Author Event! Elise Hart Kipness x Susan Walter
[0:00]Yeah you're here. Okay thank you so much for coming tonight. It's really
[0:07]um lovely to have Susan and Elise here. We're celebrating Elise's latest release
[0:13]close call which was just went four weeks on the USA today. Sally Bliss which is
[0:23]my thank you. She's an option to apply MVC Universal and very day live in this company.
[0:33]Yes incredible. Thank you. We have Susan's look here in letters from strangers and then I also
[0:41]want to give a shout out to her next book which comes out in February from last time.
[0:46]Which I've read and it's amazing thank you. It's going to be about 30 minutes of discussion. We'll
[0:52]have about 15 minutes for Q&A 15 minutes for signing. We have both books available for purchase
[0:58]and all the other things. Thank you. Okay I don't have like a cool hot clock or watch or thing so
[1:04]okay Katrina you'll let us know when it's time for questions give us a sign like touch your nose or
[1:09]something. Well congratulations on close call. Thank you. Absolutely stunning work. I
[1:17]held my breath for the last two thirds because I wanted to know who done it.
[1:23]A kidnapping thriller right is that oh my god pacifying it correctly.
[1:29]So one thing that I love and this is the third in a trilogy. Am I right about that and this is it.
[1:34]Now for now Katie is um it's taking a break and I'm working on a new series but I never say
[1:43]I have like one more in my brain so maybe another day. I'm at each one is a different sport. Right
[1:48]so you did basketball basketball soccer at the US at the Olympics US Open Tennis and in my brain
[1:58]I want to do spring training in baseball. Ooh I'm all over that I love baseball.
[2:05]Do you guys watch the game last night? All 18 innings on it. Ooh man. Okay so I for me personally
[2:14]I tend to remember characters more than I remember plots right like a good character from a movie
[2:20]or a book will stay with you for a long time. So I'm obsessed with Kate Green. Tell me a little bit
[2:25]more about her and where she came from and also over three books. It's hard to sustain a character over
[2:32]three books but you did it. I think how how you grew her over three books. Well it for people who
[2:41]know me you've heard me say this so I apologize but um I like to think of Kate Green as like the
[2:48]way cooler version of me. So she is a soccer Olympic gold medalist. I'm a soccer mom.
[3:00]She chases bad guys through the tunnels of Madison Square Garden and on the concourse of
[3:08]the US Open and I chase my labradoodles through the yards and and on a more serious note Kate has
[3:19]much bigger demons than I do. You know her demons are her teenage children have one of them has
[3:29]bodied on drugs and there's a big estrangement. My dad's cousin is there and I'm like there's a
[3:37]big estrangement with the father. The biological father that has nothing to do with my dad but
[3:44]that's a big role in the book. The relationship with the biological father and an important role
[3:52]because he's also an NYPD detective so she needs his help and he wants to repair the relationship
[4:00]but at the same time she doesn't trust him. You know so that that's a big part of it and
[4:10]and Kate also on a more serious note as a sports reporter I felt just grateful to be in the game.
[4:18]I was one of very few women who were who were even reporting on sports so I was like very much
[4:32]the good girl. You know I didn't push back. I didn't say anything when people would
[4:38]maybe make things uncomfortable for me or weren't exactly fair and Kate right from the
[4:44]gate and in the first book you know stands up for herself in a way that I never did but that
[4:49]in a way that is so cathartic to me to write. I love that. She's like your wish fulfillment.
[4:57]Yeah and you know when we tell stories like and then I said
[5:00]I love about it, like, actually I didn't.
[5:01]Right, right, right.
[5:03]It's exactly right.
[5:05]So I hope I'm not giving too much away when I say
[5:07]there's a moment where she goes undercover.
[5:11]And I just wondering what it was like to write that
[5:14]is that a secret fantasy of yours
[5:15]to go undercover or she crosses the line from reporter
[5:18]because reporters are right there in there, right?
[5:20]They are sometimes instrumental in solving crimes
[5:23]just by the nature of being present
[5:25]and observing and asking questions
[5:26]and connecting with sources.
[5:29]So then there's a moment where she crosses the line.
[5:32]I found that so gripping.
[5:34]And I was so afraid for her.
[5:35]And I love it.
[5:36]As were some other characters.
[5:38]We're like, no, no, no, no, don't do that.
[5:40]So can you just talk about your choice to make that?
[5:42]And was it an impulsive choice?
[5:44]Or did it start at the very beginning?
[5:45]Like I knew from this book that I wanted her to do that
[5:48]because I loved it.
[5:49]Thank you, you know, I've been on tour for a while
[5:54]and that is the first time I've gotten that question.
[5:56]And I really like that question.
[5:58]So thank you for that.
[6:00]I think it was really a craft decision
[6:03]because I wanted Kate to be heavily involved
[6:07]in the investigation.
[6:09]And I really wanted to put her close to the danger.
[6:13]I wanted to put her close to the action.
[6:15]And it was a really good way to slip her in.
[6:19]And I have to say it was so fun to write that
[6:23]because, you know, I've been a reporter
[6:25]so I'm writing that but like to be undercover
[6:27]was really fun because I feel like, you know,
[6:29]we're like similar people.
[6:30]So I'm like, you said like wish fulfillment.
[6:33]So it was really fun.
[6:35]And I write a lot of the time in bed.
[6:37]So I'm like, I'll cozy and I have my lap desk
[6:40]and I'm writing.
[6:42]So I never felt in danger except maybe from my dog barking.
[6:46]But yeah, but it was really fun to do that.
[6:51]With your heart racing when you're writing that?
[6:53]Yeah, I mean, I feel really good
[6:55]if I'm getting my heart racing
[6:57]or Rob, my husband says that I get this like smirk on my face.
[7:02]If I'm, you probably do too.
[7:04]Like if I'm writing something where the reader's gonna think
[7:08]I'm going to the right but I'm really going to the left.
[7:10]I'm like, you're like, you're doing it again, aren't you?
[7:13]Well, I love the tension that you created
[7:16]because it's obviously in and of itself something dangerous.
[7:19]But you had the father character who lived that life
[7:22]and knew the dangers and I was on his side the whole way.
[7:24]Like no, don't do that, don't do that.
[7:26]He's right, listen to your father
[7:28]even though their relationship was tricky.
[7:30]So bravo to that, I love that moment and I love that sequence.
[7:35]Okay, so I wanna know more, I'm a tennis fan
[7:38]and you have these two characters in the tennis world
[7:42]and up and coming and the sort of veteran pro.
[7:44]And so I'm wondering why you picked women's tennis.
[7:48]What is it about that world?
[7:49]You know, tennis I feel like is not like
[7:52]the big commercial popular sport that's in everyone's face
[7:56]like maybe soccer and basketball.
[7:58]So you went a little bit outside.
[8:00]So tell me why tennis.
[8:01]You know, that's an interesting take
[8:04]because growing up on the East Coast and I grew up
[8:08]really close to the US Open like a half hour away.
[8:12]The US Open was huge.
[8:14]I mean, tennis was insanely big and prominent
[8:18]and I would say one of the top sports in our sphere.
[8:25]I think tennis is one of the loneliest sports in the world.
[8:30]You're out there by yourself and if you're playing singles
[8:34]and you can't even communicate with your coach.
[8:38]You know, you're so alone under these lights
[8:43]under this world stage and you're young.
[8:47]A lot of these people are so young.
[8:50]And then you're on tour with your competitors.
[8:56]So how do you navigate friendships within that?
[9:01]And then on top of that, you literally are making money
[9:04]based on how well you do.
[9:06]Your prize increases as you advance,
[9:11]which is so different than a lot of professional sports.
[9:14]So if there were ever a pressure cooker, right?
[9:19]It's tennis and I just thought that was such
[9:23]an amazing setting for a story.
[9:29]And also I think there's a glamour to tennis
[9:32]at least on the, on the, at the US Open
[9:37]and at Wimbledon and at these big events that is different.
[9:42]It's like a scene, it's a happening.
[9:44]You know, now that you're talking about it,
[9:45]I definitely felt that isolation and loneliness
[9:49]and how it felt very natural.
[9:53]The fact that these two women competitors
[9:56]would be drawn to each other, but also repelled by each other.
[10:00]like one has only one could win at the end of the day and you're right across
[10:04]the net from that person. Yeah and there was definitely felt that tension but I
[10:08]did feel the isolation and the loneliness and also there's a bit of like I
[10:14]felt like I didn't know who to trust like and I you writing a kidnapping
[10:19]mystery so I guess that was by design but do you think that that's part of
[10:24]being in that world even when there's not a kidnapping like a yeah
[10:29]distrustful feelings between either the competitors themselves or with a
[10:34]coach I think there's a lot of distrust in tennis I think that you look at the
[10:44]real professional world of tennis and one coach goes to coach another player and
[10:50]that's a huge like terrible thing like to you know imagine like your spouse
[10:59]is now dating the person you're you know next to like it's it's a really big deal
[11:07]and that happens all the time and then there's the pressure of a parent coaching
[11:13]a child more relative and the salary and the intensity and that can be
[11:18]very lonely and then you know is it a real friendship if you're like playing
[11:24]someone you know free for your future I mean I'll tell you like Venus
[11:30]well I interview Venus Williams a bunch of times and I remember the first time
[11:36]she beat Serena in like the quarterfinals and I talked to Serena right
[11:42]after I'm sorry I talked to Venus right after and Venus was so concerned about
[11:49]Serena like you know she's like I I really wanted to win but at the same time
[11:57]I'm like come on Serena you could have done better than that you know I know
[12:00]you know how to do that so so it was interesting because there's siblings and
[12:04]they had each others back somewhat but yet they're competing you know so so
[12:09]it's just it's a very sticky sticky yeah environment where if you're on a
[12:15]team sport even though you might be competing say for a position or to
[12:20]start you you can be a forward like say in soccer because my son plays soccer
[12:27]and be best friends with the goalie and know you're never going to because
[12:32]he's best friends with goalie you can never you're never going to be in
[12:36]competition mm-hmm I love you can have some friends yeah okay the other thing
[12:42]that I was found so intriguing that you that you do so well as you're threading
[12:47]through the novel is how Kate works her sources right so I'm fascinated by the
[12:54]relationship between a reporter and a source because your friends sometimes
[13:00]you have to trick them sometimes you need to lead them down a road to get them
[13:03]to say something and some things you're going to keep to yourself and uses
[13:09]leverage later but some things you need to know right now because you're
[13:13]whatever your network needs needs a story right and you navigate that so well
[13:19]with the interplay of sources and I just wanted you to talk more about sources
[13:22]because I feel like it's such a natural parallel for a detective and a
[13:28]reporter because we they both have sources but it's different so how is it
[13:32]the same and how is it different yeah sources for stories I actually have a
[13:42]really funny story about it when I was reporting all the male reporters would
[13:49]take people out to play golf like FBI agents and all these people to kind of
[13:55]build the relationship because a lot of it is based on trust because the
[13:59]source wants to know if they share a story with you will you keep their name
[14:03]out of the paper or out of television like can they trust you to report just
[14:09]what they say is on the record and no more so I'm like all right I have to
[14:16]learn golf so Joyce and Marvin take me my parents take we all go to Orlando
[14:22]for the weekend and do a golf camp and like I'm doing so well and then I
[14:29]go back and this FBI agent who I had told about it I'm like okay I'm ready to
[14:34]go click off with you I go out there the bull never leaves the ground I played
[14:39]mini golf like and I think because he felt so sorry for me he gave me a story
[14:45]like I was that pathetic but but it's really a trust issue and I guess in the
[14:52]book with Kate to it's really a trust issue and a relationship issue
[15:00]You just kind of see and in TV there's the element that's a little bit
[15:09]icky of are they using you to get their story out there, you know, and
[15:18]especially in politics because I did cover politics and news before I
[15:25]covered for now. I didn't know that. Yeah, I was a TV reporter for NBC in
[15:31]New York City and and then you feel like you want to break a story, but is it
[15:39]also like part of someone else's agenda? With Kate, I say I get to live my
[15:45]best life with Kate because there's no icky-ness with it. Like she wants to
[15:51]solve a crime. She wants to save a life. So she's doing it for such good
[16:00]reasons that are different sometimes when it's more gray as a reporter. But she
[16:06]also has a deadline, right? She also has to put a story together because she's
[16:09]doing a job that she's getting paid for. But I feel like Kate and I did this
[16:14]very intentionally always puts the, um, puts solving the crime or protecting a
[16:26]friend before the story. I don't think she ever sacrifices her moral compass
[16:34]about her career to get further in a, in a story. That's definitely, I felt
[16:41]that. Yeah. And I was very conscious to write it that way. That was important
[16:45]to me, which is I think part of the reason she's sustainable for three books
[16:49]because she does have such a strong moral focus. Yeah. And she's so brave. That's
[16:54]interesting to say like for her to hear you say that she did the things that, you
[16:58]know, she was brave where you were. I wasn't. Yeah. Okay. I'm still obsessed
[17:04]with the reporting. I want to know more. Tell us your favorite event that you
[17:11]covered as a reporter or your least favorite or both. What did you love to
[17:16]come? When they said you're assigned to, you were like, yes, or you're like, Oh, no. I
[17:21]love covering the US Open, which this is about. I love covering on March
[17:26]Madness. And I'd always get assigned to Duke, which was really fun. Um, and I
[17:32]love to because college students are so, um, sweet. Like they're just not
[17:40]jaded yet. And they're, they're like, so excited about everything, which was
[17:46]really nice. But I had so many great moments. I mean, in spring training, I
[17:50]covered, um, Yankees and I don't know. It's Roger's town. So I'm sorry, but I
[17:55]covered the Yankees and Derek Cheeter and, like, Renee Williams is there with
[17:59]his guitar. And, um, yeah, just like a lot of Joe Torrey told us my husband and
[18:06]I were a go for our, um, honeymoon. Um, the lot of human moments, like Chuck
[18:11]Knoblock was having something called the yips back in the day. He couldn't
[18:15]throw, um, any standing there. And he's like, yeah, I know I'm not having
[18:19]good time, but, um, you just got engaged. And, um, what shape is that ring?
[18:24]Cause I'm about to get engaged. And like, I don't know what shape to get. Oh, my
[18:28]fiance. So it's interesting to see that. And then some of the worst moments, um,
[18:35]Sean probably knows which moment I'm going to, um, I covered the US open golf.
[18:40]And, um, and the most important thing for me to do was to get an interview with
[18:49]the person that won the US open. And that was going to be, that was pain
[18:55]steward, um, was a lovely, lovely person. And, um, and the public relations
[19:03]person really didn't like women. And I was like one of the only women there. He
[19:09]didn't know me from anything. And he kept promising, even though he gave me
[19:14]no other interviews, I would get the interview that everyone else got with
[19:18]pain steward. And literally he took him from ESPN to CNN to stations you never
[19:25]heard of that had like one person who's a viewer. And I'm at Fox Sports. Like, we're
[19:31]one of the two biggest places as an ESPN. And he kept avoiding me. And, um, my
[19:39]camera man and camera operators are very important in my books. Um, it's like,
[19:44]at least you're not getting the interview. Like he was leading him away down
[19:48]that I wasn't going to be allowed to go to out. And he's like, do something. And I'm
[19:53]like, pain, please do the interview. And, um, and, um, and
[20:00]And the guy has his hand on Payne's arm pulling him away from me.
[20:05]And Payne's like, no, I want to do this interview.
[20:09]And he comes back and he saves me.
[20:12]I mean, I literally thought I would get fired without that interview.
[20:16]It was like before you could be like, okay, bad behavior, you should get fired.
[20:21]You know, I really thought I was going to lose my job.
[20:24]And Payne saved me.
[20:27]He saved me.
[20:28]He saved my job.
[20:29]I never confronted the guy, never told anyone about it.
[20:35]Yeah.
[20:36]But I had moments like that, you know, a bunch of moments like that.
[20:40]I always feel like when I watched the post game press conferences and, you know, now I
[20:45]feel like, and we were the same age, right?
[20:48]We were, it was a different age for women in those positions.
[20:51]Yeah, yeah.
[20:52]Now, certain teams always ask the woman first because they know that they're getting neglected
[20:56]or if they've been historically neglected in these situations for so long.
[21:00]So the first question, you know, when you see the head coach up there with his quarterback
[21:03]or whatever, and they asked the woman first and we've come a long way, right?
[21:07]Like it's changed or but it hasn't.
[21:09]I mean, like not, I'm not sure because when I was working in sports, you had your
[21:19]a token woman at all of the major stations in front of the camera, but there were so many
[21:27]men behind the scenes.
[21:29]And I've been away from it for a long time, but I would be shocked if it's equal, maybe
[21:34]it's a little more women, but I would be surprised by how much and some of that could
[21:39]be a choice, you know, like that less women want to do it.
[21:42]I don't really know, but I don't, I don't know how far we've really come.
[21:49]I feel like I'm seeing more women, certainly in studio now that I've never seen for sure for
[21:53]traditionally, you know, it's been three men and now it's two men and a woman.
[21:59]Okay, you were right, you mentioned just now and I've forgotten about your cameraman,
[22:04]but he is a big part.
[22:05]Like what's that relationship like if you're, does he's like your work husband?
[22:08]Is it always the same cameraman and does he help you?
[22:12]Does he find shots for you?
[22:14]Does he does he sneak his way in?
[22:15]Like what is that relationship like?
[22:17]Yeah, you live and die by your camera operator and sometimes you don't always have the same
[22:26]one in real life and sometimes it's great and sometimes it's awful.
[22:33]But when I went to NBC, I was really lucky to have this guy, Carmine, and Phil is loosely based
[22:42]on Carmine. I don't have never, I haven't talked to Carmine in like 20 years, so if he's watching
[22:49]Carmine and he would just take care of me like like he would make sure the sun's facing the
[22:57]right way and like my clothing was okay and he would fix my hair and he would just like just
[23:07]really take out the extra stops to make sure that everything was okay and we worked, you know,
[23:13]he was so helpful because when I went to NBC, I was really a baby. I got there so quickly,
[23:20]it took me a very long time to get on camera, but then once I did, I went from news 12 Long Island,
[23:25]which was where I started to NBC very quickly, too quickly, probably. So without his help,
[23:32]I probably would have crashed and burned. But there are also times when you're with the worst
[23:38]camera men and I was stuck covering spring training once like that. So when the car every day
[23:43]going to a different spring training and it's really hard and I mean I had a colleague at a
[23:50]different station in New York and I remember going into the bathroom and she was hysterically
[23:56]because of the camera operator. So, you know, it's all different things and and it is your
[24:04]work spouse because you're like dancing almost, you know, you really have to work together.
[24:12]Yeah, I mean, the world is going to see you how he frames you and
[24:17]literally the light right is so important because we all know how we look when we're backlit
[24:22]and there's like things on any like blemishes or whatever, like shooting up on you is like the
[24:27]kiss of death. Right? And so yeah, okay, thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting.
[24:33]Yeah, it's really interesting. Okay, in your book, the coaches are actually, they're front and center
[24:41]in the book, the coaches. And you talked about how the relationship is fraught, like your coach could
[24:49]leave you or you never really know the true motivations of your coach and your coach
[24:53]could be secretly trying to poach that other athlete and it and it does happen, right? Oh, yeah,
[24:58]it happens a lot. Yeah. So,
[25:00]curious if that came from, I'm curious as a soccer mom, like what your experience has been
[25:07]with coaches does I'm a gymnastics mom and now a track of field mom and I've learned a lot
[25:13]about coaches, I've had many coaches now through two kids in many sports and tell me if the coaches
[25:21]that you've experienced in your children's sports have warmed their way and traits from them
[25:27]have warmed their way into some of your coaches characters because they're really well-drawn
[25:30]your coaches character. Thank you. Maybe in dangerous play which was about soccer, there would be more
[25:38]things I took from that. I did a lot of research for close call besides having gone to
[25:46]covered, the US Open, if anyone has hasn't read Andre Agassi's biography, autobiography open,
[25:59]it's one of the best books I've ever read and he really is open a little bit about all of that.
[26:08]I mean it's such a good book and there's also a lot of shows about the different
[26:15]relationships but I don't think that what I saw in soccer translated to what I saw in tennis
[26:25]because tennis is an individual sport and where one coach you're probably want more attention
[26:33]as a team player and you want your coach more focused on you. In tennis you're probably
[26:39]if anything your coach is hyper focused on you and too focused on you and there's so many
[26:45]parents that are coaches like the William sisters and and not that any of this is based on them
[26:52]because I think that was a pretty good relationship but there's some I mean Stephie Graff's father
[26:58]coached her and I think she had a restraining order after that. Oh my gosh. Yeah yeah like so many
[27:05]so um yeah and Agassi like talks about like all the troubles with that so it's a very common thing
[27:12]and um and it's a very different dynamic than team sports. Yeah I can't imagine a parent coaching
[27:20]their own kid. Have you ever had seen that in your sports? Like parent coaching their kid
[27:25]and are they awful? They can be awful right? It can be a weird dynamic um I think it uh it really
[27:34]it depends it some uh some parents are uh very um on their you know like they treat their kid
[27:41]differently and they might be um a lot more tough on their kid or it could be the opposite sometimes
[27:46]where they're like extremely generous to their kid and not knowing what else in their team so
[27:51]I've seen I've seen move. Yeah that's interesting. Okay so I'm really in awe one thing you know
[27:59]I write standalone novels because after I take a character through 80,000 words I'm like okay
[28:06]she ark she did her thing she learned her lesson I'm moving on but you sustain growth over three
[28:14]books and maybe a fourth and there's a lot of family dynamics so when you set out to write the very
[28:20]first one did you know that there were going to be multiple books with this character like did you
[28:25]sell to when you were got your boy in deals saying this is cake green this is where I'm starting
[28:30]with her this is where she's going to go did you have it pre mapped out all of those
[28:35]mean this family stuff is the stuff that's really sticky and emotional like did you know? I didn't
[28:42]but what happened was my agent sent it out as a standalone novel okay and then the editor
[28:50]the acquiring editor um who decides whether or not they're going to take you is like could
[28:54]this be a series so my agent who is the best in the world um is like okay you have an hour
[29:04]she knows you can write give me a bunch of different ideas so it could be a series so I wrote a bunch
[29:10]of ideas down she sent it out and she wanted a series and so then we did that so I knew it was
[29:18]going to be a three book I mean I knew it was going to be two books and if the books were popular
[29:24]and got sold that I would get another contract and um and then I talked I phoned a friend we both
[29:32]have an author friend tessa wegert who um is my like go to author friend for things and um because
[29:41]I didn't even know you back then or you know I'll be you know you're all trying to alternate you'll be
[29:46]the you'll tag in and she writes series and she really talked me about how in the second series second
[29:52]book in your series you want to dig deep into the past of your protagonist and dangerous play does
[30:00]that because it goes back the murder in soccer goes back to Kate's past.
[30:07]So, and then the third one, this is really just like a straight thriller, I think.
[30:14]It feels different selling books.
[30:17]So when you sell your first book, you have to write first, right, because the publisher
[30:19]doesn't know if you can write and you have to give them a finished book.
[30:23]And then they go, okay, here's some money, go write another one.
[30:25]And it feels, doesn't it feel completely different when you're writing A on a deadline
[30:30]and B with an expectation?
[30:31]You actually know what you're doing, which when we start out, we're finding our way, right?
[30:37]I think that it's so different.
[30:40]That experience writing for a deadline and writing with that expectation.
[30:45]Did you find you were getting like finding your way as you went?
[30:51]I remember like, again, Tessa, everything goes back to Tessa, telling me the second
[30:59]I knew I got a contract, work on book two, work on book two, things are going to happen
[31:04]so quickly and you're going to be so busy because everything's new to you, even like doing
[31:11]an Instagram post or whatever else, it's not going to be second nature.
[31:15]So you really need to put your time in now, like get to work.
[31:20]And my second book, I know a lot of people say your second book is your hardest.
[31:26]My third book was hardest for me because I was going into Kate's past and I had thought
[31:34]about that.
[31:36]This book, I actually had a couple of false starts and I had a harder time with.
[31:42]All the proud of it now, but yeah, I don't know, how was your second book versus your
[31:47]first book?
[31:48]My second book was a disaster.
[31:49]My second book, okay, my first book, like I said, I wrote it and I was like, oh, this
[31:54]is easy.
[31:55]Anybody can do this.
[31:56]It just came to me and I didn't really care and I didn't know that it was going to sell
[32:00]and I got the same thing that you did is like, yeah, we'll buy this, but we want another
[32:05]one for you because if they're going to develop an author, they want to know you got more
[32:08]in you and they're investing in you.
[32:10]And so I did this thing where I was like, well, I'm on a deadline.
[32:14]I have six months to write this and we're editing, right?
[32:16]We're editing that first book because it's never, it's not done when you give it to them.
[32:20]They want to see like they want to grow it, which is great because we need it to grow.
[32:26]But also you're starting a new book from scratch and the timeline is really tight.
[32:30]And so I did this thing called an outline, I'm sure you all have heard of them and I was
[32:35]like, okay, well, I need to be responsible and write to an outline and so I figured out what
[32:39]the book was while I was editing like in the cracks, I had the outline.
[32:44]And then I wrote to that outline eventually and the book did not work because I was so,
[32:48]I was so overly concerned with the time constraint and I thought, no, I need to commit
[32:54]to the outline and my husband read it.
[32:56]I had it done about, I don't know, six, seven weeks before the due date and he read it
[33:02]and he was like, this is not a book.
[33:04]And I was like, oh, I don't think I'm an outliner, right?
[33:08]So the books are about 80,000 words.
[33:11]I threw in the last 70,000, I liked my setup.
[33:14]I liked the first 10,000 and I wrote 2,500, 3,000 words a day from an honest place from
[33:21]my heart, like what would the character do next?
[33:23]And I would write until like the sun went down and I had to feed my children and then
[33:27]I was like, okay, a wake up with the most interesting, suspenseful, exciting thing, I can
[33:34]ask my character to face today, right?
[33:37]And I just wrote and to me now it's my favorite book and it's wild, it's so like unpredictable.
[33:44]Yeah.
[33:45]It didn't end how I thought it was going to end and I was so scared when I did the
[33:48]ending because I was like, people aren't going to like that, it's too risky and I was
[33:51]like, forget it, I'm taking the risk and I'm so glad I did and so my second one became
[33:56]my favorite one because then I knew when I wrote it in six weeks, I was like, I can
[34:00]do this.
[34:02]And then the third one, then I kind of just trusted it and even now I'm in my 8th book
[34:09]right now and what, 15,000 words in and I don't really know where it's going and I say
[34:15]my little mantra like trust the process, trust your process, no, you'll come up with
[34:19]something.
[34:20]I'm more of a plotter, I know my ending, I know the roadmap, I need to kind of know the
[34:28]breadcrumbs and like this, this is not an outline but I need to know in each chapter
[34:37]what the red herrings are and what the breadcrumbs are and the suspects and that kind
[34:44]of thing just for that stuff but it's really interesting, like the thriller community
[34:50]is really split.
[34:51]I found more people who do it my way just like Laura Dave says, you're driving your car,
[34:56]how far can your headlights see.
[34:57]You just write to that point and that's your work day.
[35:00]Yeah, and same with David Baldacci who like cornered in an elevator. He's written what 77 78 books and he's like
[35:07]How can you write an outline you don't know what your characters are gonna do to you start writing them?
[35:11]You don't know them yet. It's the it's the process that would get you know
[35:14]So that's at least a jewel the same way I spoke to her at her book event
[35:17]Yeah, I think what it is is just like people are different types of learners
[35:23]summer tactile summer visual
[35:26]People choose different pathways to write the legal book who I saw the other night
[35:34]Who's written what
[35:36]70 80 books we should do question oh, we're gonna do questions. Yeah, Lee Goldberg is an outline. He's like, yeah
[35:42]You can't just it's irresponsible to write without an outline. He got kind of mad at me. Okay. Um
[35:47]Yeah, we should open a question
[35:50]Who has a question because I have more questions. Yeah, yeah
[36:03]Which I would have been wrong
[36:05]I already know that okay
[36:07]But I it kind of relates to what you guys were talking about like did you decide who did it before you wrote the rest of it?
[36:14]Like do you start from the end and then work your way?
[36:17]Yeah, it's a good question. So great question for me. Yes, I I decide the sport like the setting
[36:27]The crime so I knew it was gonna be a kidnapping and then I write down the suspects, right?
[36:34]So I may not even have them developed enough to say more than boyfriend or uncle or
[36:41]and
[36:43]friend and then I I think what
[36:47]Their connection what their secrets are because I love writing about secrets exposing secrets what their secrets are and
[36:56]And what they connect to the crime and then I decide as I'm kind of
[37:02]Outlining that or putting that out. I use a spreadsheet
[37:06]Like and I color coded red herrings like the those are in different shades of red and then the real person who did it
[37:13]is blue and
[37:16]And then I do decide who did it why they did it and
[37:21]kind of the different points of of
[37:27]How the reader will learn now I will say as I'm writing there will be
[37:33]Ships like 20% shifts or I'll add another suspense element. I'm doing that right now in my fourth book and I'm finding
[37:40]I'm really leaning into like
[37:43]Messing with the reader more than I plan to in the in the outline
[37:49]but my general map is there
[37:53]So so I do
[37:56]That's like that's my goal if I messed with the reader and look my my books are I think are
[38:02]plot heavy like I lean into plot
[38:06]And that's very important to me and the kind of the the twists and the turns of the plot
[38:12]Yeah, good. I'm glad I messed with you. Yeah, they say happy any other questions
[38:19]Yes, Sean
[38:21]One of my favorite things about all your books specifically this one is how immersive it is and I've loved this no more about the setting
[38:29]What kind of research he did into?
[38:31]Just kind of taking us to the US. Oh, yeah
[38:35]So I obviously covered the US open
[38:40]which was
[38:42]Really a fun thing to do
[38:45]But I did do research in it. I felt like I needed to go back to the US open now that I was writing about it to kind of see
[38:54]What it was like from a crime fiction writer's brain
[38:58]So and it's totally different so I take my younger son Ryan
[39:02]And did you ever meet Ryan one time? Okay, they surprised me, but our age friends with my older son. They went to college together
[39:14]so
[39:16]so I went with Ryan and we're at in the outer court, you know at the very beginning and
[39:24]And we're watching a match and all of a sudden. I'm like oh my god
[39:28]I'll be right back and you know
[39:30]I'm running out the ushers, you know the ushers are not happy with you if you make any noise
[39:34]It's really bad and I'm like rushing out and I'm chasing something down the concourse take a photo
[39:41]I come back. I'm like Ryan. Oh my god. Look what I found and he's like
[39:46]Why did you take a picture of a giant refrigeration unit?
[39:50]And I'm like isn't this the perfect place to hide a body?
[39:53]You know, so it's like it's like you really see things in a different way and then like
[40:00]Then later that day we were at Arthur S. Stadium which you know is the main
[40:04]stadium and Ryan's like looking down at the match and I'm looking up at these
[40:08]like cameras on wires I'm like well what if one falls you know so you're just
[40:13]like looking at things so differently so so I do try to go back to every
[40:19]sporting event you know whether Madison's work hard in their Yankee Stadium
[40:22]and view it through different eyes than a reporter's eyes. That's so
[40:27]interesting. I mean I just wrote a book on an airplane. You want to know the
[40:31]deep dive. I do. I'm flying tomorrow. I do know all the things work. It's a
[40:38]wonderful book. I don't want to hear about that because yeah.
[40:42]Do you go as their access in other places like do you get access to
[40:47]Milwaukee rooms or places that are available in the public? Oh yeah so when I
[40:50]was reporting I was always in the locker rooms. You know it's so stamped in my
[40:56]brain being in locker rooms like I mean because I was a lot literally I was
[41:02]the person who did the reports after the games so my job was to interview the
[41:07]people in the locker rooms and and tell those those stories and you go into
[41:15]locker rooms actually before games a lot of the times. I mean it's a locker room
[41:23]but also but it's like the next locker room and Yankees locker room so
[41:28]they're in pretty good shape like they're like think Ted Lasso kind of you
[41:34]know they're actually you know they're actually like very clean and nice a
[41:43]lot of the locker rooms but the elevator at Madison Square Garden that they
[41:48]said the reporters down and it has like this big dent and you always are like oh my
[41:52]god this elevator is not gonna make it it's like pretty scary. Yes right. So now
[42:00]that you've sold the series to be made for television yeah does that affect your
[42:06]writing process there because you've seen the mount you've been to the mount
[42:10]top it doesn't affect the way you write your next book because you're thinking
[42:14]like sell this or I could sell that or you're thinking visually in a different
[42:18]way. You mean my new series? Yeah well or whatever you write next and then further
[42:22]Mirror J. Blige bought your book. Yeah as I look around the room I think nobody
[42:27]here is African American does that change the way you think about the characters
[42:31]as well or are you thinking that maybe look like you're writing in a different way
[42:36]because you think somebody could play this part versus not play this part
[42:39]because you've been there you've done it you know right I'm just sort of wondering
[42:43]about the process in your head. In my head well to the first part of your question I
[42:49]I think I always write visually and that's because I was a TV reporter so I
[42:56]I always see a video in my brain as I write and I really think it's because of my
[43:04]decades of writing television and writing writing the copy to kind of complement the
[43:14]video that goes with it and that's I assumed that's how everyone was but then when
[43:20]I talk to people a lot it's not but I literally see like the video and I just think
[43:26]that's how my brain works and I intentionally created a very diverse cast of characters
[43:38]in my book. No it to me it's about the book and if something happens it happens
[43:55]and I'll be very grateful. I'm really most concerned with the fact that you know Mary
[44:01]J. Blige is such a powerhouse and such an incredible person and star that for her
[44:10]to lend her name or her interest to my work is like amazing and you know I'm just happy
[44:20]to have that but it doesn't change how I write I mean when I first started writing writing
[44:25]in the present tense which is what I write was not popular. A lot of people that was
[44:31]really just a YA thing and a lot most people wrote in the past and now actually the present
[44:36]tense is very popular now but that's just how I write like like I'll change a lot of things
[44:42]within editors like I think this needs editing or I think that needs or this character there
[44:47]are certain things that would take the joy out of writing for me and writing in a different
[44:52]tense would do that so first and foremost I'm writing because every day I write is
[45:00]a better day than a day I don't write, you know, I don't know if you feel the same way.
[45:05]And so I have to check a couple of boxes for myself for that to be true.
[45:14]Are you writing this book for the NBC show?
[45:20]Probably not.
[45:21]I'm a consulting producer, which I'm very excited about, but, you know, I hope what that
[45:31]means and I know most scripts are written in collaboration and well you know this more
[45:36]than me because you've written screenplays and stuff, but, you know, whatever they want.
[45:47]I'm like I would love to be involved in some collaborations, but also I'm very lucky
[45:55]like Debra Martin Chase is involved and she's with the equalizer and Liz Reedlander
[46:01]who did the rookie and, you know, I have such a, you know, such phenomenally talented
[46:08]people tied to it that that if they would like something for me great and if they wouldn't
[46:16]that's also great.
[46:17]Did you tie them in or do they, I have a film agent, yeah, so the film agent got that.
[46:28]Yeah.
[46:29]Yes.
[46:30]If I walked into this bookstore and I was looking for a mystery, yeah, and I look at your
[46:38]book and I like the cover, yeah, I have a visual person.
[46:42]I think if there were two books and I didn't like the cover on it would probably not
[46:47]forget.
[46:50]Would they want me to start at book number one or if I just picked up that book and walked
[46:57]out of it would I say, wow, this is great now start going back in your books.
[47:03]That's a really good question.
[47:07]You got a check plus.
[47:10]You can read each of my books as a standalone and you can start with close call for
[47:14]sure.
[47:15]Definitely.
[47:16]Yeah.
[47:17]And then it's really like the filling in the family stuff going back.
[47:23]So you it's not a progression like you need to watch, you know, season one of Game of Thrones
[47:29]before you go to season two.
[47:30]You can start with any of them.
[47:32]Yeah.
[47:33]Absolutely.
[47:34]Sorry.
[47:35]I started with the second one.
[47:36]Oh, you did.
[47:37]Now, I'm going to go back and read the first one because I kind of want to fill in
[47:40]the flanks.
[47:41]Right.
[47:42]What did I miss back there?
[47:43]Because you reference, you know, what happened back there.
[47:45]So now I need to know.
[47:46]So we can do it that way.
[47:48]It's not normal.
[47:49]But thank you.
[47:50]I appreciate it.
[47:51]Yeah.
[47:52]No.
[47:53]Yeah.
[47:54]So it's actually almost seven, do you think we don't want to?
[47:59]We kind of perfectly.
[48:00]Are we good?
[48:01]Do you want us to?
[48:02]Yeah.
[48:04]Okay.
[48:05]Would anyone have one more question?
[48:06]Yes.
[48:07]I was going to ask once you released a book and read these, how do other people read it?
[48:12]Does it take on a new meaning for you and you discovered things about it that you hadn't
[48:16]really considered before or were you writing?
[48:18]I love that question.
[48:19]That's a great question.
[48:20]You mean during the editing process, like sending it to a developmental editor and or when
[48:25]it's published published?
[48:27]I would say, but just for me, if I'm making some music, it means something to me that
[48:34]I'm always nervous to show it to other people because it's just different from outside
[48:39]looking in.
[48:40]And sometimes other people can really help you develop an idea or it just means something
[48:46]different to them when they experience it.
[48:49]Yeah.
[48:50]It really is a great question.
[48:52]But before I got a contract and I'm curious what you think too for yourself, getting feedback
[49:00]could be really painful because I was so insecure and the learning curve is really steep.
[49:11]Once I got the contract and I'm working in collaboration with developmental editors and
[49:16]my publisher does a lot of rounds of developmental edits where they read and like you get
[49:22]serious notes and they're discussing everything.
[49:26]I felt so grateful to the developmental editors.
[49:30]My book is so much better for the edits that I got and also for the edits I get even
[49:38]before the developmental edits from my agent, who is my first reader.
[49:47]And I'm not a very, I'm not someone who's like very precious about my words or ideas.
[49:51]If someone suggests something and I really think it's going to make it better, I'm like
[49:55]it's real, they were part of the process.
[49:58]And then with reader.
[50:00]I mean, sometimes readers find things in there that I'm like,
[50:07]oh my God, I didn't even think about that.
[50:09]And that's a really cool interaction to find that.
[50:14]So overall, it's been a good experience, I would say.
[50:19]And I do like how it kind of takes on its own life
[50:23]and its own kind of thing.
[50:25]And that's a great question.
[50:27]It's a great question.
[50:27]I'm going to show you something.
[50:29]I worked with the filmmaker, David Lynch.
[50:31]I don't know if you know him from Twin Peaks fame
[50:33]and I was his assistant.
[50:35]And he said to me, once you release it to the world,
[50:39]it's not yours anymore.
[50:41]Everybody's going to look at it through their lens,
[50:43]the same with your music, especially music.
[50:46]If there's a chord progression that takes them back
[50:48]to a time and place in their life, that's theirs.
[50:51]They hear your song, they might think it's sad.
[50:53]Somebody else might think it's revelatory.
[50:56]And it's like once you're done, once it's this,
[50:59]like it's all of yours to decide what it means.
[51:03]And at one time even we were shooting a film
[51:06]and there was a cutaway, he wanted a shot of an owl
[51:10]up in a tree.
[51:11]And I was like, okay, and it was in the script.
[51:13]And I was like, why do you, what's that shot mean?
[51:15]He said, if it doesn't mean anything to you,
[51:18]it doesn't mean anything at all.
[51:19]And I thought it was being glib, right?
[51:22]Like I thought, oh, he just doesn't want to tell me.
[51:24]But now having written and giving these out into the world.
[51:28]And I don't know if you read your reviews.
[51:30]Sometimes we do and they're helpful,
[51:31]sometimes we do in their torture.
[51:33]No, I do.
[51:34]But sometimes people make connections in them.
[51:38]They're like, oh, that meant this.
[51:40]And I'm like, oh, it didn't intend for it
[51:43]to mean that profound thing.
[51:45]But I'm glad you found profound meaning in it.
[51:47]And good for you.
[51:48]So it's not yours anymore.
[51:50]Sorry, it's ours.
[51:52]Okay, I'll share, I'll share.
[51:54]But your, your musician?
[51:56]Oh, yeah.
[51:57]Yeah, good for you.
[51:58]That's exciting.
[51:59]That's magic.
[52:01]And so yes, it's always a,
[52:03]I'm just, if I'm a friend who shows me something narrow,
[52:08]I might interpret it very differently.
[52:10]You notice details about it that they,
[52:11]maybe didn't consider it wasn't the focus for them.
[52:15]And so yeah, I think you can have like collaboration
[52:18]even when it's a, could you just be a friend,
[52:22]you know, or a family, and it's like always a good time
[52:25]sort of, it's like going to the museum,
[52:28]the team of paintings, and they're in like the ideas
[52:31]that you get from you.
[52:33]So I like that.
[52:34]Right. Like some paintings, you look at it.
[52:36]You just feel emotional and you don't know why.
[52:38]And like that's your experience.
[52:40]The painter gave you that gift and, and that's it.
[52:44]And it's not up to the painter how you feel about it.
[52:48]Thank you so much for it.
[52:50]Thank you, everyone, for being here.
[52:53]She really appreciate it.
[52:58]And yeah, I do want to say like thank you to Debbie's bookstore
[53:03]and it's very important, not just for us,
[53:06]but for the bookstore.