Author Event! Caitlin Mullen & Stephanie Wrobel
[0:00]Thank you for coming.
[0:01]Kaitlyn and I have been friends for a few years now.
[0:05]And I was lucky enough to read her second book, Heather,
[0:07]which is absolutely fantastic.
[0:09]I'm sure you're all either have read it
[0:12]or are going to read it.
[0:13]But I thought for those who are less familiar,
[0:15]we'd start with an easy question
[0:17]and just tell us what the book is about.
[0:18]That's the hardest question.
[0:20]I feel like these are the vibes.
[0:21]Yeah, and people who doesn't really answer that question.
[0:25]So Heather is a mystery that unfolds over two timelines.
[0:29]In present day, we have newly instated
[0:31]Chief of Police Kelly Hauser,
[0:33]who is returning to her hometown
[0:34]in the New Jersey Pine Barons after several years away.
[0:39]Shortly upon her return,
[0:41]she makes an arrest that leads her to a cold case
[0:44]from the 1990s.
[0:46]And the more she digs into this cold case from the 90s,
[0:49]the more secret she uncovers about the people
[0:52]in her life.
[0:52]She knows best, and this town where she grew up
[0:55]that she thinks she knows well.
[0:58]And things start to unravel from there.
[1:00]That's how I end every book explanation to him.
[1:03]And things unfold in there.
[1:05]At messy.
[1:06]Where did the idea for this book come from?
[1:09]So this idea was kind of too hard.
[1:12]So the New Jersey Pine Barons,
[1:14]if you guys don't know,
[1:15]it's like over a million acres of woods
[1:18]kind of situated in the middle of the state,
[1:20]which people don't necessarily think New Jersey and woods
[1:23]and forest.
[1:25]But it's a pretty isolated part of the state,
[1:28]like you drive through and your cell phone service cuts out.
[1:32]It's all protected, wilderness land,
[1:35]which is really important,
[1:36]but it also gives this very desolate, isolated feel.
[1:39]So I moved back to New Jersey from Brooklyn in 2020
[1:42]during the pandemic.
[1:43]And I've been working on another novel,
[1:44]a different novel,
[1:45]but I was driving through the Pine Barons
[1:48]from my town, Princeton,
[1:49]to the Jersey Shore where my family is from.
[1:52]A lot.
[1:52]And I just couldn't shake the feeling,
[1:54]like there's a story here.
[1:56]There's something here,
[1:57]like just the woods and the eariness of the woods.
[2:00]It's a very distinct landscape.
[2:02]It's very flat.
[2:03]So you can never really get like a vantage point
[2:05]and see like where you've come from
[2:07]and where you've been,
[2:07]if you're walking through the woods.
[2:10]There's a lot of like myths around
[2:11]in New Jersey Pine Barons.
[2:13]That shows up in the book.
[2:14]So all of that was kind of like in my head,
[2:17]as I was thinking,
[2:18]and I was working on this other book at the time.
[2:20]That was very different.
[2:20]It was like a lightly speculative novel.
[2:24]Set in at the time this hadn't happened yet,
[2:27]but like a post-ro America with twin sisters at the center.
[2:33]And that book for a lot of reasons
[2:35]just wasn't coming together and wasn't coming together.
[2:37]And I just thought like,
[2:38]what if I take these twin sisters
[2:39]and put them in this new place that's been so appealing
[2:43]and interesting to me.
[2:44]And that kind of galvanized the story in a lot of ways.
[2:50]I was gonna, yeah,
[2:50]the setting is very evocative in this book.
[2:53]I had never heard of the Pine Barons before.
[2:56]But like there's this whole thing about like sinkholes
[2:58]and like the Jersey Devil.
[3:00]And so did you know these stories having grown up?
[3:03]How far is the Jersey Shore from there?
[3:05]I don't know my geography.
[3:06]Yeah. So I mean, depending where you are on the Pine Barons,
[3:08]because it stretches so far from like the middle of the state too,
[3:10]all the way to like the southern tip of the state,
[3:12]like you can be to the beach in 30 minutes
[3:14]from some parts of the Pine Barons.
[3:15]Where, you know, the way I have to drive,
[3:17]it's like an hour and a half.
[3:18]So it's a pretty, okay.
[3:19]Very extensive swaths of these woods
[3:23]that I'm driving through.
[3:24]But those stories I did grow up with those stories.
[3:27]Like you're even taught about the Jersey Devil
[3:29]in school as a kid.
[3:30]Like mythology that you learn as a part of your heritage
[3:34]as a New Jersey and you're like, yeah, of course,
[3:37]there's like a cryptid with a goat's head
[3:39]and bat's wings and the hoves and the woods, like sure.
[3:43]So there's a lot of that mythology
[3:45]that you just kind of like grow up with
[3:48]or people pass around almost like campfire story style,
[3:51]you know.
[3:52]So that I'd been aware of,
[3:53]but I hadn't known a lot of the background on the myth
[3:56]and that I was doing a lot of research on
[3:58]when I was writing the book.
[3:59]And what about other research?
[4:01]Like I felt like the police procedure was like
[4:03]really on point and really like,
[4:05]unless you already knew that,
[4:06]it just seemed like so well researched.
[4:08]So I have an uncle who's a cop who also happens
[4:11]to live in the Pine Barons and he was a detective
[4:14]for a while focusing on like drugs and narcotics.
[4:17]So I grew up like on his stories
[4:19]and so that was a good resource for me.
[4:23]And then I was kind of really obnoxious
[4:24]and I would just ask cops in my town questions.
[4:27]I was writing at one point.
[4:30]Like I was like very pregnant with my daughter
[4:33]and I was in copy edits and the copy editor
[4:34]had like a question about a code I used.
[4:36]Like I'm looking this up and like, you know,
[4:38]in New Jersey it seems like sometimes this is the code
[4:40]for drug driving, sometimes it's not, can you clarify
[4:43]and make sure and I just flagged down this cop,
[4:46]you know, like nine months pregnant.
[4:47]But the officer and she looks at me like,
[4:49]oh no, like you have to like,
[4:51]help this woman get to the hospital.
[4:53]And then I'm like, I have a question for my novel
[4:55]and she's like, oh no, yeah, talk to someone
[4:58]about their book, even worth.
[5:00]Um, yeah, it was just kind of like being obnoxious and talking to cops.
[5:03]Wow. I could never, but I really admire your curves.
[5:06]It was, I mean, it wasn't introverted, like, scary every time.
[5:09]I guess, like, having the uncle connection.
[5:11]Just, like, you know, I need to.
[5:13]Okay, so we've got three POVs in this book.
[5:16]One is Kelly Houser, the detective.
[5:18]One is one of the twins.
[5:19]And then one is this other character who ends up being the daughter of somebody important.
[5:24]So it sounds like you may be started with Annabelle, one of the twins POVs?
[5:29]I did, yeah.
[5:30]Um, Kelly takes up the most kind of real estate in the book, but I started with Annabelle,
[5:36]one of the twin sisters.
[5:37]That was my entry point in the book.
[5:40]And then with Kelly, I kind of felt like, okay, the story needs more of an engine.
[5:45]And we need a character who's going to, like, galvanize and make things happen.
[5:49]Annabelle, um, I loved writing Annabelle's character.
[5:52]But I also, she's kind of an avoidant character.
[5:55]She can be passive so that she wasn't going to be a character who was going to make a lot
[5:59]happen in the story.
[6:00]So the story really needed the structure, I think, of someone who is going to do investigations
[6:05]and kind of dig into questions.
[6:09]And did you find one much easier to write than another?
[6:13]Yeah, I found Annabelle easier to write.
[6:16]And I don't know if that's because I sort of had been working on that twin story before I
[6:21]came into this in the Cali point of view.
[6:23]I had to reinvent the wheel and really figure out the deal and who she was in her backstory
[6:29]to kind of get into her.
[6:30]Was she Annabelle in the other story too?
[6:33]Like, was it Annabelle and Sabrina in the other story?
[6:36]It wasn't those exact twins.
[6:37]They were similar in that one twin was more outgoing and more, and then one twin was a little
[6:43]more passive.
[6:44]Yeah.
[6:45]And they kind of played off each other in that way.
[6:47]So I think those, a lot of their qualities came over, but it wasn't interesting.
[6:51]Yeah.
[6:52]I've never pulled my character, like any character is from one project to another.
[6:56]Yeah.
[6:56]It was a weird feeling, but I think it helped me get my footing.
[7:00]Like, at the time, I felt so bad that I couldn't get this other book off the ground,
[7:04]because I had published one book.
[7:05]And then I felt all this pressure with the sophomore book and I had a kid.
[7:09]And I was like, what if I can't write?
[7:11]Because I have a kid now, I need to prove that I can still do this.
[7:14]And then it's going to be like a bigger book than the first book and all these things that
[7:18]were kind of in my head.
[7:20]And then Heather was the blonde, because we talked about this at the time, where you had these
[7:23]two books and you couldn't decide which one.
[7:25]And I think you were like, one is just like really like coming out quickly.
[7:29]Yeah.
[7:29]So that was how they're.
[7:30]Yeah.
[7:30]Okay.
[7:31]So that I locked something.
[7:32]But I think it was because I did all the legwork with the other book that I felt completely stuck in.
[7:37]And then once I like kind of gave myself permission to like move on from that, this book.
[7:41]Yeah.
[7:42]I'm locked in an interesting way.
[7:44]And so Annabelle is written in second person, which am I correct that you did that with
[7:49]please see us too?
[7:50]I did that for one session.
[7:51]I really like second person.
[7:52]I know readers are.
[7:54]It was amazing.
[7:55]The vibes are great.
[7:56]They're about hard to do.
[7:57]If you don't know, if you're not a writer, it's very hard to pull off, especially for
[8:01]as many pages as Kaitlin's doing.
[8:03]What's the draw for you to second person?
[8:05]I mean, I think psychologically the draw is that, you know, I've used it for characters who
[8:11]have a hard time looking at their life head-on and maybe like for their particular trauma and
[8:16]their particular particular head-on because it is like a distancing point of view.
[8:21]If you're saying, you know, if I'm narrating something that's happened and so like,
[8:24]oh, you walked a breakfast, you know, you feel like outside of the story in a way you're placing
[8:28]yourself on the other side of the narrative, which I think for these characters in Annabelle,
[8:33]in particular, something she kind of needs to do to survive.
[8:36]And it's, you know, she's throughout the narrative.
[8:41]Like, you can't really look head-on at anything that's really happening in her life,
[8:44]whether it be of her sister or other things going on.
[8:48]So yeah, but I know readers have thoughts about that, which is kind of a, I love second person,
[8:53]I'll be as you say.
[8:54]I feel like, well, I don't know.
[8:55]I'm curious, like, if you guys feel that you notice, I feel like a lot of readers are just kind
[9:01]of swept up in the story and not really paying attention to like what, you know, which
[9:06]tense or like first person, third person, whatever, like it's just sort of, if done well,
[9:11]feels kind of invisible and you're not noticing when they're switching between, but
[9:14]I was trying to avoid first person, which I used in my first book because I am someone who
[9:20]can get like caught up in the interiority of that a lot.
[9:23]Oh, interesting.
[9:24]So I was, I gave myself a challenge to not use it in this book.
[9:27]Yeah, because Kelly's in third person.
[9:29]Yeah.
[9:29]Yeah.
[9:31]Which was hard, but I think that was good to have like one kind of very
[9:35]distinct, cracked challenge to lay out for myself.
[9:39]And then without giving anything away, the last sentence of Annabelle's section switches to
[9:44]first person, what was the thought behind that process?
[9:47]I think through the events of the book she is forced to confront the thing she doesn't want to
[9:53]to look at head on, and that switches like a signal that she's at least starting to try to
[10:00]and knit those two halves of her life together
[10:04]after coming out the other side.
[10:06]Yeah.
[10:07]Cool.
[10:08]What else do I have here?
[10:12]Oh, you write Girlhood and the experience
[10:15]of being a young woman so well.
[10:17]I feel like I can barely remember those years.
[10:19]And I'm like, first of all,
[10:20]do you have a crazy great memory?
[10:22]And second of all,
[10:23]like how do you get back into the mindset?
[10:25]I mean, there's not one,
[10:27]but I mean, there's a number of teenagers
[10:29]and young women in this book,
[10:31]not necessarily POVs,
[10:32]but they're all rendered so accurately.
[10:37]You know, I feel like anyone who was a teenage girl
[10:40]could relate to them in some way,
[10:42]even if this wasn't your lived experience.
[10:45]So how did you get into their mindset?
[10:47]So I have a terrible memory.
[10:49]Oh, that's a thing for that first part of your question.
[10:51]Like embarrassingly bad.
[10:53]I really can remember names and faces.
[10:55]I'm like creepily good at that,
[10:56]but like my own life, I forget a lot.
[10:59]Which is embarrassing.
[11:01]So no, it's not necessarily that I feel like I remember
[11:05]that feeling.
[11:05]So I mean, I guess that is maybe a part of my life though
[11:08]that just feels so technical or still because
[11:13]I mean, it's just like you're dealing with so many changes
[11:18]and you don't always have the tools
[11:20]to deal with those changes.
[11:21]It's like you're simultaneously like dismissed
[11:25]and villainized by society at the same time.
[11:30]Yeah, I mean, I hope things are different for teenage girls.
[11:33]Now, but like coming out of like the 90s and early aughts,
[11:36]all this stuff that was going on with like
[11:38]how we treated women in the spotlight and celebrity,
[11:40]like all those things we grew up learning about
[11:43]what it looked like to be a woman in the world.
[11:45]Like it's impossible not to take that in
[11:47]and have that effect like how you're perceiving yourself
[11:50]in the world.
[11:51]So I feel like having those kind of things
[11:54]feel like a referendum on what it meant to be
[11:55]a young woman in the world.
[11:57]This stuff I still carry with me and think about a lot.
[12:01]I feel like if I ever did a teenage character,
[12:03]I have all these like old diaries in a box in my garage
[12:07]that I feel like I would have to consult.
[12:09]But I'm like, I just like know that they would be like
[12:11]too cringy to like revisit that period.
[12:14]Yeah, just like I found a trove of like notes I had passed
[12:18]or people had passed me and I would like open to
[12:19]and I was like, these just have to go.
[12:21]Like I don't want my children to find this today,
[12:24]when I'm dead.
[12:25]It's not how I want to be remembered.
[12:27]I don't want to see this version of myself.
[12:30]Yeah, absolutely.
[12:32]The prologue, so a lot of times in thrillers,
[12:35]the prologue is, you know, we find a dead body
[12:39]and then the book is we go back in time
[12:41]and figure out how that dead body got there.
[12:43]But yours starts with a birth.
[12:45]And I was curious how you made that decision.
[12:49]You know, I think a lot of that was kind of subconscious
[12:52]because I mean, I guess to you with my first book,
[12:56]I started the thriller prologue with the multiple dead body.
[13:00]So I was like, I was in a way trying to avoid repeating myself
[13:04]and doing the same thing twice.
[13:06]I think, you know, this is a novel that is very still wrapped up
[13:10]in conversations about, you know, reproductive rights
[13:13]and being a woman in the world that we're living in.
[13:18]And so, and it's also like a time, you know,
[13:21]I wrote this book between the birth of my second and third kid.
[13:24]So it's like, I think a lot of that was just like,
[13:27]in my mind and my lived experience at the time.
[13:30]And it just felt like natural to me to start there,
[13:35]to start from a place of change.
[13:38]And, you know, like I always think you start a story
[13:39]from a place of change or from a place of mystery.
[13:44]And like, what are we seeing that's departing from normal life?
[13:47]In my first book, it was, the departure was like,
[13:49]there's, there's dead women and no one knows why they're here.
[13:51]What happens to them in this book, it's this big shift
[13:54]for this woman where she's given birth.
[13:56]And there's kind of some mystery.
[13:57]You can hopefully tell that there's some kind of mystery
[14:00]in her past around, you know, who she used,
[14:03]that she used to be someone else or that her life used
[14:06]to look different.
[14:07]So when you draft, do you start with the prologue
[14:09]and that like, right in chapter order?
[14:11]Or do you kind of move around?
[14:12]Or what's the typical process?
[14:13]I do. I try to work chronologically.
[14:15]I try to work, like, scene by scene.
[14:18]Sometimes I think I know something that I want to have
[14:21]happen later on, but I try not to jump around
[14:24]because I feel like you still need that to work through
[14:26]that connective tissue that gets you there.
[14:28]And even if I end up taking out a lot in between
[14:32]those places, like I just need to see,
[14:34]like where's my brain going to go if I need to connect,
[14:37]you know, all these plot points together.
[14:40]So you would write, you know, a Cali
[14:41]and then an animal chapter, not like all the Cali stuff
[14:44]and then all the animals.
[14:44]Yeah, I will switch back and forth.
[14:46]Yeah.
[14:47]And do you plot before you start writing?
[14:48]No, like, I wish I could plot before I start writing.
[14:54]I try and I don't stick to it.
[14:58]I might know a couple things that I want.
[15:00]to happen. But I feel like for a plot, I really just have to get everything wrong many times
[15:04]over in order to like stumble into the right plot for the book. Like I'm not a plot-y person by
[15:11]nature. That part's really hard for me. Interesting. I think it's incredible when thriller writers
[15:18]don't plot before they drift. I caught it. I go with incredible. Sure chaos. Because there's
[15:25]so many clues that you have to drop along the way. So how much did you know in terms of
[15:30]um did you know who the woman was that was giving birth? I'm trying to avoid spoilers. Did you
[15:37]at the center of this story? There's also a dead baby that is like this cold case that comes up.
[15:42]Like did you know whose baby it was? Like those kinds of things? I knew those things.
[15:46]Okay. Yeah. So I knew that and I was wondering how we were going to get back to that point.
[15:51]Okay. Yeah. That part of the plot was also inspired by some real life cases
[15:57]um which we're seeing more and more of lately in which women are being arrested and connection
[16:02]with abandoned babies who didn't survive um from a lot of times 80s 90s and they're using
[16:08]investigative genetic genealogy to try these women down which is the same technology we're using
[16:13]to hunt down serial killers and serial rapists and close those cases um so there's obviously
[16:18]enormous benefit to that but one of the questions I wanted the book to dig into was
[16:24]is that an application of justice that we're okay with? What is it? Is that justice if you know
[16:31]these women have gone on to live otherwise law abiding peaceful lives and had other children
[16:37]who have they've raised and become parts of their communities? What does it do to take these women
[16:42]out of all these communities and families that they've created? Does that create more trauma than
[16:47]the original crime? Yeah. Um and you read about these cases and usually the quotes and the cases
[16:53]are from like male detectives like thank god we finally got it you know and it's like right
[16:57]do you, is that really how we think about this? I mean it's a horrible thing and I don't want to
[17:01]completely um go also over like that tragedy of that loss of life but I do think it's really
[17:07]one of the things I wanted the book to take on was like yeah is this justice and what
[17:13]what does it mean about our society if we think that's yeah it just looks like you do it very
[17:19]sneakily because you don't know whose baby it is for a large portion of the book and by the time
[17:27]you find out who it is you have grown to really love that character and so something that we might
[17:33]have otherwise sort of judge someone for if that's the first thing we know about them
[17:37]instead we've gone through this whole you know this whole journey with them and so suddenly they
[17:43]really become a much more sympathetic character and similar to with please see us which
[17:49]takes on sort of like the plight of the danger that sex workers go through I'm curious if you
[17:55]find yourself sort of drawn to these communities that might be sort of overlooked or kind of
[18:02]looked down on. Totally I think those stories are always of interest to me yeah with please yes it
[18:10]was like I think it's interesting because I think the books are kind of asking like for the same
[18:16]side of one coin like please see us was asking like what happens if this crime goes unpunished and
[18:21]why is the violence against these particular women going unpunished and you know it's because
[18:29]you know these women have the history of drug use and sex work and in this book I think it's
[18:34]kind of like the opposite question is like what does it mean if we pursue these people and punish
[18:40]them yeah and yeah I think yeah there's like opposite questions I guess but yeah I those are always
[18:46]things I want to take up like what does it mean about our world based on who we punish and why
[18:52]yeah I think it's a I mean I was not aware of the history or not the history but like the trend
[18:58]now of kind of going after presumably mothers who have like abandoned babies so this is like
[19:04]I mean is it like in certain states that this is more prevalent or I don't know about in certain
[19:10]states that it's more prevalent I think the degree of punishment seems to vary from state to state
[19:15]I know in Ohio there's one woman who has been sentenced to life in prison without parole
[19:21]and she was like a church going grandmother who otherwise was like living a very normal peaceful life
[19:26]so yeah I think it differs the punishment kind of differs by state but yeah I don't know if
[19:34]different states to are being more aggressive than others as far as kind of seeking these cases
[19:39]that are certain police departments or yeah sure but to the irony of kind of using this
[19:45]technology that is punishing male perpetrators of multiple crimes and then using it in this way
[19:51]yeah yeah but the paradox of that was really interesting to me what did you find to be the most
[20:00]I mean, I don't like my books feature violence against women, but I, you know, it's not like I that's never easy for me to write.
[20:14]So that's always right.
[20:17]And I try to avoid like violence on the page as much as I can actually because like that always just feels like are you re-victimizing people who have already been like victimized in the narrative.
[20:28]I don't want to try to be really careful and thoughtful about that.
[20:31]So that is kind of hard to figure out how to toe that line right between being realistic and being careful about respecting the humanity of your characters.
[20:42]Because ultimately I always want to kind of keep the humanity of the characters in the foreground of the book.
[20:49]Job well done.
[20:50]I was saying to Halley before we started this chat, Caitlin really excels at not only writing these characters that you're just so drawn to and feel so empathetic toward.
[21:01]But then she's also got like the killer plot and twists and turns and as somebody who also does that for living, it's incredibly hard to juggle all of those balls in the air.
[21:11]And the fact that you don't plan anything before you do it is a real testament to your talent.
[21:17]Tell me how you play it like I'm going to interview you for like how much do you plan before you start?
[21:22]I mean I've gotten a little less stringent about it because the first few I did like have a sentence summary for each chapter before I would start drafting.
[21:32]But then I ended up tossing you know at least 100 of the 350 pages from each book.
[21:37]So I was like okay maybe this isn't serving me as well as I thought.
[21:40]But I think it's like a security blanket to like look there's a plan.
[21:44]There's no blank page that I have to face because there's a plan here.
[21:48]So you can outline and then you also maybe outline chapter details.
[21:52]Yeah I think I always start pretty macro and just sort of like I usually know where I want the book to start.
[21:58]And then I figure out where I want it to end.
[22:01]And then if I have like something in the middle.
[22:03]So it just depends on the book.
[22:05]Like I'm making it sound like I don't plan anything.
[22:08]But I do.
[22:09]It's just sometimes like I'll know certain like big plot points with them like stuff in the middle.
[22:14]I'm like okay I'll figure out how to get from G to you know H later or something.
[22:20]Yeah.
[22:21]That didn't make any sense because H comes right after G but you know what I'm saying.
[22:24]G to I enter here.
[22:26]There's letters are hard.
[22:27]I don't listen.
[22:28]G to D.
[22:29]So that would have been even more embarrassing.
[22:32]Okay plotting and pancing.
[22:34]There are options for everybody.
[22:36]This is this is kind of a random question but I was really curious.
[22:41]So I'm going to ask it anyway.
[22:42]There is a like romance subplot for Callie this character Adrienne.
[22:47]Who's like ultimately doesn't like really factor into like the A plot.
[22:52]But it was like an absolutely delightful character and great to read.
[22:56]And I'm curious why you decided to include it.
[22:58]I mean I think the book needed it.
[23:00]Like I think the book obviously takes on a lot of like heavy material.
[23:04]And I think it just like it's not necessary to the plot.
[23:08]Like it does come into play in the plot a little bit.
[23:10]But like there would have been other ways to achieve that.
[23:12]So like yeah I would definitely agree that it's not a plot.
[23:15]A relationship that's message to the plot.
[23:17]But I just felt like Callie goes through so much.
[23:20]Like her mother goes missing which I don't think I'm giving anything away to say that.
[23:25]Happens pretty early in the book.
[23:27]She's grew up with a lot of trauma herself.
[23:29]She's dealing with a lot of stuff at the station, discrimination,
[23:32]based on the fact that she's a woman.
[23:34]She gets a hard time from all of her subordinates.
[23:36]So she's dealing with so much stuff that I just felt like this character needs like one soft place to land in the book.
[23:42]She's got a friendship that's also pretty big in the book.
[23:45]But I was like I just want her to have something like this relationship.
[23:49]I want her to be like a good straight guy in the book, you know.
[23:53]Like so rare.
[23:55]I'm like I, you know I'm married to a lovely man.
[23:57]I am raising a son like I'm not like not all men are bad.
[24:01]There are a lot of bad men in this book.
[24:04]So I just felt like it needed the balance from like a tonal standpoint.
[24:07]I didn't want it to be too like just, you know, miserable.
[24:11]Yeah.
[24:12]We're talking about a lot of heavy topics but the book does not read heavy I would say.
[24:16]I mean there's like serious topics for sure.
[24:19]But it's not like, oh my god, just like, you know, constant grief every page.
[24:24]So don't let that dissuade you for me.
[24:27]I mean my whole, it's like the ponderings are weird place to like,
[24:30]even when you live in Jersey like there's always kind of like it's, you know, the butt of a lot of like,
[24:34]though there's a lot of dead bodies out there jokes.
[24:36]Yeah.
[24:37]So it's just like just a funny sort of area that it's own distinct personality.
[24:43]And so I do think like I just want some of this to be like, not there's no jokes,
[24:47]but there is like some humor I hope in like setting and how weird it is.
[24:51]And some of the characters like they're not like out and out funny,
[24:54]but I'm like some of these like side characters are totally like,
[24:57]the Weasley guys I went to high school with and I'm like,
[25:00]I know this South Jersey doc rat kind of guy.
[25:04]Did you go to the Pine Barons to write it all
[25:06]or just, you kind of knew it in your head enough to?
[25:10]I would go and I would like, I might do like a hike
[25:13]or I would go look at like,
[25:14]there's a lot of abandoned factory ruins in the Pine Barons
[25:16]because at one point it had been like a center
[25:18]up where there was a lot of iron ore being produced,
[25:22]timber, there's cranberry bogs.
[25:25]So, but you know, all of,
[25:27]there's still some cranberry bogs operational
[25:29]but like there have been a lot of like glass factories
[25:32]and now they're mostly reduced to like complete ruins
[25:34]in their places where like kids hang out
[25:36]and like drink and smoke and you know, whatever.
[25:38]That's how I carry on.
[25:40]So I would go out to like see some broins
[25:42]and check that out.
[25:43]So I would do stuff like that.
[25:44]I went on a guided moonlight hike in the Pine Barons
[25:47]which is really cool.
[25:48]Yeah.
[25:50]Yeah, you like wear a headline up and walk around the woods
[25:51]with like a group of people.
[25:53]Was it meant to be spooky?
[25:54]It was very beautiful.
[25:55]It was really peaceful, but like if I would never do it by myself
[25:59]like I don't even really like hiking by myself.
[26:01]Yeah, I'm just down there because
[26:02]again, you have no sole service.
[26:03]You're feeling really isolated.
[26:05]Um, you know, hiking is a woman alone
[26:08]and sometimes that feels okay.
[26:09]And sometimes you're like,
[26:10]yeah, there.
[26:12]So yeah, I would go down there and do that kind of stuff.
[26:16]I'm so intrigued by this place.
[26:17]Like I really, I don't know.
[26:19]I'm like kind of want to go now.
[26:20]Yeah.
[26:21]Do any like do people go to visit it
[26:24]or is it kind of like a place that's like New Jersey
[26:29]locals like back on?
[26:31]I would think it's both like there's a lot of like conservation
[26:35]people who are like really being forceful
[26:38]that protecting the pine barons now.
[26:39]Like data centers kind of like cropping up on the periphery.
[26:42]So there's like a big conservation movement happening right now.
[26:45]So I think people are really like,
[26:47]there's almost feels to me like there's been this like rebirth
[26:49]from it being like the butt of a lot of jokes to being like,
[26:52]this is a resource we have.
[26:53]And like this is something we have to care for and protect.
[26:56]And it's got this distinct ecology and this, you know,
[27:00]there's like rare orchids that bloom in the woods.
[27:03]And there's yeah, a lot of like bald eagle habitats.
[27:07]And it's really, yeah, it's kind of a very, very
[27:08]than interesting place.
[27:10]So yeah, it's a little bit of both.
[27:12]But there's like kayaking and canoeing tours you can do.
[27:16]Yeah.
[27:16]So yeah, I would say both.
[27:18]Maybe the reputation is being rehabilitated a little bit
[27:21]in the past.
[27:21]Yeah, decade or so.
[27:23]Is the book like, how many books have you started writing,
[27:28]even if you later abandoned them?
[27:30]A lot.
[27:33]I had two other book ideas.
[27:35]I was kind of toying around with after I abandoned that second book
[27:38]that I had written a full draft of.
[27:41]And I was kind of trying out a campus novel.
[27:44]And then I was like fiddling with something else.
[27:46]And I remember I called my agent.
[27:48]And I was like, OK, you got to help me.
[27:50]Like I have different ideas.
[27:51]And this one is just really calling to me
[27:54]for whatever reason.
[27:56]It's a little dark.
[27:56]I'm going to make a bit.
[27:57]And she was like, you have to write.
[27:58]Yeah.
[27:59]So at that point, I had been working on two other things that I
[28:02]was just kind of like, it was right after my song was born.
[28:06]So I wasn't working in a majorly concentrated way.
[28:10]But when I could, I was trying to write.
[28:14]And then yeah, I'm kind of doing the same thing now
[28:15]where I have two different projects.
[28:17]And I'm like, which one will win?
[28:19]Are they always set in New Jersey?
[28:21]So right now, I'm working on something
[28:22]that's set in central New York outside of Syracuse
[28:25]and something that is set in New Jersey.
[28:28]What's the appeal of Jersey?
[28:31]Sounds like pointed.
[28:33]But I don't mean it that way.
[28:34]I know it is because it's what you know.
[28:36]Or I know, I guess, I think I was thinking about this the other day.
[28:40]And I'm like, because I have three young kids,
[28:41]I also feel like I'm not going to be able to do a crazy research
[28:44]heavy book where I have to go take a trip to Italy
[28:47]for better or worse, and do something like that.
[28:50]I don't think at this time in my life like that's something
[28:53]that's going to happen.
[28:54]I do feel like because I start with place
[28:56]with both of these books, like both of my published books
[28:58]have been so rooted in place for me.
[29:00]And that's been such a big part of my process
[29:03]and what's been important in these novels
[29:05]that maybe it is just because that's kind of what's
[29:08]available to me to know well and easy for me to access.
[29:12]And if I need to go back somewhere a bunch of times,
[29:14]like I did with the primary, and I can do that.
[29:18]But that's that I'm trying to experiment
[29:19]with getting out of Jersey.
[29:21]That's a very smart move.
[29:22]Instead of what I do is set my books in the cat skills
[29:26]in a treehouse Airbnb, which is impossible to get to.
[29:29]And then you get to go to a treehouse ceremony in the room.
[29:32]But your books feel like you can tell
[29:35]I think that you either lived in these areas
[29:39]or you know them very, very well.
[29:40]Like it doesn't surprise me that you start setting first
[29:43]because it really is just like so evocative.
[29:46]And you just really feel like a local is kind of guiding you
[29:48]around all that.
[29:51]Yeah, I think I've tried to write about two places that
[29:53]are maybe not valorized in any way.
[29:57]Like Atlantic City, my first post post
[29:59]at Nominex City.
[30:00]which like people obviously know of Atlantic City,
[30:02]but I think like I worked there
[30:03]and lived outside of Atlantic City as a teenager,
[30:06]like with my family.
[30:06]And so it was like these places that I think are like misunderstood
[30:10]or aren't kind of looked at in fiction.
[30:13]Yeah, like I hadn't read anything set
[30:14]in either of these two places in fiction.
[30:15]So I think that was a draw from two to be like,
[30:18]I haven't seen this represented like what can I do?
[30:21]That feels new to me on the page
[30:24]and hope that other people like care about it
[30:26]and want to read about it.
[30:27]And with your current works and progress
[30:29]for those setting first too.
[30:31]Yeah.
[30:33]Yeah, I guess I will send anything.
[30:35]It's okay.
[30:36]No, I don't have to be too coy.
[30:39]The one set in upstate New York is set in the 70s.
[30:43]And it's like also a coming of age story
[30:46]like centered on like younger women.
[30:52]But there's a murder that takes place in high school.
[30:55]Oh, they got that for now.
[30:59]And then I'm working on something that would be
[31:02]a set that Jersey Shore where a woman has to take her
[31:06]estranged husband's place on a scallop fishing boat
[31:08]when he dies under mysterious circumstances.
[31:10]Sure, that was one does.
[31:11]I have to let see if someone will let me look at their scallop
[31:14]fishing.
[31:15]Yeah, you have an uncle who does scallop fishing.
[31:17]I think I need to get somewhere uncles.
[31:19]Palmer, that's a hammer.
[31:21]So it's very interesting to me that like twice now
[31:25]you've just like started working on two novels at the same time.
[31:29]It's great, I don't recommend it.
[31:31]At one point will you just be like, it's this one?
[31:34]Yes, are you hoping to eventually complete and finish both?
[31:37]No, I think I'll make myself crazy.
[31:39]And like I think I have to make peace
[31:40]with like one of them is going to be like the winner.
[31:43]That's crazy.
[31:44]And it's a crazy price.
[31:45]I don't spend it.
[31:46]Like I said, it's not far into each one of you.
[31:50]She's like 90,000 words.
[31:52]Yeah, pretty far into the upstate.
[31:53]I mean, I've been working on that along like this past year
[31:56]and it's been hard to like figure out the structure, I think.
[31:59]Which maybe it's like starting something new.
[32:01]There's the belief of like new problems.
[32:04]Yeah, I still have problems with this other book
[32:07]that I figure out, but at least they're like new problems
[32:09]or something refreshing.
[32:11]Do you notice them like parallels or overlaps
[32:13]and in the stories or the two totally different concerns?
[32:18]Totally different, I think.
[32:20]So there won't be any characters migrating from one to the other.
[32:23]I don't think so for this one.
[32:24]That would be very surprising.
[32:26]I mean, I do think there's like,
[32:27]thematically some of the same things,
[32:29]like being a woman in a man's world with two particular characters
[32:33]who are like the only women in their field.
[32:36]I just always think that's an interesting dynamic for me.
[32:40]But yeah, not characters who are crossing over.
[32:43]I don't think, unless anything really weird happens.
[32:45]Anything could happen.
[32:46]Time travel from the 70s to now.
[32:48]Yeah.
[32:49]Oh yeah, good point.
[32:50]Yeah, they'd be much older.
[32:51]Yeah.
[32:52]Like really old.
[32:54]But you know what I'm going to, yeah, interesting.
[32:58]I think we're about ready to open it up
[33:00]to audience questions if anyone has one.
[33:02]Or if you guys need more time to think,
[33:05]I can just keep measuring away.
[33:08]Yes.
[33:09]Yeah, I would just wondering not
[33:10]that I don't want to spoil police.
[33:12]Yes, I felt like less of a good done it.
[33:17]And still so enthralling in the pace.
[33:19]But this feels like more of a, you know,
[33:22]like we've done it, and I was wondering,
[33:23]was that daunting to make sure?
[33:27]Because the payoff is so great at the end.
[33:29]But with a daunting point, make sure
[33:31]that lift up in the end when you've revealed.
[33:35]Yeah, the who done it aspect.
[33:36]Like I think that was another like kind of craft challenge
[33:39]was like, OK, my last book, like the point of the novel
[33:42]is that like, you know, and I don't think I'm giving anything
[33:44]away by saying, like, you don't find out who the killer is
[33:46]in the first part of the novel.
[33:47]Because sometimes that's life.
[33:49]You don't, you know, you don't get justice in the way
[33:52]you want or expect it.
[33:55]But yeah, so for this book, I was like, well,
[33:56]I feel like this is a book.
[33:58]Again, to do something different from what I've done before.
[34:00]This is a book that I want like a closure
[34:02]and like a hard kind of stop to.
[34:05]So yeah, that was really hard.
[34:06]And I also, though, I liked having like knowing
[34:11]that I had to get to that ending, even if I didn't know
[34:14]how I was going to get there all the time.
[34:15]Like I liked knowing like, OK, I'm going to tie this all up.
[34:18]And I know these things have to come together.
[34:20]And these balls in the air are all going to like, you know,
[34:24]everything's going to be solved.
[34:27]See, but it was a completely different mode of working
[34:29]than plotting Placius, which like didn't
[34:32]need that kind of tidy resolution.
[34:34]Did you know who the guiltiest of guilty parties was?
[34:38]So I can call them that because I did.
[34:41]Yeah.
[34:42]It's from the beginning.
[34:42]Yeah.
[34:43]OK, I knew that.
[34:44]Interesting.
[34:45]That's a pretty important thing.
[34:46]Yeah.
[34:47]OK.
[34:48]All right, anybody else?
[34:51]Yeah.
[34:52]Please see us on a major award.
[34:55]What are the pressures for your second book?
[34:57]Yeah, second books are really hard.
[34:59]I psyched.
[35:00]myself out a lot. Like while I was writing, everyone, like, you know, the
[35:04]sophomore slump even in publishing, I feel like people talk about which is
[35:08]like hard to have in your head. I mean, I think my goal for each book is to
[35:12]just like for it to do well enough that I get to write another book. Like this
[35:15]is, you know, how I'm choosing to spend my time and live my life. Like you can't
[35:20]control a lot of that or any of it really, like the outside reception, the
[35:26]war, like, you know, that stuff is awesome and exciting, but it's like, that
[35:29]is so far out of your control. And like the book and the work is what you can
[35:34]control. So it's like, it is, I mean, I know people say that and it maybe
[35:37]sounds glib or cheesy, but I do think like you have to make doing the work the
[35:43]best part of it and the part you like the most. And then I did feel like, and
[35:47]because please, yes, came out during COVID, I think with this book, I was like, oh, at
[35:51]least I'm going to get to like, see people and do events. And so it's all, it's
[35:56]all up from there, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was good, yeah.
[36:04]You, you had this thought at the beginning when you were talking about becoming
[36:09]the mother and how this potentially could not allow you to create. Yeah, can
[36:17]you talk to us, obviously, that wasn't real.
[36:19]And you talked to us a little bit about motherhood and writing. Yeah. So it's
[36:26]interesting because I was really in my head about like being a mom and having
[36:29]to like prove that I could still write after my first kid, I put a ton of
[36:33]pressure on myself and looking back, like, I wish I hadn't put that much
[36:36]pressure on myself, obviously. Because I do think having kids, especially multiple
[36:43]kids has taught me to like take a breath and like, live your life and, and you
[36:48]know, you have to de-center your work in a lot of ways with kids in ways that
[36:51]are actually really helpful. I also think having, like, I don't think I would
[36:59]have told this particular story. If I didn't have kids, I just think having kids
[37:03]like turned to me toward these particular stories as they weave together in
[37:08]this book in a way that like, maybe I wasn't thinking about before I had kids.
[37:13]That's that, you know, like the time constraints are very real. And you know,
[37:17]there were parts, there were, I felt like, months when I was writing this book
[37:20]where like my whole family had a stomach bug and then got a stomach bug again.
[37:23]And I just felt like, well, that's, I'm never going to get back to my desk. So I
[37:28]don't want to gloss over that. But, and I do also, you know, have child care
[37:32]for my two older children, which is, is huge. And, and enormous privilege that,
[37:37]you know, and, you know, now my daughter, my oldest is in school all day, public
[37:41]school, but like when I was writing this, she was in all day preschool, my
[37:45]son is in all day preschool. The pasture I've had a baby home with me. But
[37:49]even then, you know, like when the baby naps, I get an hour and a half. And then
[37:53]I get an hour and a half later. So it's like, you can do the work in those
[37:57]constraints. So yeah, I think it's like a push pull that I, that I had to
[38:03]learn to navigate and had to learn to like get my head around to. But I
[38:07]also added more ease when I've had like roadblocks, like when someone's
[38:11]like, you're like, you know, I'm just gonna enjoy the day like hanging with a
[38:13]four year old. Like, okay, we're gonna play trucks in the basement. And that's the
[38:16]day. Like, I have to make peace with that. And, you know, like, it's just I feel
[38:22]like your life has to be your work, not the other way around. I'm curious what
[38:26]you mean when you said if you hadn't had kids, you wouldn't have told this
[38:30]story. Like, how did it influence it? I think my kind of like outrage at the
[38:36]way we treat mothers. Yeah. Kind of it's, you know, fine tuned during the
[38:43]pandemic particularly. And I think that maybe like made me more receptive to
[38:49]those stories. I was reading in the news about these mothers being charged with
[38:53]crimes. And the questions I was asking about what motherhood looks like and
[38:58]what we expect of mothers in this society, which is like to give up
[39:01]everything all the time. Like, yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. And so I think those
[39:07]questions were at play in a bigger way than maybe if I hadn't had kids. Yeah.
[39:11]Yeah, makes sense. So you talked about a couple of craft or challenges that you
[39:19]were trying to say yourself in this book. But also how you kind of have the
[39:23]dueling books into one witness out. And so how do you differentiate between, oh,
[39:28]this is a craft challenge that I find remarkable and enjoyable. Or, you
[39:33]know, this versus this isn't coming together. And like, where's the dividing line
[39:38]for you? I think it has to do with like a gut feeling. Like, I think if I'm still
[39:43]feeling excited about a book, even if I don't know the answer to all the
[39:46]questions about it or it feels hard versus like I think with the other
[39:52]book. What I think happened with that book is was it was like all premise and
[39:57]and it's not enough like character.
[40:00]development to support the premise. Like it had a really good premise. And then I
[40:05]couldn't write the book around the premise. And I think like I feel like you see a
[40:09]lot of writing advice that's like, no, the hook of your book. But I'm like, the book has
[40:12]to come first to me. I don't know. Maybe that works for other people. So versus having
[40:17]like a craft challenge that I think, and I think most of the craft challenges I gave myself
[40:22]for this book were kind of in reaction to the last book. So it's like, okay, what's going
[40:25]to be the craft challenge for these next books? Like I'm not totally sure yet, but
[40:30]I do want to try to make sure I'm trying something new, and that the work feels like
[40:35]my themes are probably always going to be the same. And you know, so far I've written
[40:38]about the kind of same types of characters or archetypes. So that might just carry through
[40:43]all my work because like your stuffs, your stuff. Some people are more varied. I don't know
[40:49]that I am in terms of like theme in that regard. So yeah, I think the craft challenge more
[40:54]is like a feels exciting to me, even if it's difficult. I think maybe that's the distinction
[41:01]I would make.
[41:04]So back to the process of finding out the non-clotting. So do you write like a whole draft
[41:11]and then see like, okay, it's not hanging together, or do you like work your way? Like
[41:14]if you write yourself into a plot issue, you stop and fix it before going forward, or like
[41:19]what's your kind of process like that?
[41:20]So this I'll write like what I call like the half draft, which is like get to like
[41:24]halfway through the book and then I start over. I just want really, it's completely inefficient
[41:33]and crazy. And then I like what I need to carry over will kind of stick in my head and
[41:39]I'll know. And then after that I try to make myself complete a full draft.
[41:42]Do you mean you do it from scratch like you don't work off?
[41:45]Yeah.
[41:46]I'm for whatever reason like really I try to be really okay with throwing material out
[41:52]which is hard, but like I just have to think like there's more where that came from
[41:57]and this will give you a chance of surprise yourself and make everything feel fresh instead
[42:03]of being like let me hang on to this chunk because it makes me feel better for this word
[42:07]count to say 20,000, you know, that like mental reassurance. I try not to like give myself
[42:14]that easy comforts of that kind of thing even if it feels totally bonkers in the process.
[42:20]So yeah, it's a lot of like iterative like just throwing out, starting over, throwing
[42:26]out, starting over. And that's so far been my process.
[42:34]So in your first book, you said that you you don't find out we did it.
[42:39]Yeah, it's when you do go to your working on now. Do you know yet?
[42:44]Have you decided yet?
[42:45]Which everyone wins? Like you decided if you're going to find out who did it or?
[42:51]I think in both you would. I think for the stories to feel satisfying, I think you would.
[42:57]I do like stories like I don't know if you think about like in the woods by Tana French
[43:01]or like you solve the main mystery, but there's still like a mystery that kind of lingers.
[43:05]I think that's also like a really kind of like elegant and cool thing to do.
[43:09]Like this book I do feel like everything was pretty like buttoned up. So it's like maybe
[43:13]I would try something like that or like it does feel true to life to me that you just
[43:17]have questions even if like from a reading experience sometimes you're like wait a minute.
[43:20]Like I wanted to find out and it's like yes, and in the woods, I really wanted to know
[43:24]what happened in the woods, but you don't. And like that's also life and memory.
[43:30]And I think structure can be a reflection on like life and what it's like to be a person.
[43:35]Yeah, I don't know. So I think that's kind of an interesting move. So there's opportunities to
[43:39]do something like that. I'd be interested in finding those. But yeah, I think for the main part,
[43:44]I think the two kind of plots would have to be tied up for them to feel done.
[43:54]Yeah. So I mean, I'm not a mother. So it's like I have a little more lingerie at time,
[43:59]but when like in writing, I'll sit down and I'll edit when I wrote the day before and before
[44:07]I start writing for the new day. And I'm wondering when you say you write your half draft,
[44:11]you just like straight through no editing as you go. And yeah, which is also like I feel like if I
[44:20]I mean, I just feel like there's so many ways to get from A to B. And like that's one that
[44:24]added as you go and have anything feel like clean. For me, I just I think those drafts are
[44:30]a way for me to like experience what a character is or what who they're not. And like test out
[44:37]plot problems. So like for me because I have a hard time with plot and I like churn through so many
[44:42]different avenues. It doesn't make sense for me to like polish everything super nicely or like
[44:48]because then I'll start to get attached to the sentences and be like, oh, well, I can't
[44:51]tell you that because I worked really hard and I think it sounds good even if it doesn't
[44:56]belong in the book. So I feel like I don't do that probably
[45:00]will further on to like a second or third draft. And then I'm really like revising a little
[45:03]bit before I dig back in or like looking at sort of the pros more deeply. But I try not
[45:09]to be too attached anything early on. How many drafts did this book go through?
[45:14]I mean I think like five or six. And then my editor and I did a pretty big edit once it
[45:23]was acquired. We were went back and forth but I think like seven months and did like a pretty
[45:28]big overhaul. But ever six before it saw the light of day. Yeah, you shared it with
[45:34]anything. Yeah, I tried to share things as late as humanly possible. Which I, you know,
[45:40]I feel like I probably could get better at like involving beta readers in sooner or something.
[45:44]I might like to try with the next couple of books. But like I try to hold things in as long
[45:50]as possible. And then like I'll eventually like my agent is usually the first person one of the
[45:54]first people to read. But I try to wait as late in the game to do that. Do you take like
[46:00]do you kind of put it away for a certain period of time? Because I feel like one of the issues
[46:04]I run into when I'm just working on my own is you like start to lose any objectivity.
[46:11]Because you like what's draft was that? And so like how do you keep just doing it just on your
[46:16]own for five or six drafts? I mean I think that is a way in which like having kids kind of build that
[46:21]into my life naturally because really it's summer. And so there are kind of like natural points
[46:28]at which that's just going to happen for me anyway. But yeah, it's not. I do still try to be like
[46:33]okay, I'm going to take at least two weeks away and I'm going to read a lot. And then I usually
[46:37]find like oh, I can't wait to get back to it because I'm reading something that makes me feel
[46:41]really excited. Or like I feel like anxious to be back in the work. But I do try to give myself
[46:47]breaks between drafts because I do think you need it. And I think yeah, it helps you come back
[46:51]to the work like kind of smarter and you know gives you that perspective. Even as it's hard
[46:56]because like you always I'm not being productive. You know that's yeah, just I think that kind of
[47:01]voice in your brain will pipe up. You need to do more. What novels were guiding lights for you?
[47:11]I always go back to all things ceased to appear by Elizabeth Brundage which if you guys haven't
[47:16]read it, it's a really beautiful mystery. It's fascinating. It sat in the 1970s in a farmhouse in
[47:23]like the Hudson Valley. And it's kind of like it's got a big like commute like small-time community
[47:30]that it really fleshes out in a beautiful way. There's like if there's gothic elements,
[47:34]they're a literal ghost in the novel. But it's not like horror in any way. It's really like
[47:41]elegantly done. It's beautiful prose. I just think the way she builds out her characters and
[47:46]you know you fall in love with these people. But it's also got this deep mystery at its core that I
[47:51]really like. What else? No, it's not an execution by Donnie Kukofka. I love that book so much. I admire
[47:59]that book so much. And I think she used a second person in a really beautiful way in that book.
[48:03]So I was turning to that a lot. And I think her prose is just really beautiful. And
[48:08]again, and I think that was such an empathetic book even as it took on a lot of really difficult
[48:14]situations and characters. Yeah, that's one of my favorites too. Yeah.
[48:20]Do you live in New Jersey or New York? I live in New Jersey now. I lived in New York for a long time.
[48:26]And now I'm in Princeton, New Jersey. And you grew up there?
[48:30]So I moved around a bit as I was a kid because my dad worked for casinos. So I grew up in like
[48:35]South Jersey kind of in like near the Pine Barons. And my family moved to upstate New York. And
[48:42]then we moved back to New Jersey outside of Atlantic City. And then I moved to Brooklyn after
[48:46]I graduated college. And then back to Jersey during the pandemic. So I've kind of always been
[48:51]drawn back to Jersey.
[48:56]Well, I'm just wondering I have a question about facing you. I was surprised you said that you
[49:02]stopped happy through because so many books have that problem where you get to the middle slog.
[49:09]And I feel like this book just kept building and building this sense of dread. And I just want
[49:15]to keep reading. And so I was I was just wondering, is there a certain part of the book that's the
[49:20]hardest to write a certain part that's easiest to write and how do you keep up and face the route.
[49:25]So you're not like having a book with filler, but just keeping building.
[49:30]Yeah, I think the middle is definitely the hardest because it's like you have to try to maintain
[49:34]some of that urgency and that can feel hard when you're also trying to like, you know, do character
[49:40]building work. And you know, beginnings, I always find you not easy, but I feel like, you know,
[49:47]it feels fun to start something new. And there's that rush of excitement. And then you get to the
[49:51]middle and you're like, have just questions, you know, something more questions than answers.
[49:54]So I do feel like I kind of starting over at the middle point. You like
[50:00]starting over again or it like it forces me to like find a place of
[50:04]emergency versus like letting that glut kind of happen because you have to
[50:09]look again at the beginning and setting things up and and what are the I think
[50:13]I'm always trying to ask like what information does the reader have at this
[50:16]point? What questions do they have at this point? Are those interesting
[50:20]questions? And I think like trying to turn it on the reader so like are those
[50:25]interesting enough questions or do I need to look again about like what they
[50:28]know or don't know at this point? And if those questions aren't
[50:31]interesting like what else can happen to like animate this part of the book
[50:34]and make them have interesting questions about what's going on? How much do you
[50:38]think about the reader as you write? I was like you know early drafts like I
[50:43]do try to kind of keep that urgency in mind. That is something I kind of
[50:48]assessed after I finished a first draft in a more structured way like I will
[50:53]break out each chapter and I'll get index cards and on each index card I'll
[50:57]write like what does the reader learn in this chapter and what questions
[51:01]they have and I'll do that for every chapter and I'll do that as many times
[51:05]and it's like sometimes you look at a chapter like they didn't really learn
[51:07]much like this needs to be a different scene or this question is kind of like
[51:12]this chapter brings up the same question as the last chapter and it's not
[51:15]being complicated in a way that I think is interesting or new so I do kind of
[51:21]try to do that several times to make sure that things from like a tension
[51:25]did plot standpoint or or you know interesting and dynamic.
[51:34]Any what else?
[51:37]I've read some people have likened it to your book to like Mary's now the show.
[51:44]I love it and I have not read your book but it doesn't even like that. It's very
[51:49]perfect. I mean from your lips to like yeah I know that I would love to see it
[52:00]adapted that would be really fun. Some people I feel like are really good at
[52:03]like casting their work before they start or as they're running. I don't
[52:06]necessarily have that like visual mindset so I'm not like this is who plays
[52:11]Kali in my head like I don't think that way but yeah I would love to see it
[52:16]on the screen I think that would be really cool. Yeah there's someone I
[52:29]follow on Instagram and he's like here's the cast for your book and I'm like I
[52:32]love that like you have a brilliance like a gift for this I don't have that
[52:35]gift but I'm like yeah it should be that. It's really fun. I think you have
[52:41]like Riley Kio for Kali as the main detective city have. I'll have to look
[52:47]at it again. I don't remember any of this. Who's Annabelle others? I can't
[52:51]like a young see I don't know a lot of young acts because I don't know this
[52:55]like young. Sometimes I think well like Kali's name her mom was an aspiring
[53:07]musician and had her quite young and so she named her kalai. After like the
[53:12]muse of music and song but of course Kali like you know rubbed against that
[53:17]and hated that so short that from kalai pita Kali. So that was like a kind of
[53:21]character history based name and that ties in. This is very much a book about
[53:26]like brothers and daughters and so that was like a name that tied in I think
[53:29]thematically. It does not always work that way but I and I think like Annabelle
[53:36]I think she I wanted like a softer name for her because she does feel like
[53:41]this like vulnerable character and I wanted that to match her. I mean she you
[53:46]know has her definitely moments of the survivorship and grit but like for
[53:51]most of the book and also thinking like 90s names or twin sister Sabrina. I had a
[53:55]babysitter named Sabrina as a kid and like as growing up I just thought that
[53:59]was like the quintessential teenager. Like you know looked up to her all my
[54:05]whole life like you know so yeah sometimes they like are kind of drawn from
[54:10]people I might have known or known but and then other times I just like kind of
[54:14]go for like what sounds right.
[54:17]I know you're the focus but can you just like give us a little summary on your
[54:29]books. Yeah oh sure so the Hitchcock. I got I haven't pitched this book in so
[54:36]long it came out two years ago. It's awesome. Actually can I just talk about my
[54:40]book that's coming out November. I don't have a copy of it but my new book is
[54:46]called Revenge Plot. That's coming out November. That is about an aspiring
[54:52]writer who has been turned down by this literary agent that he really wants to
[54:57]represent him. He's got this book that he's written.
[55:00]And he thinks she unfairly turned him down.
[55:02]So he decides to show up at her Airbnb in the Catskills
[55:06]on Christmas Day.
[55:08]And he's like, I'm not leaving until you read this thing.
[55:11]And the sort of twister hook of it
[55:14]as that the book is about her.
[55:16]He's got a sort of past with her.
[55:18]And he's got a bone to pick with her beyond that.
[55:20]So I didn't mean to just like crap on my other book.
[55:25]He like refused to tell you what this book is about.
[55:28]I mean, that's good, it's very close to your sound, you know.
[55:33]So yeah, it's anyone.
[55:37]Thank you guys.
[55:38]Thank you so much for all of your questions.
[55:41]Thank you for being here.
[55:42]Please, please buy the coffee if you haven't already.