Erin Schlozman on Debunking the Aspiration to Be Perfect
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and that the story behind it. Enjoy!
[0:27]Aaron Schlossmann is the author of the myth of the perfect mom, from every
[0:31]day perfection to postpartum joy. Aaron is a licensed therapist,
[0:35]perinatal mental health specialist, speaker, and, as I said, the author
[0:39]of the myth of the perfect mom. With over a decade of experience, supporting
[0:43]parents through pregnancy postpartum and the often overlooked emotional
[0:47]realities of modern motherhood, Aaron has become a trusted voice, challenging
[0:51]the impossible standards placed on mothers today. Through her writing, speaking
[0:55]of her community, she combines research, clinical expertise, and honest storytelling
[0:59]to help parents replace perfectionism with self-compassion. Boy, do I need her
[1:03]help? Welcome, Aaron. Thank you so much for coming on To Totally Booked
[1:07]to talk about your back, the myth of the perfect mom, which I don't know, are we
[1:11]not perfect moms? Come on. It would be, it would be, it's a lovely
[1:17]ideal. It's a lovely idea. No, of course your whole book is about
[1:21]debunking this whole even aspiration to be perfect. And all of that made me feel much better
[1:26]on so many levels. So, thank you. By the way, I think we originally connected because of
[1:32]Suzie Blonsky, who is a frequent zippy verse, you know,
[1:37]person who comes on all our retreats and is just amazing and we've become friends
[1:40]over the years. And your friends with her niece, it sounds like. No, her niece is one of
[1:44]my, she's one of my college roommates. She's my best, one of my best, best friends.
[1:49]Yeah. Oh my gosh. So funny. And now you've written this book, you have this massive
[1:53]community of your own, you have your own podcast. I mean, you have, let's, let's back up a
[1:59]second. Okay. Why don't you tell listeners a little bit more about you and how you have
[2:04]founded, taken your own parenting experience and turned it into a thing that culminates in this book?
[2:10]Sure. Okay. So I am trained as a licensed therapist. And I was working with moms before I was a
[2:18]mom and I was working inpatient, not inpatient. I was working in that hospital on an addiction
[2:25]medicine team, rounding daily, meeting with patients who are admitted with some sort of substance
[2:30]use disorder. And one of the physicians that I was working with was particularly interested
[2:35]in working with moms who were struggling with substance use while they were pregnant.
[2:39]I got pregnant while I was on that team. And then a whole array of different things I experienced,
[2:46]postpartum anxiety myself. And I figured if I work in this health system and I'm having
[2:53]challenging time finding support, how is a mom who has no way of now getting health literacy supposed
[3:02]to find support if they need it, even just someone to talk to about what they're experiencing
[3:09]in the transition and to becoming a mom. So fast forward, I started private practice, particularly
[3:16]working with new moms. I would do home visits or like walk-and-talk sessions because I knew the
[3:22]challenges that had you getting out of the house with a newborn is nearly impossible to let alone
[3:27]if you have a two-year-old and a four-year-old and another kid. It's like I wasn't expecting
[3:34]moms with a new baby to be able to like reliably. I understood, I understood the challenges of
[3:40]getting to therapy. It's not the number one priority when you have a new baby. So I would go to
[3:45]to mom's houses and do sessions that way. We would go for walks, go sit in a park. I would sit
[3:51]in their house with them. And then I got pregnant with my daughter and COVID started at the same time.
[4:00]And so I ended up having a pre, our daughter was born eight weeks early in May of 2020.
[4:08]Could I just jump in and say that that whole section of the book where you talk about
[4:13]your daughter being born early, like all the nuts and bolts of that situation, the Nicki,
[4:19]like you're even just like not wanting to have to go in and the mucus. And then I'm like,
[4:24]oh my gosh, I'm literally reading about this woman's vagina and I've never met her before.
[4:29]I'm like, okay, all right, let's just start there. If you're gonna say it, say it, right?
[4:36]If it's gonna exist, let it like exist as it is. So I had her, she was in the Nicki firm
[4:44]month. She came home on oxygen. I obviously was not going to anybody's house. And this was in May
[4:51]before we didn't really know much. And we had a baby that was born super early and a two and a half
[4:58]year old. So we were being...
[5:00]really really careful and I was continuing to see clients virtually but then I also that's when I
[5:05]launched fourth well for now my name but it was forever fourth trimester wellness on Instagram because
[5:13]I was like just because everybody stuck at home doesn't mean that people don't need support
[5:18]and when I say this I mean it like I had no intentions of growing this to to what it was
[5:24]and what it is I just figured like if this can if this brings a few new clients if the
[5:29]supports moms that are you know out of the state I'm practicing in great like that's the goal
[5:35]I was going through myself I mean obviously I only knew my experience but I I understood the
[5:41]challenges of having small kids at that time now I can't even imagine I say to my husband all the
[5:47]time like can you imagine if we have like high schoolers during during COVID and you're all home
[5:53]the time and everyone's supposed to be learning and like how like I'm actually quite grateful that
[5:59]we had little kids and we we were able it wasn't a challenge it wasn't we were able to manage so
[6:08]that turned into that and then I I mean it's all kind of convoluted I always have created resources
[6:16]for my clients my therapy clients and I had a fourth trimester survival guide which was like a
[6:23]truncated but like in the first couple of months here's some support for you you know place for you
[6:30]to like I don't know if you've ever done therapy yourself but sometimes it's hard you can
[6:35]walk away and be like wait that was really meaningful for me but I don't remember anything that
[6:39]happened like I know that that meant something but I can't like the tangible piece is hard sometimes
[6:45]to carry out of the space especially when you're really like present in it so it was just
[6:51]it was just a workbook that I called like my cute little workbook and it got it on the hands of an
[6:56]editor and the editor was like hey this could be something um have you ever considered traditionally
[7:03]publishing and I was like I don't even know what that mean like what do you what are the words
[7:07]you're saying to me I have no idea I have no idea Emily I'm just a therapist living in Colorado like
[7:12]I don't even know what you're talking about and then I worked with my own therapist I'm just like
[7:17]the imposter syndrome of I'm not a writer I'm a therapist like I'm not a writer I'm not a writer
[7:23]and I mean she just continued to ask me over and over what makes a writer what makes a writer
[7:27]because in my mind he was like I don't have an MFA I don't have a degree in journalism I don't
[7:33]have a degree in all of these things but I do have a degree in sitting with hundreds of moms
[7:40]in the very very very early stages of motherhood and I continue to see patterns I continue to see
[7:48]patterns of like moms who had c-sections who felt the need to explain away why they had a c-section
[7:55]or a mom that was bottle feeding and overcome with guilt but didn't felt the need to explain away
[8:02]and I found myself as the therapist being like why are you like I don't like where does this come
[8:08]from where's what is this idea that you're supposed to be doing it a certain way that you're
[8:12]supposed to burn a certain way that you're not allowed to have ambitions outside of motherhood you
[8:18]know motherhood becomes an all-consuming experience but that doesn't mean we don't still exist
[8:26]and that doesn't mean our wants don't exist and our and our goals don't exist in our ambitions
[8:34]desire for relationships and all of those other things don't it doesn't go away and so I started
[8:40]reflecting on motherhood is more of an expansive experience than like a restrictive one like what if
[8:46]you can be a mom and fill in the blank and so I like took a lot of time to really hone in on what
[8:55]are like the ten most common things I was seeing in therapy and the history lover and me was like
[9:02]we gotta like figure out where this comes from and we've got to get rid of them so that
[9:07]moms can just have like an authentic like there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be a
[9:12]mom who you know is in a C-suite and there's nothing wrong with being a mom who like loves being
[9:18]a stay-at-home mom and like making lunches a joy of their morning it's not for me but that doesn't
[9:24]mean that there's anything wrong that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with that well
[9:30]I wish I mean I did have a good service to when I had
[9:35]but I wish that I had known you back then or had your book or all of that I mean my kids are
[9:39]a little older now but um I mean not that I don't still struggle I'm like yeah and I have
[9:44]post my anxiety when my oldest kids are 19 but maybe I mean you still could yes or maybe it's
[9:50]just the anxiety of life you know yeah I'm kidding I just having that he but it's fine
[9:54]it's all off oh totally yes preach yeah I know
[10:00]I don't know what I would do, I'm like every morning. I'm like, thank you. Thank you.
[10:07]I get messages from moms all the time and they're like, how did you do it? And I was like,
[10:11]whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. I said that on a panel once and everybody was like,
[10:16]cracking up that was like, is this too personal? Maybe this is too personal. I don't know.
[10:21]I mean, that's like, if it's grounding or helpful for it for anybody, then it's worth,
[10:27]I mean, I don't know. I'm an open book. So like, if you want to know, I'll tell you, you know,
[10:33]I think especially especially with this demographic that I work with, it's like transparency is so
[10:39]important because there's so much gatekeeping. And I think in both worlds, both in publishing
[10:45]and in parenthood, there's a lot of gatekeeping and people aren't necessarily always honest about
[10:50]what their experiences are or they reflect on it. And I think this is just like the beauty of
[10:56]the passage of time. We reflect on it differently than we experience it in the moment and
[11:02]just creating space for that. I think it's really important. Totally. Well, in your book,
[11:06]you go through all the different ways we don't have to be perfect or, you know, everything from
[11:10]our bodies to the gear we get to like, just like every little thing break it down for us,
[11:17]chapter by chapter of like, here's why. And you give us examples of other people's experiences
[11:22]that we feel like we get a glimpse into a bunch of your sessions. And then you give us little
[11:27]worksheets and quizzes and things like that, which are super useful and like the things to say
[11:33]to like make yourself feel better. And just like so many things. I was like, should I be photocopying
[11:39]these? And like sticking this one up on my bulletboard and like, how could I keep these? Like,
[11:44]you don't mind a little nuggets. You little nuggets. How did you decide after you realized it
[11:50]was a book and that you were going try to publish it and all that? How did you decide how to
[11:55]structure it, which stories, which clients? Are they okay with it? I know it's sort of a thing.
[12:00]Yes. This all of this goes, all of that credit. The organizational pieces go to my editor, Laura
[12:08]Apperson, who I would literally follow to the ends of the earth. And she helped me with the
[12:16]structure in terms of like, well, let's work through each piece. So first let's introduce the
[12:21]myth of the perfect mom. And then there's birth and then there's feeding. And then up until we get
[12:27]up until the point of like, am I going to return to work? Am I not going to return to work? And then
[12:31]the last chapter is really like, you're already doing no matter what choices you've made, you're
[12:36]already doing an amazing job. So she helped me structure the like the timeline of the book, if that
[12:42]makes sense, what chapter is going to cut? What's going to come where? And then I, I just thought
[12:48]it was really important that I, I thought it was important that I shared some of my experience because
[12:53]they think a lot of times people look at their therapist and they're like, are you going to real
[12:58]person or like, do you practice like, it's like seeing your teacher outside of school when you're
[13:03]like, this is really crazy. And then, you know, anecdotal client testimonials so that, I mean,
[13:10]you know, this isolation is such a huge issue for new moms, especially now in a more digital
[13:16]world. So that less alone, like, is really important to me. I wanted, I wanted readers to read it and
[13:23]feel like less alone. And then there's the history piece which I could have gone on. I mean,
[13:29]I could have gone on forever and ever and ever and ever about like, where do these things come from.
[13:34]And then I didn't even know what a prescriptive nonfiction book was to be totally honest because
[13:39]I'm a nonfiction reader, but I am not necessarily like a, I don't, I don't like rules. You know,
[13:47]like, I'm like, I'm gonna just do what I want and I'll figure it out. I jump first type, if you will.
[13:52]And she had suggested like, let's like, people process information in all different types of ways.
[13:59]So let's give them a takeaway that's not just words, but also ways that they can put into action,
[14:05]what has been meaningful for them in this area. And one of the things that I like about the way
[14:11]that the book is structured is if one chapter doesn't really apply to you, you don't, you can skip
[14:16]it and you're not. It's like, where you can just leave parts of it, you can, you can use it as you
[14:22]need it. So if there's someone listening today who is like, okay, but I get all this and thank you
[14:28]for writing this, but I still feel bad that I served my kid cereal for dinner last night, which I
[14:35]literally did to the farmer. My youngest son was like, mom, this is a low. We're like a low for who
[14:42]will over you or it was like, it was a family low. It was a, he's like, he's 11. He's like, I think I'm
[14:48]gonna cook dinner tomorrow night. This is like ridiculous. He's like, are you supposed to cooking in
[14:51]any way? But for the mom who's feeling like, yeah, okay, but I still feel terrible when I
[14:56]drop the ball or I make mistakes or I do this or that.
[15:00]and I know we don't have to be perfect, but oh my gosh, it's so hard.
[15:03]But I don't feel good. Yeah. Yeah. What do you say to that, mom?
[15:07]Yeah. So like, who may or may not be me?
[15:10]This is really challenging. I think especially, I wanted to talk to you about this because I was
[15:14]reading, as I was reading your book, I was like, I wonder like what her history with anxiety
[15:19]and people pleasing is. I think for a lot of us, people pleasing moms, myself included,
[15:25]I can feel guilty about anything at any point at any day. Like, oh, I didn't like,
[15:32]oh, I gave you this cheese instead of this cheese and you're going to open your lunch and
[15:36]you're going to be, but like, this is the human experience. Like, we're supposed to experience a
[15:41]range of emotions. That's just kind of how it goes. And when moms come to me and say, I'm dropping
[15:48]the ball. I try to reframe it as like, think about it as there's a plastic ball and there's a glass ball.
[15:54]And like, you can drop the plastic ones. It's fine. They'll bounce. Like, you can hold it
[16:01]for as long as you need it and like, go in and pick a backup. It'll probably just roll to a corner
[16:05]somewhere. So like, with, you know, there is a lot of pressure about the way we feed our,
[16:10]the way we feed our kids for starting an infant hood. And like, if you're doing, it's a plastic
[16:17]ball. Like, if you're doing your best, you know, or if that's all you have in you, like, you're
[16:21]busy working mom. If you, if that's all you have in you, like, and also maybe you're 11 year old,
[16:28]love, would love to learn how to cook or it does no how to cook. I don't know. So I think zooming out
[16:34]really helps, zooming out really helps. Like, you are providing a safe and loving home. And if sometimes
[16:42]chicken nuggets just happen, we're in one to week. Like, then they do. And what do you get? Like,
[16:47]that's okay. It's all okay. I mean, that's the point. Like, authenticity over perfection, I think.
[16:53]And do you feel like you're able to internalize your own advice when it comes to your own kids?
[17:00]Such a good question that I have not been asked since the book was published. I, it's funny,
[17:05]my own mom the other day, because I was a people pleaser forever and ever and ever,
[17:10]youngest child wanted to make sure everyone was okay here taking everybody around me. Not because
[17:15]I was told to you, it's just a role that I took on. And she said to me, my mom said to me,
[17:21]she's like, he's become so much more bold since you've become a mom. And I think I struggle with
[17:28]mom, go 100%. But the rest of it, I think, I'll back up because it's a complicated question.
[17:35]It's a good question. My husband is a really, really, really good dad. And a lot of the areas
[17:44]that I am not as strong in are the areas he's great in. Like, I'm not a great teacher. I'm
[17:51]more of a like, sometimes I swear in the pickup line. Like, what are you going to do? You know?
[17:57]And he in those like very hard moments where I, in my brain and my people pleasing in my social
[18:03]emotional training, like, I want to fix it. And he is really good at stepping in and using those
[18:12]moments as like teaching moments. He's a really good teacher. I'm also a very permissive parent.
[18:16]Like, I don't like, if you're not, if you're not hurting someone else, if you're not hurting
[18:21]yourself and like, you're being nice to people, the rest is like, mostly fine given. I have a
[18:27]six and eight year old. So we're not really at like, we're not really at like making life decisions
[18:32]that could change your life. But I think, yes, some of it for me is written out of aspiration. And
[18:38]some of it for me is written out of total truth as to what parenting has been for me. So I
[18:45]answer your question. That was so long winded. You know what? There's no right answer. It's your life.
[18:51]And I was just curious. So yes, I mean, yes, yeah. So there's piece of it that I still there's pieces
[18:57]that of it that I feel like I embody and there's pieces of it that I feel like I am that mom
[19:04]that experiences mom guilt. I am that mom that has experienced, you know, trying to think like
[19:11]for sure with the ambition piece, like I rejected the title of ambition for so long, even though
[19:18]I'm ambitious, like a person without, I think especially with women, we've branded ambition is a
[19:25]word that we don't get to own. And with women, it's a looked down upon quality. Like for a woman
[19:35]to be ambitious, she has to be this and of that and this and of that. But motherhood is literally
[19:40]the most ambitious thing anyone can do. Like you are devoting yourself to raising our future. And
[19:48]that's a really big job. So whether it's career or otherwise, just stepping into motherhood
[19:57]makes you ambitious. I love that.
[20:00]Do you consider yourself a writer now? Have you adopted the label? Are you with it?
[20:04]No, it's such a no and yes. I've rediscovered my love. I think I was surprised by how
[20:12]much I loved it. I love it. I mean, I loved it. I love writing. I have 17 word documents
[20:25]started of ideas that I have for another book, a next book. I love it. I don't know if I
[20:32]consider myself an author or just someone who loves writing. Is there a difference? I don't know.
[20:38]It's not really. It's all the same. You mentioned quickly before gaslighting and the publishing industry
[20:46]all of that. What did you mean by that? It was good that I was naive at the time that the book sold
[20:57]and it's also I'm glad now that I have the experience of like, see behind the curtain. So my
[21:03]book sold an auction at auction and didn't know what that meant at the time and I met with a bunch
[21:09]of editors and I talked to them and I didn't know. I didn't realize it was like speed dating.
[21:15]I had no idea. But in terms of the whole process, like, I think we don't talk about advances.
[21:23]We don't talk about expectations in terms of sales. We don't talk about like I recently,
[21:30]no one ever told me that like the average book sells in its lifespan, what like 400 copies.
[21:36]Like nobody, there's just a lot of information that's kept within the industry and also I've
[21:42]learned that a lot of it's very ever changing. Like people move positions and they move agencies
[21:50]and they move like it's constantly moving. So while you're trying to create your piece of art
[21:56]or imagination or whatever you want to call your book, truth, whatever it is, you may be talking
[22:03]to one person one day and then the next day, it's they're gone and it's someone else. And I don't
[22:10]think people I don't like the amount of times my agent said to me while I was writing like
[22:14]this seems like a big deal to you right now. But I promise this is an industry standard. I was like
[22:19]well, why aren't we? What? I like transparency. I'm like, why aren't we talking about this?
[22:25]But you started your own publishing company. You know this. It's just good to hear, you know,
[22:32]and you'll be entering the industry what they see. You know, I think yeah, it's like you need to
[22:37]write an industry standard reflection on publishing. But I'm sure it's one of your 17 tabs
[22:42]that are open on your computer. So one of the an editor who did not opt to participate in the book
[22:50]was like her feedback was postpartum moms don't read. And I think that that will
[22:56]inform the rest of my career forever and ever as a writer. Like I'm going to prove you wrong,
[23:02]moms love it. Perfect. Oh my gosh. So what advice would you have for aspiring authors?
[23:12]Even if they just write, just write, just write. Like yeah, I think that's it. Like you know,
[23:20]again, I'm not a trained author and I published a book that I'm proud of. And like I was in
[23:27]therapy for a year working through imposter syndrome. Like don't just write. If you have it in you
[23:33]and it needs to come out, the world deserves every voice. So well, maybe not every voice. The world
[23:40]deserves a lot of voices, a lot of diverse voices. So just do, just write, start. You got to start.
[23:48]I mean, it's so cliche, but like for most people, that's the hardest part is just jumping in.
[23:53]And so you I think just do it and see what happens and come back to it and leave it and come back
[24:00]to it later and see where you how you feel and where your feelings change, but then just keep
[24:06]doing it. And I know that social media makes things more complicated now because
[24:10]everyone wants to see an audience and or publishing houses want to see an audience and they want
[24:15]to know that you can market and that you can sell and you can do all of these things. But I don't
[24:21]anyone should write with the goal of a six-figure deal. I think if it is in you and it needs to come
[24:28]out of you, write, write the thing. And then last, really quick, top tips for growing your
[24:34]Instagram to the huge numbers that you have. What is the top tip on that? How did you do that?
[24:40]Authenticity just to be yourself. Just be yourself. If you're like wool-ish, people will follow.
[24:47]If you are putting out XKI swear, if you're putting out a bunch of BS, bullshit,
[24:53]it's not going to resonate. Like we live in a world of attention spans this big. So just being as
[25:00]to your true self as you can. And yeah, that would be my number one piece of advice.
[25:06]Love that. Erin, thank you so much.
[25:09]That book is so useful. I'm going to be giving it as a new mom gift to have a new one.
[25:15]And thank you so much for sharing yourself and all of your hard-earned advice and
[25:21]experience and all of that. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I hope you have a great rest of
[25:25]your day. Thank you. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi,
[25:29]formerly momstone have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[25:34]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much.
[25:40]Oh, and buy the books.