Author Event! Lindsay Bartels, Imogen in Waiting, and Carol Lin, When News Breaks
[0:00]have gathered from all different walks of my life.
[0:05]And so it's just really, really amazing to see everyone.
[0:09]The writing program that I was in Carol was also in.
[0:13]So it's really fun to see her off the screen and in real life.
[0:18]Same with this amazing human Harrison in the front row,
[0:21]like just a writer's best friend to help get the words on the page.
[0:25]And so special to have you here.
[0:28]And then childhood friends, friends from my pre-children days that are still friends
[0:34]and friends of my husbands that have become my friends that are here,
[0:38]that are self-African and it's just so special.
[0:40]So I'm also my friend, best these here too.
[0:43]So it's just thanks everybody for coming and some of Carol's dear friends as well.
[0:48]And I just wanted to introduce Carol to those who don't know her and be totally
[0:53]professional and read your bio.
[0:57]Just so everybody knows because to me, she's just Carol, the awesome writer.
[1:02]But there is so much more to Carol amongst her book here when news breaks,
[1:07]which is an amazing memoir that you should get if you don't know about it.
[1:11]And I'll tell you her bio.
[1:13]So Carol is best known for being the first national anchor to report on the first
[1:19]9-11 attack on the World Trade Center.
[1:22]I mean, that was a big moment.
[1:24]Carol was a long time anchor and correspondent for CNN and ABC News.
[1:29]And during her career, she covered the war in the Middle East.
[1:33]The aftermath of the Kosovo War, the 2002 Winter Olympics,
[1:38]and every imaginable natural disaster from hurricanes, tornadoes,
[1:42]historic wildfires and floods.
[1:45]And Carol Lynn received an Emmy, a Peabody,
[1:50]that Alfred, I do want to award the greater Los Angeles press club awards
[1:55]for excellence in both investigative reporting and her coverage of the Los
[2:01]Angeles rights.
[2:02]She lives in Hawaii and she's here with us today, which is so incredible.
[2:06]So just around the applause for Carol.
[2:08]Oh my gosh.
[2:10]Yes.
[2:11]Now back to Lindsay.
[2:12]But I'm happy to be back to you, Lindsay.
[2:15]She was such an accomplished person.
[2:19]So thank you.
[2:19]No, such a pleasure to be here.
[2:21]And this is what books do.
[2:23]They bring people together.
[2:25]And Harrison is from one of the leaders of our writing program
[2:30]that brought us together.
[2:31]So it's so fun to see you.
[2:33]Thanks for being here.
[2:34]And Josh Magowitz.
[2:37]So I know Josh first as friend because everybody always introduces you first
[2:45]as NBC date lines, Josh Magowitz.
[2:47]But Josh Magowitz is friend and his lovely wife, T, a successful entrepreneur and woman
[2:53]in her own right, whom he had the God-given sense to marry.
[3:00]So and Nick, who supports authors in publicity.
[3:06]And so this room is just filled with love.
[3:08]And you have brought this room together, Lindsay.
[3:10]And this book is doing this.
[3:15]This book is phenomenal.
[3:16]And I read Lindsay's very first draft.
[3:21]And to see the evolution of this story is mind-blowing.
[3:26]Because you always had the title in mind.
[3:30]No, I didn't actually.
[3:31]I thought you did because the draft I had,
[3:34]I thought the draft I had had the title.
[3:36]So we're going to do what we're going to do.
[3:41]Yes.
[3:42]What we're going to do, I think today,
[3:44]is we really want to give you a peek inside the very beginning.
[3:50]Like, how does this start?
[3:51]How did this happen?
[3:53]Because this is what, two years, three years of devotion, right?
[3:58]A real deep thought process and discovery.
[4:00]And it's such a personal, lovely story.
[4:03]And it's lyrical and evocative.
[4:05]And there's so many interesting things about it
[4:07]that we're going to get into,
[4:09]like, we're going to start with the writing process.
[4:11]And you know, yeah.
[4:15]So I don't think a lot of people
[4:18]know what the book's about.
[4:19]So I'll just tell you really quickly, the elevator pitch.
[4:23]It is my story of being a carrier of the cancer-causing
[4:28]genetic mutation called BRCA1, as told to an embryo
[4:32]that I have that I also know is female
[4:34]and carries this genetic mutation who, in the story,
[4:38]I call imaging.
[4:40]And this big question I wrestle with for about five years,
[4:43]but this book covers about a decade of my life
[4:45]where I wonder whether or not to bring her into being
[4:48]given my experience having cancer in my early 20s.
[4:53]And so I had a hysterectomy right before me.
[5:00]before I turned 40, and at that point in my life,
[5:03]I was forced to rest and not look after the children I have,
[5:07]and it was kind of a time where I was like,
[5:09]oh, I could be creative again,
[5:12]and now that I'm not taking care of everyone's needs,
[5:16]my own creative needs were appearing again,
[5:19]and I was like, I wanna write, and I have a friend here
[5:22]who I told this fiction story idea to,
[5:26]and we were bouncing off ideas, and it was really fun,
[5:28]and then I sat down to write that one,
[5:32]and a lot of this story was starting to come out,
[5:34]and I was like, I think I need to tell this first,
[5:36]and I had another writer friend in Colorado
[5:39]at the time was like, this is an important story,
[5:42]and it's worth it, and I am just gonna like,
[5:46]go and answer all your questions
[5:47]before you even ask my questions, sorry,
[5:50]but I didn't want to write it in a silo.
[5:53]I got a questions girl.
[5:54]Yeah, okay, go ahead and end up.
[5:57]And I found this online writing program
[6:00]called The Book Incubator through Mary Adkins' podcast
[6:03]called The First Draft Club,
[6:04]and she made it feel so accessible to write a book
[6:07]and actually get to the finish line of a finished product
[6:11]that actually could sit in the market
[6:13]and be publishable because there's an actual editor
[6:16]in the program and mentors and support along the way,
[6:20]and so I said sign me up, and that's where it began,
[6:24]and that's where I met Carol.
[6:26]So I'm gonna roll you back to feeling,
[6:30]this moment where it, and you take us full arc
[6:34]through that a medical journey,
[6:35]but also a very personal journey,
[6:37]and I find it very interesting that you describe
[6:41]making space for yourself in this super busy life
[6:45]where we can lose ourselves in the activity of the day,
[6:48]right, being the wife, being the mother,
[6:51]and then also taking your health into consideration,
[6:54]but in this quiet space, you're lying there,
[6:57]and you're thinking about this story,
[7:00]what initially did you think it was going to be?
[7:03]I mean, did you have an idea of what you wanted to write
[7:06]and the why behind it?
[7:08]For this one, not when I was in that space.
[7:11]No, I was trying to not think about life so seriously,
[7:16]because when you're healing from something,
[7:19]maybe some more philosophical quantifications
[7:22]come to light, and I was like,
[7:23]maybe I could write a story about death
[7:25]where I don't take it so seriously,
[7:29]but that didn't quite hit the mark for me,
[7:31]and as I kind of kept trying to write something,
[7:38]this came to mind as a way to remember the journey I went
[7:43]through, because this conundrum of whether or not
[7:47]to bring a child to life that has the tendency
[7:51]to get cancer is such a nuanced, challenging,
[7:56]moral question that even after answering it for myself,
[8:00]I still thought about it.
[8:01]So I was like, I think if I write it down and capture it,
[8:04]it'll be a great way to share this experience
[8:07]and kind of normalize it,
[8:08]because I did hear of other friends that have had embryos
[8:11]on ice and gone through IVF,
[8:12]and just don't have any personal stories
[8:15]to reflect on their own experiences with.
[8:17]So you just said personal story,
[8:19]and one of the things that really strikes me
[8:21]about imaging and waiting is the very personal nature
[8:25]behind these very serious medical decisions.
[8:29]So when you write memoir, we discovered in our writing program,
[8:33]you really have to reward the reader.
[8:36]You have to give the reader what they're expecting,
[8:38]and I think that's part of the struggle,
[8:40]how personal, how deep, how much detail.
[8:44]So when our publisher at Third Rail Press
[8:47]was promoting the book,
[8:48]she posed it as an intriguing question for the reader.
[8:52]What's it like for a 26-year-old woman
[8:55]to discover that she has breast cancer
[8:58]and brought up one positive
[9:00]and has to preserve her fertility
[9:02]and just started dating this guy.
[9:05]And he was gonna be the most likely candidate
[9:08]to be the biological father of her children.
[9:10]And I'm like, yes, I wanna read that book,
[9:13]because what is it like?
[9:16]And so in this process,
[9:18]so you enter this writing program,
[9:21]and it's somewhat guided,
[9:23]but did you find that in some ways
[9:27]you were in dialogue with your own ideas?
[9:29]Like what do I wanna write and things come to you?
[9:32]And it's almost like for me,
[9:34]it felt like a call and response,
[9:36]and something that you just said
[9:38]made reminded me of that.
[9:40]Like you have an idea,
[9:42]and you think you're gonna write about one thing, right?
[9:44]Like you were gonna talk about,
[9:46]you had encountered this idea of death
[9:48]and maybe you wanted to write it,
[9:50]but then something else comes to you
[9:52]that's wholly surprising.
[9:54]And I feel like that's what I'm hearing
[9:56]in kind of the early process of what is this book gonna be?
[10:00]Well, so the spoiler I was giving earlier wasn't going to give is I first called the book Dear Embryo
[10:07]Because I I knew I had this embryo and I always was looking at this entity potential entity as an embryo and
[10:14]I wrote this little note in the beginning of my story
[10:17]Which is still the same that it is today
[10:19]But then I just like told my whole story and I was like this happened and this happened and
[10:24]Clefanger cliffhanger, but this is real life and this happened and Carol as one of my first
[10:30]readers was so great. She was like, I want to know more
[10:34]Lindsay give me more detail and tell me more about you and tell me more about mark my husband now
[10:42]Tell me more about
[10:44]This embryo like it's your daughter like give me more
[10:48]Oh my god, I think I can give it any more
[10:51]It took a while to get to like a deeper level and then
[10:57]Personify the embryo as image in which just allowed everybody to get to that deeper level with me
[11:04]Yeah, and I think you do it in a way that
[11:08]Separates imaging and waiting from all that other dialogue like you don't think of
[11:15]Image in as an embryo even though it's very clear that you're communicating with her and I'm wondering if I could invite you to read the first page because
[11:25]This was an unexpected gift in the evolution of the manuscript and I'm like oh, yes Lindsay. Yes, we're gonna. We're just gonna go there
[11:34]Okay, goodie good
[11:38]Invitation accepted
[11:41]This is so great because like I'm laughing and I used to not laugh when I read this
[11:48]But it's the power of
[11:51]Editing your story many many times so that it does neutralize that they're reading a loud experience
[11:58]Okay, dear image in this is the whole story the story of you your presence in our family and all the moments
[12:07]No one knows except for your father and me love mom
[12:13]And then it begins
[12:15]So when I when I read that page and the way you
[12:20]You in the publisher designed the reading experience
[12:24]So you know, you see the cover which I think you should tell people about because it's a fantastic cover story
[12:29]But then as you turn the page and you you begin to immerse yourself in this story
[12:35]it is
[12:37]And you get to that page and it's like I felt like I was just going along for the ride
[12:43]Like I was gonna be right there with you because I wanted to know who is she and
[12:48]What's gonna happen and are there secrets and why wouldn't she know and me or image in me?
[12:55]Any of us I just think that that opening the book that way was just a genius way to connect us to the heart of the story
[13:02]Yeah
[13:04]But tell us about the cover if you don't mind. Yeah, I just had so many thoughts in response to that
[13:09]But first of all this cover is really cool because it's really hard to know like how to make a cover about
[13:17]an embryo that could be an entity
[13:19]And I don't know if everybody wants to pick up a book that has an embryo on it to be honest
[13:25]And there's a lot of themes in the story of water which I didn't realize that I
[13:30]Had done but the publisher was like you talk about water a lot and so it's like well, maybe the cover should be water
[13:36]She's like no that doesn't quite hit the mark because it's not like a surfing story or
[13:41]A memoir about swimming and so this is the power of the Instagram algorithms is that we were having this discussion
[13:50]I think and this artist out of Maryland who does
[13:54]Ink on paper creations with sterile IVF needles that have been donated
[14:00]Came across her feet where she saw these beautiful watery images made with IVF needles and she'd do like these metallic
[14:09]Circles that would represent embryos and she cost them made this for us for this story and
[14:17]I think this little
[14:20]Circle is indicative of
[14:22]Imaging but you didn't really know unless I told you but there is a nice little
[14:28]Description inside about her and her work and kind of where you can find her. I think there it is
[14:34]Which is so lovely
[14:35]She does this for a lot of families that actually have embryos on ice and want to honor them and IVF
[14:41]Offices where people can feel seen and welcome in it. So it's just a really special collaboration
[14:47]Yeah, it just makes it yeah that much more personal and also
[14:51]I know people who are gifting this book to
[14:54]Women who are going through the IVF experience or women who are
[15:00]going through decisions about their breast cancer surgery and your story
[15:07]manages to marry all of that. Right? So I was just gonna say that we talked a
[15:14]lot about the evolution of this story and from the get-go I was like I don't
[15:18]want it to be a cancer story I don't like associating with cancer I don't want
[15:22]it to be like a medical IVF story necessarily but if somebody is going through it
[15:27]I want them to have a shared experience and to understand what I went
[15:32]through to see some of themselves but mostly it's a story about choice and
[15:35]like how we get thrown into these really impossible choices sometimes
[15:39]especially with modern medicine and just how I navigated a choice it's not
[15:44]like the way or how to do it but kind of normalizing like all these
[15:50]different choices we face now as young people older people as parents as women
[15:56]individuals and how to find ourself amidst all the noise and one of the
[16:03]things I didn't do in the first draft was talk to imagine very much and I
[16:07]think that was one of the evolutions that came through the editing process was
[16:10]like remind us that this is a conversation and tap into that conversation
[16:16]lightly along the way and not wanting to do a medical memoir with having a lot of
[16:22]facts or hybrid memoir of that sort like this kind of kept it very magical and
[16:28]lyrical and almost novel like which is a really nice outcome I think and
[16:32]that's what the reviews are saying that it reads like a novel because we get to
[16:36]know you without any spoilers here but we get to know you in the beginning as
[16:40]this young woman and then we see the romance you know that you're on the
[16:45]brink of this relationship and but you're also you've also faced this
[16:49]diagnosis so all along the way we're gonna be like what's gonna happen to
[16:53]Lindsay and now that you've met her and she already know her she's just this
[16:58]bright light right and I feel that that is the way that you approach the book
[17:03]because you know the temptation in memoir is to trauma dump right like many
[17:09]people come to their memoir with traumatic life experience and when they first
[17:13]write it it's just oh my gosh it's this is a lot but you didn't do that I've
[17:19]really feel that there was a lot of pro-activeness and joy that really
[17:23]reflects the voice that you have in your in your natural life and I feel like
[17:29]that was important to you that you that it was proactive that it was you as
[17:33]it authentically a young woman who was capable of making these decisions
[17:38]walking the walk that you you were very careful not to trauma dump right it
[17:44]wasn't a woe is me it wasn't a oh my gosh what am I gonna am I gonna die that
[17:50]that almost didn't seem to be on the table it was so interesting how you
[17:54]approach the diagnosis and the decisions you made and even the decisions you
[17:59]in mark made early in your in your relationship and I think that's part of the
[18:04]magic of the book it's refreshing thank you yeah it at the beauty of this
[18:09]program the book incubator is that you get taught as a writer to read your
[18:14]work as a reader and so the very first lens I applied to my story was like as a
[18:19]reader what do I like and I don't like when people wallow it makes me annoyed as
[18:25]a reader and so I didn't want to wallow for anybody and also I don't like
[18:30]going into the whole history of everything I just like things to move
[18:33]along and so I just keep things moving along but at the same time I wanted to
[18:38]capture dropping in and being in those moments so that whoever whoever is
[18:44]reading the book feels like they are experiencing it with me and from my
[18:50]perspective like another great thing about memoir that's a little hard to
[18:54]swallows there are no villains and so I had to be careful about painting
[19:00]anybody that activated me from my own lens and why and so hopefully it helps the
[19:07]reader understand where I was coming from because a lot of these people that
[19:12]were bothersome to me are beloved by other people and it's sometimes just the
[19:17]moment in time that you perceive them or what you're going through we're
[19:21]talking about the doctors there's some doctors that we're a little
[19:24]activating and a teacher or two with you know it was like COVID time and
[19:30]everybody's very stressed but another takeaway from that I hope people get
[19:36]is to be your own best advocate and to listen to yourself when you bump up
[19:40]against your own kind of quote unquote villains by you know reflecting on
[19:47]yourself and so that's kind of how I navigated that I think in the story so
[19:51]don't undersell the voiciness of your story because what's my favorite chapter
[19:56]title was it chapter two she gets the she gets
[20:00]the diagnosis. So I think that's when you're getting the results back, right? What is the title?
[20:06]Okay well can I just have a little side note about my title? So I did write the words in the
[20:12]chapters and I had like all these titles that I would spend way too much time like perfecting
[20:18]for my editor and then she just told me she's like I'm not going to use any year titles. I
[20:22]think they give away what's in the passage to come. So I'm going to pull a phrase or a word
[20:28]from the passage and make it the title which is so beautiful and esoteric. But the second chapter
[20:34]and I was like okay my kids cannot read this for a while. It's well fuck. So that's grandma or like
[20:43]mother-in-law is not me. A magical mother-in-law is to not be esoteric. Is to take people
[20:51]into your world and you just nailed it. And every time I read that chapter and every time I read
[20:57]that title I just crack up because that is so Lindsay. Okay here we are. What are we going to do?
[21:11]As you so image and appears if you will in conversation throughout the book but not too much
[21:19]which I appreciate because then it begins to maybe veer into fantasy or surrealism which I think
[21:26]you being a very grounded person wanted to write a very grounded book and yet was it a challenge
[21:32]to figure out where it was going to be appropriate to have this certain types of conversations
[21:38]with her in your decision-making process? Oh yeah. It's kind of cool. The evolution of writing a book
[21:46]and I've told Carol to time is on your side even though in the publishing process it can be really
[21:52]slow and take a long time but it took having many readers and an editor kind of go with me
[21:59]through the editing process many times to get more of this conversation with images on the page
[22:06]because it isn't a natural thing that I think day to day but on the page I first practiced
[22:14]by writing like one line at the end of each chapter and it just got excessive and didn't feel good
[22:21]but then there were some that just came alive and stuck so it took a while to cultivate that
[22:29]conversation in an appropriate I guess like amount. Because yeah when you think about this
[22:36]the cancer journey and the healing journey and also the lifelong consequences of the
[22:42]diagnosis that Lindsey got and anyone who's had a cancer experience understands that cancer really
[22:49]becomes at least in my life I haven't had cancer but I've been a cancer caregiver
[22:56]it becomes part of your DNA so to speak you know it's just you're it's something you're always
[23:00]going to have to deal with on one level or another. Except I feel like because I have this gene
[23:08]and I had this hysterectomy at the end which in the early days of having the gene like you can have
[23:15]breast cancer but I had a double mastectomy so that kind of took the extreme risk out of that
[23:20]but having my ovaries removed kind of kept me from having to have scans every year for ovarian
[23:25]cancer so in a way like I kind of feel like I've broken up with cancer and it's not part of my
[23:31]consciousness anymore yes I love that because I think it's possible and I love the way you say
[23:36]breaking up like okay you're your memory you're part of my history my story but you don't have
[23:42]to dominate my life but even after certain critical decisions are made I think image and this
[23:51]idea of you thinking of yourself as a mother of a girl like you is how you phrased it right
[24:00]that you were echoing yourself back to yourself and the love in the self-love that you had for
[24:05]yourself throughout the story of how you made these medical decisions is what I really appreciated
[24:11]about the story and it personalized the medical details so for those people who are interested in
[24:18]but how does that work now you're not writing a medical journal but you do take people through the
[24:24]beats of treatment and the decisions even in reconstructive surgery and things of that nature so
[24:32]you have a very practical aspect but I think image and these other conversations that you bring
[24:37]in with your family and friends who guide you in so many different ways it's lovely to also see
[24:44]the dimension of the community around you because I think people are looking for like what would I do
[24:50]in her circumstance what can I take away from my own journey and recounting all these things definitely
[24:58]hope you remind me of why I made the decision
[25:00]in my journey but there's also a very special helper in the book that no one
[25:04]would know from just picking it up on the cover. Is a shaman? Yes. So you go
[25:11]through this very, because Lindsay's very, I think I find you to be very grounded
[25:14]in practical and then there's the shaman. So you know the twists and turns of
[25:20]Lindsay. So ironically he helped me become more grounded in practical because
[25:26]at the young 20 something of my life I was taking on a lot of other people's
[25:31]feelings and and absorbing them and feeling like oh what do they think of me or how do
[25:36]I please them and all this stuff and he's like whoa hold the phone like ground
[25:41]yourself and be you and that was like a really incredible thing that a traditional
[25:47]kind of therapist I don't think would have showed me. So that's why you see me this
[25:52]way Carol now because of that experience. That's the 360 of Lindsay. Yeah. Your dad's a
[25:59]doctor. Yeah. You dedicated it to him. Yeah. So I dedicated this book to my dad because my
[26:08]Braco one genetic mutation came from him and he didn't have the choice whether or not to bring
[26:14]me into being and I'm so grateful for that. Like I it's an experience I often say I wouldn't wish
[26:20]on anybody but I have become a better person because of it on so many levels and this whole story
[26:27]wouldn't exist without him but the other crazy thing is he is a fertility specialist or that was
[26:33]what he was and so it was something I never wanted to have to like talk to him about in my 20s
[26:40]like right when I was independent leaving home and yet dad helped but like I need help navigating
[26:46]this and it was just such a really cool experience to have him along my side because I think I got
[26:51]more intel than the typical patient might by already kind of growing up with this in the ether and
[26:57]having the confidence to speak to doctors and ask them questions and have opinions and and I think
[27:04]that helped a lot for this journey. So go dad. So when you decided to publish when you were in
[27:10]in the writing process and you decided to publish and your family your father your mother
[27:15]mark your husband yeah your sons your two boys knew that this story was going to go out into the
[27:20]world. What did they think? I think the amazing thing is they're very proud and very grateful to like
[27:27]have had this story they're all cheering me on which is so amazing nobody was like I don't put that
[27:33]out there but like my mom really wanted to have her own addendum. I want to share my experience
[27:38]from my mother's. I know. It was so dramatic for me. I know. Right your own book.
[27:46]Yes and she does and then you know we were talking when they were like oh maybe it would be cool
[27:52]if Mark had his own chapters and could chime in or or my dad but then in the end I was like no
[27:58]it's my story I've got to tell it and it helped keep it a little more sacred I think without
[28:04]their voices and people people also told us I think in the in the book incubator writing program
[28:12]that you've got to you've got to write this for yourself and write first you know it's you can
[28:18]show right you can show pages or chapters way too early so the program believes that you don't
[28:23]show anybody any pages until you finish the whole manuscript so that they can see each scene in its
[28:29]context because people love to weigh in you know they love to say well don't you think or wouldn't
[28:35]it or what about and you know you've got to see what your true self is on the page first and now
[28:41]that your true self I mean this the the biggest seminal moments of your life the things that have
[28:47]brought you to where you are today are in print and they're out in the world how does that
[28:52]make you feel you're doing interviews on podcasts you're on a book tour right now here in the US
[28:58]I have to remember sometimes I'm in real life but Carol never having conversation last night I
[29:03]answered like yes thank you she's like you're not being interviewed right now we're just having a
[29:07]conversation yeah Lindsay was in podcast mode at dinner funny but yet no like the crazy thing is
[29:15]life goes on and there's still a lot that I'm needed for which is wonderful so these moments
[29:21]are like special gems and treats to get to like come in the world and share the story and see
[29:27]friends and meet new people and the connection part is like the best part so feels really good
[29:32]and you know other opinions I just take with a grand sold I'm like I'm okay oh yes that is
[29:38]there's one that was like Saint Mark it's something like her husband is a saint to put up with her
[29:45]and I was like oh I was like you only see what I showed you but he loves it he's like yes I
[29:55]have Saint Mark don't forget it so luckily we all
[30:00]live about it.
[30:01]That's good.
[30:02]No, it's great.
[30:03]Yeah, the chapter where he broke up with you is not in the book.
[30:06]Oh my gosh, Carol!
[30:07]Sorry, Mark.
[30:10]No.
[30:11]Yeah, I think we're getting up with him, so it's okay.
[30:14]Okay.
[30:15]There you go.
[30:16]Fun game.
[30:17]Fun.
[30:18]I think it's a good opportunity now, too.
[30:20]Yeah.
[30:21]For questions, anybody?
[30:22]It's so many.
[30:23]It's hard after all that maybe to ask questions, but any questions are welcome.
[30:28]What did you personally have to do with this?
[30:33]Yeah.
[30:34]Technically, I started in 2023, so I guess that's about three years, almost two and a half
[30:39]years.
[30:40]Well, I guess if you thought about it before that, you know, I always liked writing
[30:44]about my day and my blog just to kind of remember experiences, like a journal.
[30:49]So I kind of had that muscle, I guess, but I hadn't actually written it down and I wrote
[30:55]it by hand first, which was really fun.
[30:58]The transcribing it was not so fun, but it helped me kind of have some distance and then
[31:03]when I first read through it, I was like, okay, these are some areas I couldn't improve
[31:07]or not.
[31:08]But it really started to take its shape working with an editor, which, you know, seems
[31:12]really scary to like have somebody read your work and really give kind of tough feedback
[31:18]sometimes.
[31:19]Like the scene doesn't really move the story along and, you know, really made it.
[31:23]I mean, if you want it, we won't publish your book and it's okay, but I was like, oh,
[31:29]no, no, I can cut it and then you've got to like dive deeper into some areas and, but
[31:35]it's such a gift to work with an editor and it really took on a new life after that.
[31:41]And so we were writing it really up until the end and I was lucky enough to record an
[31:46]audio book for it before it was published and even then I was like, oh, I said something
[31:52]that isn't quite what I wanted to say and I'd still be changing it till the end.
[31:55]So, yeah, it's always in evolution until it's done and now it's out of my hands.
[32:01]Right.
[32:02]But yeah.
[32:03]That's a good question.
[32:04]You know, I really exhausted those conversations, I think, before I wrote the book and
[32:34]it was a way for me to remember that I had exhausted the conversations, which was really
[32:38]good.
[32:39]So, it memorialized to them, yes, good question.
[32:43]Yeah.
[32:44]There are still times where I'm like, oh, but yeah, then I answer the question really
[32:48]quickly.
[32:49]I'm like, no, that's very vague.
[32:52]I'm sorry, she knows my story, so, yeah, that's it, that's it.
[32:59]So, you do have children now?
[33:01]Yes, I do.
[33:02]I have two boys and they do not have the Brackajean and they were kind of early in the
[33:08]process.
[33:09]We did IVF to not pass on the gene and we felt very self-righteous and like, this is great.
[33:16]We're not going to pass on my experience to future kids like if we can help it because
[33:21]there's no other way technically to cure cancer, right, except at the source.
[33:25]So, then we get the results and in the US you can learn gender and we ended up getting
[33:30]to the gender and I was like, oh, that's like me, like a female that also has the gene
[33:36]and then it just became a lot harder to make the decision.
[33:39]This was after the boy.
[33:40]Yeah, after we knew about the boys and yeah, so just kept being in my mind and couldn't
[33:47]let it go.
[33:48]So, there's a few iterations of trying and going forward and then sometimes it's like life
[33:55]gets in the way or has other plans and or pandemic, all kinds of things.
[34:01]So, it's a little bit about two of the stories like how much can you control and think
[34:06]you can control and you try to control it but then things just happen anyway.
[34:10]Yeah.
[34:11]Good question.
[34:13]Okay.
[34:14]I guess Harrison.
[34:16]So, this book is published with third rail press, which for some folks who are unfamiliar
[34:22]with their rail, a part of their mission is publishing books that touch upon themes and
[34:30]topics that are sometimes within the publishing industry referred to as a third rail.
[34:35]So, often just so happens to often be women's stories and it's often issues, for example,
[34:44]in this case related to fertility.
[34:46]Have you found in this process whether through just your writing process or even the process
[34:55]of going on the tour for this book and promoting it?
[34:58]Have you found that it's because?
[35:00]come easier to kind of start these dialogues with people
[35:04]and have these conversations or does it sometimes feel
[35:07]like when you encounter these stories in real life,
[35:11]does it feel still like it's kind of this third rail
[35:13]that people don't want to talk about?
[35:15]Such a good question.
[35:16]I think people want to talk about it
[35:19]and it's like inviting them to talk about it
[35:21]and then they talk about it.
[35:23]And even talking about the book is coming.
[35:25]Everybody's like, thank you because I don't know
[35:29]what to do with my embryos on ice.
[35:30]And I had this experience and nobody talks about it.
[35:33]And I was telling Carol earlier,
[35:36]part of the reason I wanted to tell this story
[35:38]is because as a new parent,
[35:40]like I really appreciated when parents with older kids
[35:42]would tell me, oh my kids having a meltdown.
[35:44]I was like, oh my two, it's not just me, right?
[35:47]So it kind of normalizes these things.
[35:49]We don't know how to navigate.
[35:50]And I was like, I feel very comfortable
[35:53]speaking about fertility partly because of my dad
[35:55]and now that I've had this experience,
[35:57]like I feel like it needs to be talked about
[35:59]so other people don't feel so alone or yeah.
[36:04]Like and it's easy to talk about for me
[36:07]and I think it does invite that ease in the conversation.
[36:10]Good question.
[36:11]And thanks for the explanation of third rail.
[36:14]So yes, and it's incredible
[36:17]because Carol and I were both in this writing program together
[36:20]and then we were both pitching our books to agents
[36:23]and both getting warm rejections.
[36:25]I love like love your story, love your writing
[36:27]but we just can't champion this story in the marketplace
[36:30]and then third rail came about
[36:32]and we both got to be published with them.
[36:34]So it's just been a really amazing start
[36:36]to finish journey with Carol.
[36:38]Yes.
[36:39]And being able to talk about each other's stories
[36:42]to potential readers.
[36:44]So for example, in sharing this event with people I know,
[36:50]it does invite that conversation.
[36:52]So and these sometimes these are difficult topics
[36:55]so when you're talking about breast cancer
[36:57]or fertility or both or in one case,
[37:01]someone who wanted to come but couldn't
[37:04]because they were out of town
[37:05]but has a very dear friend who is both pregnant
[37:08]and battling breast cancer.
[37:10]Now who does this woman talk to?
[37:12]Who wants to talk to this woman really, right?
[37:15]Because what do you say?
[37:17]And knowing that there's a book out there like this
[37:22]was like the reaction that my friend had was
[37:26]I can give my friend something
[37:29]that shows a woman's journey
[37:31]through these very difficult choices,
[37:33]not specifically her choices
[37:35]but similar in its complexity.
[37:38]And I think when you take this idea of woman
[37:41]and fertility and motherhood and grief or death,
[37:47]it's out of sync with how we see ourselves
[37:52]in moving through life and society.
[37:54]We're not in sequence.
[37:56]But most people's lives when you really get to know people
[37:58]are not in sequence.
[38:00]And so you being so young when you face this major
[38:05]multiple decisions,
[38:06]it's not only just how to save your own life
[38:09]but how are you going to create life?
[38:11]And is that even a decision that you have to make right now?
[38:14]Hello?
[38:15]I think that's what's resonating with people.
[38:18]And you're connecting with people
[38:20]who want to be in that conversation
[38:23]and don't know how.
[38:24]So wouldn't it be great if they start with,
[38:26]you know, I just read this amazing book.
[38:28]Oh, it'd be great.
[38:29]And oh, by the way.
[38:29]I know, by the way.
[38:32]Yeah.
[38:33]So I know you're so humble and grounded
[38:37]that I read Lindsay's reviews.
[38:40]And if you go on and you go to Goodreads
[38:42]or you go to Amazon
[38:43]and you're starting to read the early reviews.
[38:46]What's really interesting is these are people
[38:48]who don't necessarily know her.
[38:50]They are just reading from a net galley early copy
[38:53]or they bought the book.
[38:56]But for the author, it's an opportunity to say,
[38:59]okay, this is what I set out to do.
[39:01]So you've described the mission, what you were thinking.
[39:03]And to see that people are getting it.
[39:06]Like they just get it is so thrilling.
[39:10]Like it's thrilling to me to see that for you
[39:13]because I know how much work you put into this
[39:17]and work is not just the writing itself.
[39:19]I think for Lindsay, it's really, these are my words.
[39:23]I feel like you were coming to terms
[39:26]with how you wanted to tell this story.
[39:28]That was authentic to you, right?
[39:31]And how you were gonna bring
[39:33]image and voice into your story
[39:35]that was gonna be authentic to you, right?
[39:38]Because it's a very fine line when you're writing.
[39:40]Like are people gonna think I'm a little,
[39:42]like off the rail, not only third rail,
[39:45]but like just lost the vlog.
[39:47]Oh, and it's such a, it's such a,
[39:49]just lost the plug completely.
[39:51]Yeah.
[39:51]No, but it's such a wonderful balance.
[39:54]And yeah.
[39:57]That's Lindsay, I'm interested.
[40:00]You know, you talk about this model, the decision and I understand that if you think society has changed, it's used on these things since you made that decision and day.
[40:09]It's a good question.
[40:11]There's a lot more choices, I think, these days.
[40:14]Like, technology is just getting more and more advanced, but I think it's making it even more complicated and noisy for people to find like their own moral center of like where do I draw the line or where do I play God
[40:29]and don't play God and why.
[40:31]And I think really getting to the core of that answer for yourself just becomes harder.
[40:38]But yeah, I don't know if there's any advancements in like knowing which is like the better way or not.
[40:45]But I was told by a doctor that by this day and age like 20 years after, not nearly, not quite.
[40:53]but after my diagnosis that modern medicine would be further along so that if someone had a brack a genetic mutation, they would have better solutions than just having a mastectomy and a hysterectomy, but I don't think that's the case.
[41:09]But I also haven't researched it, so I don't know.
[41:13]Anyway, yeah, good question.
[41:16]So what do you guys think?
[41:18]Different than you expected, you know, the coming to the book event and knowing what you knew about Lindsay.
[41:25]Yes, if you want to try me, I'm just curious.
[41:28]You don't want to be put on the spot, you don't have to answer.
[41:31]Oh my gosh.
[41:32]Oh my gosh.
[41:33]You know, gosh, being a journalist.
[41:35]He just goes there.
[41:37]I think it's a really hard to answer the moral question.
[41:40]Like, everybody wants to, what is your answer?
[41:43]What is the moral question?
[41:44]Like, I was figuring it out.
[41:46]And this is kind of where I ended up, but I still don't have the answers.
[41:49]And I think some politicians like to say there are answers.
[41:53]And it's really hard because it's not black and white.
[41:56]Yeah.
[41:57]Yeah.
[41:58]Yeah.
[41:59]Not the primary caregiver.
[42:00]You got what a wall of concern?
[42:01]Yeah.
[42:02]In the process of writing.
[42:03]Did you ever go like, am I not wall awake or am I avoiding something that really don't want to separate?
[42:09]That's such a good question.
[42:10]There was so much wallowing in the writing process.
[42:13]I don't want it to like come across on the page, but it's like that book.
[42:18]The body keeps the score.
[42:19]Like, I was like, I'm good.
[42:21]I'm a past cancer.
[42:22]And I'm like, writing the story.
[42:23]Oh my gosh.
[42:24]Like, I guess I didn't sit with it enough.
[42:27]Like, during the time.
[42:29]And so a lot of it came on the page.
[42:32]And it's really me just recount, recounting like this happened.
[42:35]And then this happened.
[42:36]But it was still very triggering for me.
[42:39]And nicely, those were days when my husband was traveling.
[42:43]And I could just have my feelings.
[42:46]And it was a great way to process them and come through it to be able to share it.
[42:52]So.
[42:53]Call me.
[42:54]Yeah.
[42:55]Yes.
[42:56]Yes.
[42:57]That thing.
[42:58]So now that it is out in the world.
[43:00]Yeah.
[43:01]I feel like about it.
[43:03]Like, you know, it's almost like you were perfect.
[43:06]Yes.
[43:07]Yeah.
[43:08]Yes.
[43:09]So how it feels good.
[43:13]Like, it's really lovely to have it completed and done.
[43:16]And to be able to talk about it and have like art created almost from this experience.
[43:21]It's like a beautiful way to come full circle and, yeah, start a new chapter.
[43:28]Just to be always talking about what's your next chapter.
[43:31]Just tie that in for her.
[43:33]Yes.
[43:34]Thanks.
[43:35]Yeah.
[43:36]Okay.
[43:37]Well.
[43:38]So.
[43:39]Yes.
[43:40]Lisa.
[43:41]Oh, there you go.
[43:43]So while waiting for some of the edits to come through from the editor, which can take months,
[43:48]then you're like, are they still going to publish the book?
[43:50]Like, is anybody there?
[43:51]But this is very normal in the process.
[43:53]I joined an in-person writing group.
[43:56]I live in Sydney in Australia now.
[43:58]And so I've been working on fiction.
[44:00]Because I think writing something made up a lot more.
[44:02]Just liberating and exciting and creative.
[44:05]And I can make stuff up and not have to worry about anybody's feelings.
[44:10]Mine included.
[44:12]So, yes.
[44:13]Hopefully a fiction story next.
[44:15]Are there any potential writers in the room?
[44:18]This one right here.
[44:20]Yes.
[44:21]Just exploring.
[44:22]Oh, what is a great place to start?
[44:24]Yeah.
[44:25]I used to write a lot, especially in the university and in the culture of science.
[44:29]In my face.
[44:30]I mean, I haven't done it in a very long time.
[44:33]And I feel like at some point when I'm not a mom, wife, working.
[44:38]You mean you won't be a wife when you start writing?
[44:40]Is this breaking news?
[44:42]No, no, no.
[44:44]You guys don't like it.
[44:45]You don't like it.
[44:46]You don't like it.
[44:47]You don't like it.
[44:48]You don't like it.
[44:49]You still like it.
[44:50]Yeah.
[44:51]But yeah, it's just something that kind of like, I would like to get that kind of creative piece
[44:55]because it is really exciting to apply yourself in other ways.
[44:58]Yeah.
[44:59]But it again.
[45:00]I wouldn't even know where to start, which was, you know, no flying.
[45:02]No, no, thanks for questions.
[45:04]But maybe there's my interesting question for you
[45:06]and reflecting back in the process now.
[45:09]Yeah, yeah.
[45:10]Advice for yourself.
[45:11]Oh, no, I keep telling myself, like, these last few weeks,
[45:15]like, a job passed off.
[45:16]Like, this is what you needed to do to get here.
[45:18]So for me, I really knew I needed to know
[45:22]what was going on in the publishing industry
[45:23]and be around people that knew it and could, like,
[45:26]energize me and for me, like, just hearing Mary
[45:30]addkins on the podcast was very inspiring.
[45:33]And I was like, OK, I feel like I can do it.
[45:35]So I just kind of followed that feeling.
[45:36]And that just led me all the way here at the end.
[45:40]So I'd say that you really have to want to do it
[45:44]because it is so demanding and time-consuming.
[45:48]And take your time.
[45:49]Like, it doesn't have to be perfect from the get-go
[45:52]or you have to have it all figured out.
[45:53]It's just, like, keep at it little by little, I think.
[45:56]Yes.
[45:57]Yes.
[45:58]Hi.
[45:59]Do you ever think in your prior career
[46:01]that you write or one thing?
[46:04]So that's a funny question.
[46:05]I at one point in my life did this career counseling
[46:09]test where I answered all these very random questions
[46:12]that told me a lot of different things.
[46:13]And it kind of gave me back, like, different career
[46:16]options that I'd be satisfied with and do well at.
[46:20]And one of them was writing.
[46:21]And my mom was a writer.
[46:23]Like, she's always written.
[46:24]And I just, like, the rebellious daughter I was.
[46:28]I was like, I'm not going to be like my parents.
[46:29]I'm not going to be a doctor.
[46:30]I'm not going to be a writer.
[46:31]So I did, like, interior architecture.
[46:33]I was doing filmmaking at the time.
[46:35]And, but once I had kids, I couldn't really do that job
[46:39]fully because I needed to be there full time.
[46:41]And I wanted to raise my kids.
[46:42]So the writing just came knocking.
[46:45]So, yes, the new endeavor, I think, that was always dormant.
[46:50]But comes when it needs to come, maybe.
[46:53]Yeah.
[46:54]All right, well, we can find now or something.
[46:58]Lindsay, we're just enjoying your company.
[47:00]Yeah, I feel like it's been longer than 30 minutes.
[47:04]No, you guys.
[47:05]This has been, we look forward to being with you.
[47:09]I have looked so forward to this day
[47:11]to be able to celebrate Lindsay because she
[47:13]is a generous, author, friend, and writer.
[47:17]This is the first time actually Lindsay.
[47:19]And I have met in person.
[47:20]We've been really close friends for the last couple of years
[47:23]because of the writing through the writing program.
[47:27]And Lindsay is always the first to congratulate new authors
[47:30]on their debuts.
[47:31]Lindsay, she posts consistently on her Instagram.
[47:34]She celebrates her fellow authors very consistently.
[47:39]She has always been there as a beta reader.
[47:41]I think she's read two manuscripts
[47:44]and then bought my book and promoted it on her account,
[47:48]knowing how much it meant to me when it debuted last December.
[47:51]And she should also check it out because it's here.
[47:53]She is so good.
[47:55]Gotta do my job.
[47:56]She's such a generous writer and friend.
[47:59]And so I, you know, when she needed me, I'm here for her.
[48:05]And I am so proud of you, Lindsay,
[48:07]because it was a hella lot of work.
[48:10]And it is so beautiful.
[48:12]It's like just a collector's piece
[48:14]just to be able to have the cover on a shelf.
[48:18]So just congratulations on your book tour.
[48:21]Boulder is next.
[48:23]And her end will turn to her fun.
[48:25]Alice, she is on Zigbee's most anticipated list
[48:30]for the summer book shop owner, if you didn't know.
[48:34]So Zigbee is also a very generous
[48:36]but gets inundated with requests.
[48:38]So she has her pick of the universe of books that come out.
[48:42]And for her to honor Lindsay
[48:45]with being the, you know, on the most anticipated list
[48:49]and hosting Lindsay and several other authors in New York,
[48:53]it's such honor.
[48:55]Yeah, it really says something about the quality of the work.
[48:58]Yeah, so please, certainly,
[49:00]Lindsay's gonna be signing books today.
[49:03]I would encourage all of you,
[49:04]if you wanna help Lindsay to post reviews.
[49:07]Oh, thanks.
[49:08]And also, I have an authors copy of the book
[49:11]that I'm passing around.
[49:12]You guys wanna sign it, which is a new book.
[49:14]You write fun, yeah.
[49:15]Yeah.
[49:16]Yeah, thank you.
[49:18]Thank you.
[49:20]Wow, that's important.
[49:21]It's not for Lindsay's ego.
[49:22]She's not reading her reviews
[49:24]but it is, it's food for the algorithm.
[49:26]It allows, it's the best chance for a debut author to be seen
[49:30]because once the algorithm understands
[49:33]that you like the book, it will show the book
[49:35]to other people and not only that
[49:38]but it will also show similar writers.
[49:42]So, there is can be goodness in the algorithm.
[49:46]It's hard to ignore.
[49:47]But so your review has power,
[49:50]especially in these early stages.
[49:51]So how I would encourage,
[49:53]though the rule is you're supposed to read the whole thing
[49:55]but I would encourage you to, however much you have read it,
[49:59]if you...
[50:00]want to post even just stars, it really helps her.
[50:03]Thank you.
[50:03]I wish I could record that and take it with me everywhere.
[50:06]I'm sure you like it to Carol.
[50:07]I just don't get myself, you know.
[50:10]For debut, it's all about volume and velocity.
[50:14]So to be, Bell Burton with strangers
[50:16]is almost an impossible task.
[50:18]That is a zeitgeist moment and good for her.
[50:22]And we champion new writers.
[50:25]But for a debut memoir, it does take
[50:29]a community.
[50:31]And for everyone who is reading this book,
[50:34]they have that reaction.
[50:35]Like to be, to discover this book and to read this book
[50:38]is a pleasure and a value.
[50:40]Like it will help someone out there on their journey.
[50:44]Thank you.
[50:45]So that's how it's going to get found to be real.
[50:48]Yeah.
[50:49]So congratulations, Lindsay.
[50:51]And cookies, custom cookies, books for sale,
[50:57]Lindsay's a round to chat.
[50:58]Yeah, really, I think it was so much.
[51:00]Congratulations again.
[51:02]Thank you.
[51:03]Refreshing conversation about often hard topics.
[51:07]I also wanted to say that we're going to have Carol
[51:09]back with us in September, the 20th anniversary
[51:13]of September 11th, which she covered.
[51:15]And her partner happens to be here as well,
[51:18]did I show?
[51:20]Josh Mankowitz, NBC Dateline, and a dear family friend.
[51:24]Yeah, please buy this book.
[51:26]If I buy both their books, please feel free to browse,
[51:28]hang out for up until six.
[51:30]Take a cookie, beautiful cookie, she had me.
[51:34]Congratulations again.
[51:35]Thank you, Margaret.
[51:36]Thank you.
[51:37]Thank you.
[51:38]Thank you.
[51:40]Thank you.
[51:41]Thank you.
[51:56]Thank you.