Lydia Millet on Fair Ones, Dual Perspectives, and the Lifelong Bonds of Friendship
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:03]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show and learned endless amounts about
[0:09]storytelling, reinvention, and life itself, because when you talk about books, you're
[0:13]really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors, the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy!
[0:27]Lydia Millett is the author of Fair Ones, a double novel.
[0:31]Lydia is the author of more than 20 books, in fact, she has been on this podcast before
[0:34]to talk about dinosaur, including some of her other books included Children's Bible,
[0:39]which was a finalist for the National Book Award, and one of the New York Times's
[0:42]10 Best Books of the Year in 2020, a story collection called Love and Infant Monkeys that
[0:47]was a finalist for the 2010 Holitzer Prize and others.
[0:51]Her other books have won awards from Penn Center, USA, and the American Academy of Arts
[0:55]and Letters.
[0:56]All that works at the center for biological diversity, and lives outside Tucson, Arizona.
[1:01]Welcome to Totally Books.
[1:02]Thank you so much for coming on Lydia Millett back on the podcast to talk about Fair Ones.
[1:08]Welcome.
[1:09]Thank you for having me.
[1:10]My pleasure.
[1:11]As I casually named her up, I was interviewing and pageant recently, and in front of 3,000
[1:17]people, she talked about how much she loved this book and how the book that she is reading
[1:22]now is your Children's Bible because she wants to go back and read that.
[1:26]So, I'm sure if you see an uptick in sales this week, it was that mention.
[1:30]That's great.
[1:32]When was that?
[1:33]It was yesterday.
[1:34]Oh, it was lovely.
[1:35]That's good to hear.
[1:37]Yeah, she's such an excellent advocate for books.
[1:40]Oh my gosh, I have so much.
[1:41]Everyone has so much respect for her taste, so there's that.
[1:45]Anyway, this was such an original work, which I feel people are craving right now is
[1:50]new form, new ways of telling stories, all of that.
[1:53]Talk a little bit about Fair Ones and how you came up with it and what makes it unique.
[1:59]Well, for me, it's different because it's actually grounded in reality and normal day-to-day
[2:06]human type existence in a way that some of my other books aren't quite there and now mermaids
[2:12]appearing out of nowhere or god-like figures to send me and helicopters.
[2:18]That's just kind of normal, real life except that the action is catalyzed by this terrible
[2:26]event among this really small group of friends in New York, in New York City.
[2:32]And it's mostly dialogue, which I think it's the first time I've written a book that's
[2:38]so dialogue heavy, but you know, it's such a joy to write dialogue, right?
[2:43]I mean, it's such a good shortcut to character, you know, and you never have to do much
[2:50]descriptive work if you have people's own words to hold against them, right?
[2:54]Sort of like shed light on what their blind spots are.
[2:57]So yeah, so it's really dialogue, it's kind of fast and it's really situated in this
[3:03]like very social world, sort of like a series of, almost like a series of parties, although
[3:10]overshadowed by this sort of tragedy that takes place at the beginning of the book.
[3:15]Well, you show so beautifully how people come together and don't in times of grief,
[3:20]what people need to do to get through their own losses, what it means to lose someone who
[3:26]is a central force with any group and what the loss of the group is like an additional loss
[3:31]in addition to the person, when it shrinks or contracts, and you explore all this so beautifully.
[3:37]Talk about your relationship to grief, what you wanted to share with us, what it means to lose
[3:43]a friend like that, and how to depict that in writing, especially using those three dialogue.
[3:48]So, you know, there's so many different kinds of grief and we tend to acknowledge some more
[3:53]than others, right? It's very accepted for us to mourn the loss of loved ones who are human,
[4:04]to some degree now, acceptable to sort of mourn the loss of a pet, right? Less acceptable
[4:10]to mourn things that are further away from us or more abstract or that or don't exist sort of in
[4:17]our immediate surrounding. It's like a, you know, a species going extinct, say, or are kind of
[4:24]forest far away or a little plant. You know, these things disappearing, or even, you know,
[4:31]the stability of, say, our climate or our government or whatever, morning things like that is
[4:35]harder to do. It's more complicated. In this book, I was dealing with a really, a really direct
[4:43]and shocking loss that is of the kind that we're more accustomed to in the sense that it was human
[4:51]loss and the loss of a person, an individual. But so sudden and bizarre, you know, I wanted to write
[4:58]about when we-
[5:00]find ourselves in the midst of when we find ourselves in the position that we've only ever sort
[5:06]of thought would be the position of others. You know, like going along in your normal life and
[5:13]do you see bad stuff happening maybe farther away from you or to other people and you just sort
[5:20]of rely on the normalcy of your own existence. You know, like the day to day continuing because
[5:26]that's one of the gifts that, you know, that we sort of have in a state of privilege like
[5:32]historically even relative privilege is that things go along and go along and the bad things
[5:39]we cope with are rarely completely mysterious or sort of savage feeling or global, you know.
[5:51]So anyway, I, but then like you can just be jolted out of, out of that life when something
[5:59]happens they weren't expecting and even the things that are or should be predictable to us sometimes
[6:04]like the death of a parent, you know, can, can feel existentially changing to us, right? And I
[6:12]think most of us who've lost a parent have felt the world, the texture of the world sort of change
[6:19]around that loss and then you slowly get used to this new configuration of the world. But fewer
[6:25]people in their 40s and 50s have lost someone their age, someone, someone who's a peer. And so
[6:33]that's what I that's what I decided to write about for this one. You also have like a rip from the
[6:39]headlines-ish plot going throughout and I don't want to give things away later but there becomes
[6:45]some interesting developments with that as well and we uncover more and more about sort of
[6:51]assuming we random acts that happen, random acts of violence, random things in society. What is random?
[6:59]What is not? Who's role is it to figure all of that out? When do we leave well enough alone and
[7:04]when do we investigate? Talk a little bit about that because I found that really fascinating how
[7:10]everything unspoiled. Well, I first had this, this is like this book is called a double novel because
[7:17]it's sort of two consecutive stories told from two different points of view that are that are sort
[7:22]of, you know, interwoven with each other. And the first of them is narrated by someone
[7:30]called Mara and the second is her best friend Jen who sort of takes up the narration where
[7:35]a few months after Mara's leaves off at the end of the first book. And originally the
[7:43]the first part Mara's part was more sort of it was a little more like a procedural or a mystery
[7:48]or something where there was a more deliberate investigation of this shocking event by Mara and Jen.
[7:56]And then the second part was less kind of genre feeling and I ended up
[8:02]revising the first part of the book to be less procedural, you know, because I wanted them to be
[8:10]to sort of reflect each other more closely in their structure and tone. You know, it's like we called
[8:16]it a double novel because it's sort of sort of like double vision where two people have different
[8:21]views of the same object or in the case of double vision, it would be that your eyes didn't,
[8:26]you know, that they weren't thinking correctly or whatever. But it's sort of like that, the sort
[8:31]of Rashomon sort of thing, different points of view on the same event. And so I wanted them
[8:39]to kind of kind of reflect and mimic each other, but of course not be identical. And I
[8:44]and I wanted also this to be a kind of depiction of the way that if you've had a friend for a
[8:50]really long time as these, these are women in their 40s who've known each other since college,
[8:54]right? And I've found with my closest friends over decades that we kind of adopt each
[9:01]other's mannerisms, you know, and you have you share lexicon not only dislike memories and
[9:05]in jokes, but also actual ways of speaking and codes, you know, and that that you've developed,
[9:11]you share this whole language, but you still, you still retain the personality that you kind of
[9:17]came in with, you know, and so I wanted to have this kind of shared lexicon and tone, but also have
[9:25]these be really distinct characters the way we, the way we are, even, even, you know, in comparison
[9:30]to our friends. We know oftentimes where the gaps are between us and where we diverge and stuff,
[9:38]if we've known each other for a long time, right? So I kind of tinker with the genre kind of
[9:46]aspect of the first book to make it more in keeping with the less originally genre quality of the
[9:54]second book. Do you know what, do you know what, can you imagine what I'm saying basically?
[9:56]Yeah, I'm reading, I'm reading through the lines here.
[10:00]Yeah.
[10:01]Yeah.
[10:02]So so what was originally sort of more genre is less so like in the final draft.
[10:08]But there still is that there still is in each in each part of the book this kind of suspense
[10:13]or mystery that sort of is that does like unspool over the pages with a little sort of
[10:21]deliberation.
[10:22]Do you like talking about your books like when you're like, oh, I have a zoom in the calendar
[10:27]or whatever.
[10:28]Like, how do you feel about that and how easy or hard is it to talk about fiction?
[10:34]You know, here's what I find it hard to talk about.
[10:36]I find it hard to talk about process, actually not hard just boring.
[10:42]It's boring for me because I think that what I do in terms of process is just it's just very
[10:48]basic.
[10:49]I can say it all in a couple of lines and then I have nothing more to say.
[10:52]I don't really like like process questions and then I also like questions like where do
[10:58]do you get your ideas or whatever those so I feel like someone's asking me like what
[11:01]idea store I want to to buy that one or whatever.
[11:05]It's like such a hard question to answer unless you just make something up, right?
[11:09]Like sometimes there is sometimes there is a direct genesis of like a plot idea or whatever.
[11:16]But for me mostly what happens is just that I sit down and I'm looking at a blank screen
[11:22]and I just fill it with whatever I'm feeling like filling it with at that moment.
[11:29]So yeah, so those things are good to talk about.
[11:33]And I guess I also have like like I prefer conversations where the other person is also
[11:40]just talking about their stuff and it's not all about my stuff.
[11:43]So I always feel a bit awkward that we're just like talking about my work instead of both
[11:48]of our work.
[11:49]Yeah.
[11:50]Totally understandable.
[11:51]There are parts of your work that you find more exciting to talk about.
[11:55]And I see what you're saying.
[11:56]I just to to do what you want, you know, sometimes I just feel like I already know all
[12:01]about me.
[12:02]So when I talk about me, I'm not learning anything.
[12:04]But when I'm interviewing somebody like you or I get to be in conversation with somebody
[12:08]really dynamic and interesting, then I get to learn as well as opposed to just like say
[12:14]the same stuff that happened to me which I wish could change over time because I'm told
[12:17]the same story.
[12:19]Yeah, you want new stories of yourself to tell like it would be better to have like
[12:23]multiple lives to to deliver a speech about.
[12:27]Yeah, no exactly.
[12:28]I do like I tend to like to talk about the ideas and books if whoever I'm talking to also
[12:34]likes to talk about the ideas and books, then I guess that's a little more interesting
[12:39]to me than just talking about how I came to make X or Y.
[12:44]I guess.
[12:46]But it depends on the book.
[12:46]You know, some books don't lend themselves as readily to that as other books.
[12:50]So you don't want to like do a deep dive into your drug habit.
[12:54]Right.
[12:55]Spoiler alert, there are some drugs in this book.
[12:59]Oh my gosh.
[13:00]What are you most excited about for your tour or everything coming up for the book?
[13:05]Is there someone you're like, yes, I finally get to talk to this person?
[13:08]Well, you know, it just did an event with my friend Jenny Affille who's writing is really
[13:14]excellent in New York a few days ago.
[13:17]And that was a lot of fun.
[13:19]And I guess I'm going to the Miami, the book festival there in November, which is always
[13:24]really fun.
[13:25]And I always love going there because I get to take a couple of days and do a hike and
[13:30]big cypress out there in Everglades because it's only like two hours drive away from
[13:34]all the book festival stuff.
[13:36]And so that makes me happy because, you know, alligators and birds and swamp and I like
[13:42]all those things.
[13:43]That is nothing that I would ever do and I've been to that festival many times.
[13:47]Well, you know, there's also just like my friend Darcy Stanky is really into like open
[13:52]water swimming and she's just going to be like tackling the, tackling the ocean while
[13:55]she's there.
[13:56]There are many, many things in Miami that I don't feel so pathetic.
[14:00]I'm going to like go out to dinner and maybe read.
[14:04]Well, I think that's probably the more popular approach, you know.
[14:10]So what else?
[14:11]Yeah.
[14:12]So most of the actual traveling that I'm doing for this book, I've already done, which
[14:17]included going to and patch its bookstore in Nashville, Parnassas, which everyone probably
[14:23]knows of and which is a beautiful store.
[14:27]And we were there on Dolly Day.
[14:28]So it was like Valley Park.
[14:29]And everyone had pink glitter on their faces and that was, that was quite something.
[14:35]I never knew I'd be there on Dolly Day and then I was I recently showed my kids
[14:41]the movie nine to five.
[14:43]So they were like, oh my God, so when Dolly Parton passed away, they felt like a deep connection
[14:49]to her.
[14:50]Well, I guess not every kid these days who seen nine to five.
[14:53]That's for sure.
[14:54]Yeah, I was like, that's one of the classics that I'm going to make you watch.
[14:57]Like you have to make sure yeah, maybe I should do that.
[15:00]Yeah, forget the sound of music, you have to watch nine to five.
[15:05]I'll never forget the theme song. It's like etched into my brain.
[15:10]Yes, the same. Are you working on anything new right now?
[15:13]I am. I'm working on a couple of novels at the same time.
[15:19]This sort of next one to be finished probably is called Duchy Keep.
[15:23]And it's about this, this kind of city, small city of the future, ruled over by a fake arch duke.
[15:36]And it's just kind of 10 days in the life of the city as they prepare for their annual summer, jamboree.
[15:45]So it's quite different from this one. But it's a lot of fun.
[15:49]Travel keeping characters straight in one book. The idea of working on multiple novels at once sounds very overwhelming. Do you have little no cards or anything?
[15:58]No, but you know, I don't want to imply that I work on them the same day or something.
[16:03]You know, it's more like I put one away for a few weeks or a couple of months or whatever while I'm, you know, while I'm puzzling something out about it.
[16:12]Or if I'm just tired of working on it or whatever and just work on this alternate project. Yeah, I could never like to build them on a daily basis. That wouldn't be good at all.
[16:23]Do you have advice for aspiring novelists?
[16:26]What I always think is that if you wish to write novels, you should just be someone who reads a lot of them.
[16:34]So really the advice is just read, you know, if if writing novels is what you think you want to do then make sure.
[16:41]Make sure you read widely among them and read things that you don't, you know, go read outside your comfort zone, I guess.
[16:49]Like don't only read iterations of what you've already read. I think that that was the most important thing for me, especially in my in my 20s was to sort of
[16:59]veer in my reading away from the canon that I already had. Which was like part like, you know, the canon you have in school, but also just partly like what I read growing up and what I gravitated toward.
[17:09]And it was really important for me to read things that were not one either of those lists.
[17:15]When you were the age of these three friends, who would you have been most like?
[17:21]You know, Jen probably probably. Yeah.
[17:25]Although I'm much less Jen is the for those who haven't read this book yet, Jen is sort of the more I don't know judgmental hard news.
[17:33]However, you want to say that of these characters.
[17:36]And I was more like that in my 20s than I am now. Like I actually got I mean, it's I think normal for people to mellow right as they as they get older to some degree.
[17:46]So that's just like a fairly standard arc, but I also sort of followed that path in my writing where like my writing the writing the books that I wrote in my 20s, at least my first two published books would read far more cynical than than my later books.
[18:05]So you've chilled out a little bit. Good to know.
[18:09]Nice.
[18:10]Yeah.
[18:11]Oh.
[18:12]Oh, glad I'm meeting you now and not then.
[18:14]But anyway, thank you. Not that I'm just meeting you now, of course.
[18:17]No, you're like, Oh, if you're if you're this mean now, what must you have been like, yeah, and you're 20s.
[18:22]Yeah.
[18:23]Right.
[18:24]I mean, you've got a bit of meanness. Like if you're not mean, then you're rarely funny, right. So it's a, you know, it's a delicate balancing act.
[18:32]Oh, this is perfect timing because I've had this cat eye song stuck in my head all day called God bless the mean girls.
[18:38]So we can, we can make that go play that after and maybe like it and that can be a little arc in your anthem or anthem for this podcast.
[18:46]Excellent.
[18:47]I'll take a while.
[18:48]Yeah.
[18:49]Okay.
[18:50]All right. Thank you so much for your time, Lydia. Congratulations.
[18:53]Beautiful book. Okay.
[18:54]Take care.
[18:55]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi formerly momstone have time to read books.
[19:00]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and spread the word.
[19:08]Thanks so much.
[19:09]Oh, and bye the books.