This is What Happens When Women Read with Julianna Glasse
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy.
[0:27]Okay, Juliana Glass.
[0:28]She is a dynamo.
[0:30]She's the author of This is What Happens When Women Read,
[0:34]A Memoir.
[0:35]She is a former Christian pop star in the founder and CEO
[0:39]of This is What Happens When Women Read,
[0:41]a global organization dedicated to the liberation of women
[0:44]through education and safe community.
[0:47]She holds a master's degree from the Said Business School
[0:49]at Oxford University,
[0:51]with which she has created a partnership to provide scholarships
[0:54]to educate support and empower women
[0:56]who have left restrictive religious communities.
[0:59]She currently resides in New York City
[1:01]and I absolutely loved not only talking to her
[1:05]for this podcast about the many ups and downs
[1:07]she went through in her life
[1:09]and her inspirational new organization.
[1:11]But I got to be with her in person at our most anticipated
[1:15]luncheon that she came to in New York.
[1:17]And I'm sure you can see photos of us on Instagram
[1:20]soon there, but wow, what a dynamo.
[1:23]I don't know how else to say it.
[1:24]Enjoy your episode.
[1:25]Welcome, Juliana.
[1:26]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Book
[1:28]to talk about This is What Happens When Women Read.
[1:31]Yeah, thank you for having me.
[1:34]Oh my gosh.
[1:35]Oh my gosh.
[1:36]You have to be here.
[1:37]Winner of the best title of the Book Award.
[1:39]Yes, I know you've taken that and run with it.
[1:43]I have a relationship with it.
[1:44]Everything happens when women read.
[1:46]We know this.
[1:47]The whole world changes.
[1:49]Oh my gosh.
[1:50]Well, Juliana, your story is absolutely incredible.
[1:55]You have gone through so many, first of all,
[1:57]just so much in your life that you record in the book.
[2:00]So many ups and downs.
[2:02]So many times where you at sometimes just like literally
[2:06]have to pick yourself up off the floor and keep going
[2:09]and reinvent and find that inner strength over and over
[2:13]again.
[2:14]And it's just it's just amazing.
[2:16]It's a really, really powerful read and a powerful sort
[2:20]of life and all the different hats you've worn from like
[2:23]super famous Christian singer to like, you know, trying
[2:28]to deal with family and terrible mean people online.
[2:34]And like, I mean, you just like run through all of it
[2:36]and come out the other side with grace and a story
[2:40]to tell and how great is that?
[2:42]Yeah, it's such a journey and I'm so grateful.
[2:45]I'm grateful to be here.
[2:47]I'm grateful that we can die even while still being alive.
[2:51]And that I think it was Stephen Hawking said or so long
[2:56]as there is still life we have hope.
[2:58]And I really have taken that as just permission to never
[3:02]stop and to always be resilient and to believe in myself
[3:07]and to believe in the power to recreate one's life
[3:12]and to make a meaningful and beautiful life for yourself.
[3:15]And then also the reality that no one does this work for us.
[3:18]is up to us to create a life of meaning and beauty for ourselves.
[3:25]At times, easier said than done them.
[3:27]I think that's why people need always easier stuff than done.
[3:31]That's why every story that exhibits this, you know,
[3:34]people will latch onto and just say like, yeah,
[3:36]okay, she can do it.
[3:37]I can do it.
[3:38]Maybe we should go back and explain a little bit about your story
[3:43]and your marriage, leaving your marriage.
[3:46]I mean, I don't know how much you want to like quote unquote
[3:47]give away it is your life and it's pretty obvious.
[3:49]But can you just tell a little bit more about the trajectory
[3:55]and maybe just some of the biggest moments
[3:57]where you had to do what you're saying and reinvent, recreate.
[4:02]Absolutely.
[4:03]So I was raised in a very conservative Christian household.
[4:07]My father was my pastor.
[4:08]My mom was my home school teacher for a number of years.
[4:11]So I just say I was indoctrinated into a religious system
[4:16]or religious framework through which I saw the entire world
[4:20]in my life.
[4:21]It's kind of like if you're born and immediately contact lenses
[4:25]put on your eyeballs without your consent.
[4:27]It really shapes the fabric of one's life completely.
[4:32]It's not just your religion in the way that you worship God.
[4:35]It's your philosophies, your ethics, the way that you understand
[4:39]being a woman, the way that you see your role in the world
[4:41]and really your purpose for being here.
[4:43]And I saw my purpose as being a missionary
[4:47]to try and convert people to Christianity.
[4:50]And so I took it very seriously and became a Christian pop singer.
[4:54]I recorded seven different releases and three different books
[4:57]and it was teaching tens of thousands of women at a time.
[5:00]That essentially that their proximity to God was in direct correlation to their proximity to a man, whether that be their dad as the head of the house or their husband.
[5:09]And again, it's ubiquitous. It's the only thing I understood and knew about the world.
[5:15]I had a very public marriage. Yes. And we were just kind of considered like this powerhouse Christian couple.
[5:22]At the height, saying for Donald Trump's 2017 national prayer breakfast weekend.
[5:27]And so there's, you know, all of this rhetoric around anti-LGBTQ and anti women's rights perspective within the institution of the religion.
[5:36]And as a Christian artist, you would often have to sign these statements of faith.
[5:40]And so contractually, I was obligated to align with their morality clause.
[5:47]I had the extreme honor of having moved in next door next to my gay neighbors.
[5:54]And Mark and Patrick, I renamed them in the book, but Mark and Patrick, Mark was a pastor.
[6:00]And I was like, you cannot be a Christian and be a pastor.
[6:03]Like this is incompatible. Like this is not allowed. You know, and the LGBTQ community, I can say it just folded me in so graciously.
[6:12]And we're so patient with me and sharing with me their stories, sharing with me their stories of conversion therapy, which didn't work, thank God.
[6:21]And as I got close to what I had been told to be afraid of, I realized that I was actively participating in an institution that was oppressing and harming quite violently at times.
[6:34]This gorgeous community of my friends in the LGBTQ world and I had my three children, I had my son and my two daughters.
[6:41]And now I'm like, as life is moving on, I'm starting to look at these ideologies that I had so firmly upheld and thinking about how they apply to my children and not being able to not being able to come to terms with ever teaching my daughter that she needed to be subservient to a man.
[7:02]Or ever teaching my son that he was, you know, spiritually in charge of his whole house and that that was, you know, this pressure that he has to take on before God.
[7:12]I could just became absurd to me that I would ever teach it. And so then I start thinking how am I even, how have I believed this about myself.
[7:20]And what has that done to my sense of worth and my value and my ability to speak up and my ability to stretch my mind.
[7:28]And so I started reading a friend of mine who I talked about in the book introduced me to philosophy and I fell in love.
[7:35]I fell in love with literature. I fell in love with philosophy and then transcendentalism and poetry and, you know, as I began to be more liberated intellectually and spiritually that world around me just got increasingly more threatened and threatening.
[7:53]So I mean, what is more dangerous than a woman who is liberating herself who is setting herself free from the inside out.
[8:01]Admittedly, I didn't really have the language. I did not have the language to really articulate what was happening to me internally.
[8:08]I had a lot and my life was very private and I was very scared. But in a kind of a profound moment of clarity, my then husband had gathered my books together on our bedroom floor and we were having an argument.
[8:24]And he started mocking one of them and then threw it and pointed at me and he said, you see, this is what happens when women read.
[8:33]And, you know, for me it was both the exit sign of my life and the runway of my life lit up.
[8:40]It was like you are leaving and you are going and I took out my phone and in all caps of my notes that broke. This is what happens in women read.
[8:48]It's like, this is what I am called to do. I am called to liberate myself and I realized what I had said earlier that no one would do this for me.
[8:58]It was my job to self-actualize if that's what I was wanting to do. And I took out my journal and I wrote on the top of it, show your children this freedom because all of a sudden it was like we have to show them another way.
[9:12]So, very long story short, I left in 2019, decided to go back to school, obviously COVID hit, did a lot remote and then graduated from the University of Oxford in 2023.
[9:25]And that's when I realized because I did my research in the internal oppressors of weaponized religion against women around the world and I realized that this is not just American evangelicals.
[9:35]This is not just the conservative Christian woman who doesn't have a vote, which was my case.
[9:45]Women around the globe are affected by whether it's religion or culture or familial different systems of oppression that keep them tied and keep them subjugated to whatever it is the culture as determined they be subjugated to.
[10:00]And so, anyway, that it became a vital necessity for me to sort of recreate and reorient
[10:07]my life in a way that serves these women, women just like me, and creates parallels amongst
[10:14]us when so often in our culture we create even hierarchical structures between our suffering.
[10:20]You know, we think like we don't have it as bad because my boyfriend only verbally abuses
[10:25]me.
[10:26]He doesn't physically abuse me.
[10:27]And these relationships we stay in these institutions because there's always a woman
[10:31]that hasn't worse than us.
[10:33]But that will always be the case.
[10:35]And what that does is that it continues to perpetuate and uphold these systems because
[10:39]we don't talk about it.
[10:41]So, my need for writing, this is what happens when women read, was really to exist in that
[10:48]refusal to exchange one savior for another, you know, like refusal to be like, I am
[10:55]yet another woman who I wasn't even jealical, now I'm an exfangelical, or I was
[10:59]at this and then I fell in love and now it's about this and it's like we're constantly
[11:04]making other things and other identities and other labels and other people that he knows
[11:08]of her own story.
[11:09]So when you read my book, you'll see as you read it, like there's a whole period of
[11:14]like just exploration and fun and play and travel and sex and like just being out in
[11:22]the world and being free to discover.
[11:25]So my hope for the book is that it really kind of lives in that liminal space between
[11:31]dogmatism where it is non-prescriptive, it's an exploration, it is a journey, but it's
[11:37]not prescriptive in any way.
[11:39]Yeah, no, it did not read as prescriptive and thank you for sharing all of that so beautifully.
[11:44]You know, you also have, and maybe we shouldn't even talk about it, but there was something
[11:49]very painful that happened to you, you know, when you were about 12 years old that you
[11:54]allude to throughout the book and then probably in the last third really explain what
[11:58]happened.
[11:59]And at that point, the reader is already just so loving you, right?
[12:03]We are all rooting for you so much and then it's like a take your breath away type moment
[12:08]where you slowly reveal what had happened and how you repressed some of these memories
[12:13]and how you had to go on and sort of square what happened with your faith and life
[12:19]and you know, the cognitive gymnastics you had to go through and then sort of reliving
[12:25]and making peace with what you remember and you know, all of that.
[12:30]And it really, I mean, when set you back, obviously, like when you have to process this
[12:36]unprocessed trauma, can you talk a little bit about this or I'm not saying it because
[12:40]I don't know if you want me to say it, but yeah, I mean, I think I won't go into the
[12:45]details.
[12:46]I'll let the reader, it just deserves so much honor and care.
[12:50]Yep.
[12:51]So when the reader reads it, they'll understand, but I think so many of us, we live with
[12:58]pain that's not external and so much of our suffering is internal.
[13:04]And I will often, when I'm flying, I'll look out the window and you'll just see like,
[13:08]you know, the thousands of homes, there's thousands of lives and we're all collectively
[13:14]living with pain that we don't know of with one another.
[13:18]And so my decision to include that was really prompted off of the public shaming because
[13:25]it was such a parallel of just extreme sexual violence and it was difficult to understand
[13:34]how someone could be that way.
[13:37]I almost understood physical violence more than I understood the verbal violence that
[13:44]was coming at me and the death threats and the rape threats.
[13:47]And I just couldn't make sense of it in my mind.
[13:51]So anyway, it was important for me to share because it felt honoring to my story and it felt
[13:58]like something we don't talk about, maybe enough.
[14:03]I don't know.
[14:04]Yeah.
[14:05]No.
[14:06]Look, it's so hard to talk about.
[14:08]No words.
[14:09]I clearly don't usually talk about this.
[14:10]This is where just read the book.
[14:12]You guys all understand it.
[14:13]Just go and read the book.
[14:14]I'm sorry.
[14:15]I didn't mean to put you on the spot.
[14:16]No, no, no.
[14:17]You know, so powerful, so moving, the way you write about it is for one another and
[14:22]it was for each other and an understanding that life is so complex and nuanced and you
[14:28]could see the most beautiful looking of a life and just simply don't understand the pain
[14:33]that someone has suffered or is maybe currently suffering.
[14:37]So it's like you think at the least we could be polite.
[14:39]Do you feel like that?
[14:40]Yeah.
[14:41]At a baseline.
[14:42]Could we not just be polite to one another, like passing on the street or shoving, you
[14:46]know, trying to get in the front of the lines and like all the, and the airports, you know,
[14:50]can we all just not be nice to each other?
[14:51]That's like, yeah.
[14:52]That's right.
[14:53]That is right.
[14:54]We're all on this very strange spinning rock in the middle of a universe that we don't understand.
[15:00]I feel like we could be a little bit more patient
[15:02]with one another.
[15:04]You had this really moving moment,
[15:06]well, many, many moving moments,
[15:08]but one where it's the holidays,
[15:10]you don't have your kids, you're alone,
[15:12]you've gained weight, you're just like hitting rock bottom.
[15:16]You feel like you're unrecognizable.
[15:18]You've been in the star call for a while,
[15:21]very depressed, all of it, and yet you rebounded.
[15:24]Can you share just a little bit of the how
[15:28]for people who maybe are still in a dark place?
[15:31]Or I feel like, okay, well, she did it,
[15:33]but no, I could never do that.
[15:35]I could never get out of the situation.
[15:36]I'm stuck.
[15:37]Yeah, this was a really powerful moment
[15:39]of reclaiming my agency and really believing
[15:42]that no, you are actually in charge of your body.
[15:46]You're actually in charge of what you consume.
[15:49]For me, I was teetering on alcoholism.
[15:52]If I wasn't actually in alcoholic,
[15:54]I was not working out, I was deeply depressed,
[15:59]I was not on medication, I was sleeping all day.
[16:02]It was a very, very scary time of self-loathing
[16:05]and suicidal ideation.
[16:07]And for me, it was like, no.
[16:10]Like, you are, I had to decide for the sake of my children.
[16:15]And it was really my children, I think,
[16:16]that saved my life.
[16:18]You are worth living.
[16:19]You are worth being here.
[16:20]So long as we are alive, we have hoped, right?
[16:23]So the active steps, number one, was stop drinking.
[16:28]I did a detox for many, many days.
[16:31]I started working out.
[16:32]I had the luxury of hiring a personal trainer, which I did.
[16:36]But if you have the ability to walk or to run,
[16:39]you have, and if you have the ability to do a push-up,
[16:42]you can work out.
[16:43]I went on medication for depression.
[16:46]I also call this whatever you want to call it.
[16:50]I don't know.
[16:50]People have plenty of different thoughts about it.
[16:51]But I went on the weight loss drug, too.
[16:55]For me, it was a holistic approach to tackling shame.
[17:00]And I was at such a vital, just a vital moment
[17:04]of you are either going to survive this or not.
[17:06]And we are going to fucking survive.
[17:08]And I went on all of these things.
[17:12]Again, I didn't stay on them for a long time.
[17:14]I stayed on them until my brain could function the way
[17:17]that I needed to function until I got healthy again.
[17:19]And then I was able to wean myself off.
[17:23]Everyone's journey is so different with these things.
[17:25]But it is, I cannot stress how active you have to be.
[17:32]It's your decision in your body.
[17:35]No one else is forcing you.
[17:37]And so just to reclaiming of your health
[17:40]is such a powerful decision to make.
[17:42]I love that.
[17:44]And by the way, no judgment.
[17:46]I dedicated my book to Manjaro.
[17:48]I'm totally a fan.
[17:49]So whatever you need, whatever you need.
[17:54]Can you talk a little bit about the activism
[17:56]that has come as a result of this is what happens when women
[18:00]read and how you've taken this concept and run with it?
[18:02]Oh, my goodness, it's been so fun.
[18:04]So we partnered with the University of Oxford.
[18:08]I get to identify emerging feminist leaders
[18:10]around the world that are leaving high control situations.
[18:14]Some of them high control religion,
[18:15]some high control culture, some high control families.
[18:18]And these women are so brave.
[18:21]And it's like, for whatever reason,
[18:23]they just have this tenacity and this audaciousness
[18:27]to imagine a life for themselves that they've never seen.
[18:31]So one of our scholars, our inaugural scholar, her name's
[18:34]Smitty, she lived in India.
[18:37]And in this state of Bihar, it's very conservative.
[18:38]You're not allowed to leave your house without your father.
[18:42]You're literally not allowed to look at another man in the eyes
[18:44]that's not your dad or your brother.
[18:46]And so all of a sudden, this brilliant woman, Smitty,
[18:49]is applying to Oxford.
[18:51]She gets our scholarship.
[18:53]And she, I was sitting with her at the University.
[18:56]And she said, Juliana, every time I'm walking outside
[18:59]and I'm looking at someone in the eyes
[19:00]and I'm smiling at them, it is a profound act of courage.
[19:04]And I just have like, it's so awesome to see these women
[19:08]setting themselves free.
[19:09]Women will always set themselves free
[19:12]in whatever way that they're able to.
[19:14]And so what we're able to offer at,
[19:16]this is what happens when women read as an organization,
[19:19]is just the financial support and backing
[19:22]to allow these women to liberate themselves.
[19:26]So it looks different.
[19:27]It's like one scholar is escaping FGM.
[19:30]One scholar is refusing and arranged marriage.
[19:32]One scholar is saying, you cannot control my access.
[19:35]One scholar is saying, she didn't even tell her family
[19:38]that she was going to the University until like three days
[19:40]before she left, because that's how volatile it was.
[19:44]So these women are disruptors and they're liberators.
[19:46]And it is like the profound, the most profound work
[19:49]of my life to get to offer this to them.
[19:53]So if people wanted to be inspired by some of the books
[19:57]and I know you reference many of them by n-
[20:00]name and all of that.
[20:01]Where should the person who's longing for this type of
[20:05]inspiration start aside from your book, of course?
[20:09]Well, yeah, start here because in the back.
[20:11]Yes, you have a whole thing.
[20:12]I have a whole liberation library.
[20:14]Yeah.
[20:15]It goes through like poetry and psychology and philosophy.
[20:18]And, you know, there's a quote by Whitman
[20:21]and he says, reexamine all you've learned
[20:23]in school, in church, in any book,
[20:25]and dismiss whatever insults your own soul.
[20:28]I love about that is not just the permission
[20:31]to dismiss what insults your soul,
[20:33]but the permission to then distill down
[20:36]and absorb what serves.
[20:38]And so in that respect, pick up any book, any damn book,
[20:41]just pick it up, it's fine, you don't pick up any book.
[20:45]And give yourself the permission to dismiss
[20:48]what insults it and to take what is yours.
[20:52]And that's the power of literature.
[20:54]That's the power of reading is our ability
[20:57]to become the agents of our own lives.
[21:01]Okay, and then in the meantime, you already wrote
[21:03]this like amazing memoir.
[21:05]It's not just that you were going through all of this
[21:06]and starting the nonprofit or do, you know,
[21:09]when did you know you had a book on your hands
[21:12]and how did you approach the project?
[21:15]How did you do it?
[21:15]Yeah, well, I mean, the moment I was told,
[21:18]this is what happens when we were married.
[21:19]I knew that that would be the cover of my book.
[21:22]I knew that would be the title of my book.
[21:24]I started in 2019 and it started on note cards,
[21:27]a whole filing thing of note cards.
[21:30]And it was quotes that I was reading and books I was reading
[21:33]and things that were changing sort of the inner architecture
[21:36]of my life and just collecting them
[21:39]and then writing down the stories and what was really
[21:42]formative and what really did change my life
[21:45]and what was a crucible moment
[21:48]and each of these steps of evolution,
[21:52]what were these steps for me?
[21:54]And then I realized in 2021 that it was very important
[21:58]for me to not exchange one savior for another.
[22:02]So it's not, I was an evangelical,
[22:05]now I'm an ex-fangelical or I was married
[22:08]and now I fell in love with a different person.
[22:09]Like, it cannot be the exchange of one savior for another.
[22:13]It has to be finding that hero within myself.
[22:17]And so I stopped in 2021, stopped writing,
[22:20]and just played, like we were talking about,
[22:22]just had this very promiscuous stage of my life,
[22:25]spiritually and sexually in every other way
[22:28]intellectually as well.
[22:29]And really just tried to understand
[22:32]Julianna for Julianna as like my own person
[22:37]in a restaurant by myself with no one else.
[22:40]What do I order?
[22:41]What do I actually like, you know?
[22:43]Like even just the simplest of the simplest of acts
[22:48]like that just to discover myself.
[22:50]And then once I felt like I had explored
[22:53]sort of all of the areas that I wanted to explore,
[22:56]I picked up the pen again in 2024
[22:57]and then finished it in a year.
[23:00]Well, yeah, it is a joy in a journey.
[23:04]And I think I'm a method writer.
[23:05]Like I really like, I do.
[23:08]I get like very much into my journals
[23:10]to understand what was my headspace at the time
[23:13]and really where was I and how was I,
[23:16]how was I talking about God
[23:17]and the whole period of my life
[23:19]when I'm talking about goddess
[23:20]and the whole period of my life
[23:21]where I'm talking about God with the lowercase G
[23:23]and he's really trying to be very intentional
[23:26]about where my psyche was in the moment
[23:29]that I was reading or in the moment
[23:32]that I was writing that particular stage in the book.
[23:35]Do you feel that as like an objectively
[23:39]quite beautiful woman?
[23:41]You are so, you're just like,
[23:42]you're like a textbook beautiful woman
[23:44]with like the perfect blonde hair in the face.
[23:46]Do you feel people misjudge you or underestimate you
[23:51]or assume you're one way when you're another way?
[23:55]Like you're a brilliant, like tell me about,
[23:57]do you ever feel like that or is that just a random question?
[23:59]No, totally.
[24:00]I mean, I think we all, we do that to each other all the time.
[24:04]I humans just have this very strange need
[24:07]to define who you are so that they can create
[24:11]this hierarchical structure and understand
[24:13]where you fall within that, right?
[24:14]So like we do that with image all the time.
[24:16]We do that with the way that people present themselves
[24:19]visually and how they dress.
[24:20]We do that in whether or not they're wearing makeup.
[24:22]We do that with what their haircut looks like
[24:25]and we make predeterminations on humans constantly
[24:29]because of who they are visually.
[24:31]I will say that I sort of, I felt this trap
[24:35]when I was giving my case study at Oxford
[24:37]because I thought you're so tall.
[24:40]There was a period of my life where I really hated being tall
[24:42]because I felt like too big in a world
[24:46]where I was supposed to be modest.
[24:47]How tall are you?
[24:48]So five, 11.
[24:50]And so with heels, I can be like six, three very easily
[24:53]and taller than most men.
[24:54]And so I'm at the university and I'm giving my final...
[25:00]presentation and it's like six hours long and I'm like just don't be too much don't be visually too much
[25:06]don't be too beautiful don't whatever so I wore our college sweatshirt side business school sweatshirt and
[25:14]I wore flats and I wore no makeup. I'm like Julianna you're literally succumbing to the very thing
[25:22]you're trying to fight against which is this notion that a woman can't be beautiful and intelligent at
[25:28]the same time where that that we could ever any one of us could be too big too tall too too
[25:33]much you know and so I thought to myself like never ever again I'm never doing that again I'm going
[25:38]to be as big as I possibly can because it's not about me there's a Chinese proverb that says
[25:46]something like I think it's Chinese proverb that says don't mistake the finger for the moon
[25:51]meaning like if the moon is the goal liberation of women equality for all
[25:57]justice for all safety and joy and happiness for all if that's the moon then don't mistake
[26:04]the finger the finger being me I'm just talking about what I want for everyone right and we're all
[26:09]just like actively living our lives in a way that is either expressing and offering permission to live
[26:18]big and beautiful or the opposite there's a quote by Maria Pogo she says
[26:22]the nothing changes the history of the world more profoundly than changing the landscape of
[26:28]permission and possibility for others and I'm like oh love that is the finger at the moon right
[26:34]I love that every room you walk into whether it's a living room or a board room or a school room
[26:40]you're either actively expanding or contracting the landscape of permission and possibility for
[26:46]other people I love that that's such a great rally and cry yes it's a much more specific way
[26:53]to say let's try to help each other yeah yeah all right well Juliana thank you so much I truly
[26:59]enjoyed reading your book I am so inspired by it and I can't wait to see what you do in the world
[27:06]thank you so much and thank you and I'll see you next week I know I can't wait I'll see you next week
[27:11]okay bye thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi formerly momstone have time to read
[27:17]books if you loved the show tell a friend leave a review follow me on instagram at Zibi Owens
[27:24]and spread the word thanks so much oh and bye the books