Sarah Langan on Trad Wives, Twists, and Timing

[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000

[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,

[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really

[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,

[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great

[0:22]read and the story behind it.

[0:24]Enjoy! So the Tradwife phenomenon is all over the news, the magazines,

[0:31]Instagram, and everywhere. And Sarah Langham has the book

[0:35]that you should read, especially if you read yesteryear.

[0:39]This is the perfect accompaniment or replacement

[0:43]or anything if you want to hear about Tradwives with a mix

[0:47]of, well, lots of twists. Let me just leave it at that.

[0:51]Dr. Langham, who I got to interview in person, which was such a treat,

[0:55]is a Columbia MFA graduate and three-time recipient of the Bram Stoker award.

[0:59]She is the author of several novels, including a better world, good neighbors,

[1:03]and now Tradwife. She has gotten her MS in environmental

[1:07]health science grew up on Long Island and currently lives in Los Angeles

[1:11]with her husband and daughters.

[1:13]Welcome, Sarah. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked on your

[1:17]panelists to talk about Tradwives. Congratulations.

[1:21]Thank you so much, and I'm so excited to finally be here and see you in person.

[1:25]You too. It was just replaying our good neighbors episode, and you had just been

[1:29]picked for Barnes and Noble Book Club pick, and you weren't even sure that you and

[1:33]Gillian Flynn were ever going to be on stage, or if it was real, do you even remember that?

[1:37]Yeah, I do. I was very, it was great.

[1:41]How did it go? It went really well.

[1:43]Yeah. It was COVID, so the whole tour was from my house.

[1:49]Yeah. Yeah. So this is a whole new world. Yeah. So this is out in the world.

[1:53]Oh, you've had other books, of course, but nice to not be on Zoom, even for me.

[1:57]Just to be with you. So nice. Thanks a difference, right?

[2:01]Huge. Huge. Okay, Tradwife. This is like the trend of the moment.

[2:05]Did you know that going into this book? Like where did this come from?

[2:09]No, I thought it would be a trend. I didn't know that,

[2:13]but I had no idea what the publishing terrain looked like when I sold it.

[2:19]Right. That's supposed to be sold years ago.

[2:21]Well, I guess now, yeah, about two years ago. Yeah.

[2:25]So you have to kind of do a sear. Yeah.

[2:27]See what's going to happen. Well, it's out everywhere.

[2:29]It's out in Germany now. It's already out.

[2:33]In the UK, it came out in May. So it's been, but I think, you know,

[2:37]yeah, yeah, it's a trend. It's a trend. Okay.

[2:40]What tell everybody what this book is about, Tradwife?

[2:45]So it is about a reporter who's been canceled because she wrote this confessional essay

[2:51]about breaking up with her boyfriend and having an abortion.

[2:55]And so she's been canceled by this radical group called The Brothers of the American Agenda.

[2:59]And they've made sure they can get her fired from her job.

[3:03]And she's in this position where she doesn't know what to do next.

[3:06]And then this opportunity arises to go interview a Tradwife.

[3:10]And her former boss tells her she's got to do it because if she

[3:14]reads a hit piece on this, this woman, then she'll be bigger than her trolls

[3:19]and she'll get her career back.

[3:21]So it's a lot of questions about what do we owe other women in this world

[3:26]that we may not have as much agency as we'd like.

[3:29]So she goes out to the farm for a week.

[3:33]And that's when the story goes into horror.

[3:37]And then you got to read it to find out what happens.

[3:40]And I'm told people are really surprised.

[3:42]I was very surprised.

[3:44]And it was such a satisfying sense of surprise.

[3:47]Like I was like, oh, that is good.

[3:49]You know, in like a writer like just something that you're just like,

[3:52]I, yes, you got me.

[3:54]And I respect that.

[3:56]That's how I felt.

[3:57]That's how I felt.

[3:58]Thank you.

[3:59]Really respect.

[4:00]It's fun to be tricked in a way.

[4:02]Right.

[4:03]Not tricked.

[4:04]It's fun to be surprised.

[4:05]Well, so to me that what I'm doing with the story is sort of mirroring

[4:10]the ways that we internalize convention without knowing why.

[4:16]And we might think we're free, but we're in a box.

[4:20]You know, it's like those chickens, those free-range chickens,

[4:23]and they open their cages every day for like an hour or two.

[4:27]But the chickens don't leave because they're not.

[4:30]They're so used to being in the cage.

[4:33]We're just, it's that it's, you know, people are capable of independent

[4:37]thought, but there are things, especially when it comes to the roles of women

[4:43]that I think we just naturally can't help but internalize.

[4:47]So you don't know, you don't know until you suddenly do.

[4:51]And you're shocked.

[4:53]Oh my gosh.

[4:54]Well, I really liked how you show us the...

[5:00]It's canceled woman who's just like looking for flaws, like cracks in the surface of these

[5:06]influencers online. And what does it mean? Like, is this staged? Is this not staged? Like,

[5:12]what is real? What is not real? Like, what can we learn? Do we expose the flaws we see in

[5:18]other people? Or do we keep it to ourselves? Like, what does that do for us? What does it do for them?

[5:22]It's kind of a question of like, who cares? Like, at the end of the day, it's such small stakes,

[5:29]these ideas of attacking. So I was researching tradwives a little bit, right? And there's the big

[5:35]ones and they're interesting and they're compelling, you know? But do you have a tradwife or two

[5:41]who you follow or who made research for this more fun? Or honestly, I thought they were kind of

[5:46]boring in one note. Like, they're not for me. Like, I, I, sorry, like, I was like, I, but what

[5:54]interested me is like, why the platform was interested in that. But my disclaimer is probably

[5:59]that I'm like, I'm not, I clean the house, but my husband makes the sourdough, my husband does a lot

[6:04]of the cooking. These are not things that are interesting. Like, I'm never going to make cough drops

[6:10]from scratch. Excuse me, who is making cough drops from scratch? Narasmith, but I bet that was a joke.

[6:14]Yeah. You know, when I saw it, I didn't think it was a joke. I think underneath it all, she's,

[6:18]it's just messing with people, but also trying to make some money. Anyway, what I was

[6:24]noticing was that there's an entire ecosystem of women going after tradwives and of these

[6:33]intelligent, they're all intelligent women trying to make a living. And why are they doing it

[6:38]online when they're basically earning a living for a platform? You know, so, so we're all enriching

[6:45]the trillionaires and it's a pyramid scheme. And the trillionaires are at the top, but maybe

[6:51]the tradwives are like there at the top. And they're convincing everybody to surrender their agency,

[6:57]you know, be more like me, right? Right? Don't work. Trust your husband. Stay home. Just worry

[7:05]about the house. And just so they can get a little more power and it reminded me a lot of

[7:10]Phyllis Schlafly, you know, who's single handedly broke the ERA. We don't have an equal rights

[7:16]amendment. It's absurd. The whole amendment is just like women should be equal to men. And people

[7:22]were like, I'm sorry, I can't get behind that. We can't we can't pass that law in this country.

[7:26]Women don't need it. Women don't need it. Anyway, I feel like there's a parallel. I'm going on.

[7:33]I don't know. That's okay. I'm like, oh great. Let's just, yeah, let's look at the platform.

[7:37]No, I'm eating it up. But so that was interesting to me. It was like why this the shiny,

[7:45]beautiful woman who looks like home and love that so many people never had. Of course,

[7:51]that's appealing. Is it true? Is it not true? Is that the question worth asking?

[7:57]You know, or is the question worth asking? Why are the platforms pushing that?

[8:02]You know, I can't say for sure, but I have heard, you know, anecdotally that the platforms

[8:10]push these things because, you know, if you ever go in threads,

[8:14]imagine not on threads. It's a joke. Like anyone posts anything. And it's the least bit

[8:18]controversial is the point to get people to engage. And I feel that that is a little bit of what,

[8:25]you know, the manosphere and the tradwife stuff is. So it's pushed. And then you have sort of,

[8:31]if a woman were to get up and I've heard this, everyone should check it and make sure and say,

[8:36]like, if you can't get abortion in the state, this is where you need to look. If you're having a

[8:41]hard time, those are getting suppressed on the same platforms. So I just wonder who's doing this?

[8:49]Is it intentional? Is it some kind of algorithm created, you know, AI nonsense? Why is this

[8:56]happening? So it's almost like a conspiracy theory from on the part of the social media platforms.

[9:04]Yeah. Yeah. You know, I have a real like, I don't, I think younger people have some savvy.

[9:11]I think they know that a lot of this tradwife stuff is nonsense or I hope they do. I live in

[9:17]California. You know, it's a non issue with Los Angeles. But the rules for women post COVID have been

[9:25]worse. You know, we had the overturn of Roe we weighed. We had, you know, for a few hot years,

[9:33]corporations were trying to mine their staff for their next CEO to be a woman.

[9:40]This involved in cut our representation in exactly in higher offices, you know, and executive

[9:47]positions is worse than it was before. It's a backlash. It's happening. It's being pushed everywhere.

[9:56]It's insidious. And I think we're especially seeing it on social

[10:00]media.

[10:01]Interesting.

[10:03]Let's go back.

[10:04]Yeah.

[10:05]Just cut it.

[10:07]No, I'm not going to cut it.

[10:08]That's interesting.

[10:09]Let's go back to you as a writer.

[10:12]Like, give us your backstory.

[10:14]I know we spoke a couple of years ago, but I'm sure people miss that one.

[10:17]So take us back.

[10:18]How did you become a writer?

[10:20]What was your first book?

[10:21]Like, why are you writing for TV?

[10:23]Like, what is going on with you?

[10:24]Take us back.

[10:25]Okay.

[10:26]So...

[10:27]Okay.

[10:28]Little Sarah.

[10:29]Where did you go to Sarah?

[10:30]My first book when I was 21, I didn't get it published until I was 30, and I worked on it

[10:36]like endlessly trying to get it.

[10:38]Like, I would not give it up.

[10:40]And it was called the Keeper and it came out, I feel like in 2005.

[10:46]And that was great.

[10:48]Like, and I had two more books out.

[10:50]They were all horror, but I think even then it was sort of I was doing literary horror.

[10:55]There was never like, the story opens and somebody dies and then people just keep getting

[10:59]slashed and then the story's over, sort of like my interest has always been in systems.

[11:07]And I use horror as a metaphor for what drives the system.

[11:11]Because I think it is kind of an inhuman thing throughout from the Keeper to the missing

[11:18]to Audrey's door, to good neighbors, to a better world, to Tradwife.

[11:22]Actually, I think in every one of them, the monster is an inhuman system.

[11:28]Because I don't think people are bad.

[11:30]I think people are pretty good, but the gears, the collective gears get together and begin

[11:36]to turn on their own.

[11:38]And the Keeper, why did you not want to give it up?

[11:41]What was it about the Keeper?

[11:42]What was the crux of it that you were like, this has to get out?

[11:45]I have to nail this.

[11:46]I was so passionate about telling the story of, honestly, my father was like, you're

[11:53]retelling the Christ story and you're casting a woman who returns from the dead in a small

[11:58]town in Maine.

[11:59]And it's like, yeah, it's a resurrection, you know, it's this eating of sins, it's this.

[12:04]And what about it was so, I just, that was the story.

[12:09]And I thought at that age, it wasn't about writing a lot of things.

[12:15]It was getting my passion out.

[12:18]And I thought, well, if I just get this book published, that may be enough for me.

[12:22]and then as soon as it came out and I had another book deal, I thought, I guess I could

[12:26]keep going.

[12:27]I'll see how this goes, but I'd never heard Kurt, you know, because the model of writing

[12:32]back then was, you know, you wrote a big book and then you taught or something and then

[12:38]it doesn't exist like that anymore.

[12:40]But I'm glad because I've kept writing and I've gotten better at it, you know, you do

[12:43]get better.

[12:44]Yes.

[12:45]Practice helps.

[12:46]Yeah.

[12:47]Yeah.

[12:48]Oh my gosh.

[12:49]And you are thinking about writing this book, which piece of it?

[12:53]Was it the twist at the end?

[12:54]Like, did you know the whole story as you set out to write it or when you sat down to your

[12:59]computer?

[13:00]Like, what did you have going into it?

[13:01]And you're the whole story.

[13:02]No.

[13:03]Like, I think it's next now.

[13:05]Okay.

[13:06]I had written a short story called, I miss you too much and there was a monster in that

[13:10]that does that performs the same thing as the monster in tribe life.

[13:14]And I thought, I want to write this as a novel very much because it was the scariest

[13:20]thing I had written.

[13:22]So, tried wife sort of encapsulated that, but it also encapsulated to me sort of the system

[13:30]aspect, which I hadn't had in the short story.

[13:33]Like, why is this happening to us?

[13:36]Like, why, why are we living in this really polarized reality?

[13:41]So yeah.

[13:43]And then what?

[13:44]It just like flowed out of you.

[13:45]Yeah.

[13:46]Yeah.

[13:47]Yeah.

[13:48]I mean, it was the, it took a little bit to get the first act right.

[13:53]That's always the case with me because I'm working on the characters' voices and trying

[13:56]to figure out what the best platform will service the story because I knew how it would

[14:03]end.

[14:04]So and it was also like modulating the characters because I wanted to make sure that

[14:10]they were all human.

[14:12]And I didn't want to do, like there's that, it became a trend.

[14:15]And now I can't even like, I know you get blurred books too, and I just, I can't.

[14:20]You can see on page one, it's like, oh, it's, it's the husband is bad.

[14:25]And I've got to get rid of that husband.

[14:27]Maybe they'll kill him, but it was okay because he was a bad guy and I'll be okay.

[14:32]I just was like, I can't do that.

[14:34]I wanted to talk about the ways that everyone is injured by these false ideas of what

[14:40]life should be.

[14:41]So interesting.

[14:42]I feel like the feelings you get reading the book, like one of which is just like, well,

[14:48]yeah, yes, like kind of creeped out, like, you know, goosebumps, like what is happening.

[14:53]But also this feeling of being trapped, like, how can we escape?

[14:57]And I won't go into, you know, the many ways.

[15:00]and people who could potentially be trapped, but where is that coming from?

[15:04]Like, what makes you feel trapped?

[15:06]And like, what is the reader get from that feeling of like,

[15:12]well, I think that works on a few levels, but there's a question of domestic violence.

[15:16]And I think if you are in a position where you don't get to say whether you have children,

[15:22]you will be trapped at home because regardless of whether you wanted it to kid or not,

[15:28]and I love my kids, I was happy to have them.

[15:31]Well, you know, they're going to watch this and they're going to go,

[15:35]what is not talking about that? And it's like, no, but everyone should have the right

[15:40]decide whether this happens. And so under your kids now, 17 and 14.

[15:46]It's nice that you think they're going to watch this.

[15:47]I can't get my kids to actually think I do.

[15:49]Really?

[15:50]They rent a bad wife.

[15:51]One of them went on Goodreads and created an account to give it five stars.

[15:56]Oh my gosh, I should have my kids do that.

[15:58]I didn't know. I was like, you did so sweet.

[16:02]Yeah, that is so sweet.

[16:03]Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, this is the third or sixth book by now,

[16:07]but they still, they're like, what is this?

[16:10]So yeah, yeah, I mean, I can't remember what I was saying.

[16:14]Um, you're talking about the feeling of being trapped in your time of domestic violence and

[16:18]kids. Yeah, if you're at home, and I don't know if you ever saw that,

[16:22]that mini series on Netflix called Made, but I read the book.

[16:26]The book? Oh, yeah.

[16:27]I thought they did that really well where she was trapped and she couldn't get out.

[16:34]And there were all these mechanisms keeping her in the home.

[16:38]And I think if you don't have any kind of financial independence, because you're taking care

[16:44]of children, which is a really important role that should have some financial value,

[16:48]but does not, you're stuck. So there was, it was on that level of just like the basic reality

[16:55]of what it would be like for a woman with seven children without help.

[17:00]What? And, and the way that we parent now is so different. I think when people think,

[17:04]oh, it's like the old times, like pioneer times and something,

[17:07]half those kids died in pioneer times. If that happened now,

[17:12]the tread wife would be in jail. So she can't let that happen.

[17:15]She's got to be following them around and letting, having them blow their neck, whatever.

[17:19]It's a different reality. But on top of that, I think there's also like even in the absence of

[17:25]domestic abuse, when you're home with children, it's just isolating. That's how it is.

[17:33]And I think that can be very hard and it's unseen. And I wanted people to see it. And I think,

[17:41]okay, I've got two more things points to make to that. I'm sorry.

[17:44]Great. I'm just settling in. This is great. Well, let me know when you're done. No,

[17:51]I'm just kidding. It's great. No, it's great. Well, now I forgot. Two points. Yeah.

[18:00]The family like I'm in my basement writing these things are in my garage.

[18:04]And I'm like, there's a trapped feeling there. But I think I had another, but I forgot what it was.

[18:09]Yeah, I forgot. Yeah. That's okay. I mean, two points about, okay, we started with domestic

[18:15]abuse and feeling trapped in the systems that can find you. Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember.

[18:20]No. Okay. All right. Well, two points later, two points later. I was already to just kick back.

[18:25]Yeah. Are you working on another book now? I am. I am. Tell me about that. It's called

[18:32]parent trap. I think I probably have to choose the title that I'm really enjoying it.

[18:37]Like, because it's actually more of like a comedy, but it's got

[18:43]Gonzo unreal things happening in it. So it's about a family that grew up along Ireland

[18:50]and something bad happened. And none of them can remember what it is, but they all think whatever it

[18:55]was was their fault. And I think that's the reason their family has never been the same sense.

[19:00]And so their adults when we open the story and they're all in like,

[19:05]read the corrections, they're all in like ridiculous crisis. Okay. And they realize

[19:11]they have to get together because they'll never figure out why they feel so bad,

[19:18]unless they return to Swap House. This is their house, Swap House, and in confront their parents.

[19:24]That's what it's going to be called. Swap House. That's probably better. Yeah. Sorry.

[19:28]Now you're right. You're right. It should be called Swap House.

[19:31]And but they bring someone to help them like the higher person and that higher person has been

[19:38]a long time trying to get into this house. And now we understand what happened all those years

[19:44]ago and why their parents are so weird. Interesting. Yeah. It's like long island compromise meets

[19:51]culpability meets the house made. Yes. It's like a home invasion. It goes by one page 100. It's just

[19:57]home invasion. Oh my gosh.

[20:00]But they're all like oh my god. I do remember what happened. Yeah. Do you have a book you read lately that you've loved or like an author who you're like

[20:08]I love this person. I will read anything they write or this is why I write is to write books like this or anything like that.

[20:16]You know, I just reread screen with me by Eleanor Jackson and I was so excited because she's talking about all the same stuff that I am.

[20:25]Like I feel like there was a real I was excited about that because what I'm doing in horror I don't often see. Yeah, anyway, so I love her book. It's free with me. I feel like cat ward. She wrote last house on needless room. She's an artist so everything she writes there's something really interesting about it. I read a book called yellow bird that was also nonfiction.

[20:52]And I thought it was a masterpiece. I was amazed. I was like 10 years in the writing, maybe 15 something like that. It was a story of a reporter who's investigating a woman who's investigating a murder on a Native American reservation and it's just it opens up what that reservation is like and what people's lives are like. So interesting. Yeah, so I'm jumping around. Have you read yesterday?

[21:18]I have. Yeah. And what do you think about that so many people ask me that I bet. Yes, you know, the truth is I probably wouldn't think about it if I hadn't written a book called Trad wife. What I will say is my book is so different.

[21:33]My worldview is so different that I wouldn't approach it in that way. But it is poppy. You know, it's it's really it's what it's written in a way that's really a page turner.

[21:47]Okay, so do you have any advice for aspiring authors? Yeah, I feel like be aware and try and figure out what feedback is makes sense to you and what feedback feels superfluous because I think it's really easy to just bang your head against a wall trying to get a publishing deal or trying to get an agent and usually there's a reason it's not happening.

[22:14]There's timing, but there's also like tweaks and little things you could change. The problem is you know finding that balance between knowing who you are as a writer knowing where your lines are but also taking in that information of well, you know, I mean, I hear people. Yeah, send the right people and and target make it really figure out what you want and target from there as opposed to following whatever.

[22:44]Or what the books tell you we're going for the top agent at the top house. I mean, that's ideal and that would be wonderful, but also look at your work and figure out if it fits.

[22:56]I love that. Thank you. Well Sarah, this has been so interesting. Trad wife. Yes, or but also really like almost domestic suspense. Can we say that? Yeah, I would say that too. Yeah, because this I don't really read a lot of horror and I feel like this fit more and but we can go with books. It's a hybrid. It doesn't even matter. Okay, Trad wife. Thank you. Thank you.

[23:19]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi, formerly momstone have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh and bye the books.