales
[1:26]for a time and i just thought i either need to write a novel or i guess this is my life uh
[1:32]and i decided to work part-time at starbucks so i could have time to write
[1:38]and i was i ended up being at starbucks for four years so i like to joke i got my
[1:44]hd and starbucks uh i need drink i was actually very good at making the check you were so
[1:51]i was very fast i'm sure everyone would have loved to see me behind the bar but
[1:57]it was it was a long time and i was writing and working at starbucks and for a long time that
[2:02]was it it was a very private manuscript i was working on and i was revising it and private
[2:08]it and it's true everyone always said you know publication is a very long process and i have
[2:15]definitely found that to be true because it felt like it happened over the course of several
[2:21]years and very small steps so i got an agent that took a long time and then he was sending it around
[2:30]way back way back up to you at starbucks yeah i just so you were like what were your hours there
[2:36]when were you writing like how did you fit all that in how did you maintain inspiration
[2:41]for what you were doing how did you structure the book was it always this book like give us more
[2:46]yes i was an opener at starbucks so i was clocking in at 4.30 yeah uh and doing the sort of first
[2:57]batches of coffee and then i would get off around 1 p.m so i would you would think okay that's
[3:06]a long long hours in the afternoon to write but um when you wake up at 3.30 a.m you want to go to
[3:13]sleep at 5 p.m so it was it did take a lot of discipline and i found what worked best for me was just
[3:23]forcing myself to write something every day that and that stayed this
[3:30]but i was just writing a period of time and i remember finishing it and feeling like okay this is
[3:43]something this is the first time i finished something that feels like it could i know it's not very
[3:48]yet but it's promising uh and so then i went straight into revising it and trying to make it better
[3:55]getting whoever i could to read it co-workers at starbucks i had one co-worker she was very enthusiastic
[4:03]not the best starbucks first but i loved her but she was always down to read things i'd read
[4:09]and she did read this and she said she read it and to me that was a compliment that she got
[4:15]to the end that was kind of what i was looking for when people read it all the way through
[4:20]uh i forget what feedback she gave she had a lot of feedback actually but she's our next hire
[4:26]yes um and the revision process actually i think took longer than the writing process just trying
[4:34]to figure out the best way to tell the story well okay let's go back to the dead body and you
[4:41]wanting to write about that yeah did you ever find anything what where did that come from
[4:46]that came from my imagination i really growing up in up st new york i spent a lot of time outside
[4:54]and i really always believed i was about to find a dead body i it
[5:00]Every, I, my brothers used to make, I don't need to speak, go on walks in the woods,
[5:03]and at the whole time, I'd be saying, I'm so scared. I'm so scared. I can't, I can't walk any
[5:08]further. And they, of course, have no imagination. So they, they were like, there's nothing to
[5:15]be scared. There's nothing out here. You're being so ridiculous. But I never did find anything,
[5:22]but I really, it could have happened at any point. I was always making up scenarios.
[5:28]My brothers used to sort of sleep outside and stuff, and I couldn't even do that. I was too scared
[5:33]to camp. Yeah, I once tried to camp, weeping bags in my backyard, and I was like, no, yes,
[5:39]didn't make it, did not make it till 9 p.m. I think. So the setting of the Hudson Valley is
[5:46]so perfect for this type of thing and woodiness, and you dive deep into all the different
[5:52]parts of the Hudson Valley from the people who come for the weekends versus people
[5:57]who are locals and have been there for generations, and even the interactions between all
[6:01]those people. Can you talk a little bit about setting up that whole society and how it affects
[6:06]the main character? Yes, I think actually writing in a setting that's either a small town or rural
[6:16]is gives you a lot of opportunity because everyone knows everyone. So there's a lot of ways to
[6:25]get information to characters simply by the characters asking, oh, what's going on with that
[6:31]neighbor? And then people in small communities often know that, or there's old gossip. They remember
[6:39]about cousin. So growing up, I'd always felt that. I always felt like when I went to my brother's
[6:48]baseball games, there'd be parents of other of the players who knew my aunt somehow or had dated
[6:55]my aunt often. That was the case. How many people have dated? So I always loved that feeling of, oh,
[7:06]people I may not know no things about my family, or they know there are people's reputation.
[7:13]The teacher knows you knew my uncle back in the day. And my mom's family actually had a dairy farm
[7:23]in the area and were farmers. And they went small dairy farmers mostly went out of business and
[7:31]they turned it into a farm stand. So I was always very aware of that longer history that my mom's
[7:39]family had. And I really wanted to depict that. The area was changing lots of people in and out,
[7:47]but somehow everyone knew everything because it was a smaller community. Within the context of this
[7:54]replacement interconnected world, you have the disappearance of a young girl and how it affects
[8:01]one family in particular and really how it affects her best friends and how she comes to terms
[8:06]with that, how she always meets closure of course and is desperate for answers. Talk a little
[8:15]bit about that aspect of female friendship and what it does when someone who was there one minute
[8:21]suddenly vanishes. Yeah, I think it always wanted to depict a girlhood friend of because to me,
[8:31]there's something that's very intimate and very complex about girlhood dynamics, especially
[8:40]the ages sort of of 10, 11, 12 and then into teenage years. There's so much changing and there's
[8:47]so many emotions and you can either you have sort of intense love for your friends, but also an
[8:55]intense envy at times. And I wanted to depict that. And I think kind of the tragedy of Marlo is
[9:04]the friend was taken from her before the friendship had run its course almost. So she was in the
[9:11]middle of it. This very complex life defining friendship and then it just stopped. And I think a huge
[9:18]part of what I and how I would think about Marlo when I was writing about her as an adult was
[9:25]something stopped or something was stunted when she was 15 and this happened to her. She didn't
[9:32]learn something she was supposed to learn about growing up. And I really do think looking on my
[9:40]own life, friendships have played such an intense role and that's why I was drawn to write about that.
[9:47]Do you have a friend that you would worry would disappear? What else do you worry about, Julie?
[9:52]I worry about. I think I have worried a lot about. Oh, it's
[10:00]So strange when you're so close with someone and then either fades or years pass and
[10:06]you don't speak to them.
[10:07]I think about that a lot.
[10:08]I was very obsessed with that when I was a teenager, actually.
[10:12]I think I moved when I was 12, so I always felt like, oh, I feel there's this whole
[10:18]other life and I need to either keep in touch with it or not.
[10:22]And I had a lot of anguish, right balance for that.
[10:27]So I think maybe that one's okay right now.
[10:31]Yeah, we'll just wait one sec.
[10:38]So Marlow is speaking of therapy.
[10:42]Marlow develops as a grown-up, you know, some sort of maladaptive coping strategies,
[10:48]which we hear about because there are multiple timelines and sort of back and forth in the
[10:52]book.
[10:53]Talk a little bit about that and sort of the role of alcohol and the role of drowning
[10:57]out access to your feelings and just how she's processing.
[11:01]No judgment, just like how she decides to, how she finds a way through it.
[11:05]Yes.
[11:06]Marlow, I think her drinking is a coping mechanism and it's also really defined by secrecy.
[11:17]She's never letting people know how much she's drinking and I think the secrecy of it
[11:24]is what makes it so intense and so almost like a simmering thing in the background that
[11:33]you know is going to explode because it's not just how much she's drinking.
[11:38]Oh, she goes through a lot of ways to keep it secret.
[11:43]I had a lot of relatives who struggled with alcohol addiction so I did kind of, I always
[11:51]was aware of the secrecy aspect being almost the most controlling aspect of it.
[11:58]You're like the corrosiveness of secrets and how terrible they are and emotionally, whatever
[12:07]it is you're hiding is the basis of like nine tenths of the books out there.
[12:12]Yes, I would say so.
[12:13]I love a good secret in a book and in life too actually.
[12:17]Are there anyone here today?
[12:19]I don't know.
[12:20]The live going live has me a little nervous.
[12:23]I do think there's something so thrilling about when you have this really good piece
[12:29]of information that you're sharing with someone and keeping it in a small group.
[12:37]That can be fun but the flip side of that what I think is more in the book is the way
[12:41]when something's kept secret it almost becomes worse and worse over time and when it
[12:48]comes out it's just a rift or a huge betrayal.
[12:52]Well there are many layers secrets in this book, not just that's the least of it almost.
[12:57]True.
[12:58]But there's a long history of when a crime essentially happens who knew what and who wants
[13:04]to tell who what and is there anything to tell is that a mystery we can't give anything
[13:09]away.
[13:10]There's lots of twists and turns as we uncover along with Marlow what is known.
[13:15]There's a detective who is helping us dig deep and finding our way into the secrets.
[13:21]One thing that happens is the effect of this secret on her sibling relationships in her
[13:27]parents.
[13:28]I'm not surprised to hear you have brothers after reading this book.
[13:33]Talk a little bit about the three of them and how their relationships are defined and
[13:38]and the in-law is coming in and all of that but going back to that time when you kind
[13:42]of idolize maybe some of the people in your family what is that what did this whole thing
[13:47]do to that delicate infrastructure system?
[13:51]Yes.
[13:52]I always knew I was going to write something about sibling relationships I think especially
[14:01]when I was started writing because I have two older brothers and one younger it's one
[14:06]a middle child which is maybe why I like secrets but I think my brothers were very close
[14:13]in age and for a long time I define myself based on who based on them sort of how they
[14:22]the role I played in the group because we were just a group of us it was basically a friend
[14:27]group and that has kind of comes to light in this book as well that's not just siblings
[14:33]they are their play companions in a way so obviously it's fictionalized but I did
[14:40]I have an older brother who's sort of the inspiration for the older brother in this in the
[14:46]way that all this siblings the way they take charge and the way they can sometimes control
[14:53]the narrative in a way that I always admired my brother I always thought it was so powerful
[15:00]that when he told a story, everyone listened to him.
[15:03]Everyone wanted to hear the story, everyone laughed at his jokes, and then the younger
[15:09]brother in the book, I was always observant of my little brother in the way he would kind
[15:14]of mimic my older brothers, and I always thought it's so obvious what he's doing, he's
[15:20]just trying to be like them, but I think that's human nature.
[15:23]And I wanted to explore the way that can make you feel good, can make you feel like you
[15:29]know who you are, but it can also be difficult when you're changing, because we all
[15:36]change as humans, and maybe your siblings still see you as the role you were as a child.
[15:43]Yes.
[15:44]As we go into Thanksgiving as we're filming this show, many people are preparing to
[15:48]regress to their childhood personalities, so it's very, very common, and the book is not
[15:55]only about this family, but it's also what happens to Marla's family in the aftermath,
[16:01]particularly her dad.
[16:03]It's also about the family across the way, and the history that they've had with some
[16:07]really terrible stuff, talk a little bit about that.
[16:12]So the Marla's family is this sort of almost storybook family, I must say Marla.
[16:19]I mean, Nora's family is her father, yes, but after Nora's disappearance, her family
[16:26]kind of falls apart.
[16:30]There's also a family of farmers who are neighbors in a way to Marla's family, and I loved
[16:38]writing about them.
[16:39]I loved observing the farmers, I grew up with, my grandfather was a farmer, and there
[16:44]was something so unique about him, about the way he moved, about the way he spoke,
[16:51]about the way he looked, just having been a farmer his whole life.
[16:55]He had a very distinct face that, because he'd been in the sun his whole life, and his
[17:01]body was from hay bales, so I was just really loving writing about the farmers, and it
[17:09]is very tragic what happened to them, but I think part of growing up around these aging
[17:18]men was this sadness, this deep love for the land, but a deep sadness and almost a feeling
[17:25]that it was slipping out of their fingers.
[17:28]I remember one of my editors, Jordan, we were talking about the Gallagher's, so that's
[17:33]the name of the farmers, and he said it feels like they're the last of their kind.
[17:38]I really loved the way he put that, and I wanted to, I don't know, give an homage to
[17:45]that almost.
[17:47]Well, the book already is getting rave reviews, it was picked, if you didn't know, as
[17:54]the library reads top pick, top pick of December, which means all the librarians in
[17:59]the country vote, and this is the book, crazy, amazing, in addition to getting a star
[18:06]review in PW, which is also amazing, and very hard to do.
[18:12]How do you feel about that, and what do you think it is?
[18:15]I still can't believe it, I feel like I'm still pinching myself over a lot of it, obviously
[18:20]I feel so excited and honored.
[18:24]I did want this to be a patron, that's always how I pictured it, I wanted people to stay
[18:32]up late at night reading it, and I hope that is what people are responding to, this
[18:39]need to get to the end, figure out what happened, and I hope it's, as books always should
[18:47]offering kind of a, escape into a different world for however many hours you read it.
[18:53]Is that what you look for in a book?
[18:56]Are you a big page-turner?
[18:58]Oh yeah, had I?
[19:00]Yes, I think that's why I fell in love with murder mysteries and suspense and thriller
[19:06]in the first place, I love a good plot twist, I never see a plot twist coming, are you sure?
[19:13]And I don't try to, I'm not the type to guess, I let it happen to me, and I just
[19:19]think that's the best feeling, that's, I'm a little embarrassed though, by how bad I am
[19:23]I'm guessing plot twist, like I would think that after reading so much I would be getting
[19:26]better, but I'm really not, I have seen so many
[19:29]movies, I read so many books, where someone else who was reading the same books said it
[19:34]was so obvious and just ruined it for me, and I'll just think I did not even consider
[19:39]that, yeah, did not see it coming.
[19:42]I think I like it, I like the shock, amazing, so are you writing anything now, are you
[19:50]writing another book?
[19:51]Yes, I am working on something, it's also a mystery centers around, uh...
[20:00]kind of a body as we've been saying, but it's I've been to a lot of weddings in the
[20:08]last few years and it's a wedding weekend situation and much more focused on
[20:17]relationships in your mid to late 20s and the feeling, but sometimes an uneasy
[20:25]feeling of having a lot of different friends from different chapters of your
[20:29]life, all in one room, and all maybe passing judgment, whispering comments
[20:35]about everyone's stage of life. So that's kind of the main theme and what happens
[20:44]when there's now a tragedy in the midst of this and how do people react and who
[20:50]reverts back to which friendships is how I would describe it. So as people, you
[20:59]know, finish the gallery of place and all that, there are so many themes that you
[21:03]touch on from family and secrets to, you know, the evolution of society honestly
[21:09]and the uncontrollable turning of inventions and how they disrupt people's lives
[21:18]and you know, all of that and then how we cope with fear, how we cope with
[21:23]disappointment, how we cope with divided loyalty. Anyway, there are just so many
[21:28]things that could go on in that. When you think about the book though, what themes
[21:33]are most important or what do you want readers to really take away from it? I think
[21:38]I really think of memory when I think of it and I think of the dark side of
[21:46]memory, how memory can be lying to you and how sometimes you are never truly
[21:57]going to know what really happened because all you have is a memory that's been
[22:03]altered in some way. I would say that's the main thing I think of. Also to invoke
[22:09]fear and taking out the trash. That is Nora disappears while taking out the trash.
[22:13]I was like, oh, this is easy. I'll just never take the trash out of you. And that's
[22:17]why I think skimming. I will not be taking out the trash. My brothers made it. Oh my
[22:23]gosh. Well, so exciting, Julie. Last question. After working at Starbucks for four
[22:29]years, do you ever go back and what is your drink order? I do not go back. I have trouble
[22:37]going back in because I instantly start thinking someone needs to wipe down that
[22:43]counter. They're making my drink wrong. I could do this faster. It's just almost
[22:48]like a allergic reaction. But if I do go back, I do like the shaken espresso, the brown
[22:55]sugar, over ice with the oat milk. I've never had that. It's good, but barista sometimes
[23:01]make it wrong. They weren't trained by me. But it's a good one. I feel like I seem to
[23:08]might need some sort of high-level management situation. That's next. Well, I'm a
[23:13]tisher. So I am. That's challenging their life in a way. Again, wait, tell us a little
[23:18]bit more about your teaching and who are you teaching and what are you teaching? I currently
[23:23]teach eighth grade English and Brooklyn. I love it, but 13 year olds are a very tough crowd.
[23:31]So this isn't a great crowd. I'm not, I'm not used to people laughing at the show. I don't
[23:36]know. I had a tell joke because they never think I'm funny, but I do love teaching them.
[23:41]It's a great, I get to talk about books and I get to talk about writing a lot. And so
[23:47]it's been a good host Starbucks job. Well, this has all been happening. It feels very,
[23:54]it's a nice, it's been a nice balance to the book coming out to have spend all day talking
[23:58]about other books. Well, I keep saying last question, but okay, last question. What advice
[24:03]do you give to your eighth grade students or to other aspiring authors now that you have
[24:08]been down the road of getting a book published? I tell my students, they struggle with
[24:13]run-on sentences. So I tell them short sentences, write a short sentence. I also really do
[24:19]advise them. And I think this has helped a lot of them to steal from other writers, to read
[24:25]something good, not the advice he has done. It's late to rise, you guys do it. Steel the style,
[24:32]sort of. So because a lot of them will just kind of write and say, well, this is what I've written,
[24:39]and I say, no, you can put style into it. You can have a humorous tone, you can have a more
[24:44]introspective tone. So I give them a lot of essays to study and to really try and
[24:54]elevate their writing to that level. And I think that helped me a lot when I was a young writer.
[25:00]really reading things that I loved and thinking, okay, what is it that I love about this?
[25:05]How can I sort of pick this apart and be this good in a way?
[25:10]Well, Julie, thank you so much.
[25:13]Thanks for coming on totally booked.
[25:14]Thanks for trusting us.
[25:15]Thank you.
[25:16]Thank you.
[25:17]And yeah, you're so excited.
[25:18]I love you.
[25:19]Thank you.
[25:20]I love you.
[25:21]I love you.
[25:22]I love you.
[25:23]OK.
[25:24]Don't move.
[25:25]We can ask you a few questions, but I'm just going to turn this part off.