Sona Movsesian on Betraying Her Preconceptions of Motherhood
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
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[0:27]Sona Mavsesean is the author of the world's worst mom.
[0:30]We had the best time talking about this book,
[0:34]our experiences moms, our experience being impacted
[0:37]by the fires in LA.
[0:39]And so much more, I want to be friends with her now forever.
[0:43]Sona is the New York Times best-selling author
[0:45]of the world's worst assistant.
[0:47]And after over 15 years of working with Conan O'Brien,
[0:51]Sona has become a regular feature of all things Conan
[0:54]and a fan favorite.
[0:55]Now she co-hosts Conan's podcast, Conan O'Brien
[0:58]needs a friend.
[0:59]So now lives in LA with her husband and twin sons.
[1:02]And I would argue she's not the world's worst mom.
[1:05]Welcome, Sona.
[1:06]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked
[1:08]to talk about the world's worst mom.
[1:11]Congratulations.
[1:13]Thank you so much.
[1:14]They congratulate me for finishing the book
[1:17]or for being the world's worst mom.
[1:20]Yes, I am congratulating you for beating the world's worst mom.
[1:23]I am thrilled to have found, actually, the person
[1:27]because everybody thinks they are the world's worst mom.
[1:29]But it turns out it's you.
[1:31]I know.
[1:32]I've noticed that when I tell people I wrote this book,
[1:35]they're like, oh, I didn't know you wrote a book about me.
[1:37]And I'm like, no, it's about me.
[1:40]My job's growling out there.
[1:42]Okey, chill out, buddy.
[1:43]It's okay.
[1:44]Now I feel like Okey is the celebrity.
[1:46]I mean, Okey plays a huge part in this book,
[1:50]including the displacement of being a dog
[1:52]when babies arrive.
[1:55]I know.
[1:56]I did write an entire chapter from her perspective.
[1:59]I think that she's our first baby.
[2:03]So there's so much the change about it.
[2:06]She's so chill compared to our boys.
[2:08]And so I thought that it'd be funny if I wrote a wrote a chapter
[2:12]from her perspective.
[2:14]It's funny because I did the audiobook recently.
[2:17]And they said to her a few people who could read as her
[2:22]in our chapter.
[2:23]And I listened to their samples.
[2:24]And I was like, I don't know.
[2:26]This one doesn't sound like Okey.
[2:28]She's a dog.
[2:29]It's just what we think she sounds like.
[2:31]So we found someone who we think she would sound like.
[2:35]Oh my gosh.
[2:36]Okay, well, backing up just to give listeners a little bit
[2:39]of context, this is a second book of yours
[2:42]after the world's worst assistant,
[2:44]which you wrote after being Conan O'Brien's assistant
[2:47]for many, many years.
[2:48]And you carry that through this book in a really funny way, too,
[2:52]about how you basically already had experience being a mom
[2:55]by being an assistant.
[2:57]Yeah.
[2:59]And then you write about what it was like having twins
[3:02]and, you know, diving headfirst into this mother land
[3:08]and how you're surviving essentially.
[3:11]So that catches us up to here of the transition from failing.
[3:17]It worked to failing at home.
[3:20]Yeah, exactly.
[3:21]I mean, pretty much summarized it.
[3:23]I, you know, my last book was about the 12 years
[3:26]I spent as Conan's assistant.
[3:28]And it's the same idea.
[3:30]It's basically, you know, you start out being someone's assistant,
[3:34]especially someone in the entertainment industry
[3:37]with an idea of what proper assistants do,
[3:40]which is they, you know, they give their entire lives to it.
[3:45]They're always available.
[3:46]They've drive themselves to the ground just because they just
[3:49]like need to satisfy this one person.
[3:51]And I never did any of that.
[3:53]You know, there were boundaries set up.
[3:55]And Conan was respectful.
[3:57]And I kind of let my response below.
[4:00]slip everyone's in a while. So, and I think it's the same with being a mom. I mean, you
[4:06]you become a mom and you think this is the mom I'm going to be. This is like my idea of the perfect
[4:14]mom and how I'm going to be that version of a mom. And then you have your kids and you betray so
[4:21]many of the like preconceptions that you have of it. And so that's kind of like the same. I mean,
[4:28]I think that I'm just betraying my ideal version of being a mom the same way I
[4:33]betrayed my ideal version of being an assistant, you know. So, but it's I mean, if I assisted
[4:40]Conan with the same amount of forethought I have and being a mom, I would have crushed it as an
[4:45]assistant. I switched them. I don't even think the first book would have ever been written.
[4:52]Oh my gosh. So, I have to tell you I have twins also. Okay. So, I and I have survived
[4:59]Ganakuad, you know, but they are 19 now. So, I feel like I'm a little bit further down this path.
[5:06]And I can look back on where you are and just be like, oh my gosh, she's going to be so excited.
[5:10]It's going to get so much better. Like, you just have to get through some of this heavy lifting
[5:15]literally physically heavy lifting. And like, it's going to it's going to get a lot easier for you.
[5:20]Do you have two boys, two girls, boy, to girl? I have a boy and a girl. I have boy girl twins who
[5:27]are 19 and then I have a 13 year old girl and an 11 year old boy. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh, no,
[5:33]we were done after our boys. We were just like, okay, that was, you know, we're good. We're
[5:38]fine. I was also 38 when I had my boys and we had to go through IVF, but just something I talk about.
[5:45]Yeah. So when you did go through IVF and you want more kids, it's like the conversation about,
[5:52]okay, now we're going to have to go back into getting treatments again. I have to go back to getting
[5:56]shots and it's going to cost us thousands of dollars to do this again. So, you know, it's,
[6:02]have more kids is always such a conversation when you have, when you have to go through IVF.
[6:09]But even, even if I like had my kids naturally and I had my twins naturally, I don't know if I
[6:16]would have one. I'm just so tired and beaten up literally beaten up. I mean, this is my boys just
[6:25]turned five and I'm like a jungle gym. They just like climb on me and everything they do is
[6:30]aggressive and physical and it, I'm in pain. I feel like I'm just in pain all the time.
[6:39]Oh my gosh. Well, the things that you write about and the expectations of perfection really and
[6:46]you have a whole piece of how you feel about moms and social media. Of course, you do everything
[6:50]so funny, right? You're very clever and how you're, how you structure all these different chapters
[6:54]and occasional illustrations and, you know, my favorites actually were, I'm jumping all over here,
[6:59]but my favorites were you going back in time to talk to the old you who's sitting on the
[7:03]couch and you're like, hey, yeah, watch TV. I'm like obsessed with that. I want to do that with myself.
[7:08]Yeah. I'm like exercise. What did you love to hang out? It's like the 22 year old version of you?
[7:15]Wouldn't that be so fun? I, you know, it was an idea that I had and, you know, I go back in time
[7:21]because I've only been with my husband for 10 years. So I was like, let me just go back 10 years
[7:26]to that version of me right before. And there, there, it's a through line throughout the book
[7:32]where I just kind of keep going back to that well to revisit her and stuff. And, and, you know,
[7:37]obviously I do think that I shouldn't do because I'm like time, time traveling, which does,
[7:42]is never explained. But I was like, what would I do if I went back in time and saw the old
[7:49]version of me and she's doing what, you know, she would do on a Sunday Saturday, which is,
[7:54]she just had some edibles and is binging a show. I would just
[8:00]down and do it with her. Like I wouldn't I wouldn't try to impart wisdom on her. I would just be
[8:04]like, okay, I could take a little break right now. So I'm just going to do with the old version of
[8:09]me used to do. And I just I thought that would be really fun. I'm glad you liked it because I was
[8:15]really excited about that part. I mean, here's parts of it. I was excited to write in some parts.
[8:20]I wasn't excited to write about, but that part I was excited to write about.
[8:25]Well, I like how you also the design. So I'm just holding up the book. The design, whoever did the
[8:32]interior design of this is so brilliant because you have different passages of like the baby's
[8:37]crawling off the page. And I mean, it's like it's so fun. It's such a tangible like, I mean,
[8:44]that sounds like a bad, I don't even know. Final thoughts. You said that goes to Ella Kirky at
[8:48]Penguin Random House. Yeah, yeah, she's very big. And my husband did all the comics, all the art.
[8:55]Oh, who knew? There's a there's an illustration of me where it's my subconscious and it's my
[9:02]subconscious before I had babies. And she's like this like flower child. She's like, you know,
[9:08]got flowers in her hair. And then I said to my husband, I was like, can you do an illustration of me
[9:13]after the subconscious after I have kids and make it look like monster from the substance? And
[9:20]he said, yeah, I can do that. Oh, my gosh. It looks ridiculous. Oh, my gosh. I'm glad you like
[9:31]it. No, totally. You also, so you have a chapter, a lot of this is just super funny and relatable
[9:39]and everything. But you have some poignant moments that I also completely relate to in here,
[9:43]particularly your newfound obsession with mortality and how as soon as you become a mom,
[9:48]that's like, all you can think about. Can I just like read up? Like can I read a paragraph or something?
[9:53]Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. He said, the difference is when I came close to death before I could shake it
[9:57]off because I felt invincible. I don't know if it's because I was young and naive or because I
[10:02]had gotten overly confident from the close encounters I'd had, but it was never a big event when I
[10:06]came out of a potentially dangerous situation unscathed. Do you think I'm going to pick up any
[10:10]hitchhikers now in my minivan? Are you crazy? My post baby brain thinks about dying all the time
[10:15]when I'm driving to work or when I go on a work trip or even when I just have a slight headache,
[10:19]I think about getting a heart attack or getting into a devastating car accident or being in a
[10:24]plane crash. And I think about how my kids will have to grow up without a mom and how my husband
[10:28]won't know what to do because I do everything and how one terrible moment can ruin my children's
[10:33]lives forever. It's a delightful facet of parenting. No one warned me about this is essentially
[10:38]the origin story of how I became uncool. I don't even hike anymore.
[10:45]Thank you. I'm sorry for my dog. She's just growling so much. But yeah, I think I didn't expect,
[10:50]and this is something I don't know if your mom ever talked to you about this stuff. But what I
[10:56]didn't expect is how my brain chemistry changed. And I was a very reckless person before I had
[11:01]kids. I used to do silly things all the time. I used to make bad decisions all the time. And now
[11:08]when I'm out into the world, everything I do, I think about is is this potentially dangerous? And
[11:15]will this make my kids motherless? Which is such I can't turn it off. I can't turn it off.
[11:22]I mean, like it's so all consuming sometimes, you know, and I have to travel for work sometimes.
[11:28]And I have to, you know, drive a lot. I live in LA. And so it's something I think about every
[11:34]time I do something is that, you know, one thing can change and alter my children's lives. And my
[11:41]husband's life's life forever. And it's not anything anybody talked like, it's not a facet of
[11:48]parenthood. Anyone has a conversation with you about it. And so, you know, that whole section you just
[11:55]read is from a part where I talk about how my brain chemistry just changed. And
[12:00]It's almost as if the moment I became pregnant, everything about who I was just changed completely and it's from such a cellular level.
[12:09]And I don't know how to turn it off and I don't know if I can ever like figure out how to turn it off.
[12:14]I mean, maybe when I'm like 80, I'll start picking up hitchhikers again because I'll think, okay, I think the boys are good. They can take care of themselves.
[12:22]I don't know if you know.
[12:24]But it's just it's a really I mean, is it something you think about too mere mom before?
[12:31]I mean, I'm sure it's something you probably think about every time you're out.
[12:34]Yes, but I hadn't read it like from someone else's brain so clearly the way it is in my brain.
[12:40]Do you really like?
[12:42]I'm like, oh, this is exactly how I feel and I worry about risk taking and all these things and then they'll be like,
[12:49]mom, why don't you I don't know if skier or something which no, anyway.
[12:53]I'm like, oh no, I can't afford. I can't I can't risk that.
[12:57]I can't risk this like I literally am taking a different flight from the rest of my family.
[13:02]I mean, I don't usually go to this extreme, but next week I've planned a different flight because I'm just like, there was what there's one kid not on the site and I was like, well,
[13:10]I can't leave that kid with no family. So I'm just going to take a different flight and I'm like, what's wrong with me? What am I doing?
[13:16]What things wrong with you?
[13:19]Nothing's wrong with any of us. We're literally just trying to survive. So we, you know, we spare kids the trauma.
[13:27]It's so it is really, you know, and it's like that's also a bigger conversation. I mean, my husband and I flew together for the first time like a couple years ago when our boys were really little.
[13:39]And I was I said, if this planning goes down, that's it. Our boys are orphans, you know, and so I'm on the tarmac and I'm texting my brother and I'm trying to get my affairs in order.
[13:51]And so I'm saying I'm documenting that I am telling you that you have to take custody of our boys if we die.
[13:58]And my brother who's just at home, you know, on a on a Sunday afternoon, probably like watching football gets this text from his sister about what happens if she and her husband died and he has to take custody of these boys and he's just like, what are you doing?
[14:16]Yeah, makes perfect sense to me.
[14:19]I'm like, I think in a court of law, this text will hold up that I want you to take custody of my children so they don't have to go into the foster system.
[14:29]At least you know someone will be holding it up just being like, look, I have this hat. This is this.
[14:35]Oh my gosh.
[14:38]But then, you know, we go from this point of worrying about the things that we can't control and all of that to then having really terrible things happen.
[14:48]I mean, you, you lost your home and the also denofires like I have a home in the palisades and it's still standing but we're back in. We were out for a year.
[14:57]But of course the whole community is like destroyed and nobody can go through those natural disasters and feel any sense of security, I think again and you, you know, talked about like in such detail too about the loss that you have and all the memories that that house held and having to like lie to your kids, you know, to protect them and
[15:20]and then and having to move forward from that. I mean, talk about that. I mean, it is the most devastating thing that's ever happened to us. And I think that saying that the most devastating thing that's ever happened to use you losing your home and a fire is honestly.
[15:37]This is this is me having a year and a half of perspective now. It is not the worst thing that could happen. And I think that for me, what I think that I'm mourning a lot is, you know that you know I moved out of my house when I was in my 20s that when I went to college and I hadn't moved back.
[15:56]So it was over 20 years worth of stuff that I had that I.
[16:00]accumulated. It's like your house becomes a museum. It's a collection of things that you've collected
[16:05]over the years. And so all of that is gone. And the home that I brought my kids in from the hospital
[16:12]is gone. And like the idea that I had in my head of, oh, I'm going to send my kids off to college
[16:17]in this house. Like this is where my husband and I are going to quietly live our life after our
[16:21]kids leave. All that is derailed. And you're, you're just kind of stuck picking up the pieces. And
[16:28]it makes you an adult. You would think that you're an adult when you have kids, but it makes
[16:33]you have to deal with all these very adult things, like insurance claims and personal property lists
[16:40]and like rebuilding your home. I mean, I've never built a home from scratch. I'm in the middle
[16:45]of it now. And I'm making it up as I go along. And it's a really difficult thing to go through.
[16:50]And then that plus you have these small kids. I have, they were three and a half when they lost the house.
[16:55]So for them one day we were in the house and the next day we never went back again. And so
[17:02]to spare them the trauma, we didn't tell them, oh, the entire community that you we used to
[17:07]walk around and every day is just gone. I, you know, we spared them that. But at the same time,
[17:13]you know, we had to steal deal with it on an emotional level. And I'm a cryer. I cry all the time.
[17:20]I love crying. I don't know how you feel about crying. I love crying.
[17:23]Should we just start doing that? Should we now? I can use my eyes.
[17:29]Kind of a rough morning. So it's a really good morning's a rough morning. And so I just, you know,
[17:35]I think that for me it's it's just been I have to let it out. But I also can't let it out in
[17:42]front of them. I can't just be a crying mess all the time. I have to show some level of strength,
[17:47]which is hard. But it's a, it's a, it's a very bizarre thing to go through. Very few people
[17:55]have gone through something like it. So it's not like you can sit down and have a conversation
[18:00]with someone who's gone with it. You have to like, you know, seek out your neighbors and the other
[18:04]people in your community. And then you can talk about it with them. But it's hard to make other people
[18:10]really fully understand what it's like. Not just to lose your home, but to lose the community that
[18:14]you sort of created through teeny created for your kids on a daily basis. And it was, it was a
[18:21]really difficult thing. It still is really difficult. When I was doing the audiobook, I had to stop
[18:27]a million times just to cry, you know, I mean, I was just going through it crying and, you know,
[18:33]the producer of my audiobook and engineer with both super sweet and generous about it. But
[18:39]it's a really tough thing to go back to to think about. But like I said, if this is the worst thing
[18:46]I've gone through so far, it's, you know, I'm fortunate in a way if that makes any sort of sense.
[18:53]Like, I think about all the trials and tribulations other people go through this is, you know,
[18:59]we we left unscathed. And that's the most important thing. And so, you know, I try to definitely
[19:05]keep it in perspective as much as I can. And you don't have to. I mean, you know, I'm still,
[19:11]I mean, it's still really terrible. And it's completely disorienting to not feel like you have a
[19:19]space in the world. And all the things around you that make you who you are and that, you know,
[19:26]give them anyway. It's, yeah, I think we're all we're also quick to be like, oh, no, no, no,
[19:32]but at least I don't have like this out of the other thing or like, oh my gosh, look at that
[19:35]person. And oh my God, look at on Instagram and like, I'm fine. Everything's fine. And it can be fine,
[19:39]but it can also be terrible. And that's okay too. It is, for me, it is absolutely terrible. But I do,
[19:47]there is this sense of guilt. I feel whenever I talk about how hard it was for me. And I don't
[19:52]know why it's like that. And that's an interesting point that you bring out. I can feel sad that I
[19:57]lost my house and it's okay to...
[20:00]you know, I don't have to justify why I feel sad. And I don't know if it's a personality trait,
[20:05]but I'm like, I'm okay though, I'm okay. There's worse things. I'm okay. But it is awful. I'm not
[20:12]going to lie. I mean, it's so awful and I can't verbalize how awful it is. It's just, it was the
[20:21]most shocking thing I've ever gone through. There's things, you know, for a really long time,
[20:26]I would think about the things that I loved and then I would picture them on fire, which is
[20:31]a horrible image to get out of your head. And it's so permanent. And that's the part that's,
[20:36]that sucks is that everything is gone and it's just permanently gone. And there's nothing I can do
[20:41]about it. And so, but we're managing, you know, we're okay. It's, it's been a year and a half,
[20:47]we're rebuilding. I'm excited about rebuilding, which is nice. But I'm also nervous to go back there,
[20:53]because it's the site of massive wildfire and, you know, it could happen again. And so, yeah,
[20:59]I mean, I'm just kind of, as cliche does it sounds, I'm taking a day by day and I'm just powering
[21:04]through, you know, I have to. There's no other choice I have. Yeah. Well, the whole thing is just so
[21:10]terrible. But I'm glad your house is okay though. I mean, it got hairy in the palisades. No,
[21:17]I mean, on our block, it's just, it just is like luck of stuff. We're just lucky. We just,
[21:22]you know, but it's hard to feel lucky in the community. Yeah, I know. You know,
[21:26]so you're back in the house. So, are you back in the house? We moved in, yeah, we were out for a year,
[21:31]so we moved back in a couple months ago and actually we're flying out. I mean, this will air later,
[21:37]I think, actually, I don't even know, but we're coming out to be there for the opening of the
[21:41]palisades village again, because I'm like, oh, because we're not, how can we not be there? Like,
[21:46]after all time, you know, so yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I think, I think the context that your book
[21:53]provides through all of these things is like everything that we're all going through. Yeah,
[21:58]okay, we can get through it, right? But if we like, can at least talk about it to somebody else,
[22:03]and be open about it and laugh about it or like find a creative way to get through it or,
[22:09]then it's, then it's helpful. And at the end of the day, like all we're trying to do is just like,
[22:14]get a little helping hand through like a really rough day. And that's like what the book is trying
[22:19]to do in so many ways. I hope so. I really do. I mean, it, I'm very lucky in the sense that my job
[22:26]is to laugh. And I work with some of the funniest people in the world. And so I just remember very,
[22:32]very shortly, like a week after I lost my house, I texted everybody at the office and I said,
[22:38]I'm ready to come back to work. I mean, what do I need to do to just come back to work?
[22:41]I'm my cryin between laughing. But I said, you know, it was just, I needed to get back to
[22:50]some semblance of a routine that I knew. And I needed to be around people that made me laugh.
[22:57]And you know, because I know I'm going to cry. I know when I get home and my boys sleep,
[23:02]I know I'm just going to cry. But I needed to also laugh. It's just, it's what we need to do
[23:09]when we go through something really tough. You need to be around people that make you feel good and
[23:14]happy. And so that's, that's what I did. I was just like, bring me back into the studio as soon as
[23:19]possible. I was just like, well, you're like co-host one of the biggest podcasts around. I mean,
[23:24]talking to the most interesting people ever, like, can you do you find you can always sort of
[23:30]shut it off? No, I mean, I think that there's, I don't know. I'm a very in the moment type of person.
[23:38]So when they're having the conversation, when Conan and whoever our guest is or talk, they're
[23:43]talking about something, I am really invested in what they're saying. And so it does take me out
[23:48]of that mindset for a while, which is great, which is exactly what I need. But when it's done,
[23:57]you know, and I'm driving home and it's quiet. And I'm like, listen.
[24:00]listening to music, that's when I, when my mind starts drifting.
[24:03]But when I'm in the studio, I genuinely am just so curious and so interested in what
[24:11]our guests have to say.
[24:12]And so that's, that's kind of something that keeps me engaged whenever we're in studio.
[24:18]So cool.
[24:19]It's such a cool job, by the way.
[24:21]Like, a cool job, right?
[24:23]So, it happened for, you know, I've been with Conan for 70 over seven years.
[24:30]17 years now and it's just, it's never stopped being cool.
[24:33]I think it's because I love TV.
[24:35]I love comedy.
[24:36]I just love being around creative people.
[24:39]And I never, I've reminded myself never to get jaded from it.
[24:44]And I'm so, I'm very, very lucky.
[24:46]I'm saying, all right.
[24:47]What would you want your sons like in 20 years to say about you?
[24:53]I want them to, that's a good question.
[24:55]I've never thought of that.
[24:58]I think that I want them to feel as though I was always a source of comfort.
[25:04]And then I still am always a source of comfort that I want them to be able to openly
[25:09]talk to me about everything.
[25:12]You know, I didn't have that so much with my mom and dad.
[25:15]And so I always want to make sure my kids know they can come to me and talk to me about
[25:20]anything.
[25:21]I want to be sort of a sense, a source of comfort for them.
[25:26]I think that's the most important thing is that I know, I mean, in 20 years, they're
[25:30]going to be 25.
[25:31]And I know, you know, they're going to have gone through heartbreak and they're going
[25:35]to have to go through disappointment and failure and a million other things that are
[25:39]sad and hard and like really test you.
[25:43]And throughout all that, I want them to know that their mom's like a lighthouse, like they
[25:47]can always just come back and I'm always going to be there.
[25:51]I'm always going to have a hug for them.
[25:53]I'm always going to, I'm starting to cry.
[25:56]I think that's just what I want.
[25:59]I want them to know that I've always loved them and that they, I want to make sure that
[26:05]they always felt that love.
[26:06]I think that's the most important thing.
[26:08]You know, even though I, you know, messed up a bunch, but I never want them to feel
[26:14]like they weren't loved.
[26:16]Oh my God.
[26:17]I got through the whole conversation about my house burning down without shedding
[26:23]a tear and I'm thinking about a 25 year old Charlie and Mikey and all of a sudden I
[26:27]lose it.
[26:28]I just, I'm a mess.
[26:30]So this is my daily cry.
[26:33]We're good.
[26:34]Now I feel good.
[26:35]Good.
[26:36]I'm so, you know, you can just put man's speed.
[26:38]We can just do this.
[26:39]I'll just, I can't help you get it out every day.
[26:40]You can like boom, boom, back, back to what you have to do.
[26:44]Oh, that's great.
[26:45]We'll do it.
[26:46]It's my sash and just get right back to it.
[26:50]Exactly.
[26:51]So, Donna, thank you so much.
[26:52]Thanks for sharing.
[26:53]Thanks for helping.
[26:54]Thanks for being so you and so honest and funny and open and just like the real deal
[26:59]because like life's too short and we just, we can't just, we just have to be who we are.
[27:04]I don't know.
[27:05]That's sort of where I am in life.
[27:06]Thank you so much for having me.
[27:07]Thank you.
[27:08]Bye.
[27:09]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi, formerly momstone after time to read
[27:14]books.
[27:15]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[27:20]and spread the word.
[27:22]Thanks so much.
[27:23]Oh, and bye the books.