Zibby Owens on Her Decade of Extreme Change
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and that the story behind it. Enjoy!
[0:26]Today is the publication day for my collection of essays called Between
[0:30]Chapters. How I started over, took some chances, and found the plot.
[0:36]You guys, I am excited and nervous. I feel like I've just pulled out my diary
[0:42]and handed it over to all of you. I mean, I'm very well-edited diary, but still
[0:46]these are my own private behind-the-scenes thoughts and scenes and
[0:52]moments and reflections. They're essays about times
[0:56]in my life where I've like laughed so hard. I've cried,
[1:00]moments I've cried so hard. I didn't know what to do
[1:04]and everything in between. And I really, really hope
[1:08]that you'll appreciate it. Read it, commiserate,
[1:12]find some moments of understanding, seek glimpses of yourself
[1:16]and take this short read for what it is, a moment of
[1:20]downtime, just for you where you can connect with someone else,
[1:24]someone else being me. I'm going on tour. I'm actually already on tour
[1:28]and did events last weekend have events this
[1:32]week. If you're listening to this in the morning, I'll be at the
[1:36]JCC on Tuesday night in Manhattan and at
[1:40]the Stryker Center with Bobby Brown and Sabrina Rudin on Thursday, the
[1:44]24th. I have so many events all over all over
[1:48]in California, Florida, places like Indianapolis and St.
[1:52]Louis and I'm used in. I'm just doing it and I would love
[1:56]for you to join me on the road. Also, I've invited
[2:00]all of the contributors to the Between Chapter's
[2:03]Substack, which if you haven't checked out, you must. You go to
[2:06]zibbyowans.com and you can click on the Between Chapter's
[2:10]tab. I put out a call for entries a month or two ago, a few
[2:14]months ago, to have all of you write essays about what chapter
[2:18]of your life you're in and what you're going through. We've gotten so many submissions.
[2:22]We've released over 80, probably 90 essays so far.
[2:26]Candidly, we have 70 plus edited and ready to be released
[2:30]and I've found a whole new community through the contributors
[2:34]to the substack. We even have a WhatsApp group and all that and
[2:38]they will be ambassadors on the tour. I'm going to ask them to stand
[2:42]up at every event and talk about the chapter they're in. This is a very
[2:46]communal tour. It's not about a novel I've written and
[2:50]my thoughts and feelings. This is about you. This is about all of us and what we're going through.
[2:54]I hope you'll come out and be a part of it. To that end, I am releasing
[2:58]this episode, which is a conversation I had
[3:02]with bestselling author Renee Rosen. Over the summer, we had
[3:06]a Chicago outside Chicago retreat at Matchmaker Bookshop
[3:10]in Highland Park, which if you haven't been to, you should.
[3:14]It's adorable and has a great selection of books and fabulous wallpaper
[3:18]and dark green walls and I don't know. I just loved it.
[3:22]Check out that bookstore. Anyway, we did a whole event there for those of you who are there
[3:26]maybe just go down memory lane and re-listen to our conversation
[3:30]and for everyone else you'll feel like you were in the room where it happened.
[3:34]It was the first time I talked publicly about the book and so I was
[3:38]unguarded and I mean, I always am, but I was just so excited
[3:42]and I hope that you can sense that when you listen to our conversation, Renee Rosen
[3:46]is a fabulous author in her own right. She has
[3:50]written so many books, including let's call her Barbie
[3:54]and Fifth Avenue Glamour girl and her next novel is coming out in June
[3:58]2027. So get excited for that. She also contributed to
[4:02]on being Jewish now and is generally just a fabulous woman who
[4:07]you should check out. Enjoy our conversation. Thanks again to
[4:10]Matchmaker for hosting. And you guys, oh my gosh, follow along on
[4:14]Instagram. I'll be posting from all the tour staffs.
[4:17]Check out the substags. Do come on tour with me.
[4:22]Tell your friends about the book and I hope you read the book.
[4:25]And if you do, let me know which chapter stood out to you.
[4:28]Enjoy. Well, this is such a treat for me to be able to talk
[4:33]you and it's a little weird to be on the side of the conversation, you know.
[4:37]And when I finished the book, I sent you an email
[4:41]and I said that I felt like we were just friends having a cup of coffee
[4:46]and I got to know all these different sides to you.
[4:50]And then I went back and I looked at all, I mean, she has pages and pages of
[4:55]advance praise for this collection. And so many people referenced.
[5:00]I felt like we were friends having a cup of coffee.
[5:02]And that's the way it feels.
[5:04]So you guys are really, there's no accident,
[5:07]I'm sure of the way that you position the essays and all.
[5:12]And we can talk a little bit more about that.
[5:14]But I was telling someone about your collection
[5:17]and I said, you know, it made me laugh.
[5:20]You know, I'm not a crier, I'm dehydrated from my earlier year
[5:23]so I don't find them, but you did choke me up.
[5:26]And, you know, I said, it's like 10 years of her life
[5:30]of making really tough decisions of the highs and the lows.
[5:34]And, you know, just the courage to say,
[5:37]I'm going to try this, I'm going to try podcast,
[5:39]I'm going to try this, I'm going to try that.
[5:41]And so that's how I would describe your book,
[5:43]but I would love to know how you would describe between characters.
[5:48]I mean, I'll take yours.
[5:49]Yeah, that's pretty good.
[5:50]I would describe it as a collection of essays
[5:54]about a decade of extreme change in my life
[5:57]where I went from being a stay-at-home mom of four
[5:59]on the upper east side, thinking my life was set
[6:02]and it would forever go on one track.
[6:04]And then I made one decision after another that took it
[6:07]in a whole another way.
[6:10]And that is why I've ended up here right now.
[6:12]But I changed everything.
[6:14]My name changed twice.
[6:16]I went back to my main name.
[6:17]I got remarried, divorced, remarried.
[6:19]I moved, I changed jobs.
[6:21]I gained weight, then I lost weight.
[6:24]I gained, lost friends, then I gained friends.
[6:26]I just went through like a total change in every way.
[6:32]And I kind of thought I was trapped.
[6:36]And now I just feel like so free and happy all the time.
[6:40]Not all the time.
[6:41]I mean, I was like crying this morning,
[6:42]but it's not even kidding.
[6:44]But it's not a memoir in that it's not a reflection back.
[6:49]Like I wrote a memoir already called Bookends
[6:51]and the memoir of Love, Lost and Literature.
[6:52]And we can read that.
[6:54]But this is like short essays from the time.
[6:56]It's about mistakes I made.
[6:58]It's moments that I didn't want to forget.
[7:01]And I process everything by writing.
[7:02]And this is how I got through in that time,
[7:05]not knowing how things would work out.
[7:07]Like I didn't know I would eventually become an author
[7:10]when I wrote these essays, even though I wanted to.
[7:12]I didn't know I would own a bookstore.
[7:14]I mean, these things were like wilds to me.
[7:16]And I never would have imagined
[7:17]all of this would have happened.
[7:18]So I feel like I was just there.
[7:21]Like I just cannot believe I'm even sitting here.
[7:23]And the book is sort of how I got from there to here.
[7:26]And you're so open.
[7:28]I mean, this is, you're an open book in a way, you know?
[7:31]Then it was taken by Jessica Simpson.
[7:37]Has anyone read open book by Jessica Simpson?
[7:40]No, I should have just taken it again.
[7:42]Yeah, I can't copy it right.
[7:43]But one thing that really stuck with me
[7:46]is the authenticity.
[7:49]And especially today, you know, with AI
[7:51]and everybody posing on Instagram and Facebook and TikTok,
[7:56]you let it all hang out there.
[7:58]People follow you whether it's on sub-stack
[8:00]or social media, you cry, you laugh, you're goofy,
[8:05]you're angry, you're, you know, you put it all out there.
[8:09]And like, are you consciously aware
[8:13]that you're doing that or is it like, no, it's just me
[8:16]and I'm just letting it rip?
[8:18]I mean, I would lie if I said I wasn't conscious
[8:21]of what I put out on Instagram, especially now
[8:24]because now I can be like, hey, Claude, what do you think?
[8:26]I'm going to post this.
[8:28]No, but I have been writing authentically since I could write.
[8:33]And my first article ever was published in 17 Magazine
[8:37]that I wrote when I was 14 about in the aftermath
[8:39]of my parents' doors and how I had gained like 20 pounds
[8:43]and ninth grade and felt like people were treating me differently.
[8:46]And I didn't think that was fair.
[8:48]I like to write a lot about what I don't think is fair.
[8:51]So I didn't think that was fair.
[8:52]And I wrote all about that.
[8:54]And I was nervous about it.
[8:56]I didn't think it would ever get, well, your mom on.
[8:59]My mom suggested I sent it in.
[9:01]So, okay, fine, I'll give her lots of credit.
[9:02]But they did buy it and then they got all this fan mail.
[9:05]And that was really the experience.
[9:07]That's what did it.
[9:07]It wasn't the article itself.
[9:09]It's all the letters, which they shared with me,
[9:11]many of which they reprinted.
[9:13]And I realized how many people felt the same way as me.
[9:17]I didn't know anybody felt the same way as me.
[9:19]And that feeling made me feel so much better.
[9:22]And then kids at school who I was like, seriously?
[9:24]Like, you worry about this too.
[9:26]And it's one thing to have my grandmother say, oh, come on.
[9:29]Honey, like everybody worries.
[9:31]But it's another to have like, you know, Suzanne,
[9:34]walk over to me and say, I feel the same way.
[9:36]So that gave me the positive encouragement
[9:39]that I needed to do what already came naturally to me more.
[9:43]And I don't know why.
[9:44]It's not like I feel so brave.
[9:47]It's just I can take a moment and quickly turn it into an essay.
[9:52]And I don't hide anything.
[9:54]But I also do, I don't like overshare.
[9:56]I don't like to say every detail.
[9:58]I think part of writing is as you.
[10:00]Well, no, Renee is like picking out the parts of it
[10:02]that matter, that resonating, cutting out the rest.
[10:05]And that's the hard part.
[10:06]If I actually told you about everything that
[10:08]happened in the airport that day,
[10:10]you would be bored out of your mind.
[10:12]So you just have to pick a couple things.
[10:14]So the answer, I don't know why.
[10:17]I just, I'm not any, I'm not more special than anybody else.
[10:21]I just like decided to share it.
[10:23]And if I'm not sharing authentically, why bother?
[10:26]Well, I was going to ask you, you process with the pen.
[10:30]I'm also an external processor.
[10:32]I don't journal so much anymore.
[10:35]Do you feel like, do you go back and edit?
[10:38]Or is it just like, I'm putting it out there
[10:41]and hit send out, out it goes?
[10:44]Are you a big editor or a reviser?
[10:46]I edit, but I don't belabor it.
[10:49]I write quickly.
[10:51]And then I probably edit for half to three quarters
[10:55]as long as I originally wrote it.
[10:57]And then I put it out there.
[10:58]Sometimes I'll read it to Kyle.
[11:00]That's brave.
[11:00]That's courage.
[11:01]Well, I edit it till I feel like I got it where it needs to be.
[11:05]And then I have to move on to do something else.
[11:07]But it depends.
[11:08]I mean, the essays in this book, many of which not many,
[11:11]but a handful were already published mostly by me.
[11:13]So I don't even consider that being published.
[11:16]I posted it on my website because I had never actually
[11:19]published it.
[11:21]I went back this time and rewrote a lot of those.
[11:23]Like none of these are really as they were.
[11:25]And then there's some I found on my computer.
[11:27]And I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this.
[11:29]And I re-edited everything.
[11:31]So I loved edit.
[11:32]In fact, I started this other platform
[11:35]with between chapters that I hope you'll all
[11:37]just think in the back of your heads about writing for,
[11:39]about what chapter you're in, what chapter you're leaving,
[11:43]advice for someone, something that chapter you're expecting
[11:46]to go into, an unexpected chapter.
[11:48]So I put out this call for submissions two months ago or so.
[11:51]And we have like 100 plus that I haven't even
[11:54]had time to edit yet.
[11:56]But I'm learning so much from all the other people too,
[11:58]which has been amazing.
[12:00]I don't know, that was just a tangent.
[12:01]But anyway, you should write for that.
[12:03]One thing that really surprised me,
[12:05]because I've known you for several years now.
[12:08]And I've known you as you're zippy.
[12:11]But you were like almost painfully shy.
[12:14]I don't know if that was the writer in you
[12:16]who was more the observer than the jump in.
[12:19]And but this transformation, how did you get from there,
[12:23]from A to B?
[12:24]Because we see you as a role model and inspiration,
[12:28]but you worked at that, you transformed.
[12:32]Yeah, I was very socially anxious.
[12:35]And I literally could not speak when I was nervous.
[12:39]And there was a trip I went on after ninth grade.
[12:42]I guess ninth grade was just this fodder
[12:44]for lots of fabulous material.
[12:45]But I went on this trip to France,
[12:47]and I could speak when I did class,
[12:49]because I'm like a very type A, like have to do well
[12:52]in class type of person.
[12:53]But then when I was just with this group of 20 people,
[12:55]I just couldn't talk.
[12:56]And I would just sit there.
[12:57]And this is for weeks, like listening
[13:00]to their conversation patterns
[13:01]and thinking to myself, like, how is this working?
[13:03]How were they just jumping in?
[13:04]How did that person just jump in?
[13:06]Like, how did she, and I just listened the whole time,
[13:09]which I feel like is what I do every day now anyway.
[13:12]But yes, from the time I was little,
[13:14]I could be myself around people and me well,
[13:17]but new situations, you know, I would like smile,
[13:20]be nice, but I just like wouldn't say anything.
[13:22]But I didn't mean I wasn't thinking.
[13:24]I was having like a zillion-thots second,
[13:26]which is part of why I really liked writing,
[13:28]because then I could just like download everything
[13:30]that I had been already thinking about.
[13:32]And I feel like sometimes it just overflows,
[13:35]and that's when I have to start writing,
[13:37]or I don't even know where it goes.
[13:38]That's why, like posting on Instagram or sub stack
[13:41]gives me a regular outlet.
[13:42]But yeah, what did I do?
[13:43]I drank too much alcohol from a young age.
[13:46]Because that, I mean, honestly,
[13:49]but it like let me talk in college
[13:52]and like whatever, so I felt more comfortable.
[13:55]Then finally, I just like went on Instagram,
[13:57]so that's not how to.
[13:58]But I honestly think it just took a while.
[14:02]It took until, I want to say like my mid 20s,
[14:05]maybe no longer because I was a business school
[14:08]and I was also not talking very much.
[14:09]I don't know.
[14:10]It just, it has been this new phase
[14:14]where I'm finally like, this is my voice,
[14:18]and this is who I am.
[14:19]And I consider everybody who I come into contact with,
[14:23]probably in a, I probably shouldn't do this,
[14:25]but like, I've just extended the people I feel comfortable with.
[14:30]So it's less that I still get nervous
[14:32]around certain situations and certain groups
[14:35]and I'll still walk into a party and be like,
[14:36]oh my gosh, I'm just gonna smile and wave and walk around
[14:40]and then leave, but I just consider a lot more people,
[14:43]like I just met a lot of you,
[14:44]but like I feel very comfortable around you.
[14:47]I mean, I guess when you organize an event,
[14:48]and tell about yourself, it has that effect.
[14:52]But I think that's, it's just a different approach, too.
[14:55]So motherhood is a big theme throughout the book.
[14:59]And.
[15:00]you know, the joys of it, the overwhelm.
[15:02]And I don't have children, but I could feel like,
[15:06]oh my God, I gotta make dinner like every night
[15:09]for the next time, you know.
[15:11]So what advice do you find dinner so annoying?
[15:14]What advice would you give to all the mothers out here?
[15:20]Oh, advice.
[15:21]Well, I do feel like I should give advice,
[15:25]like I see someone pushing a stroke.
[15:27]I have four, let me preface, I have four kids.
[15:29]And my oldest two or twins, they just turned 19,
[15:32]they're going to college in the fall.
[15:33]And then I have a rising seventh grader
[15:36]and a rising sixth grader, 13 and 11.
[15:39]So I'm in all the stages.
[15:40]Right, like I am just,
[15:42]and I'm out of the physical stage,
[15:44]just why my muscles and atrophy and so much I just realized
[15:49]it's like the first summer where my kids
[15:50]don't even really wanna be like in the pool.
[15:53]Like usually they were like climbing on me all summer
[15:55]and I'm like, oh, but now they don't.
[15:56]I was like, wait, did I really kind of like that?
[16:00]But I think it's so tried to say it goes so fast.
[16:02]But I would just say, a lot of it was like really terrible.
[16:05]Like I was really unhappy for a lot of those days.
[16:08]Like the days were so, I mean,
[16:10]I say the days were long,
[16:12]but like literally I would wake up like counting down
[16:14]to when I could go to bed at night.
[16:15]I'm like, how can I get through this day?
[16:17]And I taught myself all these tricks.
[16:20]Like when I wanted to cry,
[16:21]but I wanted to hide it from the kids
[16:23]and I would read them like embarrassing bears,
[16:24]just something I would count the letters.
[16:26]This is something I still did.
[16:27]Like if I read out loud,
[16:28]but I count how many letters at the same time
[16:30]were in each word, I can like, stave off the tears.
[16:33]So I taught myself all these tricks to hold it together.
[16:36]And I say in this book too,
[16:37]like I went through like just this really sad,
[16:40]that's not mine.
[16:41]This really sad moment where I was actually like shopping
[16:45]for the kids or something.
[16:46]And this is really cute stuffed animal monkey
[16:48]at which I collect these like stuffed animal monkeys
[16:50]since I was a kid.
[16:51]So I like bought this giant monkey for myself.
[16:54]And my son who at the time was like,
[16:55]I don't know, six.
[16:56]I was like, oh, you got me a stuffed animal.
[16:58]And I was like, no honey, like this is for me.
[17:00]Like, you know, those days where you're just feeling
[17:02]really sad and like, and I said this to him,
[17:04]like, this is what I got to like share myself up.
[17:07]And he looked at me and he's like,
[17:10]it doesn't look like it's working.
[17:12]Yeah.
[17:14]Can you share really quickly a little bit
[17:18]about taking your kids to Walmart
[17:20]and your daughter's reaction?
[17:22]Yeah, so we're from New York City.
[17:24]And I hadn't been to, I hadn't taken my kids to a Walmart.
[17:28]Our biggest treat was like the second floor
[17:30]of Ziddamers Pharmacy in New York City.
[17:32]And I took, I had forgotten something really important
[17:35]like diapers for the baby or something.
[17:36]So we like had an emergency stuff at Walmart
[17:38]visiting my mom in Arizona.
[17:40]And my daughter who was choose for like eight or nine
[17:43]like walked into Walmart into the toy aisle
[17:45]and was like, oh my God, I am in heaven.
[17:49]And she like was like rooted to the spot.
[17:53]And I took all these pictures of her
[17:54]with like her jaw on the floor.
[17:55]It was so fun.
[17:56]I love this store.
[17:57]Yeah, I love this store.
[17:58]Oh my God, I love this place.
[17:59]That's what you said.
[18:00]This place.
[18:01]I laughed out loud.
[18:03]Yeah, I could not.
[18:05]Oh God.
[18:06]So another, so motherhood is clearly woven throughout.
[18:11]And your weight loss journey.
[18:13]Let's talk about the dedication.
[18:15]Yes, I dedicated the book to Manjaro.
[18:17]So because you were out there talking about this before,
[18:27]now other people are sharing their stories.
[18:29]But you were the first person I remember being on that.
[18:33]And that's what I say.
[18:34]And I know you hate it when people say you're brave,
[18:36]but you're brave.
[18:37]It takes to put that stuff out there,
[18:41]not that it's horrible stuff or anything like that.
[18:44]But you're opening and making it safe for other people.
[18:49]And I think there's the first to do that,
[18:52]I think is a brave act.
[18:54]So I think I think it's nice.
[18:56]Yes, I have a long, I could have written like five books
[18:59]just on weight loss and weight gain,
[19:02]but nobody would ever want to read that.
[19:03]But I just am one of these people
[19:06]look like so much food noise.
[19:07]I just used to think about food just all the time
[19:09]and eating it and then gaining weight from it easily.
[19:12]And then working out like crazy and trying this diet
[19:15]and trying that diet.
[19:17]And I don't know, like my mother had me
[19:18]like writing down my calories starting when I was nine
[19:21]from like her battered calories and carbohydrates
[19:25]book from when she was little, which is probably
[19:27]like totally inaccurate.
[19:29]And for a while, I was like, oh, it was on my mom's fault.
[19:31]But it turns out it wasn't because now that I have kids
[19:34]because apparently I was asking her for help.
[19:37]And I'm like, how do I control this?
[19:38]Like how do I stop thinking about it?
[19:40]And I felt like it was something.
[19:42]So there was always a public manifestation
[19:45]of what I couldn't control because it was so obvious.
[19:47]Like I can't control this.
[19:49]And I was never, you know, it didn't get like out
[19:53]of control type of thing.
[19:54]But it was just like I couldn't stop eating.
[19:57]And I felt very helpless in the whole thing.
[19:59]And so.
[20:00]I tried lots of things, and the first thing that I really found that worked was Weight Watchers.
[20:05]Is that one?
[20:06]Anybody?
[20:07]Okay, so I went to school.
[20:08]They were really funny.
[20:09]So I am so type-a that I found that point system to be a gift from God.
[20:16]I have eight years of those binders where every single bite of food I have is written
[20:22]down and recorded.
[20:23]I'm like, who is ever going to want to see this?
[20:25]But if you're interested in what I ate it, so it's wedding.
[20:29]I'll have the two points for the egg white, whatever, no, sorry.
[20:33]Three egg whites.
[20:34]Doesn't I?
[20:35]Anyway.
[20:36]So I lost 25 pounds, then I had to stay at my goal weight for a certain, and they had
[20:42]a whole formula.
[20:43]And I ate it up, and then they were like, if you keep that on, off for six weeks,
[20:47]you can be a receptionist, and then work your way up to a meeting leader, and I was like,
[20:50]okay.
[20:51]So next thing you know, I'm at a holiday in in New Jersey getting trained to be a leader, and
[20:58]then like, coding around these like giant flippers of way watchers, like listings all
[21:05]around New York City, going into offices.
[21:07]I worked at Avon.
[21:08]I worked at different centers.
[21:09]I was like, I had to work my way up from weighing people in, like holding all of their
[21:14]jewelry, because of, you know, and the people who were like, I'm going to weigh in with
[21:22]my back to you.
[21:23]I don't want to know, or like, tell me, only tell me if it's this.
[21:26]And I was just right there.
[21:27]So I was like, oh, no, I totally get it.
[21:29]But this was what yours says.
[21:31]This was, do you think you came to my meeting?
[21:35]It was 2003 to 2008 or so, I don't know, something like that.
[21:40]I mean, I didn't leave the whole time, but I was like, in the meeting rooms.
[21:43]So I got like totally obsessed with it.
[21:44]I think it was kind of like an eating disorder, like I, you know, my brother came over one
[21:48]time.
[21:49]And I was like, do you know what I was like, here, do you understand all this?
[21:54]That's one point.
[22:02]Anyway, you've like lost it.
[22:05]So anyway, but then like, I'm not super serious that my hair started falling out.
[22:10]I kind of got too thin.
[22:11]I've been too thin for me, which is not too thin for anyone else.
[22:14]But I guess I just have a higher set point anyway, whatever, then I had kids and it's
[22:19]like a whole thing.
[22:20]So eventually then I gained a lot of weight after COVID and menopause and whatever.
[22:24]And then yeah, I went to my daughter, I started having like health complications and like
[22:29]cola, you know, blah, blah, blah.
[22:30]And she said, what are you going to, what are you going to do about this?
[22:32]And that's like, I don't know.
[22:33]That thing works.
[22:34]So she said, why don't you see an endocrinologist?
[22:36]So I know it's this endocrinologist and you did that reluctantly.
[22:39]I know.
[22:40]I didn't want to go and I didn't have time and she was like, oh, yeah, and I told her
[22:44]my whole weight history.
[22:45]And she was like, it doesn't matter.
[22:47]Like take this, you'll lose 30 pounds by the summer.
[22:49]And I was like, very funny.
[22:50]She's like, no, no, you well.
[22:51]And I was like, that's impossible.
[22:53]I've been trying to lose 30 pounds my whole life.
[22:56]And she's like, no, no, trust me, you're going to.
[22:59]And I did.
[23:00]It was crazy.
[23:01]But more than that, it wasn't hard.
[23:03]Like I fought to lose every point two of a pound for years.
[23:07]And this is I just don't think about it.
[23:09]I don't think about it.
[23:10]I mean, not to say I did not just, I mean, I did just, and then I said, well, we're
[23:14]going to cross the street before this.
[23:16]But like I might not be hungry again for, so anyway, I'm very grateful because now
[23:22]my head is clear of that.
[23:24]It's like I like to move down a lot of furniture.
[23:27]And now I have room for more stuff.
[23:29]And I'm very, very, very grateful for that.
[23:31]Yeah.
[23:31]Yeah.
[23:32]That was too long an answer.
[23:33]I'll get better next time.
[23:34]This is my first event.
[23:35]So speed back, feedback, welcome for future events.
[23:38]So you write about the palisades fires.
[23:40]And what I have not, I've been California, but I've never been there.
[23:46]And I thought what you do so beautifully and touchingly and you bring us there and you
[23:54]describe what that community was like, pre-fire and the pain and the devastation.
[24:02]And you, I don't know if you had a little bit of survivor's guilt because your property
[24:07]was relatively unharmed.
[24:10]But you do this wonderful, it's still hopeful at the end.
[24:14]Like as hard as it was for you going back there, do you feel like your book is about
[24:19]reinvention?
[24:20]The palisades are going through a reinvention.
[24:24]And how do you view all that and was that a particularly difficult essay to write?
[24:30]Well, that was another time that I needed to write.
[24:34]And I actually wrote so much more about it and had to cut a lot because I was writing
[24:39]about it almost every day for a while.
[24:42]So Kyle and I got a home in the palisades 10 years ago, 8 years ago, something like that,
[24:48]which is in New York, Santa Monica, in California, if you haven't been there in 2016, yeah,
[24:53]10 years ago.
[24:54]So you do the math.
[24:56]So yeah.
[24:57]Oh, you can't do math either?
[25:00]I can't.
[25:01]I'm out of math, but I don't know.
[25:04]I do the math, I do.
[25:06]And we got attached to it very quickly and felt such a part of the community.
[25:12]And that was also where we were working towards.
[25:15]Like when the kids were older, this is our plan.
[25:18]And every time we were like, when can we get back to the passage?
[25:22]It was how we were marking time, it was like there.
[25:25]And then when the fire came in like our house, yes, ended up being okay.
[25:31]Enough.
[25:32]I mean, we were out of it for a year and we had lots of work to do.
[25:35]Everything melted and whatever.
[25:36]But it's fine now.
[25:37]It was so shocking to me to have like 7,000 homes, like all our friends, the whole community.
[25:43]I mean, I'm watching this fire now in France and Spain.
[25:47]Yeah.
[25:48]Like last night, I was up for an hour just like watching video.
[25:51]Why do I do this to myself?
[25:52]I was just watching these videos.
[25:54]It's so horrible.
[25:55]And people talking about their beautiful homes and communities.
[25:58]It's until you like until I had gone through it, I couldn't even imagine how rootless you could feel.
[26:04]And I had my primary home.
[26:05]So I felt really kind of stupid because I was in New York in my main home.
[26:09]And this is like, what was me, my other home.
[26:12]But it didn't feel like that.
[26:13]That was like, I can't even explain.
[26:16]You have a beautiful line.
[26:18]Who are we without our containers?
[26:20]You know, I think I may have paraphrased you a little bit there.
[26:24]But it just really struck me because that's our safe little hayman.
[26:28]And when that goes away, even if you have another one, you know, you're rootless.
[26:32]Yeah.
[26:33]Like we would drive around LA being like, what are we even doing here?
[26:36]Like where were we supposed to go and thank God for my bookstore?
[26:39]Because I would get off the plane and just go straight to my store.
[26:41]I mean, I do that anyway.
[26:42]But my store is like my home there.
[26:44]But it was like, we were like, where do we go?
[26:46]Like, what do we do?
[26:48]But we did a lot of work to try to get the palisades back.
[26:51]I organized this big clothing drive.
[26:53]Like I also, when things happen, I need to stay busy.
[26:56]Like I like to act.
[26:57]And that makes me feel better when I help other people and blah, blah, blah.
[27:01]So I did this big clothing drive and I did a lot of stuff at the bookstore.
[27:04]And I raised all the money to replace all the books that all the four schools lost that were burned down.
[27:09]So that was, that was good.
[27:10]And we were really.
[27:11]So I stayed active in the community and trying to help and helping behind the scenes and all that, which was good.
[27:16]And actually now, speaking of hope on August 15, the palisades is the village on by Caruso, which is like the cute shopping mall.
[27:25]Heart of the village now is reopening on August 15.
[27:29]So we just like canceled our plans and we're taking all the kids and flying out there.
[27:33]Because how can we not be there to mark this moment after almost two years.
[27:37]So yeah.
[27:38]So the podcast.
[27:39]Yes.
[27:40]I know how it got started, but maybe other people would be interested to hear that.
[27:44]When did you know that it was really starting to take off?
[27:48]This is this becoming a thing.
[27:50]And then of all the people that you've interviewed.
[27:54]Is there an author that you still like, oh, if I could just get like,
[28:00]you know, who is it that you still really, really want to interview?
[28:04]So yeah.
[28:05]Now there's lots of people I still really want to interview.
[28:07]When did I know it was taking off?
[28:11]I started getting guests I was really excited about.
[28:13]Well, actually that happened pretty quickly.
[28:15]I need a good answer to that.
[28:17]When I really knew was when there was this big article written about me,
[28:20]calling me like New York City's most powerful book influencer,
[28:23]which is like a year after the podcast started something like that.
[28:26]And I was literally walking down Lexington Avenue and this and people started texting me.
[28:30]And I was like, oh my gosh, look at this article.
[28:32]So then then I had a sense.
[28:34]But once people started coming to the events, I started events like probably four months after the podcast.
[28:40]Danny Shapiro is one of my favorite authors came over into the podcast.
[28:43]And she was like, you know, a lot of people do these salons in their apartments.
[28:46]Like you should do them and I'll be your first guest if you want.
[28:48]And I was like, okay.
[28:49]So I was like, don't leave.
[28:51]What data are we doing?
[28:52]So we planned it right then.
[28:53]And she came and I loved gathering people like this.
[28:55]And I just invited everybody I knew.
[28:57]And I was like, let's just try it.
[28:58]So that was good too.
[28:59]And then people started introducing me to more people.
[29:01]Everything has happened as coyotes.
[29:03]Everything happened organically.
[29:05]Like I didn't.
[29:06]Well, I tried.
[29:07]Don't get me wrong.
[29:08]I tried.
[29:09]I still try.
[29:10]And like what can I do to grow?
[29:11]I was looking at podcasts numbers this morning being like,
[29:13]okay, come on.
[29:14]What can I do next?
[29:15]But then someone will come and say like that episode really helped me or a bookseller
[29:18]from somewhere I've never even been emailed me yesterday and said because we were episode.
[29:22]Like I was prepared because this one book hit the list.
[29:25]It was sort of unexpected.
[29:26]It was called like everything has happened.
[29:28]But nothing changed.
[29:29]And if you something like that.
[29:31]And I had him on right before.
[29:32]And I'm released the episode.
[29:33]And she's like your interview is like helped me better when I sell my books and my store.
[29:37]And I'm like, that's amazing.
[29:38]Like I really started it to like help other busy moms like me who didn't have time to read the books.
[29:42]We wish we were reading and missed that sort of like intellectual stimulation and like being part of the conversation other people are having.
[29:49]But not having time to like do the work.
[29:51]So I just listened to your Michael Cunningham.
[29:54]I have a story for you.
[29:56]Michael Cunningham really impacted my whole career.
[29:59]But that.
[30:00]that's where nobody wants to hear about that.
[30:01]But I'll share it with you.
[30:03]He's so lovely.
[30:05]And your conversation, you guys need to go here.
[30:07]You're really, have you read the hours?
[30:08]Do you remember the book, the hours?
[30:09]And that's why I'm at the end of the world.
[30:12]Chapter three, white ain't snow angel.
[30:15]It's flawless, flawless writing.
[30:17]So anyway.
[30:18]But thank you for listening.
[30:20]Oh, love it, love it.
[30:21]I really would love to have on Princess Kate.
[30:24]Oh.
[30:26]Like I'm like obsessed with her.
[30:27]I don't know.
[30:28]So I would love to talk to her.
[30:30]She's not an author, but maybe I could publish her book.
[30:35]Sortling back a little bit to how,
[30:37]when things sort of fall apart, you have to do something.
[30:40]You really stepped in after October 7th with, um,
[30:47]and I just got to come.
[30:49]And, you know, I don't know about you,
[30:52]but when that all went down, like,
[30:55]I have never posted politically.
[30:57]I'm very political, I have strong opinions,
[31:00]but I've just never put it on social media.
[31:02]And I remember after posting about what had happened,
[31:06]it was a picture of me in Israel,
[31:08]and I just said my heart is breaking in all directions.
[31:12]And the hate, I, the people that unfollowed me.
[31:18]Like, I'm still scared to post stuff, you know?
[31:21]And it's not just about, you know, anti-Semitism, right?
[31:25]Any posts that I put, I feel like I got to scrutinize
[31:28]every word, because you don't know
[31:30]how something's going to be interpreted.
[31:32]And let's, you know, how do you get past that?
[31:36]Oh, I don't get past it.
[31:38]I block all the time.
[31:41]Like, everyone who says anything,
[31:43]it took me like hours,
[31:45]and I was just like, block to leave, block to leave,
[31:47]God it in heaps.
[31:48]Oh yeah, I was getting some of tape.
[31:50]And people still find ways to get back at me.
[31:53]There was like some, you know,
[31:54]they're just, it doesn't stop.
[31:56]But it's like spreading so much still.
[32:00]And I wanted to do anything I could.
[32:04]And I'm not trying to say I'm hopeless now,
[32:06]but it's like, I feel like in the beginning,
[32:09]I was trying to like stand on the roof and be like,
[32:13]there's a, not that we needed it after October 7th,
[32:15]everybody knew, but even like the anti-Semitism
[32:18]in the literary world and how it was just festering.
[32:20]And you know, I just wanted to like shout
[32:23]from the rooftops and be like, hello,
[32:25]is everybody seeing this?
[32:25]Like this is what I was trained to do in Hebrew school.
[32:28]And like, in every, you know, past, like this is what,
[32:30]like this was, this is it, this was it.
[32:34]And I noticed.
[32:34]And so I did what I was supposed to do.
[32:36]And I like shouted about it.
[32:38]And then I gathered with people like you
[32:39]for the anthology and shouted about it.
[32:41]And I just gotta say, I got to see you in action.
[32:45]Do you know how long it takes to bring a book out?
[32:48]It takes like a year, a year and a half, you know,
[32:51]that's even after it's all written.
[32:53]You pulled it together and you did all the editing
[32:57]and the recording.
[32:59]And I mean, and how, how many months have we been
[33:03]on USA today now?
[33:05]How many weeks?
[33:06]29 weeks.
[33:07]29 weeks.
[33:07]So, and it's all, you were the key to that.
[33:12]I did that, but you all did that.
[33:14]Everybody needed a book later.
[33:16]We all got together.
[33:17]It's like having a book written by 75 people.
[33:20]So we all had stories to tell.
[33:22]And I knew that I couldn't change the direction of the world.
[33:27]I mean, at first I used to know that I could.
[33:29]But then I realized if I could just help our own community,
[33:33]feel less alone, then maybe that was worth doing,
[33:37]even if I couldn't stop the burgeoning hate.
[33:39]So I don't feel great about it,
[33:41]but I try not to put myself in openly dangerous situations.
[33:47]By the time someone's gonna come after me,
[33:49]they're gonna be coming after a lot more people.
[33:51]Like we're just gonna be in a really bad situation.
[33:53]I feel not would.
[33:55]So I'm just like, and I think that a lot of hate
[33:59]is still online.
[34:00]And it's maybe people aren't gonna act on it.
[34:03]I'm hoping, and I don't know.
[34:05]I'm just like doing the best I can.
[34:06]But I feel like it's a risk I have to take.
[34:10]And I just, you know, speaking of things that are unfair,
[34:14]this is like, takes the cake.
[34:15]So how can I stay silent?
[34:17]And I hope, I hope it helps in some way.
[34:19]Mm.
[34:20]Mm.
[34:21]Mm.
[34:22]Mm.
[34:23]Mm.
[34:24]Mm.
[34:26]So shifting gears a little bit,
[34:28]but a little bit of a segue.
[34:30]You are a writer.
[34:32]You're an editor.
[34:34]You're a publisher and you're a bookseller.
[34:36]So when you were putting this together,
[34:39]who said to you,
[34:40]because I'm not constantly in a tug of war,
[34:42]very loving tug of war with my editor
[34:45]and my marketing engineer,
[34:48]who says to Zibi,
[34:50]oh, that essay doesn't belong here or doesn't belong in here?
[34:55]Or no, that's not the right title or, you know, like.
[35:00]Who is your editor?
[35:02]So, we have a great team, and Missetti is our publisher
[35:07]and president of Zimimedia.
[35:08]She ran a whole imprint at Pangon Random House for a long time
[35:11]and is like the smartest person ever.
[35:14]And whatever she suggests, I'm like, okay.
[35:17]And she has a really nice way of telling me.
[35:19]She'll be like, I think this essay is good directionally,
[35:24]which means that it's terrible.
[35:27]So she really helped a lot.
[35:32]She was so hands-on with this.
[35:33]Also Kathleen Harris, who's amazing.
[35:35]She's our executive editor.
[35:36]So helpful.
[35:38]Two of them were really, really involved
[35:41]in the editing of it.
[35:42]And that was really helpful to me.
[35:44]Even and Jordan on our team edited it.
[35:47]Also probably five other people on the team read it
[35:49]and gave comments, you know, are a counter.
[35:51]I mean, like everybody gave comments,
[35:53]but I would say Ann and Kathleen are the people who,
[35:56]okay, because you're in a unique position.
[35:59]You're not an indie author by any means,
[36:02]but you've got the whole ball wax right there, you know.
[36:05]No, I always listen to feedback.
[36:07]Like I try not to, you know, go to Rogue, although,
[36:11]I'm like, we're changing the title.
[36:12]We're changing the cover.
[36:14]I don't know.
[36:15]Cross it as well.
[36:15]I've covered his eye and all of that.
[36:17]So she is CC Dunn's.
[36:19]Many of my freakouts.
[36:21]So as latest as yesterday, anyway.
[36:25]Can I just say thank you, those were such great questions.
[36:27]You're such a good one.
[36:29]And Renee's books are for sale up there, too.
[36:34]She is amazing and contributed to the anthology
[36:37]and on being Jewish now.
[36:38]And if you haven't read her stuff, you must.
[36:41]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi,
[36:44]formerly momstone have time to read books.
[36:46]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[36:50]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens,
[36:52]and spread the word.
[36:54]Thanks so much.
[36:55]Oh, and bye the books.