Double Episode! Kate Hash & Kara Infante on The Power of Book Clubs, Reading, and Community
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy!
[0:25]Today, our episode is devoted to book clubs and book influencers,
[0:34]all the things related to the book world itself, conversations around books.
[0:39]I mean, doesn't that sound great?
[0:40]I love all that stuff.
[0:41]The first author I spoke to about this is Kate Hash.
[0:44]She wrote a book called The Mother-in-law Book Club.
[0:46]She also wrote Gracie Harris is under construction.
[0:49]She came on this podcast last year, talked about that book,
[0:52]which I absolutely adored, and this book follows suit.
[0:55]She also has a sub-stack newsletter called It's Been A Week.
[0:59]Born and raised in the Philadelphia suburbs,
[1:01]she spent most of her 20s bouncing around the world,
[1:03]including a stint in Florence, Italy.
[1:05]She currently lives in Chapel Hill, North Carolina,
[1:08]with her husband and two children.
[1:10]You will see why it's called The Mother-in-law Book Club
[1:12]and how books play a central role within the book.
[1:16]Then we're talking to Kara and Fante,
[1:18]who is the host of bookish flights.
[1:20]She was kind enough to have me on her bookish flights podcast,
[1:24]of which she is the creator and host.
[1:26]She believes we all have a story to tell
[1:28]and that stories can be told by the books that have shaped our lives.
[1:31]She is a passionate believer that books come into our lives
[1:34]when we need them the most,
[1:35]and they're a wonderful way to foster friendships and a community.
[1:38]I mean, do I say all that?
[1:40]Same we are like cut from the same cloth.
[1:42]Kara is also a physical therapist,
[1:44]turned podcaster and a military spouse
[1:46]who lives in San Diego, California
[1:48]with her husband and three children
[1:50]when she isn't reading or creating
[1:52]she'll be outside exploring or sharing a good meal with family
[1:55]and friends.
[1:55]These two amazing women, Kate and Kara,
[1:58]who by the way have to meet both address
[2:01]the different parts of what makes the book world so fantastic.
[2:04]And if you're listening, I bet you think it's pretty fantastic too.
[2:07]Enjoy. First up, we have Kate Hash, The Mother-in-law Book Club.
[2:10]Welcome, Kate.
[2:11]Thank you so much for coming back on totally book
[2:13]to talk about The Mother-in-law Book Club. Congratulations.
[2:17]Thank you. Thanks for having me back.
[2:19]Of course. I have to say,
[2:20]I read probably the first half of this on an airplane.
[2:23]Oh, yeah.
[2:24]And I tried to take a bunch of artsy photos of the window.
[2:27]So you will see my attempts at some point.
[2:29]But I loved sort of being on a plane
[2:32]and the literally feeling like I was where the book kicks off.
[2:36]So why don't you tell everybody what the book is about
[2:38]and the scene that I'm referring to?
[2:40]Sure. And thanks to that, it's literally my dream, by the way,
[2:42]that you like just described as having readers on planes,
[2:45]like taking photos with it, having people strike up
[2:48]on conversations when they see the plane on the cover.
[2:50]So thank you for that.
[2:52]So this book follows Andy Walker.
[2:54]She is a 30-something business consultant
[2:58]who is essentially running away from her real life
[3:01]in Boston, Massachusetts, down to Durham, North Carolina.
[3:04]She's a soon to be de-worsé,
[3:06]and everything is sort of falling apart.
[3:08]And on that flight from Boston down to Durham,
[3:12]she is sort of having the worst day
[3:15]and the worst month of the worst year of her life.
[3:17]And she eavesdrops on a conversation between two 70-something women
[3:21]who are just trashing their respective daughters-in-law.
[3:25]And Andy comes with her own baggage.
[3:27]And so something about this conversation
[3:29]that she hears breaks her.
[3:31]And she gets into a fight with these two women
[3:33]and just when things could go off the rails,
[3:37]one of the women offers her something very unexpected.
[3:40]And that's friendship.
[3:41]And we have this beautiful friendship
[3:43]that develops between Andy and Marilyn.
[3:45]And suddenly this city and the gig
[3:49]that was supposed to be temporary for her
[3:51]becomes something altogether different.
[3:53]And I think it's a book about friendship,
[3:56]like unexpected second chances
[3:58]and sort of how you have to wake up every morning
[4:00]and choose yourself and the life that you want to live.
[4:04]I love that.
[4:05]I also think it's an ode to found family
[4:07]because that's really, like finds her place there.
[4:10]And the way you describe,
[4:13]so eventually, not eventually, pretty soon,
[4:15]Andy finds her way into Marilyn's actual home
[4:18]and goes to her book club and gets to know her friends
[4:20]and her community and her family and all that.
[4:22]But you describe the home in such detail
[4:25]that it feels like we even know like the ages
[4:28]of the kids and the photos.
[4:29]I mean, I have like a full-on view
[4:31]of where I am situated in the story.
[4:34]And it gives Andy this sort of sense of rootedness
[4:38]when she has had her whole life rerouted, essentially.
[4:43]Yeah, and it feels like home to her in a way
[4:46]that early on in the book, she almost can't describe.
[4:48]Like I was very purposeful in providing a lot of description
[4:53]of that house because Andy is telling her story
[4:57]and she's just seeing so much and feeling so much
[4:59]in the...
[5:00]space and feeling at home. Even if in the beginning, she doesn't describe it that way. Like,
[5:04]you as a reader are watching her just feel a sense of like comfort and ease in Maryland space
[5:11]that is almost, it's strange the Andy. She's not used to feeling quite so comfortable.
[5:16]I feel like in a prior life, you were an interior designer or something because between,
[5:20]between Gracie Harris is under construction and the view that I can summon up just even thinking
[5:26]of the title of what that house looks like. And now this house, I'm like, where, what
[5:30]house are we going to in the next book? This will be great. I really love cozy homes. And I think
[5:36]that homes of all sizes can feel cozy too because I mean, Maryland is like a bougie lady,
[5:41]right? Her house is big and beautiful, but still it feels like home. And I think I just like the way
[5:48]homes set our lives and shapes so much of our lives and the way that they can shape that in
[5:54]stories as well too. So true. Well, another thing that this novel does so well, it's like a
[6:00]masterclass and empathy, right? Because what it kicks off with Andy being like, interrupting this
[6:08]conversation between two women who are bashing their daughter's law and her just being like,
[6:12]but you're not seeing it really from their point of view. Like, let me explain what you're
[6:16]missing. Let me guess. It's like the ultimate reframing. And it changes them in such a way that it
[6:22]changes the reader a little bit, too. And it makes you think, oh, wait a minute, look at what she's done,
[6:28]not just these two. And then of course it keeps going on and on because she gives everybody
[6:31]advice. It makes us think like, well, wait, could I be missing something in my interpretation of
[6:36]my own relationships? Absolutely. And that was something I really wanted to explore in this book.
[6:42]In part, because I think so much in popular media, we hear, you know, boomers hate millennials,
[6:48]millennials hate boomers, you know, Gen Z doesn't want to do this. We never hear about
[6:52]portrait X, right? And we're just sort of all meant to believe that we have nothing in common.
[6:58]We can't get along and we'll never understand each other. And what I really wanted to do with this
[7:02]book is bring out that empathy and that, wait, let me just pause and try to think about this from
[7:09]somebody else's perspective. And so when Andy's giving advice to the club initially, she just loves
[7:16]like giving the advice. And then she, it starts to change and she really starts to take their
[7:21]perspectives into the advice that she gives. And then eventually she doesn't want to get the
[7:25]advice. She just sort of wants to be there and take them in and then by the end of the book,
[7:30]she needs their advice. And just the way we all bring wisdom to a situation and trying to be
[7:37]as empathetic as possible when you're in a spot where you feel like you can understand why
[7:43]the other person has a certain opinion. There was one instance in particular that sort of tugged
[7:49]at my heart strength when Andy was trying to explain why asking someone to like stop, like asking
[7:56]a busy mom to stop what she's doing to take a mother-in-law to the airport for something. And even
[8:02]though it would only take an hour or two, why on a Saturday, why that would be so sort of criminal
[8:09]of an act and like how much like this particular mom would crave her a long time perhaps on a Saturday
[8:17]if she even got any and just how many responsibilities and that an hour from a life where there's
[8:24]no structure and that's the main thing of the day is so different from a life where 18,000 things
[8:30]happen per hour that to take that amount of time up is like an outrageous ask and even just like
[8:36]trying to square those two. But I keep thinking about the woman who's whole day was like the trip
[8:41]to the airport and I don't know it just made me really sad. I know it's writing some of those was so
[8:51]interesting and hard at times and I have this rule that I couldn't put because there's lots of
[8:56]advice and there's lots of scenarios and I couldn't put anything in the book that I hadn't heard
[9:02]about at least three times and Reddit could only count for one. There's so much gold to
[9:09]slide in Reddit when it comes to like in law stories but it could only count for one because I
[9:13]wanted the things that I brought in and the situations I talked about to feel relatable to people
[9:19]because I mean even a woman who is an 80 year old woman reads the book she's going to relate
[9:25]to Maryland but she's probably also had a mother-in-law at some point so she's also going to relate
[9:29]to Andy right and so the idea that depending on where you are in your life you might relate to both
[9:35]of these women and understand but yeah some of them writing some of them was heavy and just sort
[9:40]of unpacking some of the you know lived experiences that all of the women have had was also I think
[9:47]really heavy but also affirming because I want people to feel seen by the things that these
[9:54]women experience and go through. So when you're talking about sourcing in law stories was
[10:00]just in casual conversation with your friends over time and you stored it away or did you go on
[10:04]some sort of a research mission to find stories? Yes to everything. So it was, you know,
[10:11]collected over years from like lunches and branches with friends, certainly seeking things out
[10:17]on Reddit. And then of course like threads and Twitter when you start to engage with certain
[10:21]things, like sort of massaging my algorithm to bring me those sorts of stories. And then also
[10:27]I love the eavesdrop. And so I would just go, I love to write in a coffee shop, I love to write
[10:33]in busy places, but I also love to listen in those places. And there was one time zippy where I was
[10:39]probably editing about the second draft of this book. And I sat down in my favorite coffee shop
[10:44]and I came to you not to like elderly women sat cross with me at this really big table
[10:50]and just started talking about their sons. In this case they were complaining about their
[10:54]sons and I was like, this is so perfect. And I was just like taking notes as they talked
[10:59]because even just the way people move their bodies and the expressions they have when they have
[11:04]these conversations, it's just so fun to observe. I feel like you need to take this on the road
[11:10]and do a live series or you invite, you know, women in their in-laws to come to like hash,
[11:19]hash it out. I love that. You should use your last name too. Like, your name is Kate Hash,
[11:24]this is perfect. Like hashing it out, like hashing it out, make it a column. So I'm really
[11:30]excited. One of my book tour stops is at the villages in Florida. And I keep calling it like I'm
[11:34]going to mother-in-law headquarters. And I just can't wait to see what the dynamic of that event
[11:40]is like. But even online, like you could do a sub stack where I could anonymously send you
[11:47]like, here's my issue with my in-law. And then in-laws, because then here's my issue with my in-law.
[11:52]You know, I love this. It's so fun. Because everybody has their stuff, right? Even people who have
[12:01]amazing in-laws and I do have your stuff, right? It's just it's how it works. It's the nature of things.
[12:07]Well, I think after this, you have to become like the deer Abbey of the in-law relationship.
[12:12]There is nobody taking up that niche right now. So it's such a good idea. Look at you giving me
[12:17]marketing ideas here. I mean, it's not even working. It's just like really fun and useful. And
[12:22]yeah, you know, but I don't know. I think you just hit on something really, really important
[12:27]and helpful for people. Wait, tell me about your own in-law relationships. Because I can,
[12:31]because I know thinking the whole time. I was like, oh my gosh, I mean,
[12:35]I hope that she has a nice relationship. Because if not, it's ruined now.
[12:39]Well, it's so funny because with Gracie Harris' under construction, my novel, one of the jokes
[12:44]is that people kept saying, how did your husband feel that you killed him off in the book, right?
[12:47]Because people love to project, right? And so I just know this time around people are going to be like,
[12:52]what's your mother in all life? Right? Like they're going to be. But no, she's wonderful.
[12:57]I've been married for 17 years. So I've been married for a while. And so she has sort of seen
[13:02]both me and my husband grow out essentially. She's wonderful. She's hands off. She sort of just
[13:08]lets us live our lives. She's there for us if we need her. So she's great, which I think
[13:16]is potentially the only way someone could write this book is if you have a good mother-in-law,
[13:22]because otherwise to your point, it just becomes, oh, so you wrote all about about your mother-in-law.
[13:27]Yeah. Or you're smart enough not to say anything on a podcast about your mother-in-law.
[13:32]Either way. But it's really sweet. So I didn't realize until I was pretty deep into the first draft
[13:39]that I had named Marilyn and my mom's name is Mary and my mother-in-law's name is Carolyn.
[13:46]And I thought it was so sweet. I was like, okay, I think I did this subconsciously as like an homage to them.
[13:52]Oh my gosh. Also, you have the book club setting, which of course, for book lemurs is like
[13:57]Katnip and the power of what happens when women get together and discuss and often not the book,
[14:02]but whatever, what happens at these gatherings? Like sometimes I think long and hard about
[14:08]why these types of conversations that you have at the book club meetings that you have and the
[14:14]issues they talk about and book club in general, like what do you think the real power of those
[14:21]conversations is? Like can you articulate? Like what do we get when we connect deeply in these
[14:27]types of settings like you have in your book? So I think one of the big things, and I love this
[14:33]question by the way, is that so often book clubs happen in people's homes. And so there is an immediate
[14:41]comfort and a security that often comes from being in the home of a friend or an acquaintance,
[14:48]you feel secure in taking care of. So I actually think setting matters a lot in real life for
[14:52]book clubs. Book clubs also tend to be long running LA times ran the sweetest article earlier this
[15:00]about a book club where the youngest member is 70.
[15:03]I was so excited.
[15:04]It was Santa just like the mother-in-law book club.
[15:07]And that they had been meeting for decades, right?
[15:09]And there's just such an earned trust that happens over time.
[15:13]And I think what happens with a lot of book clubs
[15:15]is maybe for the first few months or even years,
[15:19]you're talking about the books,
[15:20]which is also bringing in a sense of vulnerability
[15:24]and openness, you're building all that trust.
[15:27]And then over time, the clubs
[15:29]sort of become social just as much as they're about the books,
[15:33]because you have developed all that trust
[15:36]and all that understanding.
[15:37]And learn different opinions.
[15:39]I think in a book club, we talked about empathy earlier.
[15:42]In a book club, you're inherently sitting down
[15:45]with a group of 10 people and half of you
[15:47]might love a book and half of you might hate it.
[15:50]I mean, what comes to mind for me is I did a virtual book club
[15:53]with my girlfriends who are literally all around the world
[15:56]when we already asked for a year,
[15:57]because we could not stop feeling things about this book.
[16:02]And some of us loved it, some of us hated it,
[16:06]but we all loved each other,
[16:08]and we were trying to understand each other.
[16:09]Like, how could you possibly like this
[16:11]or how could you not like this?
[16:12]And I think book clubs create a sense of it's okay to disagree.
[16:16]It's okay to have wildly different opinions,
[16:19]but we can also be together and experience life together.
[16:24]And I just think book clubs are magical in that way.
[16:26]I love that, it's so true,
[16:29]because then you just eat some brownies
[16:31]and you're on your way.
[16:32]And you have a drink, you have some wine.
[16:34]Yeah, not to the next book, for my gosh.
[16:37]There's also a whole nother through line of the story
[16:40]of what happens when a relationship doesn't work out
[16:43]the way you think it's going to
[16:45]and a sense of betrayal and what that does to your sense
[16:48]of self and what you're looking for in your own life.
[16:51]And sort of the reinvention required
[16:54]when sometimes a chapter ends not of your own doing
[16:56]or someone else's and how do you sort of square that
[16:59]and take care of yourself emotionally
[17:03]and romantically and all of that.
[17:04]Talk a little bit about Andy's quest
[17:08]and we won't give anything away,
[17:10]but even just the rawness of the outset
[17:14]of that mission is really coming out.
[17:16]Yeah, and I think Andy's history
[17:19]with her ex husband is really important
[17:23]because it sets the stage for why she is
[17:26]a little mistrustful or hesitant to open up.
[17:30]So she has given her ex second third chances, right?
[17:35]And I think that's a representation
[17:38]I wanted to bring into this book
[17:40]because I think I've seen that in real life.
[17:43]I've had girlfriends, I've had experiences
[17:46]where maybe you just keep giving people more chances
[17:48]than they deserve.
[17:50]And I think that breaks you in a certain way.
[17:52]And Andy is bringing all of that into this new experience
[17:57]which she doesn't have much expectation for
[18:00]when she gets on the plane.
[18:01]She thinks that I'm just going to another work gig,
[18:03]gonna be there for four months
[18:05]and then I'll fly home
[18:06]and things will have hopefully settled down.
[18:08]And in reality, she has sort of brought
[18:10]all that baggage with her on the plane
[18:13]and into these relationships that she's trying to form
[18:17]and a potential love story pops up in front of her.
[18:21]And she decides that it can't be serious
[18:24]and sort of formulates this whole belief
[18:27]that it just has to be temporary.
[18:29]This can't be the real thing.
[18:30]She's still so broken.
[18:32]And all those things are sort of kind of true,
[18:34]but not really and sort of how you deal
[18:37]with how Andy deals with complication
[18:39]because life is messy.
[18:41]And I think a lot of times in romantic comedies,
[18:44]there's not enough mess or the mess can be fantastical.
[18:48]And this to me with Andy and what she had gone through,
[18:51]I wanted it to feel real.
[18:53]And in fact, Andy has a big decision
[18:55]to make at one point in the book.
[18:57]And one early reviewer was like,
[19:00]Kate, I almost threw my book against the wall
[19:03]when she makes this big decision.
[19:06]But then that's life.
[19:08]Sometimes we go back to things that we shouldn't.
[19:12]And sometimes we make decisions
[19:13]and we then have to deal with the ramifications of that.
[19:17]But Andy is representative of things that I've seen
[19:19]in real life in a similar way as to what Gracie was.
[19:22]Gracie, I wanted her to be someone
[19:25]I could sit down and have brunch with
[19:26]and drink pomosas and gossip.
[19:28]And with Andy, I was like,
[19:29]this is a woman that I have met 100 times in an airport bar
[19:33]and we just shoot the shit talking about our jobs
[19:36]and our families and our kids.
[19:38]And then I don't see her again, but I'm like,
[19:40]oh, she was amazing.
[19:42]She was fantastic.
[19:43]And so just making those women feel real.
[19:46]What would a book love with you and Gracie and Andy look like?
[19:50]Oh my gosh.
[19:51]What would it look?
[19:52]That would be so fun.
[19:54]I really wish you could know your protagonist in real life.
[19:57]I know you probably feel this too, right?
[19:59]You can kind of just wish.
[20:00]one day you could hang out with them.
[20:02]I think we would read a lot of edgier picks.
[20:06]Oh, okay.
[20:06]And then we might like argue about them.
[20:09]And then, because I have a really wildly diverse,
[20:13]like, set of, like what I read.
[20:15]And I feel like Gracie is very much the reading
[20:19]contemporary romance.
[20:20]Andy is reading a lot of satire.
[20:23]And I'm sort of in the middle reading a bit of everything.
[20:26]But I feel like Andy would force a lot of satire on us
[20:29]and we'd have a lot of fun with it.
[20:30]And then, occasionally, Gracie would pop in and be like,
[20:32]guys, I need a book I can read in a day.
[20:36]I've got these kids.
[20:38]I need a book I can read quickly, and we would.
[20:40]I love that.
[20:41]Oh, gosh.
[20:42]So do you have a new protagonist in mind?
[20:44]Is there another book in the works?
[20:46]Oh, my goodness.
[20:47]So yes.
[20:48]So this is kind of like a two-part answer.
[20:50]So earlier this year, I wrote an entire other novel
[20:55]that I'd love.
[20:56]It's historical fiction, meets magical realism.
[21:00]I just love it so much.
[21:01]But it's not quite the right next book for me.
[21:05]It's a bit of a departure from romance economy.
[21:07]So I'm chipping away at that slowly and editing it.
[21:10]But my primary focus right now is I'm
[21:12]writing another romantic comedy.
[21:15]I'm so excited about the concept.
[21:17]I don't have a name for the protagonist yet.
[21:19]I have, in the manuscript, I'm about 20,000 words in.
[21:24]I have a name, but I'm not sure it's kind of sick.
[21:26]But it's about a woman who wins the lottery
[21:28]and has the opportunity to essentially
[21:30]hit the reset button on her life.
[21:32]And what she does with that opportunity,
[21:35]who she meets, and sort of how she changes the world
[21:38]in her own small way.
[21:40]Well, bad.
[21:41]Very good.
[21:42]Well, I mean, I feel like if you really
[21:44]wanted to write that other book, even if it's not
[21:46]the same genre, you should go from trying to go less.
[21:49]I mean, I've got it is written.
[21:51]I'm chipping away at the edits.
[21:53]And I love the story.
[21:54]And I think it will be out there eventually.
[21:59]I love it.
[22:00]You must write really quickly, because this came out.
[22:03]I mean, when did Gracie come out two years ago?
[22:06]Gracie came out last summer.
[22:09]Last summer.
[22:10]Oh my god.
[22:11]Even then, I write really fast or straps.
[22:15]I'm a really big fan of a messy, horrific first draft,
[22:19]because I then love to come back and craft the story.
[22:22]Yeah.
[22:23]But still, I mean, this is like the finished draft.
[22:26]But yeah, I know.
[22:28]I like writing so much.
[22:31]It brings me so much, George.
[22:32]You're like, just sit here in my office and write.
[22:34]And so it's just fun.
[22:36]And some stuff works and some stuff doesn't.
[22:40]But on the day to day, it's just fun for me.
[22:42]I feel like it clears my brain out.
[22:44]So are you going to write today after we do this conversation?
[22:47]I am.
[22:47]Yeah, I have a, I just broke down in my notebook before we
[22:50]started, and I want to write 1,000 words today.
[22:51]So we'll see.
[22:53]Do you already know in your head where it's going?
[22:55]Like, do you have a scene in mind?
[22:56]How do you do it?
[22:57]I do.
[22:58]So I love, so I'd written the first chapter.
[23:02]Obviously, some of the first chapters.
[23:03]But then I usually go to the middle of the book,
[23:06]because I love to write dialogue.
[23:08]And I feel like when I skip to the middle,
[23:09]and I write very specific scenes,
[23:12]it helps me get really in the zone for understanding
[23:14]how the beginning and end will actually
[23:16]connect to one another.
[23:18]A lot of people talk about the messy middle.
[23:20]I kind of like writing the messy middle,
[23:23]because that's for so much to me of the dialogue
[23:25]and enriching the story happens.
[23:28]And then maybe you realize that you don't even
[23:30]need the beginning.
[23:31]You just dive right in.
[23:32]Well, now I'm actually rethinking how the book starts.
[23:34]So it's fun that you say that.
[23:35]Oh, you know, I'm probably explaining too much here
[23:38]in the beginning.
[23:39]I can do this a little differently.
[23:41]So cool.
[23:42]Well, I can't wait to read the clip.
[23:44]OK, congratulations.
[23:46]What a great read it.
[23:47]What a great way to get these multi-generational book
[23:50]clubs in action, even just around this one book,
[23:53]and see what happens.
[23:54]I think these conversations in the wisdom of older people
[23:56]is so valuable.
[23:58]And as you mentioned, just doesn't get enough attention
[24:02]in the busyness of life.
[24:03]So it's a great reminder of that.
[24:06]And so much else, you packed a lot in here.
[24:08]So perfect thing to pack on your next plane trip
[24:12]if you'll get a lot out of it.
[24:15]Thanks so much.
[24:15]Thanks for having me.
[24:16]Of course, any time.
[24:18]Bye, Kate.
[24:19]Thank you so much.
[24:20]Thank you.
[24:21]Bye.
[24:21]Wasn't that so interesting?
[24:23]Isn't Kate just awesome?
[24:25]OK, and now we're going to talk to Cara and Fante
[24:28]Bookish Flights.
[24:29]Enjoy this one as well.
[24:31]Welcome, Cara.
[24:32]Thank you so much for coming on totally bugged.
[24:34]Welcome.
[24:35]Thank you so much, Debbie, for having me.
[24:37]It's a pleasure to be here.
[24:38]Well, I really enjoyed being on your podcast Bookish Flights.
[24:42]And I was dying to know more about you
[24:44]as a person, as a reader, as a mother, a wife.
[24:48]I know your military wife.
[24:49]You've moved all over the place.
[24:51]You have such an interesting backstory.
[24:53]And I just wanted to connect as one book lover
[24:56]to another book and also book podcaster.
[24:59]Yes.
[25:00]Cara tell everybody your back story. What was life like up until you started your podcast?
[25:07]Yeah, so we had just moved overseas. We were living in Sicily at the time and I was a new mom,
[25:14]but I also had to leave my job because I did not speak Italian well enough to go. I'm a physical
[25:19]therapist by trade so to go work in an Italian PT clinic. My Italian was not up to par to be able to do that.
[25:24]So I was a new mom and I was like, what do I do with my time? Right? I had an 18-month-old
[25:34]and you're alone. You've left your family. You've left everything you've known. You've left your
[25:39]job. And very quickly, I discovered my childhood love of reading again that I had left because I had
[25:46]gone to grad school and college and all the things where I was like, I can't leave your read
[25:50]because that's all I want to do and I will not study you. So that really reignited my love of reading
[25:56]again and I started using books to help me create friendships as we moved around because if you're
[26:02]not familiar with the military life, you can move everywhere from one to three years or moving
[26:06]constantly all over the world and you have to reinvent yourself and you have to find friendships
[26:11]every time you do that. And so I started taking a look at using book clubs to bring people together
[26:18]and find my family, my friend family. And I did that over the course of probably six, seven years
[26:26]and it was a great way to meet people because I think once you find book people you really have
[26:30]your aim, right? And you can go to these new meetings. You don't need to know anybody. You don't
[26:33]need to have awkward, small talk. You can just go and talk about the book that you're reading
[26:38]for book club. Like there's really low stakes to doing that. So we moved back to the US and the
[26:44]whole time under this guys, I was going to go back to the PT clinic while we moved back in June
[26:49]of 2020 and PT clinics were not open. So at that time then we had three children all under
[26:56]the age of five and my husband left on a seven month deployment and I was like, okay, again,
[27:02]back to what do you do with your time? You're isolated. We had moved to San Diego, California. I didn't
[27:07]know anybody. I'm from Chicago. So I have no family anywhere near here and people couldn't get here.
[27:12]And so for those seven months my husband was on deployment and I had a five, a two-year-old and three
[27:18]month olds. I just dreamt about what I could do when he came home. Oh my gosh. In all the free time
[27:25]you have in that but it was like that was the only thing that gave me mental sanity was
[27:30]what could I do when he comes back? And so I had been a podcast listener for a long time
[27:35]and a huge reader by that point because I had been six years of falling back in love with reading.
[27:40]And I was like, what have I started a podcast on books? And I didn't want it initially started
[27:46]of, well, I want to try other genres. I love reading widely but you go to the bookstores and you
[27:50]go to the fantasy section like there are so many books to choose from. I wouldn't have any idea
[27:54]where to start. So I thought, what if I start with I have a friend on the street that left fantasy?
[27:59]Let's interview her. Let's have her bring three books so you could try the fantasy genre.
[28:04]Think of it as like a wine flight of books. And three books seems like it was a very
[28:09]manageable amount of books to try and read for the listener. And so that's where the book flight
[28:15]became and that's what bookish flights came. Of course I did not start this when he was gone on the
[28:19]seven months deployment. I waited but it gave me seven months of planning and preparing and thinking
[28:24]about how I would do this. And dreaming, which was important. Wow. When did you start when you were a kid
[28:33]were you a big book lover? Were you always in the library? Like describe your kid reading life to me?
[28:38]Yes. I was always a reader as a child. I don't remember necessarily going, we had a library. I do
[28:44]remember that. But my cousin, she was all, we were both only children but we were two years apart
[28:50]and lived in the same town. So we were like sisters growing up but she hadn't. She had every book
[28:55]you could possibly imagine. Sweet Valley High, babysitter's Club. And we were just sitting in her room
[29:00]and we would read for hours. So we were both like voracious bookworms and we were doing almost
[29:04]like not really buddy reading because we weren't reading the same book but just sitting there
[29:07]reading side by side. And I just remember her having such an extensive book collection so it was
[29:12]like my library going to her house. So amazing. And then when you were overseas and rediscovered
[29:19]reading what types of books were you drawn to then? Yeah. I think about this because the Nightingale
[29:25]by Kristen Hannah has been a favorite book of mine since I read that and I think it was like probably
[29:31]2018. And I think what I loved about that is it's the first audiobook that I read and it made me
[29:39]feel something and it gave me the same sensation that I got from reading a physical book
[29:43]but I could do other things, right? Because now I'm a mom and we're busy and we're multi-tasking
[29:47]and it just opened the world of audiobooks for me. So there it was a, we actually had a great library
[29:54]on base. So we, I was able to get access to English language books because again,
[30:00]Oh, and town for books would might have been a bit of a challenge, but there was a great library on base as well.
[30:05]That's amazing.
[30:07]What did you say to yourself at the end of those long days with your kids seven months by yourself as effectively a single mom for seven months with the three kids at home?
[30:18]Like, how are you getting through those days?
[30:20]What did you say aside from dreaming about the podcast?
[30:23]Were you crying?
[30:24]Were you eating?
[30:25]Were you watching TV?
[30:26]Like, what was your?
[30:27]They're finally asleep, go to moment like.
[30:30]Yeah, that's not just falling in the bed because I was so tired.
[30:34]I think it was audiobooks that saved me because I remember I would hold my, of course my three month old head college too.
[30:41]So I would pace the hallways with him.
[30:44]And my other two, we always, they wanted someone to lay with them while they were in separate bedrooms and I'm one human.
[30:49]So I would pace between like holding my three month old and go between the rooms and I would have an audiobook in my ear because for me,
[30:56]I could do anything for a long period of time that I maybe didn't want to do that.
[31:00]I'm like, is this over yet?
[31:01]Like, are we sleeping?
[31:02]Because I had a book in my ear.
[31:04]And I don't remember, I mean, I'm sure I cried.
[31:07]I'm sure I did.
[31:09]I haven't gone to Italy at the time.
[31:11]There was really only Netflix as a streaming service.
[31:14]And you know, it's like when you only have one streaming service, you just kind of get tired of the shows.
[31:18]I really stopped watching TV and I just dove into books.
[31:23]And so when we came back to living in California, I, I really didn't watch TV at all.
[31:28]So I think it was audio books that really got me through those moments.
[31:32]By the way, have you read Rachel Beanlin's book, The Half Life?
[31:35]No.
[31:36]You have to read it because it's about a woman, a military wife who goes somewhere.
[31:41]It's off the coast of Italy and finds herself.
[31:45]Oh, it's really, you like to do like it.
[31:47]All right.
[31:48]Adding some of us up here, Ali.
[31:50]I think so.
[31:51]Okay.
[31:52]So then you decided you planned and you said, I'm going to launch bookish flights.
[31:55]It's a great idea.
[31:56]What did you do next?
[31:57]How did you research?
[31:58]How did you start the podcast?
[31:59]Yeah.
[32:00]So I had a friend.
[32:01]She was a fellow.
[32:02]She wasn't a military sponsor.
[32:04]Her husband was a contractor of the military though.
[32:06]So we had been living overseas together.
[32:08]And so she was also a stay at home mom.
[32:10]And her background was in business.
[32:12]So she was like, well, let's get to a business plan.
[32:14]And I was, when you go to PT school, you get none of this.
[32:17]You just learn how to fix humans.
[32:19]You don't learn anything about a business or technology.
[32:21]I'm like, I used to work on humans.
[32:23]So it really was an uphill battle of learning the technology,
[32:27]getting my business plan in place, purpose, mission, writing my intro.
[32:32]And like any good parent story, while my husband was the opposite same deployment,
[32:38]he wasn't around.
[32:39]I was by myself.
[32:40]And I drove to Arizona, my aunt Snowbird's there.
[32:43]And my mom flew my grandma out.
[32:45]And we met there.
[32:47]And my mom and I were going to stay in Airbnb.
[32:50]And my grandma was going to stay with my aunt.
[32:52]And we get there.
[32:53]And we get the stomach on vacation.
[32:56]So like any good parenting story, you get stuck in a bathroom for two days in a place
[33:00]that is not your home.
[33:01]Thankfully, I had my mom.
[33:03]So when one kid would get sick, she'd send them into the bathroom with me.
[33:05]And then I'd send the one that wasn't sick anymore out.
[33:08]And so I had two days that I spent in a bathroom at an Airbnb.
[33:11]And that was when I made my website.
[33:13]And just really love your town.
[33:15]Oh my gosh.
[33:16]And it's just not where I thought that story was going.
[33:19]But okay.
[33:20]Because it was just two hours of time that like, what else do you do?
[33:24]So I'm just and watched a ton of YouTube videos to teach myself how to even start a Squarespace website.
[33:29]I didn't have any idea, but really got the nuts and bolts figured out of the podcast.
[33:35]By the way, on your website, I really like how you made a Spotify playlist of the shows that you were on.
[33:41]And I was thinking, I should do that myself.
[33:43]What a good idea.
[33:44]I was listening to the shows you were on and then I learned about new shows and learned about you.
[33:48]So that was very cool.
[33:49]I think I'll try to put that together.
[33:51]I can't.
[33:52]I have borrowed that from another podcaster that I know because, but also as you know, you kind of forget where you've been over the years.
[33:58]And so it's a great way for me just to remember.
[34:00]Of that.
[34:01]So good.
[34:02]Okay.
[34:03]How many episodes have you done?
[34:04]Do you know of bookish flights at this time?
[34:06]Yeah.
[34:07]Well, I just edited 240, but that's next week.
[34:09]Wow.
[34:10]So 239 came out this week.
[34:11]Oh my gosh.
[34:12]Amazing.
[34:13]139 episodes of bookish flights.
[34:15]What were some of the surprising genres that people picked or what are some of the most common?
[34:21]Oh, okay.
[34:22]So I tend to lead towards historical fiction.
[34:26]That is my go to genre.
[34:28]So when I am booking guests, I usually read the book of the guests that come on the show.
[34:33]I don't always read the book flight because Lord knows I don't have time to read four books for one episode.
[34:38]So I try to not be so heavy-handed with the historical fiction because it's what I love and what I want to read.
[34:45]But also memoir, I would say is pretty popular.
[34:47]The least genres are probably more fantasy and romantic.
[34:51]And that's solely because there's just their big series, right?
[34:56]Their big books, their big series.
[34:58]And if I can catch you one.
[35:00]that's the first novel in the series that probably works okay,
[35:04]but I'm like, I don't want to interview for you
[35:06]for the third one, and then my guests are like,
[35:08]why haven't read one in two?
[35:09]So, you know, I would say it's, I don't know.
[35:12]It's definitely a fair mix of literary fiction,
[35:15]contemporary historical fiction, memoir,
[35:20]are probably the biggest genres on the show.
[35:23]And who was a guest that you were like,
[35:24]oh my gosh, I cannot believe this person's coming out
[35:27]if I guessed.
[35:27]Kristin Hannah.
[35:28]Oh, amazing.
[35:31]She, and then I had Kate do Camillo on the summer,
[35:34]which was amazing because I have read most
[35:36]of all of her books with my kids as read aloud.
[35:39]Read aloud, so exciting.
[35:41]Is there a dream guest you still would like to have on?
[35:43]Oh, that's a good question.
[35:44]You know, I have a note on my phone
[35:46]that I will go here and there,
[35:47]and I will add these dream guests
[35:49]because I think it's important to still dream
[35:50]no matter where you are in the process.
[35:53]I haven't updated it in a while though.
[35:56]That's a great question.
[35:58]Who would be, I feel like I've done some,
[36:01]like it was, once for me that I have loved all
[36:04]of their books, maybe Catherine Center.
[36:06]Let's go with that.
[36:07]Oh yeah, she's great.
[36:08]Yeah, that's so fun.
[36:09]That's awesome, love that.
[36:11]So if you could turn around and be the guest
[36:15]on your own show, what would your bookish flight
[36:18]of three books be?
[36:19]Yeah, I'm kind of cheating here
[36:21]because I actually made my husband interview me one time.
[36:24]Because I'm like, I want to see what it's like
[36:25]to be on the other end of the mic.
[36:26]And so I, my book flight was not your average grandma's
[36:31]because I love older protagonists
[36:33]that show what, how we can age
[36:37]and make me strive to want to age like that.
[36:40]So my first book was grandma gatewoods walk,
[36:44]which I'm like blanking on the author's name right now
[36:48]and I don't wanna miss speak what it's called
[36:49]grandma gatewoods walk and essentially she walked
[36:52]the Appalachian Trail at 67 in the 50s.
[36:57]And the Appalachian Trail was in heavy disrepair
[37:00]at that point because no one was really doing it anymore.
[37:02]And her story became so sensationalized
[37:05]because like this grandma of 67,
[37:07]I think she was a mom of like five children.
[37:09]She left her, her abusive husband
[37:11]and just decided to do something for herself one day
[37:14]and went, like she stitched her knapsack
[37:17]and went and hyped the Appalachian Trail.
[37:19]And it brought so much coverage to the trail
[37:21]and actually they quote her as saving the Appalachian Trail
[37:24]because it brought people's interest back
[37:27]and so then they started maintaining the trail
[37:28]but she did it twice, not only once she did it twice.
[37:31]And like you think about how much preparation goes
[37:33]into that today.
[37:35]And she just did it with like the knapsack,
[37:37]she stitched her back and probably no special shoes
[37:39]and nothing.
[37:40]And just had her son drop her off in Georgia
[37:42]and she hiked all the way to Maine on the,
[37:46]are you a hiker?
[37:47]I am, I am, I mean definitely pre-kissed life
[37:50]my husband and I did a bunch of hiking.
[37:52]And it's now, we're starting to do a bit more
[37:55]now that our youngest is six and he can kind of hang
[37:57]for a little bit.
[37:59]So my other book I brought was a long way from Chicago
[38:02]by Richard Kevin, which is a YA novel
[38:05]but I will encourage all ages to read it
[38:08]because it's hilarious.
[38:09]It is about two grandkids that go visit their grandma
[38:12]on the south side of Chicago.
[38:14]And it's not just cause I'm from there
[38:15]that I love this book.
[38:17]But this grandma is like your spitfire in the town
[38:20]and I think it's set in like the 40s.
[38:23]But she is hilarious and she keeps the town on their toes
[38:26]and it's told from these grandkids
[38:28]going to visit their grandma every summer.
[38:31]And it's just, she's such a hoot.
[38:33]It is so fun.
[38:34]I want to be amazing.
[38:36]Her when I grew up, I'm trying,
[38:38]I don't know that I would choose Celine
[38:40]but Celine, she was like a crime fighting grandma
[38:44]and I feel like there's so many books that have come out.
[38:46]This was probably three or four years ago.
[38:48]I did this book flight
[38:49]but there's so many books that have come out, right?
[38:51]Like, Vero longs.
[38:53]Have you read Mad Maybell by Sally Hepworth?
[38:55]It's our book club pick.
[38:56]We're reading it in October,
[38:58]so I have not read it yet.
[38:59]Okay, perfect.
[39:00]Yes.
[39:01]I was gonna recommend that for you to say yes.
[39:03]Yeah, we picked it.
[39:04]It's our October book club pick
[39:05]cause I'm like, I've seen this right off my alley.
[39:08]And how do people join your book club?
[39:11]Yeah, so it is totally free.
[39:13]The great part about the book club
[39:15]is we read it together, but the author joins us
[39:17]and then we do a mini bookish flight interview
[39:19]but then we get book club after that
[39:21]where you can help me interview the author
[39:23]and you can meet them as well.
[39:25]Amazing.
[39:26]We do the same thing.
[39:27]We do, I mean, not with the bookish flight,
[39:28]but I do a, like a monthly Q&A with an author
[39:32]and invite the book club to come ask the questions.
[39:34]It's so fun, right?
[39:35]It is so fun.
[39:36]And I wanted that community piece of it.
[39:39]I feel like sometimes as podcasters,
[39:40]we feel like we're just speaking into the abyss, right?
[39:42]We don't quite know who's listening,
[39:44]we don't quite know who's turning in, tuning in.
[39:47]And I'm one of that piece where I could meet the listeners
[39:50]as well and it's been a really fun.
[39:53]This is like, we're go working on our second year of it
[39:56]right now and we have some regulars
[39:57]and so that's been really fun to get to know the listeners.
[40:00]as well, amazing.
[40:01]So great.
[40:03]If you were giving advice to someone
[40:04]who wants to start something
[40:06]is like you did your podcast,
[40:08]which I'm so impressed,
[40:09]that I just love watching
[40:11]how people build their businesses and brands and everything.
[40:14]Like what are some of the advice
[40:16]on to building a brand the way that you have?
[40:19]Because I had such a long incubation period
[40:22]of thinking about and dreaming about,
[40:24]I think that's important because then you know where,
[40:29]but when you're starting,
[40:30]of course you're still going to be learning
[40:32]once you're starting,
[40:33]but I think there's something to be said
[40:34]about taking the time to have things in place
[40:37]and thinking about where you want the show to go
[40:40]or what you want it to be.
[40:42]So spend some time doing that and be okay with that, right?
[40:45]It doesn't need to be done tomorrow.
[40:47]And I find people around you that have the skill set.
[40:52]Like I asked a lot of people for help on various things
[40:56]and I didn't know any podcasters in my life.
[40:59]So I couldn't ask a podcaster
[41:00]but I asked people about a website.
[41:03]I asked my friend that was in the business
[41:05]like back in the house type things.
[41:06]And so finding people in your community
[41:09]that can kind of help you with these pieces.
[41:11]And then my friend that's with the business background,
[41:14]she'll still challenge me a little bit
[41:16]of like, well, have you ever thought about doing this?
[41:17]And it's just so great to have a trusted source
[41:21]that you can go to.
[41:23]But YouTube was also my friend.
[41:24]I did a lot of learning on my own.
[41:26]But my advice would be go for it, try it.
[41:29]It doesn't always have to work.
[41:31]My favorite motto now that I kind of have
[41:33]my systems in place is better done than perfect.
[41:35]Like sometimes you just have to hit the publish button
[41:38]and get it out there.
[41:39]Cause you could admire yourself in indecision or like edits
[41:42]and all of this and just better than the perfect
[41:45]and you'll learn each time you do something.
[41:48]Love it.
[41:48]Kara, thank you so much for coming on totally bugged.
[41:51]Thank you for introducing me to lots of other buks
[41:54]to your show and other podcasts.
[41:57]And just love that you're elevating, reading,
[42:01]and the way that we all connect through stories
[42:03]because obviously that is a passion of mine
[42:05]and finding like-minded people doing this work
[42:08]is always just such a joy.
[42:10]So thank you.
[42:11]Thank you for coming on.
[42:12]Yes, thank you so much Libby.
[42:14]I was a huge admirer of your work
[42:16]and it was an honor to be here today.
[42:17]Thank you.
[42:19]I hope you enjoyed this double episode with Kate Hash,
[42:22]my mother-in-law book club, a novel and Kara,
[42:25]and Fante, the host of Bookish Flights.
[42:27]Now go out and be bookish yourself.
[42:30]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi,
[42:33]formerly momstone have time to read books.
[42:35]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[42:38]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[42:41]and spread the word.
[42:43]Thanks so much.
[42:44]Oh, and bye the books.