Anna Johnston, WHEN LEMONS GIVE YOU LIFE
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked. I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy! Anna Johnston is the author of When Lemons Give You Life,
[0:29]which I have selected as my September book club pick. So if you would like to
[0:33]talk to Anna and ask her some questions in our Q&A session, please sign up.
[0:37]It's at zibimedia.com. Would love to have you.
[0:41]Anna Johnston lives by the beach in Melbourne with her husband and daughters.
[0:45]She left medical school to develop an award-winning cooking program for older,
[0:49]widowed men before following her heart into her grandfather's nursing home, where she worked
[0:53]as the activities coordinator. She is the author of the International Bestseller,
[0:57]The Barrowed Life of Frederick Fife, which has news of a screen adaptation.
[1:03]Welcome, Anna. I'm so excited to have you on totally book to talk about when Lemons
[1:07]Give You Life. Congratulations. Thank you so much for having me.
[1:11]I know I saw you recently at our most anticipated event, and at that point I had started
[1:17]but hadn't really gotten into the book, but I already knew I was going to love it, and now
[1:21]I have had time to finish it. And as you know, I am like over the moon,
[1:25]I'm picking this for a book club pick. I could not stop reading it,
[1:29]and I haven't stopped talking about it. So congrats. I love it. Thank you so much.
[1:35]Why don't you tell us sinners what it's about?
[1:37]So it's about a retired Michelin star chef called Griff Barlow.
[1:41]He's now retired and he's living in a nursing home, and basically wanting to depart this earth.
[1:48]But he's determined that his last meal will not be the beige slop that they serve
[1:53]at the nursing home. So he breaks into the kitchen there to cook himself one last lemon tart.
[1:59]The act of cooking stirs a long dormant joy,
[2:03]and he begins sneaking in regularly after dark and sort of coming back into the world
[2:09]and the land of the living one played at a time.
[2:12]Meanwhile we have his younger half sister Lisa, who is his sole visitor.
[2:17]They haven't really a strange relationship, but she still visits him beautifully.
[2:22]And she's navigating an ADHD diagnosis, the spark of a new romance,
[2:27]and you know, hope of reconciliation is long gone,
[2:31]but when souffles and second chances collide,
[2:34]they may just discover the recipe for redemption.
[2:37]Oh, love that.
[2:39]There are so many twists and turns in the book that I wasn't expecting,
[2:44]and that kept taking my breath away and got me flipping pages.
[2:48]It's hard to pull off things like that in fiction,
[2:52]especially more character driven fiction, which is what your book I feel like is.
[2:56]It's all about grip and how he's feeling and his circumstances.
[3:01]And by the way, it's also about food and you must be the best cook because wow.
[3:06]Just tell from your descriptions that you must be the best.
[3:10]How do you think as you were crafting the book?
[3:13]And I don't know if you had all these twists in mind when you started,
[3:16]or if they came as you went, but how did you go about even just the plotting of this story?
[3:21]Because it became very intricate.
[3:24]Yes, so I love the, you know, the twists and turns of crime,
[3:29]but I will always write in the sort of more uplifting feel-good space.
[3:33]So my goal with both of my books has been to combine these genres.
[3:38]So to give readers those, those twists and all of those page-turning elements.
[3:44]That while it's a feel-good story.
[3:46]So I haven't really seen a whole ton of books in that space.
[3:50]And so I really wanted to combine those two.
[3:53]So, you know, I've really tried to use a crime kind of plotting structure.
[3:57]But with those feel-good uplifting elements, it took a whole heap of post-it notes
[4:02]and many, many structural edits.
[4:04]It had an existential crisis.
[4:06]We got there in the end.
[4:08]Oh my gosh.
[4:09]Well, one of the, the reds of the story is life in nursing homes.
[4:13]And I understand that you worked in nursing homes.
[4:16]It's after you've got a medical degree.
[4:18]Tell me a little bit about that and how your experience has shaped this narrative.
[4:22]Absolutely.
[4:23]So yeah, when I was about halfway through medical school,
[4:26]I really felt drawn to work in aged care and, you know, in prevention,
[4:31]rather than treatment.
[4:32]We were seeing so many lonely older people and the effect that that had
[4:36]not only on their mental health, but their physical health as well.
[4:40]And I was so lucky to enjoy a really close relationship with all four of my grandparents
[4:46]and my great-grandfather lived with us.
[4:48]And I ended up, yeah, doing public health.
[4:51]And I developed a cooking program for older widowed men,
[4:55]which was a big source of inspiration for the books.
[4:58]So these men arrived at the program really lonely and isolated,
[5:03]barely eating or surviving on toast.
[5:06]And what began as a really practical course became something more profound.
[5:11]So as the men began to cook, you know,
[5:14]they would share stories of their childhood kitchens and Christmas dinners
[5:18]and recipes their wives used to make friendships were formed.
[5:22]And they began regaining a sense of agency.
[5:27]So they would go to the supermarket,
[5:29]you know, cooking requires you to choose ingredients to sort of have that control.
[5:33]And then what happened was the men began hosting the family Sunday roast again,
[5:39]something that their wives would have once done,
[5:42]making muffins with the grandkids,
[5:44]and food became a way back into the world for them.
[5:47]And that was what I wanted to explore here.
[5:50]After that program, my grandfather Fred was diagnosed with dementia,
[5:54]and he was my best friend in the whole world.
[5:57]And so again, I changed careers and I took a job as the social support coordinator
[6:02]in his nursing home so that we could spend more time together.
[6:06]And it was there that I found my real passion.
[6:09]I loved working at the nursing home, but also what would become.
[6:13]I didn't know at the time the setting for my two books.
[6:16]So, you know, I've had quite a varying experience in age care
[6:21]and caring for a lot of people with varying stages of dementia.
[6:26]And so he's gently lied on that. He's also something unpassionate about.
[6:31]Oh my gosh, well, that is so beautiful.
[6:33]And how lovely to have done that for your grandfather.
[6:36]So nice.
[6:37]I know you also talked about how it was hard for him to be separated
[6:41]and then in the authors know you talked about your, your grandmother as well.
[6:45]And you know, just one of the many injustices of sort of aging and in this way.
[6:50]Absolutely.
[6:51]Sounds like you've identified and pursued many areas of reform and not just the food,
[6:57]but the way to treat the elderly with respect, as you said in the book.
[7:02]They're like, these are the people who are inventing everything and fighting our wars
[7:06]and doing all the great stuff.
[7:08]Why at the end of their lives should they be treated to bland food and this terrible exit?
[7:14]Absolutely.
[7:15]And, and ageism is one of the few things that, you know, we're discriminating against our future selves.
[7:22]If we're lucky, if we're privileged enough to grow old.
[7:26]And so, yeah, I always think about, you know, how would I want to be treated when I'm older?
[7:31]And what food would I be wanting to be served?
[7:34]And yeah, I'm really hoping the book sparks and discussions in this area.
[7:38]So interesting.
[7:40]Go back a little bit to Frederick Faith, which I know is going to be a Netflix show, which is so exciting.
[7:46]Tell listeners about that book as well.
[7:48]So Frederick, five, the character of Fred was based on my grandfather who was the kindest man in the whole world.
[7:54]He's kind of really changed the lives of those around him.
[7:58]And so, yeah, the character was based on him.
[8:01]It's about a case of mistaken identity.
[8:04]That gives a desperately lonely old man a second chance of being part of a family.
[8:09]So, yeah, that was my, my debut.
[8:12]And yes, amazing.
[8:15]Before you got into writing.
[8:17]Like, how did you teach yourself how to do this writing fiction, writing novels like this?
[8:22]I see where the inspiration for the characters obviously came from.
[8:25]But how?
[8:26]How did you even know what to do with the Post-It?
[8:29]My love of writing came from when I was five years old.
[8:34]And rather than play with Barbies or Lego, my best friend and I would spend hours and hours writing plays and performing them for our very patient parents.
[8:43]And so that kind of gave me this love of storytelling and a lifelong involvement in community theater.
[8:50]So that really gave me a good kind of framework.
[8:53]But then during the pandemic, I decided that I would do a couple of creative writing courses, just some casual online ones with the Australian writing center.
[9:03]And that was a wonderful way of learning how to, you know, have the structure that will hold up a hundred thousand words in a novel, which as you know is hard.
[9:13]And it also, you know, introduced me to other aspiring authors and they've just been a wonderful support.
[9:20]We have a writing group and, you know, we give each other feedback.
[9:24]And so that really helps in in shaping the novel.
[9:27]Amazing. And I feel like Australia has the best writers. I mean, every novel has this like wit and empathy and like it's like evolve somehow gotten the memo of like had to live life most, most meaningfully or something.
[9:43]What is going on over there?
[9:45]Maybe there's something in the water.
[9:48]I'm not sure. Yeah, I think Australian culture is generally very empathetic and kind and obviously not not everyone.
[9:55]But I know, yeah, a few authors as well that do try to capture that.
[10:00]and they're writing amazing.
[10:02]Sibling relationships, family of origin,
[10:04]how it affects us going forward.
[10:06]All that also plays a big role here.
[10:08]Tell me a little bit about how you thought about
[10:12]some of the more difficult parts of Lisa and Griff's childhood
[10:16]and how that came about or how you decided to depict it.
[10:21]Yeah, absolutely.
[10:22]So obviously they have a very fractured relationship.
[10:25]In all of my research, I interviewed people
[10:28]that had similar backgrounds to Griff and Lisa.
[10:33]It's not my own lived experience.
[10:35]And particularly with Griff,
[10:36]I feel one of the greatest privileges as an author
[10:40]is to step into someone else's shoes
[10:42]and to have that opportunity and to do so
[10:44]with empathy and curiosity.
[10:46]Obviously Griff is gay.
[10:49]And that's not my own lived experience.
[10:51]And when this character came to me,
[10:53]I was hesitant, can I write this?
[10:56]But I spoke with my publishers and some queer author friends
[11:00]and they really encouraged me to do so,
[11:02]but to do so and really research it.
[11:06]I was really lucky to have a queer sensitivity reader
[11:09]that helped me understand Griff so much more
[11:13]than I could have alone and all of his background
[11:16]and some of the things that he might have been through.
[11:19]And they actually encouraged me to rather than pull back
[11:22]to dig deeper, to really highlight these issues
[11:26]and through that I learned even more about the issues
[11:29]that older queer people face,
[11:31]that many of them go back into the closet
[11:34]when they enter care because they're afraid
[11:37]of discrimination from the staff or the residents.
[11:40]And that just absolutely broke my heart
[11:43]to think that you at the end of your life,
[11:45]particularly people of this generation
[11:48]that have gone through so much that they would have to do that.
[11:51]And so all of these interviews and talking to these people,
[11:55]I was so, so lucky to do that
[11:58]and that really informed and deepened the backstory
[12:01]of these characters.
[12:03]Oh, I just love them.
[12:04]Did you have trouble narrowing down
[12:06]what to have the featured foods be?
[12:09]Well, I had to do a lot of taste testing
[12:11]like I was in a central part of research.
[12:13]I recommend writing a book out of shit.
[12:15]You can just eat all of this amazing food.
[12:18]Some of my favorite dishes are included in there.
[12:21]I'm a huge fan of food.
[12:23]I'm a master chef fan.
[12:26]So it was, yeah, it was a really fun world to explore.
[12:29]And yes, certainly got to do a lot of cooking and tasting.
[12:32]So it was great.
[12:34]It was amazing.
[12:35]Oh my gosh.
[12:36]What, and you referenced the chef, I think Maggie Beer
[12:40]and the work that she is doing,
[12:41]advocating for better food
[12:43]and other conditions in nursing homes.
[12:45]Can you talk a little bit about her?
[12:46]I hadn't known too much about her until your book.
[12:50]Absolutely.
[12:50]She's a beloved Australian chef.
[12:52]She's now in her eighties.
[12:54]And she's over the last few years,
[12:56]she's developed a foundation that is doing some wonderful work
[13:00]in the age care space.
[13:01]So she did a documentary called Maggie's Big Mission,
[13:05]which is a wonderful documentary
[13:07]where she goes into a nursing home for a couple of months.
[13:10]And she sort of teaches the chefs,
[13:12]like she totally shakes up the menu,
[13:15]teaching the chefs to really the importance of like
[13:18]making things from scratch and having real food
[13:20]and eliminating these processed foods,
[13:24]also asking the residents what they want
[13:26]and even involving them a little bit in some of the cooking.
[13:30]And then she measures the outcomes at the end,
[13:32]but yeah, at the moment she's got a huge education program
[13:36]going on for chefs in age care.
[13:38]And it's just, it's so wonderful to see
[13:41]that documentary came out.
[13:43]When I think I'd like finish my first draft
[13:45]and I was so excited because I'm like,
[13:47]this is exactly what I'm talking about.
[13:50]So yeah, she's wonderful.
[13:52]Oh, I love that.
[13:53]Wow, after I read it, I wanted to help, right?
[13:57]It's hard to read this and not want to help knowing
[14:00]how pervasive this problem can be
[14:01]is from under our noses.
[14:02]Like how can we make like better
[14:04]for the whole aging population?
[14:08]What can the average person do?
[14:10]Who maybe is inspired by reading this book
[14:12]or hearing about this book and thinking,
[14:14]gosh, you know, I wouldn't want to have terrible food
[14:17]or terrible care or people who aren't treating me
[14:19]the right way.
[14:20]And I might be this in this situation.
[14:22]My family might be in this, you know,
[14:23]how are my friends?
[14:25]Like, what can we do?
[14:26]I think a simple thing is, you know,
[14:28]for the older people in your life
[14:30]is to help them connect, remain connected to who they are.
[14:36]And for each individual that will look different.
[14:39]There's, you know, an example in the book of Gladys
[14:42]who's this older lady who's lost her sight,
[14:44]but she was the cook of the family.
[14:46]She loved making cakes and, you know,
[14:48]that was so much a part of her identity.
[14:51]And when she enters age care,
[14:54]she's given no option, no access to cooking of any form
[14:58]and the, you know, the daughter brings in like a Costco mug cake
[15:03]and things that will be enough.
[15:05]But Groof sort of sees beyond that.
[15:07]And he helps her cook this, you know,
[15:09]really special Serbian apple cake for her husband.
[15:12]And so that helps her to reclaim her identity.
[15:16]My grandfather was, you know, a beautiful word Smith
[15:19]and he was such a romantic
[15:21]and being a loving husband was such a big part
[15:24]of his identity, but when he entered care, again,
[15:28]you know, no one was helping to support him
[15:31]in that aspect of his life.
[15:33]So I would sit with him and, you know,
[15:35]I would help him to write these cards to her.
[15:38]And the handwriting was in mind,
[15:39]but the love was him was his.
[15:42]And that's a way of, you know,
[15:44]helping people remain connected to who they are.
[15:47]So if you have an older person in that, you know,
[15:50]in your life, have a look at what they, you know,
[15:53]what do they enjoy doing that they can no longer do?
[15:56]Are there creative ways of connecting them to those things?
[16:00]Whether it's cooking or writing letters
[16:02]or, you know, having a specific role in the family,
[16:05]because I think as we age so much can get lost.
[16:09]And as you enter care, you sacrifice so many things
[16:12]that you just take for granted.
[16:14]And nursing homes, obviously,
[16:16]you have to focus on, you know, medical care
[16:19]and medications and all of those things.
[16:22]But some of the other things, like keeping a person,
[16:24]you know, with their identity,
[16:26]I think it's the greatest form of dignity.
[16:29]And so helping, yeah, helping older people to do that.
[16:32]Do you ever miss the medical world?
[16:35]No, I don't know.
[16:37]I just, working in the nursing homes,
[16:39]like I'm a really old soul.
[16:41]So working in the nursing home for me
[16:43]was just bliss like I just, you know, I love it.
[16:46]And now I'm a full-time author
[16:47]and I've really enjoyed revisiting, you know,
[16:51]older characters and older settings.
[16:54]Yeah, as part of my work now.
[16:56]Do you have a third book in the works?
[16:58]I do, yes.
[17:00]It's called The Last Milkman.
[17:02]It's not set in a nursing home,
[17:04]but it does have an older protagonist.
[17:05]And it explores, you know, why returning to a human pace
[17:11]is so important in a world
[17:13]that is just getting faster and faster and more instantaneous.
[17:17]So, yes, that will be a lot of fun to continue on.
[17:21]Like that, very intriguing.
[17:23]Yes. What advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[17:26]My advice is to write the first draft
[17:30]without looking back, just get it out there
[17:33]and finish it.
[17:34]Do not stop to edit crows or grammar,
[17:37]because that's like icing your cake batter.
[17:40]Mm. Once the story is there,
[17:44]then you have something to shape,
[17:46]but if you keep on stopping and, you know,
[17:48]try to make everything perfect,
[17:50]you won't get it done.
[17:51]So just get it out there.
[17:54]It can be messy and it doesn't matter.
[17:56]Oh, my gosh.
[17:57]That's a great line.
[17:58]I sing your cake batter.
[18:00]Yeah. That's perfect.
[18:01]That's just perfect.
[18:02]Oh, my gosh.
[18:04]Sometimes you just want the cake batter to be gone
[18:06]and move on to the next cake.
[18:07]So, you know,
[18:08]exactly.
[18:09]You can hide it with something.
[18:10]Exactly.
[18:11]Totally.
[18:12]Wow.
[18:13]Are there any authors who have really inspired you
[18:16]along the way?
[18:17]There's, yes, there's so many.
[18:19]I love the work of Mike Gail, the British author,
[18:23]obviously Frederick Beckman, Rachel Joyce,
[18:26]but even authors that I have met,
[18:28]like even other debut authors,
[18:30]or authors in the early stage of Zebekaria,
[18:33]Emma Gray, you know,
[18:34]I tend to her all the time online.
[18:37]And yeah, it's just so wonderful
[18:40]because I really find the author community
[18:43]just lift each other up, you know,
[18:45]in some artistic pursuits,
[18:46]everything is really cutthroat,
[18:48]but everyone just seems so lovely
[18:51]and so willing to support each other,
[18:53]which is beautiful.
[18:54]That is beautiful.
[18:56]Well, Anna, thank you so much.
[18:58]I'm so excited that we'll talk to Book Club about this
[19:01]in September,
[19:02]because this comes out in August.
[19:03]And when Lemons gives you life,
[19:06]I just literally my neck hurt.
[19:08]I didn't move for so long reading the book.
[19:10]I don't know.
[19:11]It was like embarrassing.
[19:12]I think I have to get a massage now.
[19:13]Anyway, you gotta get a massage.
[19:16]Congratulations.
[19:18]Great job.
[19:18]Thank you so much for having me.
[19:19]I'm so thrilled to be here.
[19:21]I have good room.
[19:22]All right, take care.
[19:23]Bye.
[19:24]Bye, Anna.
[19:25]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zebie.
[19:28]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[19:30]If you loved the show,
[19:31]tell a friend,
[19:32]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zebie Owens,
[19:36]and spread the word.
[19:38]Thanks so much.
[19:39]Go and buy the books.