Margie Lachman, PhD, PRIMETIME: A New Vision for Midlife
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[0:27]Margie Lachman, PhD, is the author of Primetime,
[0:31]a new vision for midlife.
[0:33]Dr. Lachman is the mini and herald fireman professor
[0:37]of psychology at Brandeis University
[0:39]where she directs the lifespan lab,
[0:41]a leading expert on adult development and aging.
[0:44]Lachman is one of a small group of scholars
[0:46]who study midlife from a lifespan developmental perspective.
[0:50]Lachman was a member of the John D. and Catherine T.
[0:52]MacArthur Foundation Research Network
[0:54]unsuccessful midlife development,
[0:56]which launched the landmark midlife
[0:58]in the United States study, M-I-D-U-S.
[1:01]She is a co-investigator on M-I-D-U-S,
[1:03]Midas, and several other projects,
[1:06]exploring cognition, health, and well-being
[1:08]in midlife and later adulthood.
[1:10]At Brandeis, she teaches courses on adult development
[1:12]and aging and lifespan psychology.
[1:15]Welcome, Margie.
[1:16]Thank you so much for coming on totally books.
[1:19]I cannot wait to discuss all the benefits
[1:23]of midlife and the opportunities
[1:25]and your basic rebranding of the whole.
[1:28]The whole time of life.
[1:29]Would you say that's pretty accurate?
[1:31]Yes, that's the goal here.
[1:33]So thank you so much for having me.
[1:35]Of course, why don't you share with listeners
[1:37]what your book is really about
[1:39]and what your work is about in the Brandeis longevity lab
[1:42]and all the work that you do.
[1:44]Yes.
[1:45]So I am interested in adulthood and aging
[1:49]and about 30 years ago,
[1:51]I got interested in midlife per se.
[1:54]Many of us realize that we knew a lot
[1:57]about early adulthood and later adulthood,
[2:00]but there was this big gap in the middle
[2:01]and we knew very little about it.
[2:03]And we started a longitudinal study
[2:06]with thousands of people, a nationally representative sample
[2:09]that we've now followed for over 30 years
[2:12]to try to understand what makes some people thrive
[2:16]and do well throughout adulthood in later life
[2:18]and why some people don't do as well.
[2:22]So you talked to so many people.
[2:26]Obviously, you also talked to so many authors.
[2:29]I feel like I kept reading and I was like,
[2:31]well, Catherine Newman was on my podcast
[2:33]and I love Mitch album
[2:34]and you just kept dropping in all of these really
[2:36]inspirational people and the ways that midlife
[2:39]has affected them, the way they've handled,
[2:41]you know, new opportunities were great.
[2:44]Like so many big concepts.
[2:46]Why don't we start with regret, by the way,
[2:47]because I think that by the time we get to midlife,
[2:50]there's a perception of, oh, well,
[2:53]I guess I should have done that with my life,
[2:54]but I didn't.
[2:55]We can talk about the midlife crisis
[2:57]and how it isn't a crisis at all as well.
[3:00]But let's start with regret.
[3:01]Sure.
[3:02]So you mentioned that I included different people's stories.
[3:05]And so some of the stories are people that you would know
[3:08]and others are really anonymous people who I know,
[3:11]who I thought really illustrated some of the points
[3:13]that we wanted to make in the book.
[3:15]So the interest in regret certainly surfaces in midlife
[3:20]because people when you come to the middle of anything,
[3:23]I think you start to look back and look ahead.
[3:26]And it's a really a natural time to start thinking about
[3:30]whether or not you have met your goals
[3:32]and what you have done and what you still want to do.
[3:36]And so I think that's why regret may really surface a lot
[3:40]in midlife because people feel, is this all there is
[3:44]or I had so many things that I haven't accomplished yet.
[3:47]I think the important thing to keep in mind
[3:50]is that there's still a lot of time left.
[3:53]You're at the middle, I mean, the halfway point
[3:55]and you have just as much time left,
[3:57]but people don't necessarily realize that.
[4:00]They sort of think I should have everything figured out
[4:03]and everything accomplished what I reached 40 or even 50.
[4:07]Well, I know you mentioned that your mother passed away
[4:10]when she was 43 and I'm so sorry to have read that
[4:13]that she had gotten a copy of the book like Life Begins at 40
[4:16]or whatever it was called.
[4:17]And then within three years she had sadly passed away
[4:21]and so she never got to live out this time.
[4:23]It's probably no surprise that you're dedicating yourself
[4:27]at this time of life that she never got to live.
[4:29]So sad.
[4:31]Yeah.
[4:31]So I mean, that last chapter where I talk about that
[4:34]is sort of poignant and brings tears to my eyes
[4:36]and other people's eyes.
[4:37]But in some ways, I think it really did set me out of course
[4:42]where I really appreciated getting older
[4:44]and being able to experience midlife.
[4:47]So it was a long time ago and it still hits home.
[4:51]So sure.
[4:52]Oh my gosh.
[4:53]So when you say we have so much left, like I have to knock
[4:57]wood, like we hope we have so much left.
[4:59]That's right.
[5:00]And we have to make decisions as if we have more time left
[5:04]than we think but also live as if it could be closer to the end.
[5:08]So why not try these things now?
[5:10]Yeah.
[5:11]That is a really good point.
[5:12]So we really don't know how long we're going to live.
[5:14]And so when people want to know when it's midlife,
[5:17]people think, oh, it should be the real halfway point.
[5:19]But we can't know the real halfway point
[5:21]because we don't know how long we're going to live.
[5:24]And so yes, I think there's sort of a balance
[5:26]between realizing that statistics or the odds
[5:29]are that you will have plenty of time left.
[5:32]But there are always problems that can arise
[5:35]and not everybody does make it past midlife, of course.
[5:39]And so in that sense, you don't want to miss out on the here
[5:44]or now and you've got to really focus and enjoy
[5:48]and do the best you can every day.
[5:50]And maybe some people would say, and I think
[5:52]I could agree with this, that you know,
[5:54]live each day as if it's your last day.
[5:57]I think that's reasonable.
[5:59]I know we really need a new name.
[6:01]I know people joke all the time about rebranding midlife.
[6:04]But if we don't even know if it's the middle, right,
[6:07]it's we need like a post adolescence adulthood time
[6:12]where we can where it sounds fun.
[6:15]Like the reinvention life stage or something.
[6:20]Well, I mean, I think of it as middle, not just
[6:23]in terms of chronological age, but also in terms
[6:26]of where you are in your family and the workplace.
[6:30]So you're in the middle really.
[6:32]People are younger than you and older than you.
[6:34]And so that is really the essence of midlife.
[6:37]In my view more so than whether it's 40 or 50.
[6:40]And so that's what really I think people
[6:44]need to focus on from midlife is that you're really
[6:47]in such an important period of life, not only for yourself,
[6:50]but also for those around you,
[6:52]you really are important and many people are counting on you.
[6:55]So in that sense, being in midlife really
[6:57]is different than just how old you are.
[7:00]It's really being in the middle of many people in your lives.
[7:04]What I found really interesting, well,
[7:06]I found a lot interesting about your book,
[7:07]but this whole notion of personality not being a constant
[7:10]and how it can change and adapt and grow,
[7:14]especially during this period of time.
[7:16]And what the impact of that is.
[7:18]Can you talk a little about that?
[7:20]Sure.
[7:20]Yeah, what's really interesting for me
[7:23]is as I was studying personality for many years,
[7:26]we originally thought psychologists really
[7:29]originally thought it was pretty staple from early adulthood
[7:34]for the rest of your life.
[7:35]And that it was essentially, quote unquote,
[7:38]set in plaster, which is what people
[7:41]would write about personality.
[7:43]So the fact that many people started to think
[7:46]about whether personality could in fact change
[7:49]and followed the same people over time
[7:51]in longitudinal studies, we were able to see
[7:53]that even naturally people will change.
[7:56]People tend to become less neurotic as they age in general.
[8:00]They become more conscientious.
[8:03]And so there are other changes as well.
[8:05]People become more agreeable as they age.
[8:07]So those are sort of the natural changes.
[8:09]But people may decide they want to change.
[8:13]Many times you think you're too introverted.
[8:16]You want to be more extroverted.
[8:17]You want to be more social.
[8:19]And so you can.
[8:21]You can just change your behaviors
[8:22]because essentially personality is what's defined
[8:26]as what are your thoughts, behaviors, and feelings.
[8:29]And so if you tend to be more quiet
[8:32]and not socially engaged, that's something
[8:35]you can easily change if you really want to.
[8:37]So interesting.
[8:39]You include a whole portion of the book
[8:41]about the behaviors that we engage in
[8:44]and the way we take care of our health now
[8:45]how this will impact us in our 70s and 80s and beyond,
[8:49]which is like I was like I need to hang like rip this page
[8:52]out and like put up my bulletin board or something
[8:54]because this is an ultimate reminder that I should be exercising
[8:58]and I should be doing all these things that I am not doing.
[9:02]And I you don't say it in a shaming way
[9:04]but you say it and like look at the research
[9:07]and this is what you should be doing now.
[9:08]So what are some of the most important things?
[9:11]Yeah.
[9:11]So this is so important.
[9:13]The investments that you make in midlife,
[9:15]pay big dividends later on.
[9:18]And it's a little difficult to tell people in midlife
[9:21]you got to do more.
[9:22]You got to do more because they're already so busy
[9:24]and I don't want to shame people or make people feel like
[9:27]you have to do so much else.
[9:29]But there are ways that you can do things
[9:32]to improve your health.
[9:34]And so the research really shows that being active,
[9:38]we all know that physical activity is important
[9:41]and there are many different ways you can get physical activity,
[9:44]even a little bit of physical activity, taking walks
[9:47]and not necessarily by yourself.
[9:49]You could take a walk with your family.
[9:50]So you can sort of incorporate this exercise
[9:54]into everyday life if you want.
[9:56]But the research shows that those people
[9:58]who are physically active.
[10:00]and even cognitively active stimulating cognitive activities like reading, for example,
[10:06]those people live longer, but they also are less likely to get cardiovascular disease or cancer
[10:13]or dementia. So there's just so many things that happen. So what you do in midlife,
[10:19]I like to say it doesn't stay in midlife. It really does have long-term impact.
[10:25]Wow. And talk a little bit about the importance of relationships and connectivity and community
[10:31]and all of that. Yeah. So many, many studies have shown how valuable social relationships are.
[10:39]Being connected tends to be one of the most important factors for psychological well-being,
[10:45]but also physical health and even cognitive health. Now, the trick here in midlife is that
[10:51]it's many people are counting on you and you are pulled in so many different directions with so
[10:56]many demands and responsibilities. So I like to think of it in terms of generativity that this is
[11:03]really good for you is being there for other people. You have accumulated a lot of wisdom and knowledge
[11:09]and experience and other people who are younger can really benefit from that. So if you look at it,
[11:15]sort of in the positive way of transferring what you've learned and your experience to other
[11:20]people, I think that's a very positive end of things. But what we also find is that it's really
[11:27]important to balance the giving and the receiving. In fact, there's some studies that show people
[11:32]who have balanced, they live longer than people who are more likely to just give, give, give.
[11:38]And I think sometimes in midlife, the balance we do know we've actually seen the research shows
[11:44]in midlife people tend to be giving more support and assistance than they receive. So hopefully
[11:51]it balances out not necessarily at every point in your life, but at some point it's maybe
[11:57]the tables can turn and you'll be able to reciprocate and other people who are reciprocate.
[12:03]And what is it about this period of time that you find so fascinating, that you've dedicated
[12:07]your professional career towards? Yeah. So I think one of the things that really drove me to
[12:13]writing this book is that I was so disappointed in surprise to see how negative the connotations
[12:21]and associations are with midlife. So many people have negative views of midlife. And I think a lot
[12:28]of that is because they associate middle age with aging and aging is something that we in our society
[12:35]don't value and we have negative views of aging, unfortunately. So I think a lot of the negative
[12:42]associations with midlife are really tied to the fact that people feel they're getting old and
[12:46]that their time is running out. But when we look at the research and we see that people are
[12:52]actually doing pretty well in midlife, you know, people, there's variation obviously. There's some
[12:58]people who are not doing well, but like at every age, it's, it's nothing unique about midlife
[13:04]for some people doing well and some people not doing well. But I think it's such an opportunity
[13:09]used what you've accumulated, knowledge not only for growing yourself and potentially going
[13:16]in your directions, but also for using that valuable experience and knowledge for helping other people
[13:22]who are in need of help, people who are younger, who look to you for your support. So you're on a
[13:28]college campus. Do the kids their care about this time? Like I feel like when I was younger,
[13:34]midlife felt so far away. So yes, this is an interesting question. I will say that the enrollment
[13:41]in child development courses is three times as high as the enrollment in the courses on adult
[13:46]development at aging. But one of the things that I've done in recent course seminar is I said
[13:53]this is a course on early and middle adulthood. So that sort of got them interested because it was
[13:59]about them and their parents. But what's interesting is I think a lot of the students realize that
[14:06]aging is a growing field literally more and more older people and that there are a lot of careers
[14:11]associated with aging. So even in my course where I focus on aging, my enrollments have actually
[14:16]increased and I think they think about their grandparents and they think about not necessarily
[14:23]their own old age, but they have a lot of negative stereotypes about aging and midlife. And so
[14:30]I love being able to teach them and they come out thinking, they always say how now they have
[14:36]much more positive view. I hope that's true and I hope that plays out in their everyday lives.
[14:41]Knowing what you know now about midlife, if you could go back and do this all over again to getting
[14:46]to this point, would you change anything about my own midlife? Yeah. Yeah. So I think I did suffer
[14:53]from some of the issues that I identify the book like being on sort of automatic pilot and
[15:00]doing things mindlessly and just in order to be able to do my career and raise children,
[15:07]I didn't necessarily give a lot of thought to what I was doing and when and did I exercise as
[15:12]much as I should know? Did I eat as healthy as I would like to know and could I redo it now?
[15:19]Not necessarily. I mean, I look at people who are in their 40s and they are really busy with raising
[15:26]kids and they would like to be able to exercise, but it takes a lot of discipline getting up early
[15:32]or staying up late or figuring out how to do it. So I guess, you know, I really loved midlife and
[15:39]I sort of love being after midlife as well. I don't think necessarily things have gotten different
[15:46]for me that I feel unlucky that I feel healthy and things would go in well. So I must have done
[15:51]something right here with my friends. Okay. So if you could give anyone one, like the most important
[15:58]thing, the most powerful way to look at this period of time differently or the behavioral change
[16:04]that's most important, just something that when they turn off this podcast, they're going to go
[16:08]back to their lives and do or think or internalize what would it be? Yeah. So I think I have to
[16:13]start by saying don't expect a midlife crisis. Everybody does. I mean, it's just this sort of
[16:20]automatic response that people have. I'm going to have a crisis. So don't think you're going to
[16:23]have a crisis and focus more on the gains than the losses and think of midlife as opportunities.
[16:30]There's so many opportunities in midlife. When you are in midlife, you have a lot going on,
[16:37]there are many different things and you're not necessarily able to think about long term of things.
[16:44]You're dealing with everyday kinds of things, but it really is a chance for you to grow further
[16:51]and to think about what you want to do in the future. You have plenty of time. You have half of your
[16:56]life left as we talked about earlier. Not everyone knows when they're good. No one knows when they're
[17:00]how long they're going to live, but the fact is that the chances are you have a lot of time left.
[17:05]I think it's merely important that we recognize there are losses with age, whether it's
[17:10]cognitive losses, physical changes, social changes. You lose important people in your lives,
[17:16]but yet there are also so many gains. I like people to really focus on the gains,
[17:21]like gains and self-confidence. People really feel more comfortable in their own skin, so to speak.
[17:28]People self-esteem is at a high point. You have the experience in the knowledge to use it not
[17:34]only for your own journey, but also for the journeys of those who are younger and older in your
[17:39]lives. Amazing. Well, Margie, it was so nice to be connected to you. I'm very inspired by your
[17:45]book. When I was growing up, my mom always used to say that her 40s were her best decade, and
[17:50]she stands by that. Although, actually, my dad says his 70s are his best decade, so who knows?
[17:56]It just keeps getting better. Well, that's very interesting. I don't know if we really have time,
[18:01]but I just want to say that in our study, when we ask people in their 40s and 50s, what age would
[18:06]you like to be? What's your ideal age? 70% of them say 20s or 30s. Nobody, very few, I should say,
[18:16]say 40s or 50s. However, when people get into their 60s and 70s, a substantial number of people
[18:24]still not 100%, but more like 25%, 30% will say that their 40s were the best period of life. So,
[18:31]as you get older and you look back on midlife, you may see it as more positive than you do when
[18:36]you're in midlife because 90% of the people in our studies say that they would like to be
[18:43]younger than their age. Yeah, I would not. I may be a couple years, but I'm happy here.
[18:50]You're part of the 10% then. I'm part of the 10%. Okay, well, thank you so much for your time.
[18:56]Thank you so much. It's hard work. Okay, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Take care. Bye-bye.