Christine Pride and Jo Piazza on The Ripple Effect of Secrets
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and the story behind it. Enjoy!
[0:27]Christine Pride and Joe Piazza are co-authors of I Never New You and All.
[0:32]By the way, this was their first interview about the book and I loved getting
[0:36]in on the ground floor and watching as they tried to nail down their process of
[0:40]talking over each other for the book and everything they've both been on this podcast
[0:45]many times together and separately and it was so fun to gather. It felt like a meeting
[0:50]of old friends. Here's a little bit more about them. Christine Pride is a writer, editor,
[0:54]and longtime publishing veteran who has held editorial posts at many different trade
[0:58]imprints. She, as an editor, has published many best-selling and critically acclaimed novels
[1:04]and memoirs and now in addition to writing novels, she does select editorial work,
[1:08]proposal and content development, teaching, and coaching.
[1:11]Joe Piazza is a best-selling author, podcast creator, and award-winning journalist.
[1:16]She is the national and international best-selling author of many critically acclaimed novels,
[1:21]including We Are Not Like Them, Charlotte Walsh likes to win, the knock-off and how to be married.
[1:26]Her work has been published in 10 languages in 12 countries. Four of her books have been
[1:30]optioned for film and TV. She was a former editor and columnist for Yahoo Current TV and the
[1:36]daily news and her work has appeared basically everywhere at Wall Street Journal, New York Times,
[1:41]Slatemore. She has an undergraduate degree from the University of Pennsylvania and Economics
[1:45]and Communication, a Master's in Journalism from Columbia and a Master's in Religious Studies
[1:50]from New York University. This is their third book, COVID, and by the two of them. The first was
[1:56]We Are Not Like Them in 2021, which was a good morning American book club pick, and then you were
[2:00]always mine in 2023. Enjoy our very fun discussion. Welcome, Joe and Christine. I'm so delighted to
[2:07]have you both back on totally book to talk about your latest book, I never knew you at all. Congratulations.
[2:14]Thank you so happy to be here. She really, really enjoyed the book, all the twists and turns.
[2:21]I didn't know what was going to happen when I started out, obviously, developed a lot of
[2:25]affection for these characters. Couldn't believe some of the things. Happy about some of the other
[2:29]things. Love how, anyway, I won't give anything away, but I really appreciated the resolution of
[2:37]what, anyway, I guess I should have seen this later. I mean, why don't you tell everybody what
[2:40]the book is about? Oh my gosh, we don't have my signals ready. Like, we usually got so good at this
[2:51]with the first two books, like we had signals, where we would be like, like, wink once, and then
[2:55]Christine would start. Christine, you start and then I'll pick up. Okay, sounds good. So this book is
[3:02]about a woman named Simone, and she is a black woman married to a white man, as you know from our
[3:08]previous books. Joan, I really like to explore the issues of race and intimate relationships,
[3:12]and in this case, it's a marriage. And so Simone's husband, Alex, is about to inherit
[3:18]this chain of high-end grocery stores from his grandfather, that his grandfather started,
[3:24]and his grandfather raised him. And so all is going well for Alex and Simone, until Simone's
[3:30]ex-boyfriend, Kwame, who's a prominent journalist, starts digging into a story from the past
[3:37]that happens to involve Simone's grandfather, Alex's person who raised him, and it may or may not
[3:46]be a crime, and this thing in the past obviously exposes all kinds of secrets, traumas, and really
[3:55]moral dilemmas, and it asks the question, you know, how much is the past really the past? And it has
[4:00]some very present day effects on all these characters and their relationships. I mean,
[4:06]yeah, and it unfolds in real time, as Kwame is investigating this for a true crime podcast,
[4:15]this potential murder that is also potentially a hate crime. And so we watch all of the characters,
[4:21]Simone, Alex, and Kwame grapple with this very differently, and they all have different
[4:27]views about, you know, how should we judge what someone did in the past? What kinds of consequences
[4:35]should they face, and what kind of long-term damage has this inflicted? And really, every character
[4:44]in the book is keeping some sort of secret from someone, right? You could almost like make a little
[4:49]chart. If like, this is this person's secret, and this is, she doesn't want this person to know,
[4:54]and sometimes the secrets have been held for decades and decades, and what do you do when you
[5:00]on something that is sort of eating away at you and yet you don't feel like you can come forward
[5:06]and share it. And what does that do to you as a person and your sense of character and all of that?
[5:11]Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I've been thinking about this a lot because I do think
[5:17]about the things that we hide from even the closest people in our lives from our husbands,
[5:23]from our lovers, from our best friends, and then our sisters and our children.
[5:29]And I think everyone has one of those. I mean, I think a lot of us consider ourselves very
[5:34]honest and open people, but there's always one thing that we keep to walk away. And we do it for
[5:40]a reason. We do it because we are afraid of the shame of the guilt and of being judged. And you know,
[5:47]what would happen if that one terrible secret that you're hiding from this person who you truly
[5:52]love you truly care about gets out. And what is the ripple effect of that through the rest of
[5:58]your life and the rest of your relationship? And for Alex and Simone, this has huge consequences
[6:06]on what has up until now been what looks like a picture perfect life and a picture perfect happy
[6:12]marriage. And I think also they're the secrets that we keep from other people, but a big part of
[6:18]this book that we wanted to explore with these characters is the secrets we keep from ourselves.
[6:23]A lot of this book is about, you know, taking a good hard look at the truths you told
[6:30]yourself about your own life, about what you really want, about who you really love, about the type
[6:36]of relationship that you wanted, the type of life that you wanted, what the type of career that you
[6:42]wanted, you know, what, what gives you meaning in life. And there's sometimes it disconnect with
[6:51]what we think we want and what we say we want and what we actually do want. And sometimes it takes
[6:58]a major event or shake up or revelation or change to on earth that. And so these characters are
[7:07]in a lot of different journeys, both with each other and confronting stuff at the past,
[7:12]but they're also on deep self improvement journey who's their, you know, self discovery journeys.
[7:18]And so it was interesting to look at it from all these different angles with these three
[7:22]different points of view. I think one of my favorite scenes was when Simone takes Langston and goes
[7:28]and visits her mom in the middle of the night and then goes on a walk her mom's famous walk
[7:34]with her. And they talk about what she, you know, should she have married Alex, what was her mom
[7:41]thinking at the time? Like there were sometimes you have to be with people who've known you forever
[7:46]to get the real reflection of like, what, what if? What were you thinking? Like here's what I saw,
[7:51]what did you see? And a lot of people can't tell you that. Sometimes it's only in the safety of
[7:57]your family, perhaps or at a certain time when it all comes out. Tell me a little bit about
[8:03]that sort of moment of, of, of really self realization. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I love that scene
[8:12]and I love Simone's mom so much because I think she is such a straight shooter. And she's also
[8:19]been biting her tongue so much for the past decade or so when it comes to Alex despite the fact
[8:27]that she is like so open and forthcoming about everything else in Simone's life. And like she finally
[8:32]sees this chink in the armor and she finally sees this opportunity. And she's like, I am going to
[8:37]take it. And she takes it and she goes there. And that's the moment when you realize that,
[8:42]you know, Simone really was hiding a lot of this from herself. And her mom knew it all along.
[8:48]And so her mom kind of acts as this mirror to reflect what Simone has been keeping locked inside
[8:54]for so long. And I think there's always or usually someone in your life that can tell it to you
[9:03]like it is, right? Like both they're made up of, you know, they have the ability to tell you like it is,
[9:09]you know, some people are more straight shooters than others. And that definitely is Simone's mom.
[9:15]But also that you, that person you can hear it from, right? We can't always hear the hard truths
[9:21]from everybody. And so it has to be the right personality and the right relationship and the right
[9:26]moment in time. And so all of it was kind of came together. And you know, in all of our books and
[9:32]in every book really, right? We're trying to find these touch points that are of course relatable,
[9:38]right? And I think that we can all relate to a moment like that. And so we think it's a good book club
[9:44]conversation, right? To trace back to these kind of, you know, when was the moment that somebody was
[9:50]able to tell you a hard truth, right? When was a moment that somebody revealed something to about
[9:55]yourself or had like a real honest conversation that you could hear?
[10:00]And they, you know, change tell you thought about a situation, and that's those are really powerful
[10:06]moments when they happen on the page, but also when they happen in real life.
[10:10]Would you like to answer that question, Christine?
[10:12]You know I would not.
[10:15]All of us might be riding in the car.
[10:23]Well, in the same way that I felt like you could have a diagram with everybody's secrets,
[10:28]I feel like there's another diagram where everybody has a close friend, like you have a lot
[10:35]of great diodes or essentially duos in fiction.
[10:39]And often something happens to one or the other that has so many effects to the whole relationship,
[10:45]whether it's Jedediah back in school or Alex and his buddy is trying to help him with the business
[10:52]or Tracy and Simone or they're just so many that go back so long.
[10:57]And it's almost your reflection on well what are the things that our best friends tell us about
[11:03]ourselves and what can we accept and what do we not really want to accept and what do they bring
[11:10]out in us that's really great and and whatnot.
[11:12]So when you were when you were crafting the characters, did you think about like who was their good
[11:18]friend going to be or did it just happen like that?
[11:21]Actually, that's funny, Joe is shaking her head, but I think it's really funny to go back like,
[11:26]you know, it's when this book comes out, it'll actually be the five year anniversary of
[11:30]we are not like that, which is our debut novel, which focused on a friendship.
[11:35]And I think that has been such a through line in our stories.
[11:38]This idea of you do if you're lucky enough have one person in your life, right?
[11:43]That can be the sounding bordered witness.
[11:46]So I think to some degree it's purposeful, but when you pointed it out,
[11:50]I mean, we do have these these pairs and I don't know that we really sat down to say,
[11:55]this person has this best friend and this person is this best friend, but I think it speaks to
[12:00]almost subconsciously, Joe and I believe so much in the power, right?
[12:05]A friendship in these relationships to be life changing and long term.
[12:10]And so I think a lot of this just organically arose when you think about,
[12:15]okay, here's a character and who is the person that's important to them in their life.
[12:22]And and as it happens, everybody, everybody does have that person in the story.
[12:28]And their, their touch points or how they're meaningful in their lives is a little bit different,
[12:35]you know, from from relationship to relationship.
[12:38]You were shaking your head, Joe. Do you feel like we did that more?
[12:42]Well, I actually maybe I remember it differently, right?
[12:45]This is the crazy thing about having two authors.
[12:47]I don't think that we had this web of relationships in the first draft,
[12:52]but I think that when we did either the second or the third pass, we did have this long conversation
[12:58]about like who has who to lean on and like that's when we bulged up a lot of the friendships.
[13:03]And I think that's when they started to come alive on the page a little bit more.
[13:07]I personally, I always think it's suspect when you have a character who has no friends
[13:12]in a book because that's, it's first off not my experience.
[13:16]It's not Christine's experience in real life.
[13:17]I don't think it often reflects real life.
[13:19]And if it does, then that person is obviously questionable, right?
[13:23]And so it was important to both of us.
[13:25]And that's why I was not in my head.
[13:26]I'm like, yes, we wanted this.
[13:27]But it definitely didn't start out with this is this person's person.
[13:31]And in fact, early on in the marriage narrative between Simone and Alex,
[13:37]I think they had less outside support and less outside confidence.
[13:41]And I think that made it even harder to break through the barrier of a marriage.
[13:47]I think that we often put really big walls around our marriage or our very close partnerships
[13:53]and relationships because we don't want other people to judge us.
[13:57]Unfortunately, it's like, you know, we don't want to tell them this terrible thing
[14:00]about our spouse or this terrible thing that we're thinking about our own relationship
[14:03]because we're worried that might come back and bite us in the butt.
[14:06]But we really, we pushed a little bit harder to have these friends try to be more
[14:11]of a sounding board to break through, to break into the marriage, at least by the end of the book.
[14:16]That makes sense.
[14:17]I love that.
[14:18]You have this one quote, do you mind if I read it?
[14:21]Go for it.
[14:21]We love what other people read.
[14:23]It's so rare that you have somebody else reading your words back to you.
[14:28]It's not that long.
[14:29]So don't get your hopes up.
[14:32]This is back with the mother scene, which I like loved.
[14:36]The mom says, here's another thing, Simone.
[14:38]Oftentimes the problem is not that you don't know what to do in a situation.
[14:42]The problem is that you do and you just don't want to do it.
[14:46]That's a different ball game.
[14:48]I love that.
[14:50]And I think that's that is such a reality, right?
[14:57]I mean, the people go to therapy for years and years.
[15:00]years and years and years, right? And I was reading, I think it was on sub stack. But it was like
[15:04]10 things, you know, your therapist wants to tell you, but can't, right? And one of them was like,
[15:10]you're stuck. Like, you know what to do. You just don't want to do it. Right? You come here
[15:13]week after week after week and say the same thing instead of actually making the change because
[15:17]making the change is the hard part. Sometimes it's not the, the not knowing what to do or not
[15:23]can be a stage and can be hard, but the even harder part sometimes is knowing what to do
[15:29]and doing it, which is confessing the secret or leaving the marriage or coming clean about something
[15:35]or, right? Like, any number of things and our characters have all of these things, you know,
[15:41]admitting your feelings one way or another. And that can be really hard part following a dream
[15:47]even. I mean, that's a big one in our story, right? So they don't even have to be all negative,
[15:52]but sometimes it's just hard to make a move that's going to even benefit you because that can be
[15:58]scary. So we hope through the lens of these characters, people can maybe take a look at what they
[16:04]are showing away from doing or not doing. Well, you also have a lot of tragedies and then things
[16:13]that happen suddenly and then things that happen slowly, but both causing so much grief, whether you
[16:20]have, you know, a sister's drowning or a car accident or a poppies dementia, which you write about
[16:27]and we see it sort of over the course of the book, getting worse and worse. And there are all these
[16:33]very realistic moments where you're showing us, well, this is like, this is what happens at this
[16:38]stage of dementia. And why does he starting to smell a little bit? And like, what, you know, the
[16:43]things that maybe people don't talk about as much, but felt very authentic. Can you speak to that
[16:50]a little bit? Yeah. So I, one of my really good friends was experiencing dementia with her father
[16:57]for the past five years. He recently passed. And, you know, I, I've been watching her really,
[17:05]you know, her own mental health has declined as he's declined. And, you know, watching her go
[17:11]through these various stages. I don't, I don't know if that's a thing that we necessarily often
[17:17]see enough on the page. And we, we also wanted Poppy to be a very three-dimensional character.
[17:23]And much like we did with, we are not like them. We didn't want any of this to be black and white.
[17:28]We wanted there to be great areas. We want someone to love Poppy and care about Poppy. And,
[17:33]you know, want to take care of him. And at the same time, when she finds out that he may have
[17:41]done this terrible thing to have all of these different feelings all at once. I think it's often
[17:47]too easy to write a completely hateable character. And it's a lot harder to write someone that's
[17:54]a little more nuanced. Do you think Simone and Alex should have gotten married? Should anyone have
[18:00]gotten married? I say, as my children scream and and yell down. There's a little man. I'm like,
[18:06]put them away to my sweet, sweet husband. I don't know because they ended up with a wonderful
[18:12]son, right? And Simone ended up with a lot of things that she did love. I personally don't think
[18:18]anyone should get married until they're 35. So you can like live a life in the world and be a fully
[18:24]formed human being with a fully formed frontal lobe. But I think that's for the reader to side. I
[18:29]think it's a good club conversation for people to chew on. I do too. And I think what we were trying
[18:34]to do is also show all of the reasons why they ended up getting married, right? There are like
[18:41]like when two people come together, there's that moment, but there's everything that preceded
[18:45]that moment, right? And that that always comes up, whether you're together for a year or 10 years
[18:51]or 50 years, you you are the son of that foundation, right? And so I think that was more
[18:59]the question, right? Why are these why do these two people come together? And why did they stay
[19:06]together? And should they stay together? And that's the case for I'm Simone in Alex, but of course
[19:14]one thing we've neglected to mention is that you know, Simone has this this romantic past with
[19:20]Plami, the journalist who really is still carrying a torch for her shall we say. And so that's
[19:28]also a big question in the book, right? Like, you know, sort of who who was meant for who and what
[19:33]happened there? And why why do some relationships take? And some do not. And you know, there's a
[19:40]lot than for readers to talk about. And I think that's also the benefit of having like two authors
[19:48]that we we really do think about kind of all of these conversations that readers we want readers
[19:56]to have when they read the book because they're conversations.
[20:00]that we've had, right?
[20:01]So I love that you asked that question
[20:03]because that's a fair question.
[20:04]Like we want readers to ask.
[20:06]I'm just like when readers still ask us like,
[20:09]a Riley and Jen, still friends,
[20:11]all these years later,
[20:14]somewhere in the fictional universe.
[20:16]And that is another good question to mull over.
[20:20]I think they're friends.
[20:22]I think they're still friends.
[20:23]All of our characters from all of our books,
[20:26]live retry in my head all the time.
[20:27]And it is getting freaking crowded in there, y'all.
[20:30]It really is.
[20:31]But no, in my mind, they are still,
[20:33]I think they're actually closer than ever.
[20:35]But we do have a, we are not like them.
[20:37]Easter egg in this book,
[20:39]which just brought me so much joy.
[20:42]Yeah, it's really fun.
[20:44]Kwame's, like the sexual tension,
[20:47]the crackle and sizzle of that is very tangible in the book.
[20:51]And he comes across as just like,
[20:53]very attractive.
[20:55]Like he's obviously very, he has a face.
[21:00]Yes, in my head.
[21:02]So wait, because I almost called you Simone.
[21:04]Oh my God, Christine, who do you picture him being?
[21:08]I don't know, you know what's so funny, universally hot.
[21:12]But he's like, changed in my mind a little bit over time.
[21:17]His hotness for you are just like his type of practice.
[21:21]Yeah.
[21:22]Okay, so I just watched the new trailer
[21:25]for the new Thomas Crown affair, obviously,
[21:28]because I love a heist.
[21:29]And Michael B. Jordan and Thomas Crown affair.
[21:33]I just like, he had like real Kwame vibes for to me.
[21:36]I could definitely see that.
[21:37]I think it all get down with Michael B. Jordan being Kwame
[21:41]in the movie version of this.
[21:43]Interesting.
[21:44]I can, I can, I like that.
[21:46]And I love it too, cause Kwame,
[21:47]I mean, he's a really fully formed, yes, very hot person.
[21:51]But he also represents this idea of the one who got away.
[21:57]I mean, I think that is such a universal thing
[21:59]when you get to a certain point in life,
[22:01]or when you get to a certain crossroads or hard moment,
[22:06]you start questioning all your choices, right?
[22:08]Like, should it have been this person?
[22:10]Should I have taken this job?
[22:11]Should I move to this place, whatever it is?
[22:14]And you know, Kwame really represents that for Simone,
[22:19]kind of metaphorically, but also very much physically
[22:22]in her presence right in front of her.
[22:24]Like when that path that you didn't take materializes
[22:28]in front of you in a high six, three smart, accomplished man?
[22:34]Well, you know, you, you've got a lot to think about.
[22:38]The other, you know, path not taken is a fortuitous one
[22:42]in a way because his closest friend growing up,
[22:45]Devon, the same step in, right?
[22:48]Devon ended up going to prison.
[22:50]And finally is let out and moves in with him
[22:54]and has like night terrors as a result.
[22:57]And we get to see what happens with him as a result of this
[23:00]and sort of embodies, you know, what happens
[23:03]when people are wrongfully accused
[23:05]and the effects of justice system and all that.
[23:07]And this is just like one of your side characters.
[23:11]We pack a lot in, baby.
[23:12]We pack a lot in.
[23:13]You really do.
[23:14]I mean, it's impressive.
[23:16]What were you trying to show with their relationship
[23:18]and with that plot line?
[23:21]The same idea.
[23:22]I think the sliding doors is really, really,
[23:26]is such a, a through line and a layer to all the characters
[23:31]stories.
[23:32]But, you know, Joe and I love a book that asks what if
[23:35]and that is a question that Kwame has asked in the,
[23:39]you know, the fictional version of a slide,
[23:41]like what if that were me?
[23:42]What if we switched places?
[23:44]There's a lot of, you know, there by the grace, right?
[23:47]situations involving luck, fate, timing,
[23:50]and his whole passion for this story
[23:55]that he starts to explore that connects with Simone
[23:58]really comes from this genuine pursuit of wanting
[24:03]to try to make wrongs right, right?
[24:07]Like try to have this sense of truth and justice,
[24:12]which is, you know, a noble pursuit of any journalist
[24:17]who's portrayed and drives him,
[24:18]but is in a lot of ways very personal
[24:21]because he saw the ramifications, right?
[24:25]Up front in a deeply intimate way of what happens,
[24:30]you know, when, when that's not the case.
[24:33]And so, you know, to see his really personal drive
[24:37]and motivations, you know, I, I think in hope is,
[24:40]is meaningful, you know, to the reader.
[24:43]Well, we didn't even get a chance to touch on the whole
[24:45]boarding school elite world of it all,
[24:48]the impact of being like one of the first people of color
[24:51]in an institution like this and the janitor.
[24:54]I mean, there's so much else there,
[24:56]but you also have a character who works at her,
[25:00]family's diner called Doughboys. And I'm just wondering if you had your dream order of a diner
[25:06]meal or snack or dessert, what would your order be? Good question. All right, I want a vanilla
[25:12]root beer float with a apple crumble with Wisconsin apples. They're the best. So we did, we set
[25:20]this book in Wisconsin, right? And usually I set books in Philadelphia because it's the greatest city
[25:25]in the world, Gobirds. But we decided, we wanted to set it somewhere that we knew so that we
[25:31]could write it well in my husband's from Wisconsin. He's from Milwaukee. And so we spent a lot of time
[25:36]there. And they have the best apples in the fall. So we're like a really great apple,
[25:41]from apple peach crumble. And a vanilla root beer shake and a patty melt. Wow.
[25:48]See if you have given it some thought, did you sneaker this question ahead of time?
[25:53]It is not. It's very specific. I just like food. I just like food.
[26:01]Hi. Okay. So I'm a lot more basic in my diner order. I love a classic diner breakfast.
[26:07]Give me some scrambled eggs, some really crispy bacon and a couple of delicious pieces of toast.
[26:13]Add some crispy home fries and I'm so happy, so happy. Well, congratulations. This obviously
[26:21]this is great for book clubs. Obviously there is so much in here. And yet it doesn't feel
[26:26]heavy or packed. The pros really flies. You can read it and not that long. The pages keep turning.
[26:34]I'm not saying that right. But you know what I mean? It's a quick read, but there's so much in it.
[26:38]And so much that you think about long after you put the book down because there are some really
[26:44]heavy, interesting questions to think about. And I'm sure everyone reading this book has
[26:48]something in their past that keeps bobbling up to the top and you wonder what to do with. And
[26:53]this book might just make some of those come to light. And wouldn't that be interesting?
[26:58]We would love that. And we want to hear about it in people's book clubs too. So
[27:03]invite us for all the dish. Now this was really great. This is so fun to do our first interview,
[27:08]actually, about it. We got back up to stuff.
[27:13]Yeah. Yeah. I just think you are just real trained you up for them. Let's come.
[27:20]Now I know to get my diner order ready.
[27:26]All right, congratulations. I never knew you at all.
[27:30]Bravo. Thanks so much, love. Okay. Thank you. Bye.
[27:34]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi. Formerly, mom's don't have time to read books.
[27:40]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens.
[27:46]And spread the word. Thanks so much. Go and buy the books.