Author event! Dr. Morgan Cutlip & Jaime Bronstein
[0:00]this book discussion. Okay, so we're going to start with I'm going to read to you guys Morgan's
[0:09]bio and then we're going to get into some really really good conversations. I obviously read your
[0:16]book and I would say one of the best parts about this book is that you feel like you're talking
[0:23]into your best run and she's so relatable so real and you'll hear from our discussion if you
[0:31]haven't read the book yet just how special of the content is and she's so much wisdom and knowledge.
[0:39]Dr. Morgan caught lit. It's caught lit isn't author and relationship expert. With her down-to-earth
[0:47]style she equips couples and individuals to tackle the trickiest relationship issues,
[0:52]offering fresh perspectives and empowering frameworks. She is experienced and trained in
[0:58]translating psychological theory and research into practical, accessible, and actionable advice.
[1:04]Which she shares with her clients and social media followers at Dr. Morgan Coppett.
[1:09]Through her book's courses podcast and her blog as co-founder of MyLoveThanks.com Morgan
[1:15]earned her master's in human development and family science and her doctorate in counseling
[1:19]psychology. She is the author of Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself and A Better Share.
[1:25]A mother of two incredible kids, wife of her high school sweetheart and lifelong lover of all
[1:30]things relationships. Thank you. This is important. Thank you for that. A lot of you introduce yourself
[1:39]and what you do too. Yeah so I mean this is out you. I've been a dating and relationship therapist
[1:46]and coach for the past over 20 years and I work with singles couples break-ups and
[1:52]divorces. I have a book called Man a Fasting, a podcast called The Love Talk Live and I am also a
[2:00]speaker so I love my job. I can't imagine doing anything else. Okay so let's start with
[2:07]and a very important question. Can you tell us what was the inspiration for this book and a little
[2:14]bit about your history growing up because it's very unique how you grew up with a dad who taught
[2:22]this stuff. Yeah so I really fell in love with a profession of relationships when I was in probably
[2:30]second or third grade which sounds kind of strange but my dad was going back for his PhD at the time
[2:36]and I was in grade school and he would sometimes take me to class with him and we had about an
[2:44]hour drive each way and I would pack like a pretend briefcase with papers and markers and I would
[2:50]sit down at the table during his lectures and I would take notes but on the drive there and a drive
[2:56]home we always played this game where he would give me a hypothetical case. Here's a family,
[3:02]here's what's going on a family, here's a young kid like how would you talk to this kid about
[3:07]what's going on? How would you and so we would work through these sort of cases together. Fast forward
[3:12]my dad started creating relationship education programs before everybody and their brother had
[3:19]an online course and I would travel with him and I would help him or I'd work at his booth or
[3:24]I would sell his books so I kind of grew up in the relationship education field and developed
[3:30]up for it. I knew eventually I wanted to do something to really support women in the relationships
[3:37]but it wasn't clear to me what that looked like. Fast forward to our daughter being born she's now
[3:43]12 her name is Effie and she just threw me for a crazy loop. I went into motherhood thinking I was
[3:51]incredibly prepared and she proved me wrong in every way imaginable did not factor in temperament
[3:59]and so that really became the motivation for my first book because I felt lost in motherhood
[4:04]very disassociated from myself but also I was shocked at how I had a really great marriage. My
[4:12]husband's name is Chad we love each other very much but how quickly I could fall into place of
[4:17]resentment in my own relationship and so it was almost my transition into parenthood in motherhood
[4:23]became the motivation for both books and part of why the resentment grew so quickly was
[4:31]he traveled every week for work and I was the mom who was raised by a super mom so I kind of just
[4:37]took on that persona myself. I asked for nearly nothing from him and he didn't really jump in
[4:43]and before you knew it I felt like I might be doing everything. How come I carry all this?
[4:47]Like how come you don't know what goes to diaper bag and so I knew that if I was struggling with
[4:54]this stuff if we were struggling with this stuff and couples and women everywhere likely are and so
[5:00]And eventually, I could sort of organize tools
[5:04]and practical ways to help people in their relationships,
[5:07]because it's such a being able to navigate
[5:10]the responsibilities of modern family life together
[5:13]and feeling like a team is life-changing,
[5:15]if you do it well.
[5:16]So yeah, I mean, so many people are sitting at home
[5:20]and they are just feeling like they're the only ones
[5:23]going through it, and there's the social media world
[5:26]where they're seeing everybody's perfect lives.
[5:30]And so it's so great that there are books like this.
[5:33]Here's the best.
[5:34]Because people don't feel as alone,
[5:37]and it's very relatable.
[5:39]Can you, with that said, can you tell us
[5:42]why your book stands out?
[5:45]How is it different from other marriage relationship books?
[5:51]How many of you even really know what the mental load is?
[5:55]Little bit?
[5:56]Yeah.
[5:57]Have you heard about it on social media?
[6:00]Mainly?
[6:01]I've heard podcasts.
[6:03]Okay, so you get at least like a more nuanced perspective on it.
[6:07]But when I went, like, set out to write this book,
[6:11]there were a couple of things that were really,
[6:12]really important to me to be a little bit different.
[6:14]Number one, there's an incredible book called Fair Play.
[6:17]I've heard Eve Roddskin here before,
[6:19]like you can't compete with her concept
[6:22]of how you divvy up responsibilities.
[6:24]It's genius, like there's no touching that.
[6:27]But when I actually spoke to her
[6:28]when I was in the process of writing my book,
[6:30]and one of the areas where there was a gap
[6:34]is that a lot of couples really struggle
[6:37]to even have the conversation around the mental load
[6:40]and how you share responsibilities at home
[6:42]because one of the partners gets sort of pensive
[6:45]or they dismiss it or you get into sort of a competition
[6:48]of like these hardship Olympics.
[6:50]And so I wanted to write a book
[6:52]that really helped couples get to a place
[6:54]where they can have the conversation
[6:56]about how they share responsibilities
[6:58]on a regular basis without its spiraling into an argument.
[7:01]So that's one way, it's a little bit different.
[7:05]The other is that if you've heard about social,
[7:07]you know, mental load on social media
[7:09]or even on podcasts, a lot of times it takes one stance,
[7:13]which is that the problem with the mental load
[7:16]is that your partner doesn't do enough.
[7:18]And if they just did more,
[7:20]then things would be better.
[7:22]And that's not untrue and a lot of circumstances.
[7:26]This is not untrue that they do need to step in more
[7:28]than you'd take more initiative.
[7:29]You know, we can talk specifically about what that looks like.
[7:32]But I don't think that's always the most helpful
[7:34]perspective to take because if we're wanting our partners,
[7:38]it's usually the men for being transparent.
[7:41]For wanting them to do more,
[7:43]wanting them to step up to the table a bit more,
[7:45]then they have to be, you know,
[7:47]welcomed into the conversation.
[7:49]You have to be part of that conversation
[7:51]or else it's gonna immediately stir up defensiveness.
[7:54]And so when I set out to write the book,
[7:56]I really wanted to write a book that men would wanna read,
[8:00]that they would enjoy reading.
[8:02]And that positioned the shared enemy in the relationship
[8:06]as the mental load and not one another.
[8:09]Because the reality is that modern family life
[8:12]is so insanely busy.
[8:14]We feel this just like pressure to always be productive.
[8:19]We have the distraction of our devices.
[8:21]We have this competition and this comparison culture
[8:25]that we exist in.
[8:26]And so there's more on our plates
[8:28]than I think is oftentimes feasible to navigate
[8:31]in today's busy world.
[8:32]And so if we can position the shared enemy
[8:36]as the mental load, we can better approach it as a team
[8:38]and collaborate to navigate it successfully as a couple.
[8:42]Well, I'm glad that you brought up the men being involved
[8:46]and having a willingness because I always say that
[8:50]you can make a relationship work,
[8:52]but both parties need to have the willingness.
[8:55]And when I work with couples, you can always tell,
[8:58]like if one person has one foot out the door.
[9:02]So it's nice because the way that you wrote this book
[9:05]makes it, like I said, so relatable
[9:08]and it makes it not feel like work.
[9:11]And I think that's problem because a lot of,
[9:14]sometimes this guy, sometimes girls are just friends,
[9:15]but a lot of times it's the man who,
[9:18]I mean, a lot of men have issues with empathy.
[9:21]They don't even know how to practice empathy
[9:23]or what it is.
[9:24]And so you got to take a step back.
[9:27]So I love that your book makes it just easy.
[9:32]It doesn't feel like it's like homework to do.
[9:34]Yeah, and I was actually, I checked my DMs
[9:37]before I came in here tonight
[9:39]and I had a message from a man
[9:40]and he goes, I'm a truck driver
[9:43]and I'm on my second time through your book.
[9:45]And I absolutely love it.
[9:46]And so it's been really cool to hear from men
[9:50]and I get messages pretty regularly from men
[9:53]that they find a book really approachable.
[9:55]They have a lot of aha moments
[9:56]and helps them take more initiative
[9:58]to step into their relationship.
[10:00]And the work in that relationship, which is what I think a lot of us women often want
[10:04]as men to like actively participate in improving the relationship.
[10:09]And it's about showing, not just telling, it's about actually taking the action.
[10:15]As you were saying, that I just looked at the ground, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
[10:20]There was a challenge.
[10:23]Yeah, well, that may be men are like, oh, okay, so I see you're going to be talking about
[10:27]great sex. So maybe men both are drawn to that.
[10:31]So that was intentional.
[10:33]Good.
[10:34]Like, in full transparency, again, I was a secret agenda.
[10:37]I want to write a book that will, that men will read that they will participate in.
[10:41]And if I have to put sex on the cover and I know that's stereotypical and separate
[10:44]bits and sometimes it doesn't, I do it and it's not false advertising.
[10:48]There's an entire chapter and like it's what sucks out.
[10:52]But I heard from this woman right after my book came out and she goes, I was not being
[10:57]passive aggressive, but I had to run errands.
[11:00]So I got your book in the mail, I unpacked it, I put it on the kitchen counter and I went
[11:04]out and ran my errands because I come home, find my husband at the counter and he used
[11:09]three quarters of the way done.
[11:10]Oh my God.
[11:11]He was waiting.
[11:12]Thank you.
[11:13]Making a book for that part.
[11:15]That looks, yeah.
[11:16]Yeah.
[11:17]So it, whatever brings you to the table.
[11:20]Whatever.
[11:21]Yeah.
[11:22]So let's talk about, so in, in your book, there is a story and I call it the Socks story.
[11:31]Can you please, you know, high level, just tell the Socks story, it's about to try
[11:37]out the hubs because there's, I read it and I was like, this is brilliant, brilliant
[11:45]what you did with the Socks story.
[11:48]So tell us, tell us the Socks story.
[11:51]So let me set it up and my poor husband is like every story in this book, but he agreed
[11:58]he signed off on it.
[11:59]So when I wrote the book, the meat of the book is four areas that you're supposed to share
[12:06]in your relationship.
[12:07]And so one of them is perspective, one of them is expectations and then it's ownership
[12:11]and accountability.
[12:12]So this is in the ownership section and something that's not talked about much in
[12:17]podcast and social media is how even the default partner, even the partner who carries
[12:24]the majority of the tasks at home or in family life has some responsibility for how they
[12:29]show up to the relationship.
[12:31]So I have five behaviors that backfire and what the behaviors that backfire do are basically
[12:37]the things that you might do that might shut down participation.
[12:39]Like micro managing or criticizing some of this stuff might just shut down participation
[12:44]and ultimately create a problem for you.
[12:47]So for wanting to lighten the load, you've got to have some willingness and some positivity
[12:51]and the relationship.
[12:52]So this one is called personalization and this always gets an interesting blend of comments
[12:59]when I share this story on social media.
[13:03]But personalization is essentially how we make meaning around the things that a partner
[13:08]does do, doesn't do, does say, doesn't say.
[13:11]And there's an asterisk on this one and I'll explain that.
[13:14]But the story is my husband travels every single week for work.
[13:19]He has, for as long as I can remember, it's just part of our dynamic.
[13:22]And for the longest time, he would come home from work and he would take his socks off
[13:26]and for some reason I don't know whether I was black socks and he would just toss them
[13:30]on the floor.
[13:31]So I would find them, like, next to the couch, something to find them on the coffee table.
[13:35]Once I found them on the counter, which I was discussing, I don't know why they're on the counter,
[13:40]but I find them all over the house.
[13:42]So I have a decision here, because I am in charge of how I create this storyline around
[13:49]the socks.
[13:51]And I could say, every time I grab them and I pick them up, I could say, here he is thinking
[13:56]I am his maid, like, must be nice, having someone follow you around the house, picking
[14:01]up your crap, cleaning it up, you know, I could, I actually posted this one since some
[14:06]ladies, like, I would pile all his socks under his pillow and then eventually he'll
[14:11]start putting them away.
[14:12]And I was like, like, how nice to be married to, you know, who does that?
[14:17]I don't want him to do stuff like that to me.
[14:20]But I could create this entire narrative.
[14:24]He's selfish.
[14:25]He doesn't respect me.
[14:26]He doesn't care that I try to keep the house clean.
[14:29]But I have a decision around this.
[14:30]And for the most part, here's the asterisks, my husband is incredibly respectful.
[14:34]He picks up after himself, he's not like a guy who's disrespectful to me at all.
[14:40]If you were, then we'd have a conversation about the socks, but he's not.
[14:44]So every time I pick up those socks, I have made the decision and honestly, he saw
[14:49]this reel.
[14:50]So now he doesn't leave the socks out anymore, because he didn't read my caption.
[14:54]But it's hats now.
[14:55]So every time I grab a hat or I grab a pair of socks, what I say to my—
[15:00]is I'm so glad my husband is home because normally he's not and I want my
[15:05]husband to live in our home comfortably not walking on eggshells and I don't
[15:11]want that same sort of narrative around me and I'm annoying in my house
[15:18]sometimes like I don't always screw lids on all the way and he shook the
[15:24]orange juice before and gotten the shower so you know I think that it's
[15:28]important and not in all circumstances it's not toxic positivity where I'm
[15:32]saying okay just you know put a smile on your face and justify all of these
[15:38]things but it's important to remember that we do have some agency and how we
[15:43]show up in our relationship and how we make meaning of these things and when
[15:47]we engage in a conversation to shift it and when we say you know what this is
[15:51]a little deal and I'm really glad my husband is comfortable on our home and
[15:57]it's it's not sweating the small stuff correct and it's not these things
[16:03]you know not sweating the small stuff but these things the way that we sort of
[16:07]can walk around in our relationship collecting complaints start to fuel
[16:12]really negative attitude about one another and that becomes really big very
[16:16]quickly and it can happen on both sides so the stuff you can laugh about the
[16:21]socks or whatever but if I chose to go down that path before you know what I'm
[16:26]noticing all of the things that book me about him and that will immediately
[16:30]penetrate our relationship and start to sour dynamic so it's important but I
[16:35]think the best part is that you didn't take it to mean something about you you
[16:41]did initially but then you shifted the story because initially you were
[16:45]thinking maybe he doesn't care about you he doesn't respect you but you it's
[16:51]not about you he loves you it's just it's like a cigar Freud a cigar
[16:57]sometimes it's just a cigar or yeah you know so the socks have nothing to do
[17:04]with with his love or respect for you and so that's where you can change the
[17:09]story and also have a conversation I always say it's so crochet now but start
[17:14]with the eye statements I'm feeling a little bit
[17:18]respected or I'm feeling this way and then you can do the person an
[17:21]opportunity to say I'm sorry which is the best but also to explain like he
[17:28]probably what did he say like the first time let's say or second time when you
[17:32]pointed this out to him he's not gonna be like I never actually did with this one
[17:37]because it didn't really bother me but I would say in general let's say like in
[17:41]general there's something that you get triggered by and you bring it to his
[17:45]attention and then he explains his side because everybody has a side correct
[17:51]which is which is like the importance of making space to under chant
[17:55]understand each other's perspective so you can depersonalize it I will say
[17:59]there's a flip side to this example which is that let's say he did leave
[18:03]things out all of the time it would be important for him to step into
[18:08]understanding that that communicate something so there it might not be his
[18:12]intent but the impact might communicate something that can become problematic
[18:16]in the relationship which is I think a lot of couples get in sort of a sticky
[18:20]dynamic around this where it's like I'm trying to see the best but they keep
[18:23]doing the thing and that's really frustrating and I don't feel like I'm
[18:27]respected and so sometimes the socks are just socks and you don't need to make
[18:31]a big deal and sometimes if it's a picture of something much bigger going on
[18:35]in the relationship the conversation can become around you know maybe you
[18:39]don't mean anything disrespectful by this but the impact on me is that it
[18:45]feels like I'm regularly being disrespected so that differentiation between
[18:50]intent and impact can become really important and I think that one of the
[18:55]greatest things that can benefit a relationship is when you do bring something up
[19:00]and you talk about it and there is a shift there is a change once two people
[19:05]understand each other the problem the resentment comes in when you have the same
[19:09]conversation over and over and over again and nothing changes so it's nice
[19:14]and this goes back to the whole willingness like you have to both parties have to
[19:17]be willing to listen to each other to make change and this isn't changing who
[19:21]you are we are who we are core but this is like I always we were talking earlier
[19:27]about compromise versus sacrifice there's a compromise maybe he naturally
[19:31]wants to leave the socks on the floor that's a compromise he's gonna work a
[19:34]little bit harder sacrifice is once something is out of your integrity that is a
[19:38]no that is when there are big problems in the relationship but this isn't a big
[19:42]problem this is a compromise and so I think it's important for couples to know
[19:47]the difference or change a compromise in the sacrifice I agree yeah I think
[19:51]that's a great point and I think you know when you talk about willingness to
[19:56]have the conversation willingness to talk about things that
[20:00]where I see actually a lot of couples really getting stuck is that one partner in particular will
[20:06]usually sort of chase that conversation, initiate that conversation, which takes a lot of
[20:12]energy and a lot of effort, and then it is sometimes met with an unwillingness to go there for a
[20:18]variety of reasons, some sort of defensiveness or you know, you just make things harder than
[20:24]you need to, or your expectations are too high, or wish you would just take a little bit of off
[20:29]your plate and not do so much. So that feels dismissive. So I think, you know, part of what I hope
[20:36]couples get out of this book is really an unpacking of some of the belief systems that get into
[20:43]getting the way of the willingness to engage in these conversations. And then if you do butt up
[20:48]against some of these pushback areas that you are equipped to navigate it well. So you can kind of
[20:54]break through to the other side because at the end of the day the mental load isn't going anywhere
[21:00]and it's always changing in terms of the intensity and just how much is on our place like the
[21:06]holidays are coming up. It's just going to be a banana. It's like there's just going to be so much more
[21:10]that we're navigating and so you have to be able to engage in these conversations on a regular
[21:15]basis without spiraling down into these arguments in this tricky place. Yeah and not feeling
[21:22]so defensive because as we were discussing before also when it comes down to it, relationships
[21:30]really are simple. Ideally it's two people that want to make each other happy. They respect each
[21:37]other. They want to have fun together. But people make things so much more difficult because they
[21:44]bring unresolved issues, they bring the drama. And when it comes down to it, if you just, I mean,
[21:49]when I work with couples, I ask sometimes, do you have any desire to make each other happy?
[21:54]And sometimes they're like, why would I? And I'm like, and then why are you in this relationship?
[22:00]So that's a big question that when people are contemplating staying or going is really important,
[22:08]asking them why are you like it's important for people to know the meaning, the point of
[22:15]why they choose to be with this person forever or however long? Yeah, I think people who
[22:21]cite of that in their relationships. There's a few things that come to mind. A lot of times when
[22:29]we're in a place of resentment, we have a hard time giving until we get. So we sort of enter into
[22:36]this protective stance. So we're like, maybe I originally cared about eating happy, but now I'm not
[22:41]happy. So how am I supposed to do anything for you when you're not giving toward me? And then it
[22:46]ends up feeling vulnerable to step into that work. And so, I mean, in a perfect world, you have
[22:51]this mutual care taking in a relationship where each person is invested in the other person as well
[22:56]being, as you know, the other one. So you're both kind of giving and giving equally to one another.
[23:01]It doesn't always happen. Unfortunately, in the book, I talk about two coordinates. Everybody has
[23:08]in relationships. And I talk about the three things men want most in their relationships and
[23:12]women want most. And I think the two coordinates are we want to feel loved and we want to feel
[23:16]secure. And we feel these things expressed in different ways men and women do. And a lot of times
[23:23]it gets sort of muddied and confusing. And we have a hard time helping one another feel loved
[23:31]and secure in our relationships in the ways that we want them expressed. And so when this happened
[23:36]over time, I think it's really easy for people's defenses to come up. They start to protect
[23:41]themselves because they're not feeling secure and not feeling loved or the chase. There's all these
[23:45]dynamics that can kind of come out of these things that being met that can quickly take a
[23:51]relationship where two people wanted to make each other happy to a place where they're like,
[23:55]we don't even know, we feel the world apart at this point. We don't even know really what our
[24:01]common ground is anymore. And so disconnected. Yes. And that's why I like asking that question,
[24:07]why are you even why are you here? Why are you doing this? Not that the grass is green or anything
[24:14]like that, but I think it's a good question to be to really be insightful. And because everybody
[24:20]before people have gotten married have had plenty of relationships. So it's a nice way to look
[24:25]back and reflect on the other relationships and see what they like that they didn't like.
[24:30]is this any better? Is it not? And is there, is it fixable? Because once again, I think anything
[24:37]is fixable, but you got to both want to do it. I just want to check in on time. Okay. Because we have
[24:46]I'd say two more topics. Well, or get, let me just take something to that. How far along are we
[24:52]because we can just do questions maybe. Okay, I think so something that this brought up as your
[25:00]talking for me is in the book I have a chapter called Can We Talk and I think that
[25:07]there is this sort of mentality that kind of gets in the way of couples a lot of times
[25:12]being able to talk through issues or get to a better place and it's that if my partner needs
[25:18]something from me it means that I'm failing but to think a lot of men actually kind of jump to
[25:24]that space you know to come for a need it's like oh it's never enough I never get it right like
[25:29]these kind of common pushbacks and also the another belief system that sometimes gets in
[25:34]the way is if we have to talk about our relationship it means something is wrong and these belief
[25:41]systems a lot of times become barriers to actually regularly talking about your relationship and
[25:47]normalizing that we talk about it and if you think about dating when your work's in dating
[25:51]when you say can we talk it usually means we're breaking up you know so it's like we're sort of
[25:56]conditioned to go into a committed relationship feeling like well everything is good we don't need
[26:03]to talk about our relationship and so if we are talking about it means we're not in a good spot
[26:07]which means there's problems so we should avoid that at all costs when in reality the more we
[26:12]can communicate about our relationship and normalize that the better equipped will be to work
[26:16]through difficult issues and so yeah yeah and some a lot in psychology there's something called
[26:23]throwing out the trash it's like carrying this trash bag on your shoulder
[26:28]of you keep thinking of all the things that that you want to talk about but you're not and then
[26:34]you have this huge discussion which turns into this huge fight versus micro discussions as you
[26:40]go out throughout your day and you're which is so much better because then you don't have to have
[26:44]the we have to talk big conversation yeah and I really think that we need to we need the
[26:49]different statements for that then we need to talk we need to read the rebrand something that
[26:55]will be the next one well I um I talk about this in the book too because as relationships become
[27:01]more committed and so in the dating phase a lot of times men will pursue women and women will
[27:08]you know we like like to make them happy so we do all the extra special things too and then you
[27:13]become committed and you sort of shift priorities and um stop sort of pursuing one another
[27:21]in the same ways and I think that I'm losing my thought well what's coming to me which I
[27:28]would help you with is that the honeymoon phase dies and people get complacent and it doesn't
[27:34]have to be like that you need it relationships take work yes okay thank you for jogging my memory
[27:41]as you sort of settle in into more committed relationship what happens is that a lot of times
[27:45]the men shift their priorities and on average like broad strokes their priority shift to providing
[27:51]protecting financial and physical security and women shift to really caretaking for the relationships
[27:56]and which means then they're always and also caretaking the romantic relationship and so
[28:03]this becomes a problematic dynamic too because she feels like how come I'm the only one invested
[28:08]in working on our relationship and putting in the effort and when are you in a participate in that
[28:12]because you're used to I mean don't anymore and so these micro conversations become very important
[28:18]in the book sort of culminate with this plan for having regular check-ins in your relationship
[28:24]which not is not a new concept I give a framework for how to do it around specifically the mental
[28:29]load um but part of the reason this becomes so important is that it shares the management of the
[28:35]relationship between both partners it's not on her she feels like your is invested in caretaking
[28:41]for a relationship as I am um it also a lot of times women function with a list of things they want
[28:48]to talk about swirling around in their minds and it's like never a good time to bring it up and so
[28:54]we kind of exist with this anxiety like I need to talk about this or I need to process this or we
[28:58]need to get on the same page about this so when you have a like a forum that's scheduled
[29:04]a specific time we're going to come together and do that you're not carrying that anxiety
[29:08]so if you know that it's coming you can see you can breathe some sort of relief relief and also
[29:15]it normalizes talking about your relationship so the more that you regularly do that the less
[29:21]of a big deal it is and so it can really help the little stuff from growing into big things
[29:26]and and a successful relationship one of the best well in any relationship it's just the best
[29:30]feelings in the world is to feel seen and heard and so when someone says we need to talk
[29:37]and any other person's like I'm too busy and too busy and too busy this happens with my couples
[29:40]all the time and the other person is feeling like but I need to I want to use my voice and I want
[29:45]to share how I'm feeling if you're feeling like the other person doesn't have time so that's why
[29:49]it's good to have um it doesn't have to be the same time ever we because that might seem like
[29:53]a little too regimented but just to have the check-ins
[29:58]question in there right
[30:00]Did you want to talk about the sex part?
[30:05]Yeah, well, I don't know what where we are in time and everything.
[30:08]Sorry about sex.
[30:11]So we never really ever defined the mental load to everybody
[30:14]know what it is.
[30:15]We had one that, no, you're like, what are they talking about?
[30:18]It's still there.
[30:21]So yeah, let me give, like, I'll give you the 30,000 foot,
[30:25]and I'll give you a little bit in the weeds,
[30:26]because I feel like it makes things clear.
[30:28]So the 30,000 foot definition of the mental load
[30:31]is the seemingly never ending running to do
[30:33]let's be carry around in our heads.
[30:35]It has two key components.
[30:37]So the first is the majority of the tasks
[30:39]in the mental load are invisible, which
[30:41]makes it hard to explain, makes it hard to get appreciation
[30:44]around, makes it hard to hand off sometimes.
[30:47]And then the others, it takes up cognitive real estate.
[30:49]So just crowds out space in our brains.
[30:51]So it's like, you know, mom brain, or we
[30:53]have like 6,000 taps open, crowds out room for patients,
[30:58]crowds out room for creativity, and definitely getting
[31:01]in the mood for sex.
[31:02]So the mental load, everybody has one.
[31:05]It's not just a women's issue.
[31:06]It's just a human issue.
[31:09]But when you look at the research,
[31:11]the majority of the tasks associated
[31:13]with the mental load of home and family life
[31:14]are disproportionately carried by women,
[31:17]which is why it becomes a really big sort of issue
[31:20]within relationships, is because it starts
[31:22]to feel unfair.
[31:25]The In the Weeds definition came out of interviews
[31:29]that I did for the book.
[31:30]So I surveyed over 535 women for the book,
[31:33]and then I interviewed men and women.
[31:35]And I sat with this one woman, and she's like,
[31:37]I cannot get my husband to understand it.
[31:39]Can you please create a visual?
[31:41]So I made a visual of the mental load,
[31:43]and I think it explains it better than anything,
[31:46]because there's a piece a lot of times people miss.
[31:48]So the mental load has three categories of tasks.
[31:51]You can imagine them like concentric circles.
[31:54]So the first is the physical.
[31:56]And the physical is what guys usually think the mental load is.
[31:59]I did the dishes.
[32:00]I folded laundry, like you feel good now,
[32:02]you feel relieved, or you're not overwhelmed,
[32:04]we're like, not a chance.
[32:06]Cause there's more to it.
[32:08]The second circle is the mental,
[32:10]and that's just like the making of lists,
[32:12]or the steps involved in whatever it is you're doing.
[32:15]The third is the kicker.
[32:17]That's the most important one,
[32:18]and that's the emotional labor of home and family life.
[32:21]And so kids are mouthful, that's it.
[32:24]The emotional labor is the regular cause
[32:27]and effect calculations that we make
[32:30]to try to maximize positive experiences
[32:33]of the people that we care about.
[32:35]So it follows you everywhere.
[32:38]You can be working full-time and be whiplashed
[32:40]back into the emotional labor.
[32:43]It's really hard to hand off,
[32:46]because it requires a deep knowing
[32:48]of the people that you love.
[32:49]Also sometimes women don't trust their partners
[32:53]to do those calculations in the same way.
[32:56]And to be a thorough, so it's hard to really release
[32:59]some of that emotional labor.
[33:01]And it feels like the stakes are really, really high.
[33:04]So the last piece is that the majority of tasks
[33:08]of home and family life occur at the intersection
[33:11]of these three circles, and I call it the triple threat.
[33:14]And that means that almost every task can be unpacked
[33:19]to contain effort or energy from all three domains.
[33:23]So like dinner can just seem like,
[33:26]oh, it's just chopping and cooking.
[33:28]But that's the physical aspect, the shopping,
[33:30]the chopping, the cooking, the mental is the making
[33:33]of the list, so looking through your fridge,
[33:34]looking through your ban tree.
[33:36]What am I gonna do about that missing ingredient?
[33:38]I inevitably always have.
[33:40]And then there's the emotional part.
[33:41]How do I make something that everybody will eat,
[33:43]that they'll feel full, that they're getting enough nutrition,
[33:46]and that nobody's crying and whining for a bar at that time?
[33:49]So when you think about a list of things on your plate,
[33:53]a lot of women will be like, I don't know why I'm so overwhelmed.
[33:56]A lot of men will say, just make me a list.
[33:58]Like I got you.
[34:00]And we're like, ah, it's too much.
[34:02]And it's because every item on that list will unpack
[34:06]to contain a ton of energy and effort.
[34:10]And so it grows exponentially and becomes very, very quickly.
[34:17]Do we have any questions?
[34:18]Okay, the sex part.
[34:19]That was the part I was getting to.
[34:21]I'm gonna get to the sex woman.
[34:25]So why sex becomes part of this conversation
[34:28]around the mental load is because
[34:33]when you have a really full brain,
[34:36]when your cognitive real estate is occupied
[34:38]by all these things, especially for women,
[34:41]it's really hard to get to a place
[34:43]where you can find your desire.
[34:44]Sex is part of a relationship.
[34:47]You might have different, maybe you're in a relationship
[34:49]where you're like, we don't need it that much.
[34:50]And if you agree on that, that's great.
[34:52]But it is part of a relationship.
[34:54]So if you remove it, it's gonna inevitably
[34:56]affect your closeness, your connection,
[34:58]potentially leaves your relationship.
[35:00]warmable. So it becomes a critical part of relationships. But women everywhere will sort of say
[35:05]after kids on my libido, everything's changing. A lot of times, one of the factors that we need to
[35:11]consider is, well, how full is your head? How full is your mental load? For women to get turned on,
[35:18]our brains have to be turned off. So this becomes a really important piece. Another is that,
[35:23]you know, to feel connected inside the bedroom, for most women you have to feel connected
[35:28]outside the bedroom. So if you try to bring up this topic with your significant other
[35:33]and they're defensive or they're dismissive, that is not going to do anything for your sex life.
[35:38]Because you're not going to feel safe and loved and connected outside the bedroom.
[35:42]The third way it's really impacted your sex life by the mental load, and this is
[35:48]talk about Freud. A lot of times what happens is when women try to talk about this with their
[35:53]partners, if it's not received well, sometimes she'll just get a little louder. Sometimes she'll shut
[36:01]down, but sometimes she'll get a little louder. So then she starts sort of chasing. So she becomes
[36:06]the nagging mother and he becomes the extra child. And that is not a sexy dynamic and any stretch
[36:13]of the imagination. So this topic, if it's not something that's going well in your relationship,
[36:19]becomes incredibly important to sort through and to find a kind of better share around.
[36:26]And just to conclude, somebody saw this recently and I love it and it's so true that
[36:35]men are microwaves and women are ovens. Men can be in the middle of a fight and have sex
[36:42]because that is how they are. And women, we need the emotional to-be readiness. So it takes us
[36:48]longer to get over something and to get ready and men are just like, okay, let's take care of it.
[36:54]So that is how men are doing it also as well. Any questions?
[37:06]We got a burning question.
[37:09]Talking about the mental load and in particular for women who maybe have absorbed it for a long time
[37:16]and very entrenched in the patterns that kind of taking it all on. How do you
[37:26]with clients or whatever are you helping them release some of the mental load and trust that
[37:35]their partner can do some of the things that they feel that they alone can do?
[37:42]Yes. So how do you start walking at that?
[37:46]There are lots of places you can kind of enter into this. So one way that's important to address
[37:54]is I think there are a lot of women who struggle to even kind of like ask for what they need because
[38:00]they've already set this precedent for so long that they're the ones who just kind of absorb.
[38:04]I talk about women as like the bounty-quick or pick-ruppers. We just kind of absorb things with no
[38:09]conversation. So I remember I had to do all of this work. I was the one who took it all on and
[38:16]so I began with FYI. I'm going to be speaking up for what I need a little bit more and I'm not sure
[38:24]how it's going to come off for a little bit so you're going to have to work with me on this but
[38:28]I'm getting to a place of not feeling good in our relationship and I want to take care of our
[38:36]relationship. So this is for the benefit of us. So you give me feedback. So sort of like
[38:40]announcing that a shift is going to happen was really helpful. I think introducing the concept of
[38:48]the mental load in your relationship is really important. So you both start to speak the same
[38:52]language. That's another point of entry that becomes important and I found that the most like if
[38:58]you want to set the conversation up for success it can be really helpful to position it kind of
[39:04]of where I started, which is that the mental load is going to be your shared enemy in the
[39:08]relationship. So I would say something like, you know, you may have noticed that I've been more
[39:15]overwhelmed or like whatever you think would resonate with your partner. I've been more overwhelmed.
[39:19]You might notice I'm kind of tense. Now I get like real tense when I'm overwhelmed with the mental
[39:23]it stuff. You probably noticed this about me and there's actually name for it and I want to talk
[39:29]about it together and it's called something the mental load can sort of explain it. Part of the
[39:34]issue with it is that it's just so heavy in life with all that we have on our plates and it's
[39:41]to a place where it's not feeling good for me and that's going to affect how we interact as a
[39:46]couple and I want us to have the best relationship possible. So I want to talk about how you and I
[39:50]can navigate all the responsibilities that we're carrying in a way that feels good to the
[39:55]both of us. And I think we have to make some changes around this. So just like-
[40:00]start introducing the topic. I talk in my book about the actual handoff, which is what you're also talking about,
[40:07]like specifically how do you navigate that. And it's very nuanced because I think there are some tasks
[40:15]that are like, you really got to get right. You know, like I tell a story about when my son went to
[40:21]preschool and they were just like militant about the lunches and like what could be included
[40:27]and what couldn't be. And it was very stressful. So that would be like we have to have a conversation.
[40:32]So I talk about kind of going to need to sort through. If you're going to hand some things off,
[40:35]is this something that needs to be done in a very specific way? And if so, you can almost do like
[40:40]an on-the-job training. I'm going to show you how it's done. Do you have any questions? Okay, great.
[40:46]This belongs to you. And for the other things that don't really matter, some people will say,
[40:53]how you hold the towels matter. I don't. Does it matter? I don't know. You got to decide. Okay.
[41:00]Some people really care about that. But for the things that really don't matter that much,
[41:04]that you really want to hand off. I say you got to let them figure it out. You got to let them
[41:09]fail and find their own way. And so that might mean getting out of the room. That might mean coming
[41:16]up with some mantra to manage as they're learning. But if you really think about the handing
[41:23]off of tasks, we've probably had. If you've been doing it a long time, a lot more practice.
[41:29]So if you just quantify the number of times, I did it. I think I did it once with lunches.
[41:34]Like I'd packed like 975 lunches for a daughter. So my 976 time is going to be like far
[41:41]superior to my husband's worst. If that's something I'm handing off. So some of these sort of
[41:46]reframes around it to give them a little bit of space is really important. Because
[41:53]if you hand something off and then it's met with criticism or it's micromanaging,
[41:58]it shuts down the efforts. I'll say one more thing. I listened to this podcast a long, long time ago.
[42:04]And they told a story which I thought was really cool, where it was about the wife always set up
[42:10]the babysitters. And this one time she just couldn't. And she's like, I need you to handle finding
[42:15]a babysitter. And she goes, so what did he do? He did a group text with like five sitters.
[42:23]I was like, here's what we need. First one to reply gets the job. And she was like,
[42:28]he did this so much more efficiently and better than me. And I had no idea. And now this is his.
[42:35]And so I think we have to also weave a little bit of opportunity for our partners to kind of
[42:40]like prove us wrong. And to be a bit better, maybe than us in some ways.
[42:49]I wonder if you could share a little bit about your writing process. Sure.
[42:53]It's your previous book was about your being a mom and your experience as a mother.
[42:59]And now it's about your improved marriage and relationships. I'm just wondering is it
[43:05]is it something that you are tracking up at all times?
[43:09]Sit down and write at the end of the day or if you have your third book ready or
[43:14]not yet. I think I crashed after this one. I did two and three years. And I needed a minute. I think
[43:22]I'm still in my minute quite honestly. It was a lot of output. I tend to be like a marathon writer.
[43:30]When I first started my first book, I guess our daughter was the age of our son now.
[43:38]So she's eight or nine. Now she's 12. And so our son was six. She's kind of wild. And so it's a busy
[43:46]time of life. And like I said, my husband travels every week. Oh, and I also do a homeschool hybrid.
[43:52]So like my work hours are pretty limited. So how we did it was he would come home and he would
[44:02]take the kids away for the weekend. And I would write three chapters in like two days.
[44:08]So I would just be like mulling it over through the week kind of organizing it. I did spend
[44:14]some time like we have a big white board in our playroom. And I just mapped out all my chapters
[44:20]and my concepts and how I wanted it to fit together. And then by the time I sat down to write,
[44:25]I was ready. So I write, I actually write faster than I can read. So that's lucky. But yeah,
[44:32]marathon session. Yeah. I would say if anybody is thinking about writing a book that whenever these
[44:43]random thoughts come to you, put it in your phone, I would say because I think I'm a little
[44:49]the opposite. I'm a disorganized writer. I like to like kind of put it together as a puzzle.
[44:55]Like I just kind of put things on the pages and I just got to get it out. And
[45:00]And then I figure out the order.
[45:03]But the point is that, as you were just talking,
[45:05]I was remembering moments when I would be writing,
[45:07]when I would just be in the flow.
[45:09]It's called flow.
[45:11]Flow just means you were really in that moment.
[45:13]And there were times where I was writing
[45:15]on my computer, and I would start crying.
[45:17]And those are the best moments because you are really there.
[45:22]And that translates so much to the reader.
[45:26]So I would say, and I was bringing this up also,
[45:29]never write when you don't want to write.
[45:32]Write when you're in a place.
[45:35]You can't feel like a task.
[45:36]You need to feel like you are inspired and you're
[45:39]ready to just, and then it just becomes through you.
[45:42]Yeah.
[45:43]I didn't get to do that as much as I wanted to.
[45:46]Because it was like, I'm taking the kids.
[45:48]You have two days.
[45:49]I'd be like, whoa, I could not want to.
[45:52]Mine was more like an everyday from like 10 o'clock at night
[45:55]until 2 in the morning.
[45:56]So we all are.
[45:57]Good.
[45:58]I think every writer, and you probably
[46:01]have gotten to hear from so many incredible authors
[46:03]of how their process works.
[46:06]We all have time.
[46:06]And some people are like, morning writers.
[46:09]I am not a morning worker writer or anything.
[46:12]My creative time is at night.
[46:13]That's one that's like, yeah, yeah.
[46:15]People have different.
[46:16]And yours is like, you had your weekend.
[46:19]I just had to get to do it.
[46:20]You had a muscle through it.
[46:21]I set timers, and I would say to write for 45 minutes,
[46:25]even if it's terrible.
[46:26]And by the time I'd get done with 45 minutes,
[46:29]I'd be in a groove.
[46:30]And so I find my way.
[46:32]Does anybody hear a one-rated book?
[46:35]Any books going on inside of you?
[46:39]Oh, you're writing book?
[46:40]No.
[46:41]I'm writing one day.
[46:42]I love writing one.
[46:44]Do you like writing?
[46:47]Fiction.
[46:48]You do?
[46:50]I have ideas, but I've had the same ideas
[46:52]for years, and I've never done anything.
[46:54]OK.
[46:55]So I answer no.
[46:56]It's just, yeah.
[46:58]Well, it's true.
[47:00]Yes, now you can start.
[47:03]And how much, like, yeah?
[47:06]Oh, I have a question.
[47:08]Many of the couples, I know you did.
[47:11]Did you really couples where one person was
[47:14]able to say open the other person to care?
[47:17]And how did the next one go?
[47:20]Once it goes for us.
[47:22]So not for the book.
[47:24]I interviewed men and women separately,
[47:25]but we still have a podcast.
[47:27]And my dad and I say, we, like, who is this other person?
[47:34]And for a while, we would just bring real people on.
[47:39]And we would just talk to them about what's
[47:41]going on with them and coach them sort of life.
[47:43]And we had a couple where the husband had
[47:47]pretty significant mental illness.
[47:50]And we talked about what it was like for them
[47:52]to navigate the mental load.
[47:54]And when I launched my book, I
[47:57]have a section of just Q&A in my book, kind of situation,
[48:01]like, troubleshooting.
[48:03]I have a section on ADHD, because that comes up a lot too.
[48:06]When I launched my book, I had a guide on that.
[48:08]So not special needs in terms of physical disability,
[48:12]but mental and emotional.
[48:14]And it really adds, like, quite a complicated layer
[48:18]to the mental load.
[48:19]And usually, it requires either more supports.
[48:25]And this is like the unsexy answer.
[48:27]More supports.
[48:29]My ADHD is involved.
[48:30]It usually requires more systems and more structure.
[48:33]And built in sort of mechanisms for accountability.
[48:37]But yeah, it definitely adds a layer.
[48:39]So it's not really talked about much or enough.
[48:43]Yeah.
[48:44]How did you find the couples to you?
[48:48]So through social media, just put feelers out.
[48:51]And it's really just grateful that people
[48:55]were willing to give me their time.
[48:57]They really didn't get much of anything out of it.
[48:59]So we just got to chat for like an hour or two.
[49:03]But yeah, it was amazing.
[49:04]And even when I did the survey, I mean,
[49:07]it was easy to get all these people to fill it out.
[49:10]It's a topic that when you're living it,
[49:12]it's just so impactful on your quality of life
[49:15]that people were happy to share the lens or insight.
[49:18]I'll see if you want it to be at a rate of time.
[49:21]Yeah.
[49:22]So you have a selection effect going on, for sure.
[49:26]Yeah.
[49:27]But it was really nice to talk to the men, too,
[49:31]to hear, what is it that sort of sparks up
[49:33]the fence in this or on the topic for you?
[49:35]And they kind of dig into some of that.
[49:39]I was just going to ask that how the research and how long
[49:42]you researched and how that was a follow
[49:46]to the writing process question.
[49:48]But like, I'll pick this up and say earlier,
[49:50]but like have to have so much research first
[49:53]or simultaneously, right?
[49:58]So get like once you try.
[50:00]in a manuscript, you have with a little bit of free time before you start getting edits
[50:04]and then before you launch it. And so when I turned into my manuscript for my first book,
[50:09]I knew this was coming. So then I started putting together the survey and putting
[50:14]feelers out to get a couple. So I did a lot of my research while I was in the middle of editing
[50:20]my first book. I'd say it probably occurred just that part of it, like over three or four month
[50:26]period. But then there's a lot of just like literature and stuff to read. But I've been doing
[50:31]that over there because I talk about this on social media. So years of reading about it.
[50:40]I have a question. You are mentioning that the couple's in the office,
[50:45]you're saying to them, what do you hope to get out of there? Do you want to be too unhappy?
[50:50]But isn't it pretty positive to sign that they're in your office in the first place?
[50:54]In other words, the couples that you really are trying to reach in the ones that they're not.
[50:58]Well, yes and no, the thing is a lot of couples one person reaches out and they're dragging
[51:05]the other person in. Now sometimes we'll just say men and women because a lot of times it's the
[51:11]men that don't want to do therapy because they don't like talking as much. So we'll use that example.
[51:17]I literally say it to couples like this. I literally say to them, I'm not conventional,
[51:22]but I say, this is going to be fun. And then it actually kind of is even through the tears
[51:28]and the fighting, the sessions always and like in my mind, I'm like, you cannot and
[51:33]we ought to add on a good place. And it always does. So to answer your question,
[51:38]at the beginning, sometimes are not both willing and sometimes they never are both willing.
[51:47]So that's why I love my job because every individual is different, every couples different.
[51:51]And so it just, it depends. But no, most of the time it's not both people that are willing.
[51:57]But then once they start the process and they see things getting better,
[52:02]then they sometimes actually they look forward to doing session.
[52:07]Did you interview the older couples and did you find that
[52:15]when you interview them, they have worked out these problems already. Is it mostly younger couples
[52:21]that go through this? I think it depends. So my pool was from my social media, my email list.
[52:30]So those are going to be people who are kind of like living life with probably toddlers,
[52:36]babies, toddlers, like teens and tweens kind of in that phase of still child-wearing
[52:41]their children. But I did a four-hour workshop. I was telling you guys about this.
[52:49]My dad has this way of volunteering me to do things. And I show up to do this four-hour workshop
[52:57]on my book. And it's right after my book comes out and I am like completely burned out,
[53:02]like I can't believe I have to do this. I show up and it's average age 75 in the audience.
[53:11]I was terrified. Honestly, I don't, I feel like I can do anything now. Like I had talked about
[53:15]this stuff with people who probably haven't like no ability to relate to what I'm talking about.
[53:20]And I did an exercise and during the exercise, I walked around and I started talking to the
[53:25]couples. And the majority of the couples said the women usually, I have been dealing with this
[53:34]form the entirety of my marriage and finally somebody's talking about it. And so I hope
[53:43]like of most older couples reach a point where they are like they have worked through this.
[53:49]But I do think that there are a lot of older couples that it's like you've developed a
[53:53]precedent throughout your entire relationship. So the kids leave and you're still kind of in your
[53:58]same roles. Nothing shifts. And so I just still think there are quite a few older couples that are
[54:05]just kind of like this is the way it's always been. And this is the way we're going to get to
[54:08]need to go on. But perhaps it was something that was frustrating in bothersome. I tell a story in the book.
[54:17]My mom was a stay-at-home mom. Definitely like very just traditional roles. Very much a woman who
[54:25]just has a large capacity to do things. But I remember her like puffing and puffing
[54:31]irritatingly like around the house. Just like, guess I'll take care of that and guess I'll take
[54:36]this. You don't seem to know what the mental load was but my mom was feeling it.
[54:40]You know, we now will talk about it. So I think it's still a really relevant issue for a
[54:45]lot of older couples. I hope that they find a better place with it. I hope you now.
[54:50]It's not that you now.
[54:58]Yes, it always is better.
[55:00]Sorry, can I turn on you said you did a podcast, you did that, do you share a little bit more about that, it's so interesting.
[55:07]Yes, we don't do it anymore, but it's still out there.
[55:11]If you want to listen to it, it's called The Love Thanks podcast, and we like trying to bring people in to just share.
[55:19]Like I want to talk about it, I want to talk with a man about the mental load.
[55:23]When I first was like, I really need to talk with men about this, not just women.
[55:28]We're in a echo chamber here, and so we had a guy come on talk about it, we had a couple who've been married quite a while,
[55:33]who found like a really nice share, they came on talk about it, talked about a couple of mental illness.
[55:38]We talked with a couple who, there's infidelity in their relationship and they share their stories, so it's just fun.
[55:45]Yeah, yes, sorry, he has his doctor in psychology, yeah, he has a book for singles actually.
[55:54]I've been doing this a long time.
[55:57]I feel like I've had many questions from now.
[56:00]I don't remember.
[56:01]They left the building.
[56:03]When I went in half, I'll be doing this in your talk that was all nice.
[56:07]I'll talk with every day.
[56:09]I talk about my friends all the time.
[56:11]Yeah, I'm currently in a relationship with the primary most of my friends are, and everything you're saying, I feel like it's snorely,
[56:20]like the stereotype.
[56:21]Yeah, yeah.
[56:22]You just stereotype.
[56:23]So like when you're booked, when you were saying you heard this male truck driver, you know, he had his thoughts on it.
[56:29]Where do you think the dynamic is ever going to change?
[56:33]Where it's like, it's not just the woman bringing the man into the therapy session, or more men reading this type of book now,
[56:42]or maybe they're hearing better reading it and not hearing it like they were from their partner.
[56:47]Or, you know, it's just really hard, you know, I feel like we have the conversation.
[56:54]So often, like you said, with older couples, they just haven't dealt with it, and now things are gone.
[56:59]And it's harder to do it when you're older too.
[57:02]Yes.
[57:04]And at least it is more talked about now, but it's a generational thing too.
[57:08]I think it's more accepted in a way now, but like with our parents or whatever.
[57:13]It's like, there's so many issues.
[57:16]So yeah, when does it really change?
[57:19]When does it?
[57:20]Or how?
[57:21]I tend to be optimistic about it.
[57:25]I think it is shifting.
[57:27]When we look at the research, even like men are spending more time with their kids, and you could pick that apart.
[57:33]And be like, well, what are you doing with your kids?
[57:35]And is it actually like relieving any of this sort of emotional labor and mental labor burden.
[57:41]But I do think we're shifting in the right direction.
[57:44]I feel like women,
[57:48]we have a lot of power and how we can shift this societal kind of like current, I believe.
[57:55]Women are really powerful in that way.
[57:58]And we have really brought this topic, I think, to the forefront.
[58:03]I know I'm like in, you know, I'm just like in it all the time.
[58:06]So I see it all the time.
[58:07]But I do think it's becoming more of a mainstream discussion or mainstream topic.
[58:10]We have like language and labels for it now.
[58:13]I think we're leading the charge.
[58:15]I think that there are a lot of men who for a long time feel confused about how to show up in their relationships.
[58:22]And they're really being challenged to show up to show up with more emotional intelligence.
[58:30]We're raising our kids.
[58:31]We're cycle breaking or raising our kids differently.
[58:34]We're being very intentional about all that.
[58:36]I think men are being challenged just step into taking more ownership over how they show up in their relationships,
[58:42]developing their emotional intelligence.
[58:44]And I think, you know, there are a lot of men who are passively willing to engage in this work.
[58:53]And as they hear more about these things and see the benefits to the relationship and feel like there is actually a clear past forward to being, you know, involved in their relationship and move the needle and meet her needs in the way that she wants.
[59:08]I think that they will step into the work.
[59:10]I think that there are just like a few steps behind.
[59:13]I'm just like, they're catching up.
[59:16]And I think it's important that we continue to invite them into the conversation to the men who are like, I'm here.
[59:22]I don't know what to do.
[59:23]But like, I'm open to it that they're welcome to the conversation and to make these shifts.
[59:28]But I think it's going to take a bit of time, but there are already signs of positive growth in the men.
[59:34]Yeah.
[59:35]I don't want to say that you get that sock story.
[59:38]So meaningful.
[59:40]Well, you took a possible negative that motherhood would turn to a negative like I can't stand this anymore.
[59:48]I can't stand this anymore.
[59:50]And you took it and said, oh, gosh, this means that my husband is home.
[59:56]And it makes me so happy.
[59:57]I'm just like, it's wonderful.
[60:00]So that's the way it should be and like don't sweat the smell stuff.
[60:05]And that's where I would say it's the best advice in a relationship.
[60:10]Yeah and that's what you did.
[60:12]Oh thank you. I say in the book gracious interpretations lead to more positive interactions
[60:21]and it's true. We all want to be seen in the best light possible and be given the benefit of the
[60:26]doubt and goes a long way. Yeah thanks for saying that.
[60:30]Very, very close.
[60:32]On that note we should probably wrap it up.
[60:38]Yeah thanks for hanging in there.
[60:40]Thank you very much.
[60:42]Yeah we want to thank you for doing.
[60:46]Thank you very much.
[60:50]Thank you very much.
[60:54]Thank you very much.