Dara Levan, SHAKEN TO THE CORE

[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.

[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.

[0:03]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show and learned endless amounts about

[0:09]storytelling, reinvention and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really

[0:13]talking about life.

[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors, the best-selling and the not yet discovered.

[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.

[0:24]Enjoy!

[0:26]Darla Van is the author of Sheiken to the core, a novel.

[0:30]Darla and I have become friends over the years through seeing each other in Florida.

[0:36]Of course through books, she contributed to Aunt being Jewish now and wrote a beautiful

[0:41]essay for Aunt being Jewish now.

[0:43]She is an author, founder of Every Soul has a story, an inspiring podcast in which she interviews

[0:49]guests from around the globe and her award-winning novel It Could Be Worse already came out

[0:55]and she was on my podcast to talk about that.

[0:58]She's a graduate of Indiana University with a bachelor's degree in English and one

[1:03]of her selling points is that when I really needed a charger at the Miami Book Fair, Darla

[1:09]was so sweet, lent me hers and then the next time I saw her in New York, she bought me

[1:14]my own portable charger in my favorite color blue.

[1:18]And anyway, I just adored Darla and so does basically anybody who meets her.

[1:21]I hope you enjoy our episode together about Sheiken to the core, a novel.

[1:26]Welcome Darla.

[1:27]Thank you so much for coming on totally booked to talk about Sheiken to the core, your

[1:32]latest novel, congrats.

[1:33]Thank you.

[1:34]Thank you for having me.

[1:35]Of course!

[1:36]What a beautiful story.

[1:37]Oh my gosh, so many themes.

[1:39]Talk about what Sheiken to the core is about.

[1:42]It's about a couple, I'll tell you about, I mean, joy is our main character and she's

[1:48]a photographer, as we all have in marriages, we kind of have a contract, right?

[1:52]They never wanted kids or so we think that her mom dies suddenly and she discovers her

[1:58]mother's camp journal from the 1980s and one entry inspires her to make a decision that

[2:05]changes his trajectory of her life.

[2:07]But at the same time, this happens, Andre, her husband receives devastating news.

[2:12]So it's a story really of holding hope and heartbreak at the same time.

[2:17]And also a story about sudden loss, which is a very special kind of loss as you know also.

[2:23]We all experience loss and no matter what type of loss it is, it's horrific but there's

[2:28]something about not being able to say goodbye and especially when it's your mother.

[2:32]So in the book, as you said, there's a contract that they had both agreed that an actual

[2:37]contract, but they had both Andre and Joy had agreed that they weren't going to have kids

[2:41]and after the loss of Joy's mom, she says, you know, she's thinking about legacy and

[2:47]what might come next and who is going to inherit and who's going to take care of them

[2:51]and own stuff.

[2:52]And she says, why doesn't a party of two feel like enough anymore?

[2:55]And she says this in a letter that she writes to her mom as a way to process the loss,

[3:01]which I found really interesting is like a mechanism that you did throughout the book.

[3:04]Talk a little bit about that.

[3:07]About the party of two?

[3:08]About the party.

[3:09]Okay.

[3:10]Start with a party of two and how we can make decisions and then everything gets thrown

[3:15]up in the air and we can change our minds and are we not allowed to change our minds?

[3:19]Exactly.

[3:20]Talk about that.

[3:21]And on top of that, I'd add that I intentionally wrote these characters as they didn't

[3:27]want for anything.

[3:29]There is so much in society, which I think we both probably have experienced where, oh,

[3:35]they're an amazing marriage and they were and they are and they don't want for anything

[3:40]financially.

[3:41]So everything must just be perfect.

[3:43]It's anything but nothing's perfect in life, nothing.

[3:47]And so she has this yearning in her heart, in her womb and one of the, you know, she has

[3:52]to try and renegotiate with what they had agreed upon.

[3:55]They lived a very free spirited life.

[3:57]They traveled the world.

[3:58]He's an architect, very much in control.

[4:01]The oldest of five boys, her his parents are constantly saying, when are we having bambinos?

[4:06]Why aren't they here yet?

[4:07]And there's a reason that the reader will find out that's pretty shocking.

[4:10]Another reason why they don't.

[4:12]It might not just be what they agreed to, it might be what's actually possible.

[4:16]And that's also what the novel and the story explores is what is possible.

[4:20]Not just after loss, but we get to choose the life you want to live.

[4:24]We get to continue to, we navigate and I believe and I think joy learns that sometimes

[4:31]really big detours, even devastating detours can actually become our destiny, beautiful.

[4:37]Talk about where this came from in your life.

[4:39]Very personal.

[4:40]It's probably speaking of process and grief.

[4:42]It's probably the first time I've really, really sat with this.

[4:46]My husband's mother, Terry, and I went anywhere because I believe that's how we keep

[4:51]people alive.

[4:52]She died suddenly six months before our wedding and I was at my best friend's grandmother

[4:57]Shiva when I got a call that she was gone.

[5:01]And she was a sick.

[5:02]No.

[5:03]What happened?

[5:04]That's the one thing I really can't share just because I didn't expect my husband's family.

[5:09]But it was, it was, it was, it was really literally an unbelievable, I'll tell you offline

[5:15]and I still can't run my head around it.

[5:17]I had to grow up so fast, Zibi.

[5:18]I was just 24.

[5:21]I had to go home and tell him, and my parents came up, it was, I still can't believe

[5:25]it happened and yet, because we didn't get to say goodbye.

[5:28]Yeah.

[5:29]And you know, I think we've done Stacey, right?

[5:30]I mean, there's something, it's just, and then also as the partner as, I was just like,

[5:36]baby, I was in graduate school for speech therapy.

[5:39]I didn't know from this, I hope nobody knows from this.

[5:43]And I felt so strongly that I had to be strong, hence the name of some, what, for my first

[5:49]novel, it could be worse.

[5:50]I kept thinking, well, it's got to be worse for him and his siblings.

[5:53]So I just held it together, I plan the Shiva, even then my new details that we never think

[5:58]about like cleaning out her car and finding her red lipstick that was always all over her designer

[6:02]bags.

[6:03]She was an interior decorator.

[6:05]Her world was about making things beautiful and not from a superficial space, but from

[6:10]such a heart-centered space.

[6:11]In fact, before our wedding, she insisted on throwing this engagement party.

[6:17]That was so lavish in Coral Gables and we kept saying, Terry, this is ridiculous.

[6:21]We don't need this.

[6:22]Thank God she did.

[6:23]She was gone a few months later.

[6:25]I have pictures with her and I'm the only one that knew her over my husband is the youngest.

[6:31]We got married first, we had kids first and somewhat like joy, it changed my entire perspective.

[6:36]When we first met, it was all about my career and I want to travel the world with you and

[6:40]I don't want to have kids who were like 35 and we looked at each other and I thought

[6:44]nothing else matters and we had our time or my son with the two, lots.

[6:51]And she shows up again and again and again, every birthday, every Shiva, only her own

[6:59]mother passed several decades later, which as you know is so out of order, she was only 52

[7:03]and she died.

[7:04]I'll be 52 next month.

[7:05]So I'm waiting for the rainbow, I know she's coming and I know she, I believe when we

[7:14]speak about people and we share their stories, not just in writing but orally and thank

[7:18]you for asking, we keep people alive and it's up to us, the living and it took me, I don't

[7:26]even know if I'll ever process it because my husband, his family, they were so numb, we

[7:31]stood in front of over a thousand people speaking about her and in some ways I don't know how

[7:37]to quite articulate this and I tried actually I'm wearing her bracelet today, she wore this

[7:43]constantly and I really felt like as his partner, I had to just be this wrong one and how

[7:51]could I have these deep feelings for someone I didn't even know for two years?

[7:55]Why do I deserve to feel that pain?

[7:58]But as someone who's really empathetic, how could I not, I mean he has paid his my pain

[8:03]and that's somewhat of a joy experience as to, there's no limits, there's no right or wrong

[8:12]in terms of pain, you can't say, oh I shouldn't feel this because I'm not really related

[8:18]or I'm not, there's so many ways to justify away love, love is love and when you care about

[8:23]somebody and you lose them, it's impossible, it's impossible, open heart almost like

[8:28]childlike, anyone would tell you to know her for a day was to know her for a lifetime,

[8:33]no filter just gave with her whole soul almost impulsive and thank goodness it's like

[8:38]she knew her life would be cut short, much like Joy's mom, and Joy didn't get to say goodbye,

[8:45]it was writing the book, therapeutic for you do you feel like you process more of it,

[8:49]and I think too it's, I was so worried, in fact I'll never forget, under the Hupa,

[8:58]you could see me mouthing, I didn't care what I look like, I kept saying it was hair

[9:02]guy, I don't, I don't even make up, I need to be with my fiance husband in five minutes

[9:07]and you could see me under there saying are you okay, I was so worried about him and that's

[9:12]part of what we explore here in the story too, it's these tragedies and the news that

[9:18]Andres gets and much much more can rip you apart as a couple and we were that much closer

[9:24]we've lost so many people since then, I mean, I'm too young to tell you that I lost 12 or 13

[9:28]people, is recently is my uncle just passed from Parkinson's a few months ago, and you know,

[9:37]I people often say to me, but you're always so happy, I said no, I choose Joy every single

[9:43]day and I choose my husband and I believe that to me is everything and it doesn't mean

[9:48]it's perfect, I think that's like that toxic positivity and that's not who I am, it's that

[9:53]it's a choice in seconds that could have ripped us apart, I mean, we talk about that recently

[9:59]and it's just...

[10:00]And we've had sicknesses and all kinds of other things that, you know, people would be shocked people that know us know everything, but as I'm sure you learn to, you know, people make presumptions and that's part of what the story is. I mean, there's a mention he has a Rolex, you know, they don't want for anything, but it doesn't matter how much money you have, or there are people that have not a penny, but they have the most welcome the world because they're full of love.

[10:26]And so I really hope that readers also take from this, I think it's probably human nature to see life through the lens through which your lived experiences are and joy of being a photographer, it just wasn't enough for any more taking pictures of children and families.

[10:44]And yet she finds another way to become a mother. So one of the biggest questions this story is asking and exploring is, does motherhood and mothering transcend biology? Do you really have to grow a child in your room to be a parent?

[10:58]And that's up to the reader to decide that I know how I feel.

[11:03]Well, Joy also decides to pursue this new-ish dream that she gets, but she just goes for it.

[11:10]And it's so great because I feel like in this post-traumatic grief moment when you're like, let's make life matter and there's no time like the present.

[11:20]And Joy makes a decision which, of course, basically, you know, dictates the whole second half of the book of doing something that she doesn't know anything about, but she's doing it in part and up to honor her mom.

[11:32]But in part because it just feels like the right thing and I'd love when she's just like, didn't know what I was doing, but mom, guess what I did.

[11:40]You're never going to be, I figured this out and look at this. And isn't that great? I mean, I know there are no great things about loss at all.

[11:47]But the attitude that she can attempt anything at any point in life is really inspiring.

[11:54]That's it too. I'm glad you felt that. And also battling a bit with her husband. He's, yeah, you know, he's a love.

[12:00]He's a kind. He's so supportive, but he's dealing with his own Michigas, his own stuff.

[12:07]And he's like, you think you could do this. And of course, he was terrified, but it also talks about chosen family and Mel, her best friend is a jeweler. I think she's a riot.

[12:17]I tend to fall in love with the sub characters. I don't know why.

[12:20]Like for me, I love Mel. I love Dave. There's kind of, you know, there's a character where I hope it's inferred sometimes grief makes you feel weird things.

[12:30]And question yourself in the kind of a murky lens through which we are trying to heal. And also, you know, this home moving forward, I don't believe that you move forward. I think you carry it with you.

[12:43]You know, I'm not in a sad way, but talking about my husband's mother. I mean, I tell people this all the time. She taught me how to live by how she lived.

[12:52]And just like when we have people in our lives who, just who we don't want to be, I always tell my children that if they come home and say, oh, so and so.

[13:00]I say, well, great. That's a model for how you don't want to be. And that's something there too.

[13:06]I also brought in my speech therapy background. I think you saw I don't want to ruin it. Yeah, that's right.

[13:12]But I did that last time as well. And there's a child in the spectrum. If you know, you know, and I don't believe in labels, but I do believe in inclusion.

[13:19]And I think it's really important. And I'm not seeing that as much in fiction as I'd like some,

[13:24]I'm hoping to teach their fiction about different kinds of speech language learning differences.

[13:29]I don't know. I think in the difference one person can make. I mean, she makes joy makes such a difference.

[13:35]And she doesn't even realize this one little choice, right? Yep.

[13:38]You just never know where you could crack a door open. And I feel like when something's really scary, you're on to something.

[13:46]I don't know. If it terrifies me, that means I'm supposed to do it. I don't mean jumping on it like an airplane. I don't get carried away.

[13:52]But I mean cognitively or emotionally, I feel.

[13:55]Gosh, I'm supposed to be doing this. I don't know why yet, but that will reveal itself. Yeah.

[14:00]No.

[14:01]And I think even back to the letters for a second, because I feel like that is my joy was at her most sort of bra and expressing like, oh, my gosh, my ins are staying here for too long. Oh, my gosh,

[14:12]it's kind of being in us a little bit. I mean, all the things that maybe people think and don't feel comfortable staying,

[14:19]or they only tell a close friend or somebody, but when her close is coming on is not there to tell, we get to be the beneficiaries.

[14:27]And in a way, it's almost licensed to express the things that maybe don't feel so beautiful on the outside,

[14:33]but are natural to feel at some point or another.

[14:36]So I feel like giving her that outlet was so key. Thank you. And then I, the seasons, I feel we all have seasons.

[14:44]And there was a lot of, I hope it was clear, I don't know.

[14:48]But a lot of metaphor about, she was wintering. She was hurting and fall.

[14:53]But I always think about fall as a Floridian. I'm still fascinated with fall.

[14:58]I just think it's the most glorious time, but if you really think about it, it's death.

[15:03]It's like the one time I think I wrote this in here, the death is beautiful.

[15:07]It's, and yet the leaves are dying.

[15:10]So if we think about our lives transitioning, whether there's different kinds of deaths too, right?

[15:15]There's a physical loss. You lose a parent, a friend, a sibling, a guy for any of any.

[15:21]But I also believe there's a loss of identity and that's what's going on with kind of both of them in some ways.

[15:26]And so I think what people should consider or ought to explore in their own souls is,

[15:34]loss isn't just a physical loss, it isn't just a loss of a person.

[15:38]It didn't be the loss of the life you imagined.

[15:41]They didn't expect this, any of it.

[15:44]And so we can choose to recreate our lives, we can choose to pivot,

[15:49]we can choose to swallow and sit in it, whatever someone chooses, that's their choice.

[15:53]And she chose, I think, a little bit of everything.

[15:56]And I felt that her, she was real too.

[15:59]She didn't just hold it all back and everything's perfect because it wasn't.

[16:03]And yet they're still incredibly madly in love and super attracted to each other and still living with such full force.

[16:11]Yeah, you had some steamy or seem to hear.

[16:13]Oh, it tastes like, okay, here we go.

[16:17]I was not expecting that.

[16:19]Hey, I wasn't either.

[16:21]Oh my God, it's funny you say that because I'm sure you've heard this from the amazing millions of authors will like over 2000 interviews.

[16:29]I'm probably like 2001 everyone.

[16:31]Thank you.

[16:32]It's interesting because I used to hear authors always say, oh, my characters just tell me what to say.

[16:37]And they write themselves and I hear these voices and I always want to say, you need to psych about.

[16:42]And now I understand because those scenes I stepped away few days and I came back and I said,

[16:48]I didn't write that.

[16:50]I was like channeling like some download.

[16:52]I don't even know.

[16:53]Oh my gosh, my kids last time they're like, mom will read the book.

[16:57]We are not, we picture you and dad.

[16:59]That is not me and dad.

[17:00]Dad is not Colombian.

[17:01]He's not six, three.

[17:02]You matter what you do, right?

[17:05]Do people say that to you?

[17:07]Oh, I know that's you or that's so and so.

[17:09]It's not.

[17:10]It just happened.

[17:11]I get it.

[17:12]I get it.

[17:13]Oh my gosh.

[17:15]Oh my gosh.

[17:17]Okay, so who is, who is like your, the best reader for this book?

[17:20]Who needs to look up today?

[17:22]That's a great question.

[17:24]I think anyone struggling with what life is throwing at them, which is maybe everyone,

[17:28]but really anyone that's experienced loss in all its forms.

[17:32]And also maybe I would say women, there's something about your 30s and 40s.

[17:36]At least it was for me.

[17:37]There's so transformative that are also tough.

[17:40]I had a lot of curveballs thrown at me as well.

[17:42]Like health loss, you name it, miss carriage.

[17:45]I mean, and I feel and I hope that this gives people the strength and

[17:52]the inspiration to know that they can do anything truly.

[17:55]It may take time.

[17:56]It's going to take healing.

[17:58]It's going to take a ton of heart and hard work.

[18:01]But I really believe that we all have the well inside of us from which

[18:06]should draw even when we feel we're totally empty.

[18:10]I really do.

[18:11]So I hope this really touches people and helps to help inspire them to live a

[18:16]life that they choose.

[18:17]Not just what's expected.

[18:19]I am inspired.

[18:20]I'm inspired.

[18:21]Let's go come to the world.

[18:22]All right.

[18:23]I love the art.

[18:24]I'm so excited about that.

[18:25]Congratulations.

[18:26]They're a shoe into the core.

[18:28]Congrats.

[18:29]Thank you.

[18:30]Thank you.

[18:31]Thank you.

[18:32]And these are the green.

[18:33]This was an excellent question.

[18:34]Thank you for listening to totally bucked with Zibi.

[18:39]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.

[18:42]If you loved the show, tell a friend.

[18:44]Leave a review.

[18:45]Follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens.

[18:48]And spread the word.

[18:50]Thanks so much.

[18:51]Go and buy the books.