Ashley Kahn, DAYS OF MIRACLE AND WONDER: Paul Simon and the Trials and Triumphs of Graceland
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors.
[0:18]The best-selling and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and that the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy. Ashley Kahn is the author of Days of Miracle and Wonder, Paul Simon, and the
[0:31]Trials and Triumphs of Graceland. Ashley is a Grammy award-winning music historian, author,
[0:37]and producer. He co-wrote Carlos Santana's autobiography, The Universal
[0:41]Tone, and has written books on such legendary recordings, as Kind of Blue by Miles Davis and
[0:46]A Love Supreme by John Coltrane. He was a member of the Graceland Tour Production Team
[0:51]and Tour Manager for Lady Smith Black Mombaza. He teaches at New York University's
[0:56]Clive Davis Institute for Recorded Music. When I interviewed him, he was sitting on a beautiful
[1:01]balcony overlooking Italy, and I was so jealous as I was recording from my basement,
[1:07]talking to him. But I was really interested because I absolutely adore
[1:11]about Simon's music. Graceland happens to be my husband, Kyle's number one favorite album.
[1:16]And I remember so well when Graceland came out and how often I listened to it and my family
[1:22]listened to it. And this book has the backstory I never knew. So listen in.
[1:28]Welcome, Ashley. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Book to talk about days of miracle
[1:32]and wonder, Paul Simon, and the Trials and Triumphs of Graceland. Congrats. My pleasure.
[1:37]Thanks for having me, Sammy. Graceland. I mean, I'm sure you'll hear this 8 million times
[1:42]as you talk about this book, but Graceland is one of my favorite albums. And I grew up listening to it
[1:47]and just love it. Still listen to it. It's like my husband's favorite album. So the idea of a
[1:53]book written all about the backstory of it sounded totally intriguing to me and did not disappoint.
[1:58]So thank you for showing us what happened and how it came to be.
[2:03]Well, thanks for that quick review. You can use it. And you're right. I mean,
[2:12]again and again, everyone who I talked with, even if it wasn't someone I was interviewing
[2:17]for the book, but they want to know what are you up to? What are you working on? It's one of
[2:22]the most loved and cherished, you know, mementos of the 1980s. It's such a positive piece of music.
[2:31]The whole album is really. And it was very refreshing. It really stood out from, you know, all the
[2:37]synthesizers and the hair bands and the MTV look and feel and sounds of the 1980s.
[2:47]It was a breath of fresh air. There was this mix of authenticity and newness and this exotic
[2:55]these exotic sounds that were somehow familiar at the same time.
[3:00]Well, what I didn't realize until reading the book is that even though Simon and Garfunkel had
[3:05]been such a big deal, that Paul Simon's prior album had not been such a hit. And that just like
[3:11]in the book world to have something come out, which like doesn't have that greatest of a track,
[3:16]it can be really detrimental to your future endeavors. That's right. I mean, you know, the
[3:22]the the the general feel of an artist who is within the, you know, working within the worlds of
[3:29]rock and pop in America, that once you hit your 40s, you know, your best material, your best days
[3:37]are behind you. And this this album came out of nowhere, came out of the blue sky and proved
[3:45]everyone wrong. And again, and again, I'd find these quotes where people talk about the generational
[3:53]aspect of music and how this defied all of that. And, you know, as I said, the very end story
[4:03]that I offer in the book is a friend of mine, witnessing the fact that you can call me out, the hit
[4:11]single off of Grace, then had this impact on high school kids. And they knew the base break,
[4:19]the famous base break in the middle of it. And it just blew his mind that there was that kind
[4:26]of awareness. But yeah, it penetrated all parts of society, all, you know, countries and
[4:34]generationally, it had a reach. And you show us in the book too just where that met the underlying
[4:43]came from, how it was a cassette tape. I also didn't realize, by the way, that I mean, I grew up
[4:49]making mix tapes and didn't even think twice about it, that that was like a huge deal for the
[4:53]music industry that they were so against mix tapes, which sounds so obvious, like obviously,
[4:59]you know, but from the user standpoint, we just thought it was helping all the music by getting it
[5:04]out there even more. So anyway, you take us from the mix tape era to tracking where the music
[5:11]came from and then having full time and go to South Africa, telling us about the journey,
[5:15]finding the performers. I mean, it's really quite fascinating.
[5:19]So be thank you. I mean, listen, this was like one of those onions where you just keep peeling
[5:25]back the layers. And there's more and more stories to tell that that is great. And that makes
[5:33]for a book worthy, you know, topic, but then how do you structure it? How do you make sure that it
[5:39]makes sense and it flows? And the pages want to turn on their own, et cetera, et cetera. So taking
[5:46]that whole multi-level story and translating it to a book, that was a challenge. And I'm happy to
[5:55]say that, you know, in the way that I was compartmentalizing certain topics, I think I managed to do
[6:03]it so that, you know, you could throw yourself in there for, let's say, 10 or 12 pages. And then
[6:09]you get a whole, then that whole angle is taken care of and then you move on to something else.
[6:15]But the idea of giving equal opportunity, equal focus, you know, to the technology of the time,
[6:23]to the role of, you know, world music and the coming of African music into, you know,
[6:29]there was an American awareness, suddenly of all these different countries and performers from
[6:37]those kind of King Sunny Ade and Phala Kooti and Yousu Endur. And all of this was kind of
[6:44]laying the groundwork so that Graceland was unusual, but it wasn't that strange. And I make that
[6:51]statement towards the end that Africa was normal, that there were African bands touring in the late
[6:58]80s and 90s through the United States with the same regularity and same consistency
[7:05]as American rock bands, as American, you know, folk bands, etc., that suddenly Africa was normal.
[7:14]Do you think that this was like the beginning of a trend or an original trend? Like,
[7:21]I think about music today and some of the controversy when things like, like, wasn't the
[7:26]vanilla ISIS song used for the basis of another song. And now I'm listening to Tracey Chapman's
[7:31]Fast Card and my kids are like, who's Tracey Chapman? And I'm like, are you kidding me? Like,
[7:35]how do we feel about the sort of appropriation, essentially, of different music to become new again?
[7:43]Well, there's two questions in there. One, you know, the first that I'm going to answer is simply
[7:50]the idea that I was very aware that even the word like apartheid and what was going on politically
[7:57]in South Africa and the kind of mine fields that Paul Simon stepped into in order to make this album
[8:05]and how he tried to check off every box to get it right. You know, that I realized that there's
[8:14]a generation today that needs all the stuff explained and in a way that is kind of just laying it
[8:23]out there with a non-judgmental, you know, and I try to stay away from judging on the controversial
[8:30]aspects of Paul Simon, but rather, you know, kind of just delivering the information and allowing
[8:37]the reader to make up their own mind and explaining the controversy. The other part of your
[8:43]question, of course, is it never ends. The whole idea of musical appropriation,
[8:49]this musical celebration, what is an appropriate collaboration, what is an inappropriate use or misuse
[8:58]or, you know, not borrowing, but almost stealing of someone of another culture's music.
[9:05]And those are questions that I addressed as well.
[9:09]I'd rather not say exactly where I fall on all of that except to say that music always
[9:18]wants to be shared and music always is attracted by other music. It's inevitable, you know,
[9:26]but there is this idea of cultural appropriation that reflects the inequality of certain
[9:35]that played into the controversial aspect of Graceland for sure. I will, however, quote,
[9:42]this is during the, you know, I was trying to trace the influence of Graceland and how Graceland
[9:49]was being looked at in the years long after the 80s and 90s and during the BLM period.
[10:00]of the of the teens. So this is now about 10 years ago. There was an article on
[10:07]in the New Yorker magazine that discussed vanilla ice, that discussed Justin not just in Tim
[10:15]Lake, Macklemore, and Iggy Azalea and their kind of appropriation and the fact that they were
[10:22]calling themselves the king and queen of hip hop and their white, you know, and the inappropriateness
[10:29]and then they mentioned in that article they also mentioned Grayson. This at Graceland is an
[10:35]example of how to do it's right compared to all of these inappropriate things that we're going on
[10:42]at that moment. So interesting. Wow. Yeah. It's a never-ending thing, by the way, Zippy,
[10:49]you know, the cycles through our pop culture again and again and again. I've been asked, you know,
[10:55]should the controversial aspect of Graceland always be there with the album. And my answer is
[11:02]absolutely yes, if it raises, because it raises the right questions and it brings into the conversation
[11:11]an example of someone who is really trying to do it in the right way. And, you know, so there you
[11:17]go, that's that's my opinion. I just slipped out. It slipped out. Yeah, you couldn't help yourself.
[11:24]What are you most hoping people get out of the book? Is it people who love Paul Simon and want to
[11:29]learn more? Is it? Are you trying to expose new people to him without music? Like, tell me about that?
[11:34]What do you, what are your hopes and dreams? Sydney, there's really only one answer. My, my,
[11:39]my goal with this book is to get people back to the music. I want them to enjoy the story,
[11:46]enjoy the read, but if they go, you know, to whatever musical source they're using Spotify or
[11:53]final or whatever. And they, they're tracking Graceland again and listening to it with a deeper
[11:59]understanding and appreciation. Woo hoo. I've been successful. That's what I want is to connect them
[12:07]back to the music. Amazing. How did you become interested in the music world in the beginning?
[12:14]You know, stinking the radio under the covers and listening to, you know, pop radio, circa
[12:22]1968, 69 and 70, you know, when I should have been sleeping, you know, and then in college,
[12:31]I never, you know, I played guitar, but I never really allowed myself to pursue music making
[12:38]as a career. And yet I was always drawn to it. And so my participation in music really began
[12:49]when I was, when I realized I want to be there witnessing artists and audience meeting, i.e.
[12:56]live events. And so I got involved with live events. I was one of only three people on staff
[13:04]there's some amazing series, the seven called Central Park Summer Stage. So my, my entree really
[13:13]was with ladiesmith black ombasa. And so which I don't mention by the way, it's not part of the book
[13:20]except at the very end. There's a kind of reveal at the end that yes, I actually had a personal
[13:26]and professional connection to this whole phenomena. And I don't want to make too much of it. It's
[13:32]on my story. This is the story of Graceland, the album, Paul Simon, the tour, the whole phenomenon.
[13:40]And then I come in at the very end and say, oh, by the way, do you have a favorite
[13:45]Paul Simon song? Well, I'll go to Graceland. I mean, the kick off tune, the boy in the bubble
[13:54]is just amazing. The lyricism, the way that the words dance on his tongue, you know,
[14:01]under African skies. But the one album, sorry, the one tune on the album that has everybody on it.
[14:10]So it's almost like that final thing that happened. So the Saturday Night Live, everybody comes
[14:16]together and they're singing together diamonds on the soles of their shoes. You know, for me,
[14:22]is just, you know, it speaks to that whole idea of community and involvement and everyone on an
[14:31]even keel contributing, et cetera, which runs so counter to everything that's happening politically
[14:39]right now. So I don't want to get too much in that direction. But it, you know, we need that same
[14:45]breath of fresh air that I was describing before. And so going back to this incredible moments,
[14:52]at an incredible moment in time, because you think historically of what happened from the time
[14:59]that Graceland was released and then the tours began through the late 80s into the 90s. And I mean,
[15:07]everything from the Berlin Wall coming down to the end of apartheid in South Africa. Some was
[15:14]shining at that point for a moment, you know, and suddenly there was hope. And there was a
[15:21]very, very positive wind blowing across the planet. Who do you think is if there is one, the
[15:29]past time in of the music world today? That's a good question. I mean, the thing is that Paul Simon
[15:38]had this amazing consistency. And every, I mean, almost a mightest touch. And whatever it was
[15:47]that he tried to do and whatever style, he excelled at it. And, you know, so someone who has that
[15:55]same ability in this to take a song and all the elements of a song and craft it in the studio
[16:04]and come up with, you know, this three and a half minute or five minutes slice of musical Nirvana.
[16:12]I don't know. You know, I do listen to a lot of newer music today as well as, you know,
[16:20]the classics as well as jazz. I'm a real jazz guy too, you know, I have to admit. But who would
[16:28]be the modern day Paul Simon? You know, I think about that the New York Times top 30 songwriters
[16:36]of our day and how misguided so much of that was. And yet there is this effort to want to acknowledge
[16:49]who's pushing the needle, you know, who's really, you know, pointing the way forward
[16:56]for the idea, the great American song. And I wish I had an answer. Nothing is coming to mind right
[17:05]now. But, you know, for some people, it's going to be Taylor Swift. And God bless them. Because
[17:12]boy does she put out a lot of stuff. And everything she touches has that connection and that
[17:19]popularity. I'm not a Swiftie. I'm sorry. I'll admit that for now. But I do have respect for,
[17:27]you know, what she has created. And that again, it's that idea of community, of connection. And
[17:34]you just have to look at like the success of the year is store. So maybe it's Taylor.
[17:40]Yeah. And congrats on the marriage. Exactly. Exactly. Well, Ashley, thank you so much for this
[17:47]very interesting read and conversation. I really appreciate it. And I am going to play
[17:52]Graceland in my car, picking up my kids now and try to get them on board at the next generation
[17:59]my my my small contribution. All right. Perfect ending. Okay. Thank you so much for having me really.
[18:08]It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Enjoy. Enjoy the enjoy wherever. I'm have fun. Okay. Bye bye.
[18:14]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi formerly momstone have time to read books.
[18:19]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens,
[18:25]and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and bye the books.