Rebekah Lowin on Impossible Jewish Joy
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and that the story behind it. Enjoy!
[0:27]I really enjoyed getting to know Rebecca Loan because I just loved her book.
[0:31]There are food drippings all over it because I was going through it frantically trying
[0:36]to find some recipes for the high holidays. The high holidays are now over,
[0:40]but there are always holidays to celebrate and always ways to make the everyday
[0:44]moments in life a little bit more elevated. So this is a timeless book and
[0:48]a timeless episode, even though I'm a couple days late on the holidays.
[0:52]Rebecca Loan is like the Jewish Martha Stewart, basically.
[0:56]She makes everything just look amazing. Here's a little more about the book.
[1:00]Rebecca Loan and her. The Rebecca Loan is the author of a year of Jewish joy,
[1:04]inspired recipes, rituals, and traditions for beautiful celebrations.
[1:08]Rebecca is a writer and content creator known for her joyful design forward
[1:12]approach to Jewish holiday cooking, decor, craft projects, and storytelling.
[1:16]Her work has appeared across national media and in collaborations with everyone
[1:20]create and barrel to food network magazine. Her first book, a year of Jewish joy,
[1:24]is a colorful and creative guide celebrating the Jewish year filled with
[1:28]recipes, crafts, traditions, entertaining ideas, and plenty of inspiration for
[1:32]making every holiday a little more beautiful and fun. She's also a full-time editor at
[1:36]Forbes with previous editorial roles at Martha Stewart Living and Country Living.
[1:40]She currently lives in Connecticut with her two young children. We are delighted to be hosting
[1:44]her at Civvie's bookshop on Sunday, October 11th at 4 o'clock.
[1:48]Welcome Rebecca. Thank you so much for coming on totally back to talk about a
[1:52]year of Jewish joy, inspired recipes, rituals, and traditions for beautiful
[1:56]celebrations. Thanks. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.
[2:00]I have already spilled food apparently on this cover because it has been in my kitchen
[2:04]and we are using it and loving it and it's amazing. That's a great sign. I'm happy to hear that.
[2:10]And so great that we happen to be. I know this will come out later, but we
[2:14]happen to be recording in the period of time between Rosh Hashan and Yom Kippur.
[2:18]I mean, if you wanted like an A-plus moment to talk to you,
[2:22]it would be now. Yes. This is definitely a fact that was
[2:26]not about when we were thinking, when should we publish the book? Of course,
[2:30]Rosh Hashan was the perfect time. The book came out last week and it's been really
[2:34]exciting to see people take it into their kitchens, as you said, and actually
[2:38]get working with it. And one of my favorite chapters is the Breakfast
[2:42]Chapter. So, and so looking forward to seeing what people do this
[2:46]week with all the ideas. Throw it down the challenge.
[2:50]Throw it down. Yes. Well, why don't we back up a minute
[2:54]and why don't you explain the project and maybe we'll even back up
[2:58]even further so that people understand that we're basically talking to the
[3:01]Martha Stewart of Jewish holidays and food and everything else and
[3:06]decoration, not to mention like beautiful photography, by the way.
[3:10]And organization and everything, the way you have, oh my gosh,
[3:14]I'm like totally obsessed. Where did all of this start? You start the book
[3:18]with the most powerful explanation, your story with your grandmother.
[3:22]Why don't we start there and then go into how you became
[3:26]you and then why this month? Well, thank you. This is a great question.
[3:30]So, yes, I'll start with my grandmother. I think that's a great place to start.
[3:34]So, the introduction of the book, I chat about this phrase, impossible joy.
[3:38]It's something that my mother used to say about my grandmother when I was growing up
[3:42]and I loved that so much and it always stuck with me.
[3:46]The idea of my grandmother and also so many Jewish people having
[3:50]an impossible joy meaning they are setting the table and making
[3:56]beautiful dishes and having a great time and yet the backdrop is sometimes
[4:01]not so lovely or pretty. You know, Jewish joy is a package deal and sometimes
[4:06]it comes with not so good stuff alongside the good fun stuff.
[4:10]So, my grandmother was always my inspiration in that.
[4:14]She was someone that I looked to and thought, how does she do it?
[4:18]She was an Auschwitz survivor who then became a renowned opera singer and
[4:22]operatic professor and she was just the happiest person that I ever knew.
[4:26]So, when it came time to write this book, I actually wanted to call it impossible joy
[4:30]and my editor said, that will not sell. Well, so let's change that.
[4:34]But this phrase is very important to me. As I wrote the whole book,
[4:38]it was like the guiding principle was the joy of the Jewish people
[4:42]is almost impossible and yet.
[4:46]So, there is, and thank you for bringing up the introduction because I'm really proud
[4:50]that in this book there's a lot of essays than writing and philosophical
[4:54]explorations about Jewish joy as well as just the recipes and crafts.
[4:58]To get us back to the fun Martha stuff, I did actually work
[5:00]from Martha Stewart for several years.
[5:02]I keep name dropping her in this book journey.
[5:05]She probably doesn't know who I am,
[5:06]but is there and learned so much from her
[5:10]and from her amazing team.
[5:12]And, you know, I worked in her beautiful headquarters
[5:14]in New York City 15 years ago,
[5:17]wandering through the craft rooms and the test kitchens.
[5:20]And you can imagine it was just heaven for someone like me.
[5:23]It was very creative.
[5:24]I'm always baking crafting.
[5:26]But I started to think like,
[5:27]wouldn't it be amazing to apply the same lens
[5:30]to the Jewish holidays?
[5:32]And so I started a blog in 2019, all about this.
[5:35]And it took off and was very lucky
[5:38]to hear from a literary agent
[5:40]and move into the book world quickly in 2021.
[5:44]And I've been working on it ever since.
[5:45]So it's been like five years start to finish.
[5:48]It was a bit of an ambitious project
[5:49]because it's more than a cookbook.
[5:51]It's recipes, but also crafts, table ideas,
[5:55]all the Martha things.
[5:57]And while I'm not sure,
[5:58]I agree with the Jewish Martha Stewart thing.
[6:01]I find that it is a very helpful shorthand
[6:04]to explain to people what I'm trying to do.
[6:07]So I appreciate it in that sense,
[6:09]but I'm overly flattered by it.
[6:11]And then we've got the book out of all of that.
[6:15]And I'm so proud of it.
[6:16]It's amazing.
[6:17]Well, I have to say our business manager, Holly,
[6:20]is a huge fan of yours, like mega mega fan.
[6:23]So I just have to shout out Holly on this episode.
[6:25]That's amazing.
[6:26]I need to shout out Holly
[6:27]because I think I have like five mega fans down.
[6:30]And so thank you, Holly.
[6:32]I'm sure you have been one of the few more than five.
[6:35]Let's go back to the pros in the book too
[6:37]because you're quoting Jonathan Saffron
[6:40]for your really like talking about things
[6:43]that could be on their own very powerful memoir,
[6:47]literary critique, thoughts about holidays,
[6:49]thoughts about happiness.
[6:51]I mean, there's a lot if you just extracted that.
[6:54]Talk about the writing before we talk about
[6:56]the creating and the crafting and everything else.
[6:59]Well, I appreciate this question so much
[7:01]because if it's not already clear,
[7:03]I was so proud to write a book.
[7:07]I think getting a book deal for me.
[7:10]I was like, I need to milk this for all that it's worth.
[7:13]I will be writing the longest headnotes ever.
[7:16]That's the little paragraph that's above a recipe.
[7:18]I will be writing essays and my poor editor, Sarah,
[7:22]who I love her so much.
[7:24]I turned in the manuscript.
[7:25]It was like 100,000 words over the limit
[7:28]of what it was supposed to be.
[7:29]And she very politely turned it back to me
[7:31]and said, you're going to have to cut this.
[7:33]But we landed in a place that I think is so beautiful
[7:36]that really marries depth with the light.
[7:40]That was really important to me.
[7:42]And I guess there's so many reasons why I did it.
[7:45]First of all, I consider myself to be a writer
[7:47]before any other type of creative.
[7:50]And so I simply wanted to write this book
[7:53]and have fun with that.
[7:55]But I also think that it's impossible to do justice
[7:57]to any of these holidays without explaining what they are,
[8:01]talking about, well, why are you setting the table
[8:05]for this way for a Passover Seder?
[8:07]I had to explain it somehow.
[8:09]So it was either going to be a few little side bars
[8:11]or I could really dive in and write an essay.
[8:15]And once I write an essay, it tends to get sort of funny
[8:18]and like Rebecca voice and I ended up loving those,
[8:21]there's 12 essays in the book
[8:22]and I love them more than anything else.
[8:25]Like they're just, though they were so fun to do.
[8:28]So I do, and my number one hope with this book
[8:30]is that people actually read it.
[8:31]That would be so great.
[8:33]And I think that they will,
[8:34]because I think when you flip to a recipe
[8:36]and you start reading the head note,
[8:37]you understand like there's more sir,
[8:39]which might lead you further into the book universe.
[8:42]So that's that.
[8:42]And I will say, I'm actually still a magazine editor.
[8:45]I work at Forbes and have so much fun with that.
[8:48]I run like a lot of lifestyle content for them.
[8:50]And so I am really first and foremost a writer.
[8:53]So it's also especially thrilling to be on a podcast like this
[8:57]and to have conversations with other writers
[9:00]and other authors rather than just to, you know,
[9:03]like go to a JCC and do a cooking demo,
[9:05]which I'm so excited to do.
[9:06]But alongside each of the demos,
[9:08]I'll be doing this fall.
[9:09]I'm going to also talk about the book process and the essays.
[9:12]And that's just really important to me.
[9:14]I think that having that depth matters,
[9:17]no matter what kind of book it is.
[9:19]Maybe you should write a second book that is not illustrated
[9:22]and not recipes, but just a book book.
[9:26]I'm thinking about it.
[9:27]I think I'll take a little breather and see my children
[9:31]who I've left behind in this process.
[9:33]I have a one-year-old, one-year-old and a three-year-old.
[9:35]And I'll see them for a little.
[9:37]And then I might just jump back on the book project bandwagon
[9:39]because as you know, it's very addictive.
[9:43]That's when you get started.
[9:45]Well, maybe we should have a phone call after this about,
[9:48]you know, publishing everything else.
[9:50]And it sounds like you have a lot of really interesting
[9:53]unique stories to tell.
[9:54]And this is just scratching the surface in this book.
[9:57]Thank you.
[9:57]And I think anyone who gets this book, and I'm sure...
[10:00]a lot of people will get it as gifts,
[10:01]a year of Jewish joy is like just perfect gift and everything.
[10:04]But it's the kind of thing where you open it
[10:07]and you're like, oh, wait, let me settle in here
[10:10]because there is stuff to read.
[10:11]This is not just a flip through,
[10:13]which is fine to have a flip through.
[10:14]I love those, you know, those cookbooks
[10:16]are beautiful and inspirational,
[10:17]but this is much, much more.
[10:19]So thank you.
[10:20]Yep, settle in.
[10:20]Two for one in a way.
[10:23]I like to think that.
[10:24]Thank you for seeing that.
[10:25]Yeah.
[10:26]Tell me about your relationship to being Jewish.
[10:29]Like what was your Jewish life growing up?
[10:31]What is it like to know?
[10:33]I know you talk a lot about it in the story,
[10:34]but tell everybody about it.
[10:36]Okay, yeah, you know, growing up, I grew up in Connecticut
[10:38]and we just did not have a Jewish community.
[10:42]I don't even know how to describe it.
[10:43]Like we couldn't even make a minion on Friday nights.
[10:46]Yet within my home, the Jewishness was like
[10:49]of the utmost importance.
[10:51]My father spoke Yiddish.
[10:53]He came from a very observant background.
[10:55]My mother from a more reformed background,
[10:57]but again, her mother was an Auschwitz survivor.
[10:59]So, you know, God and Jewishness was still a huge part
[11:03]of her life and one of all she thought about.
[11:07]So Jewishness became something that we practiced at home
[11:11]and that we did within the walls of our home
[11:12]and everything from Shabbat to Hanukkah and beyond.
[11:16]It was, you know, I guess I like to think of this
[11:21]as a good thing because it was my life.
[11:24]So let's find the positives.
[11:25]Of course, there's like negatives to not having
[11:27]a Jewish community, but the positive is you don't worry
[11:30]about what other people are doing.
[11:32]And I think that that led to me having sort of a creative
[11:34]freedom with the holidays.
[11:36]So for instance, even just my rainbow apples and honey board,
[11:39]which that's my favorite, by the way.
[11:41]I know I have a dog here.
[11:43]It was our Rosh Hashanah.
[11:45]I also included it in our newsletter this week, by the way,
[11:47]but it's so beautiful.
[11:49]Yeah, that was also very impressive
[11:52]that you could just flip to that page.
[11:53]So I guess you did have a dog here.
[11:55]That's amazing.
[11:56]Yeah, so like even that, which it's not that controversial.
[11:59]It's just a couple of different colors of apples.
[12:02]You know, I don't think that's ever been done before.
[12:04]And I'm not nervous to put these ideas out in the world.
[12:08]And I often get asked this question of like,
[12:11]how do you have the courage to put these creative spins?
[12:14]And to me, I don't think there's much courage involved
[12:16]because it's just, oh, let me try it this way.
[12:20]But I've learned from others that maybe like
[12:22]when you grow up with more of a community around
[12:25]or you do certain things a certain way at your shul
[12:28]or you do things a certain way at camp,
[12:30]it might be trickier to step outside of that box.
[12:33]So for me, I never had that.
[12:34]And it led to this beautiful thing,
[12:36]which is a creative freedom.
[12:38]But what it also led to, which I think is in the book,
[12:40]is a reverence for tradition as well as a desire
[12:44]to make things new.
[12:45]As I said, my father had this very religious background.
[12:48]And so I don't just toss aside an entire holiday.
[12:53]I don't call things a total blank slate.
[12:55]I really like to start with what's there
[12:57]before I extrapolate outwards
[12:59]in everything from a fader to the home
[13:02]and passion making party for a poem.
[13:04]I still try to ground everything in sort of a respect
[13:07]for Jewishness and Judaism.
[13:10]So my relationship to Judaism now is honestly
[13:13]I get nervous to say this, but it starts with God.
[13:16]For me, it doesn't for everyone,
[13:18]but I think you can also see that in the book.
[13:20]There's blessings, there's moments
[13:22]when I do, I take it seriously.
[13:24]And there's moments when that comes through.
[13:26]And I also think that you can have fun.
[13:28]You don't have, it doesn't have to be black and white.
[13:30]So there's a lot of joking, there's a lot of playfulness,
[13:32]there is a lot of different cocktails with funny names,
[13:36]but at the end of the day, it's rooted in that reverence
[13:39]for tradition.
[13:40]So that's me, and I don't expect that to be the case
[13:43]for everyone who picks up my book.
[13:44]But I just wanted to make sure it felt authentic
[13:47]to where I'm coming from.
[13:49]So, and I know this may come out afterwards,
[13:52]but for example, you're break fast.
[13:55]What are you gonna do?
[13:56]Do you feel pressure now that you are the creator
[14:01]of all these things to like,
[14:04]you can't just like slap down some bagels.
[14:07]Do you know like everything has to be a plus, right?
[14:10]You know what?
[14:11]Yes, first of all, so I was on my little book tour last week
[14:15]and now I have a bit of a break.
[14:16]So I am hosting break fast, did not host Russia, Shana.
[14:19]And I would never let the pressure get to me
[14:21]like, nope, that was not happening, went to my sister's house.
[14:24]But I am hosting break fast.
[14:25]And to answer your question, I do feel some pressure.
[14:29]And I guess I love it.
[14:30]I guess that's why I do this.
[14:33]And I write this also in the book that for some people,
[14:36]like me, putting together a table or,
[14:39]as it were, you know, putting bagels onto a platter
[14:42]and getting a bit stressed out
[14:43]can actually be a nice enramp to joy.
[14:46]So for me, I'm sure I sounded a bit crazy to some people,
[14:51]but others, I think it'll make perfect sense.
[14:53]And I wouldn't be surprised if you feel the same way.
[14:55]Like some pressure and some stress and panicking.
[15:00]is first of all, it's so Jewish to freak out a little
[15:03]as you're hosting something.
[15:05]And I find that that ends up being part of the joy
[15:07]and the warmth of the day.
[15:09]And so will I be starving on Yom Kippur
[15:13]and running around trying to make everything perfect?
[15:15]Yes, will it be stressful?
[15:17]Oh yeah, and that's so fun.
[15:20]Like I think it's fun.
[15:22]And then being exhausted at the end of the day
[15:24]and looking down at everyone enjoying the meal,
[15:28]I think that brings a lot of joy
[15:30]and just to make sure no one misunderstands,
[15:33]I don't do this every day.
[15:35]So most days, I'm just recording this podcast
[15:39]and going to grab a coffee, like working a normal day,
[15:43]being with my kids.
[15:44]So the holidays, therefore, can get a little stressful
[15:47]and chaotic and it's okay because it's only once in a while.
[15:51]And I also say in the book that like Shabbat for instance,
[15:54]I do not go crazy every Friday.
[15:57]I know some people do and I admire them so much for that.
[16:01]But Shabbat for me has to be really simplified.
[16:04]Every once in a while, a couple times a year,
[16:07]I think it's fun to add some pressure and go crazy
[16:10]and make those bagels look good.
[16:12]I'm with you though.
[16:14]I mean, I was trying to explain to some of the other day,
[16:17]like yes, I'm stressed a lot
[16:18]and I have deadlines all the time,
[16:20]like but I really love that.
[16:22]Like if I'm not feeling stressed in a way,
[16:25]then I could get sad.
[16:27]I think I need there because I'm still listening
[16:29]on this conversation for this institution.
[16:33]But that's exactly how I feel.
[16:35]I'm very aware, especially lately
[16:38]in both a personal and a global sense.
[16:41]After October 7th, everything, I just life is short
[16:45]and let's get everything out of it
[16:48]and let's add a bunch of deadlines
[16:50]and add some stress and invite more people over for dinner
[16:54]because this is it, this is our one chance.
[16:57]And I often think about that
[16:58]when it comes to beautifying Jewish traditions.
[17:00]Like this is my one opportunity.
[17:02]I mean, I could cry.
[17:04]This is my one little life to honor my ancestors
[17:09]and my parents and my children.
[17:12]I have this one little window and then it's gone
[17:14]and I'm going to use up every minute.
[17:16]So, and so yeah, I think that like,
[17:21]I just love this idea that like hosting can be stressful
[17:24]and still enjoyable and the same goes for all of life.
[17:27]Like there's things that are hard,
[17:28]but they're still good and worthwhile.
[17:30]So there.
[17:31]I love that.
[17:32]I love that so much.
[17:33]Oh my gosh.
[17:34]So Rebecca, where do you want this whole thing to take you?
[17:39]Maybe another book.
[17:40]Are you seeing like a show?
[17:43]Like do you like do you want like what do you want?
[17:46]What where does this go?
[17:46]That's funny that you say a show.
[17:48]I don't know if you know this.
[17:49]I don't know if this is in the book,
[17:50]but I used to be a musical theme.
[17:52]My mother was a brand dress.
[17:54]No, I do not see this going into a show,
[17:56]but that would be really fun.
[17:58]But you know what?
[17:59]You never know.
[18:00]You never know.
[18:01]But I definitely have plans for a second book
[18:05]and we should talk.
[18:07]I'm sure I don't call chat about that.
[18:09]But I do because this has led me to a writerly place
[18:13]that I am sure you know that how this is.
[18:16]Like I thought I was comfortable writing.
[18:19]I thought that I already knew
[18:21]how to write for a public audience.
[18:23]I've been writing Instagram and on my blog for a while,
[18:25]but there's something about a book
[18:27]that just drills into you and it just makes that
[18:31]like second nature really grows that muscle.
[18:33]I guess is what I'm trying to say.
[18:34]And so now I've grown that muscle
[18:36]and I want to do more with it.
[18:37]Like I can't just stop.
[18:38]So I really would like to write another book
[18:41]and I would like it as you said to be more of like
[18:44]a nonfiction book.
[18:46]What that means, I don't know.
[18:48]Don't know where that will take me.
[18:50]Definitely the beginnings of that idea are there.
[18:52]And then I also have another idea
[18:55]for a sort of brick and mortar store
[18:59]that I will not say more about today,
[19:02]but just wanted to throw that out there
[19:03]to excite some people who are listening.
[19:05]I have an idea for a shop
[19:06]and I've had this idea for like 10 years.
[19:09]And that's all I'm gonna say about that.
[19:12]But it's a dream of mine.
[19:14]So I see.
[19:15]You should absolutely see.
[19:16]Having opened a bookstore,
[19:17]it was like having my dream shop become a reality
[19:21]was the coolest thing that's ever happened.
[19:22]And it seems amazing.
[19:24]And I can't wait to visit on October 11th.
[19:27]Yes.
[19:28]I'm excited to be there.
[19:29]So amazing.
[19:31]Do you have advice for, well, first of all,
[19:33]what about the person who really wants to host
[19:36]but doesn't have a lot of time?
[19:37]And I know you have simple things
[19:39]and more elaborate things and whatever.
[19:40]But like take one thing from the book
[19:42]and say like do this one thing
[19:45]to elevate all of your celebrations?
[19:47]Yeah.
[19:48]Okay.
[19:49]I don't know if I can answer that exact last question
[19:51]with some universal truth.
[19:53]But what I can tell you to answer
[19:55]the basic idea behind this question
[19:57]is just begin.
[20:00]And when I was growing up every Friday, we had a supermarket,
[20:03]Hala.
[20:04]It was wrapped in plastic.
[20:06]It still had the little rice on it.
[20:09]And we didn't even unwrap the plastic,
[20:12]which is a little horrifying.
[20:14]We just threw it on the table in its plastic.
[20:17]And then I had many siblings.
[20:18]And we would all kind of rip open this plastic.
[20:20]And what I like to tell people now is,
[20:23]even that supermarket Hala is such a beautiful way in.
[20:27]Because for me, even now, as I walk through the supermarket
[20:29]and I see the Hala loaves in their plastic bags,
[20:32]it's like it got imbued with a supernatural sacredness for me.
[20:38]And so it is not just about the homemade Hala.
[20:42]And the homemade is there that you can make a store bought
[20:46]meal so beautiful and also so sacred.
[20:51]And so I will never turn my nose up at that supermarket
[20:55]Hala or at, for instance, the filter fish from a jar.
[20:58]Now, that's the most controversial thing I know,
[21:00]I'll say on this podcast.
[21:01]But like, we used to have good filter fish from the jar.
[21:04]Now I make it from scratch, but I love the jar kind.
[21:08]I think it's great, not the one in the gel,
[21:10]the one in the bra, that gel has got to go.
[21:14]But so I guess what I would say to anyone looking to host
[21:18]for the first time is, hosting is stressful enough
[21:22]all on its own simply inviting people into your home
[21:25]and wondering if they're going to have fun.
[21:27]So why not just like, go give your favorite Jewish delicatessen
[21:31]or bakery, some good business for your first attempt?
[21:35]Don't cook anything, don't bake anything.
[21:37]And just use to the process of having people over
[21:40]because it may be that you end up turning into a great chef
[21:46]while you're at it or it might be that you forever
[21:48]go to that one deli and that becomes the tradition
[21:51]and that becomes the magic.
[21:53]So that's what I would say, start with store bought.
[21:56]Love it.
[21:57]By the way, I have my favorite plastic wrapped grocery store.
[22:01]It's a whole wheat hola.
[22:03]I can't remember the name.
[22:04]So good.
[22:04]It's so yummy.
[22:06]Like always moist.
[22:07]I don't know why it's probably full of it.
[22:08]That's the thing.
[22:09]I don't know.
[22:10]It's like they brush it with liars.
[22:12]I don't know what they do, but I have made a lot of hola
[22:15]in my time and I don't think it's possible to make it as soft
[22:19]as they make it.
[22:20]Right.
[22:21]I know.
[22:21]It's always dry or dry.
[22:23]I've tried.
[22:24]I mean, you could use like a brioche dough, you know,
[22:25]make it, but telling you there's something about those super
[22:28]market hola that we should all aspire to.
[22:31]And yeah, awesome.
[22:33]Well, Rebecca, what a pleasure.
[22:35]I'm such a fan and I love this book so much.
[22:38]And I keep talking about this book and recommending it and
[22:41]everything.
[22:41]So congratulations.
[22:42]And I'm so excited you can start.
[22:44]I can't wait and thank you so much.
[22:46]This was really, really fun.
[22:47]Awesome.
[22:48]All right.
[22:49]Bye.
[22:50]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi.
[22:53]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[22:56]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me
[22:59]on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word.
[23:03]Thanks so much.
[23:04]Go and buy the books.