Dr. Lucy Kalanithi, WHEN BREATH BECOMES AIR (10th Anniversary)
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy.
[0:27]Lucy Kalanithi is the widow of Paul Kalanithi,
[0:31]who is the number one year time's best-selling author
[0:35]of When Breath Becomes Air.
[0:37]Lucy wrote the epilogue to the book.
[0:39]And Lucy wrote the epilogue to the book.
[0:42]She is a clinical associate professor of medicine
[0:45]at Stanford University
[0:46]and a leader in patient-centered care.
[0:49]A Yale School of Medicine graduate, she trained at UCSF
[0:51]in Stanford, and is a fellow of the American College
[0:54]of Physicians.
[0:55]When Breath Becomes Air, which came out in 2016,
[0:58]was nominated for the Pulitzer Prize
[1:00]and translated into more than 40 languages.
[1:03]Lucy is an award-winning podcast host of Gravity
[1:05]and has appeared on NPR, PBS NewsHour,
[1:07]and in major publications.
[1:09]She lives in the Bay Area with her daughter.
[1:12]I read When Breath Becomes Air when it came out,
[1:15]like I'm sure many of you did,
[1:16]and if you haven't, you absolutely must.
[1:19]I was so moved by the book.
[1:21]It's been one of my favorites for so long,
[1:24]and I've been following along with Lucy's journey
[1:27]in bits and pieces as I could along the way.
[1:31]This time, I decided to reread the book 10 years later
[1:34]because sometimes rereading is just so interesting, right?
[1:37]We're all at different points in our own lives
[1:39]when we encounter the text.
[1:42]It was just as moving as it was the first time.
[1:44]This time, I listened to most of it on audiobook
[1:47]and read the rest, which was a really unique experience as well,
[1:51]which I highly recommend.
[1:52]When Breath Becomes Air is not just about one doctor's
[1:59]contending with his own mortality,
[2:01]but it is about literature, the meaning of everything
[2:05]that we all do every day and so much more.
[2:09]And it's short.
[2:11]Give it to your kids.
[2:12]I mean, not like your little kids,
[2:14]but share it with your, I don't know,
[2:16]college age kids and above.
[2:19]It's about medicine, patient care, people care.
[2:23]And it is something that we just can't forget,
[2:27]just like we can't forget the legacy of Paul Clonathy.
[2:31]Enjoy our conversation.
[2:32]Welcome, Lucy.
[2:33]Thank you so much for coming on totally booked
[2:35]to discuss when Breath Becomes Air by your late husband,
[2:39]Paul Kalanithi, congratulations.
[2:42]Thanks for having me.
[2:43]Oh my gosh, I shouldn't even say congratulations.
[2:45]I should just say it's amazing to get to talk to you.
[2:48]This book had such a profound effect on me
[2:50]and so many people.
[2:52]Your epilogue is so gorgeous.
[2:54]The whole thing is amazing.
[2:56]And it still is just as relevant as profound and timeless
[3:01]as it was when it first came out.
[3:03]Don't you feel like that?
[3:05]Yeah, it's weird because it's world off in my life.
[3:08]So it's kind of like, you know,
[3:10]it's like life goes in these beautiful chapters.
[3:12]So it's like when Breath Becomes Air is one of them
[3:14]and also just like Paul, it's like everywhere
[3:17]all the time and things move forward and like, you know,
[3:21]but yeah, it's been amazing.
[3:22]It's been amazing to have Paul's book be out there
[3:25]even though he's not.
[3:27]Well, I feel like he did such a good job
[3:30]not only of letting us in, getting to know you,
[3:34]your family, your decision to have Katie on that
[3:38]but also the glimpse into the medical world
[3:41]and what it means to be a good doctor
[3:44]and what you shouldn't know and all of that.
[3:46]And like in my son wants to be a doctor
[3:49]and I'm like, he has to read this book
[3:51]like immediately when you write a doctor as well
[3:54]and everything.
[3:55]Yeah, but so valuable.
[3:57]There aren't a lot of, you know, mainstream books
[4:01]that talk about life and death.
[4:03]And anyway, as you know, yeah, which is wonderful.
[4:06]Yeah.
[4:07]It's one thing to live everything that happened in the book
[4:10]and it's another to, you know,
[4:13]have it be taken as copy so to speak and share the world.
[4:18]How was that at the time?
[4:20]And now as you live your life in this more public way
[4:25]in the aftermath, what is that like?
[4:27]Yeah, I mean, the first thing it like you say,
[4:29]it's like it's copy.
[4:30]I do feel like when there's a book
[4:33]and you put it out into the world
[4:34]then it becomes like everybody else's, you know,
[4:37]like in a great way sort of like
[4:39]when you read a book, you take whatever is gonna work for you.
[4:42]And I know there's like a whole bunch of people doing that.
[4:44]And so that's really wonderful.
[4:46]It's like doesn't belong to us anymore.
[4:49]And then also it's been really amazing.
[4:51]Just like, you know, it's just like I assume people know
[4:55]like the story of what happened with Paul
[4:57]and happened to me.
[4:58]Oh, maybe I call, but like I can say.
[5:00]Oh, maybe we should.
[5:01]Yeah.
[5:02]For listeners who have not read, I'm sorry.
[5:04]I just like, I'm happy to.
[5:05]Everybody knows.
[5:06]But yeah, why don't you tell Paul's story.
[5:08]Yeah.
[5:09]Yeah.
[5:10]When breath becomes.
[5:11]Yeah.
[5:12]Sure.
[5:13]Sure.
[5:14]So when breath becomes there is a memoir that was written in published
[5:15]in 2016 by my late husband, Paul Clonerty who was a nurse
[5:19]surgeon and writer.
[5:20]And he was a young doctor who actually never thought he would
[5:25]become a doctor.
[5:26]He thought he would be a writer or maybe a philosophy professor
[5:31]and then entered medical school thinking about these big questions
[5:34]like meaning mortality identity, fell in love with the operating
[5:38]room and became a nurse surgeon.
[5:40]Like really like thinking about how we live with suffering,
[5:45]you know, and then he himself became a really sick patient when he
[5:49]was 36 with stage four lung cancer all of a sudden and started
[5:55]writing as a way to sort of reconnect with words and literature
[6:01]and writing like the medical textbooks were not helpful anymore
[6:05]once he was a patient.
[6:06]And so he wrote this shortish memoir that's sort of from the perspective
[6:12]of a doctor and a patient.
[6:14]And then he died toward the end of when he was working on it.
[6:17]And so I wrote the epilogue.
[6:19]That was a real surprise to me actually that publisher came to me
[6:22]because we were sort of piecing it together after he died to finish
[6:25]and like choose the cover and get everything ready to publish still.
[6:29]And then they said, do you want to write an epilogue?
[6:32]And I was like, what, me?
[6:33]I'm not a writer.
[6:34]But I think the fact that like the day Paul died was a big part of his story,
[6:39]you know, like what happened on a day and the choices that he made
[6:42]and then reflecting on grief and him as a person
[6:46]and even the police that he's buried was sort of part of it too.
[6:49]And so that's what the book is about.
[6:52]And then for me personally, I did a book tour for Paul
[6:56]about a year after he died while grieving.
[7:00]And it was amazing.
[7:01]Like it was really great because grief is so like isolating
[7:06]and you're so like radioactive to people and so just being able
[7:11]to be in the world and sort of like have Paul as a touchstone
[7:15]and have that as like a project that I was still sort of doing
[7:19]like with and for him while like molting the relationship.
[7:24]Like when someone dies, they just suddenly disappear.
[7:26]Like they were there one second before another knot.
[7:29]It was like so shocking, you know?
[7:31]So shocking.
[7:32]Even as a doctor, I was just like, I knew he was going to die,
[7:35]but I didn't know he was going to disappear, you know?
[7:38]So anyway, and now it's 10 years later and we had a baby during that time
[7:42]and now she's like a 7th grader who's at Nature Camp this week
[7:46]and just like life just like keeps like turning over, you know?
[7:49]So it's been a while.
[7:51]So it's been really amazing.
[7:52]And I wish Paul could see the reach of the book certainly
[7:56]because it's like I was on the New York Times list for a year
[8:00]and it's actually like back on this summer, which is so interesting.
[8:03]So yeah, you know, I think like no one will see their whole legacy
[8:08]like with anything, right?
[8:10]Even raising a child.
[8:11]But I think, you know, Paul like whoops to have one.
[8:14]Well, first of all, I should have said I'm very sorry for your loss.
[8:19]Thank you.
[8:20]Thank you.
[8:21]Much later after the fact, but the way you wrote about grief too
[8:25]in the epilogue and saying how your relationship just because someone dies
[8:30]and yes, the relationship continues.
[8:33]It just morphs and they're not here, but it is still a huge part of you
[8:38]and how you think about the world and relate to things.
[8:41]You just can't really talk.
[8:43]You can't talk to that first about what's happening anymore.
[8:46]It doesn't make any sense.
[8:47]It's like there's a quote I put a quote in the epilogue by C.S. Lewis.
[8:51]And he says like he says, what does he say?
[8:54]He says something like, oh yeah, he says bereavement is not the truncation
[8:59]of married love, but one of its phases like the honeymoon.
[9:03]So it's like this idea of like one person being bereaved after a relationship
[9:08]like is a stage of the relationship.
[9:10]So interesting.
[9:11]And I think like yeah, it's like it has just been such an interesting thing.
[9:16]Oh my gosh.
[9:17]And we're just like, yeah, it's like when someone dies like all the
[9:20]complication and like all the sort of like texturedness of the relationship
[9:26]sort of like also sticks and like grief can be somewhat like flattening too
[9:30]or like eulogies can be somewhat flattening.
[9:33]Like I love when they're just like weird, like particular, you know.
[9:39]Yeah, platitudes don't help you get to know anybody, right?
[9:42]That's why that Paul was able to capture in you two just who exactly he was
[9:49]and how he conceived of the world and literature and how he wrestled with death.
[9:56]There's this one line too, which hopefully I have.
[10:00]Here at the ready he had one line and he said in these moments
[10:05]I acted not as I most often did as death's enemy, but as it's ambassador
[10:11]Which I found is such a striking line
[10:13]Right. What does it mean to?
[10:16]Constantly be fighting death and then what does it mean to accept that it's coming and
[10:20]Sort of politely welcome it in when you know it's inevitable and
[10:25]And yeah, how can we do that is living breathing creatures and maintain daily day-to-day boring life
[10:32]Totally, yeah, and he's talking about that when he's talking about that. He's talking about being a doctor
[10:36]Like the role of like being a shepherd as a doctor. It's so interesting because yeah when he's like, I'm texting ambassador instead of
[10:42]It's enemy. I mean obviously it's like
[10:45]He's not like wishing and for death, but at the same time like it's like the battle metaphor in cancer
[10:51]You know, it's like very flimsy. It's just sort of like binary
[10:54]But I think it's like things can be beautiful and terrible at the same time like
[11:00]Hope doesn't have to mean just one thing like there's all of these layers of what people hope for and like living longer is just one of them
[11:07]Yeah, it's like and so I think like even navigating medical care especially when you're really sick or you're really old or your parent is sick
[11:18]Yeah, like there is sort of a real thing that's happening
[11:21]to your body like whether or not
[11:25]You want it to you know, so then like how do you actually face up to that and
[11:29]Like there are some ways that we just enough to suffer and then how do we minimize like unnecessary suffering
[11:36]So we think about that in a medical context. Yeah, I love that he said that though
[11:40]I mean it's really like nuanced and there's a different kind of like courage and that and taking that on, you know
[11:47]Agree
[11:48]and he also
[11:49]talks about in his transition to being a patient
[11:53]How you can know so many things as a doctor and obviously your a doctor
[11:57]I'm sure you know this but that it wasn't until he for instance
[12:01]Tasted like the salt that it tasted like saltwater when he
[12:06]came out or whatever and
[12:08]Hard physical therapy really was and just all these specifics he's like I can't believe I've just been prescribing these for so long and not even
[12:15]Really knowing that like how much conductors
[12:18]Really know. I don't know. I found that behind as well
[12:22]Totally there were like a number of experiences in healthcare
[12:25]Where yeah, it's like you can't exactly know until you go through it and then sort of as a doctor you realize
[12:31]You're like you risk to think that you
[12:34]Add as much influence as you did on your patient's life or you know or that you should you know like
[12:40]Yeah, and then similarly on the flip side
[12:42]all sort of even as like a young
[12:46]Like in charge neurosurgeon
[12:49]Depended so much on his oncologist or like
[12:53]emotional and
[12:55]Like existential sign postings was really interesting to feel like
[12:59]you know like
[13:01]The ways yeah, just like what it was like to be on the other side of health care
[13:06]How do you feel about all the advances in lung cancer treatment in the last 10 years because
[13:12]Now you can really live a long time with stage four lung cancer. How do you totally?
[13:18]Yeah, I'm like different. Yeah different a bunch of like stage four cancers and that's like a whole bunch of targeted therapies came out and
[13:26]Immunotherapy came out and when we were in med school, which was like
[13:31]2003 to 2007 like we were just learning about like the first one of those and so
[13:37]Yeah, I mean, it's so wonderful because in some ways like
[13:41]Maybe even advanced cancer is turning into a chronic disease
[13:45]but not for everybody and you don't know which one you are and even for like early stage cancer
[13:53]When you get a diagnosis and then you have to figure out the staging you have to do the treatment
[13:58]Your kind of still never the same like even even if you're totally cured like
[14:02]You still had to have like the moment of hearing about it and then wrestle with like
[14:09]The best case in the worst case and how to tolerate uncertainty and so
[14:13]I mean, it's really really great and it's still so uncertain like for an individual person
[14:19]And there's so many people in like stage four cancer communities who are sort of like
[14:24]Leoprogging treatments right like maybe if this one works for long enough like a new thing will come out
[14:29]They'll be the next thing or maybe not and so
[14:33]Yeah, I mean, it's just like an intense like great awful time to
[14:38]Like be a patient
[14:40]So of course, this is none of my business and we don't have to go there
[14:43]But you found love again after loss and I'm sure that it's very encouraging to many
[14:50]People who feel like that will never happen to them or couldn't be a possibility or can you talk a little bit or share
[14:57]What that is like for you. Yeah, sure and I'm single right now actually, but yeah, I've been in like some really great relationships
[15:06]since Paul died and
[15:08]Yeah, I don't even know what to say about it. I mean
[15:10]When Paul first got sick one of the first things he said was I want you to remarry after I died
[15:17]I should really like beautiful and amazing and like shocking
[15:20]A beautiful that he was like thinking about me like even
[15:25]Even at that moment
[15:27]Yeah, and then it's just kind of like I first I wasn't ready
[15:31]I sort of just had to wait until like I felt ready at a certain like six months after Paul died
[15:36]I took off my wedding ring to go swimming and then was like
[15:40]Oh, I don't know. I don't think I put it back on
[15:42]She's like so interesting, you know, you don't sometimes you don't know until you know
[15:46]And then but yeah, I just feel like there's like enough love to go around
[15:50]Always love Paul forever like he's our family. He's Katie's dad
[15:54]His parents are Katie's grandparents like they're all around and at the same time. It's like
[16:01]I can love someone else too
[16:03]You know, but yeah, and it's like I do feel like
[16:07]Life keeps surprising you. I know if when Paul first died
[16:12]I was so lonely. I had like so many physical symptoms that I dance
[16:17]I had all this hand pain and like tingling like grief is really physical. It's like you're sleepless like you heard
[16:23]You know, it's like it's very because I'm like hadn't realized how physical we and I thought I would never feel better
[16:30]And my mom was like things will fill in like you'll start to feel better
[16:33]And I was like I literally don't believe you
[16:35]But I just think that happens and now even when I go through hard things. It's like
[16:41]You never know what's around the corner, you know
[16:44]It's so true
[16:47]What chapter do you feel like you're in now?
[16:50]Middle school
[16:52]Yeah, I'm in like the middle school moment. We're moving
[16:56]I'm like open to love again like I don't know. I
[17:01]DVD
[17:04]I have two middle schoolers right now. So yeah, I have a rising six and seventh grader. So
[17:10]Oh, they're so close in each. Yeah. Yeah
[17:13]Yeah
[17:14]That is it is
[17:15]I love it like it's a cool age. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I'm glad I majored in psychology back in the day
[17:25]Yeah, yeah, I just heard this interview with Rachel of Eve who said like she quotes somebody saying like growing up
[17:34]Is like learning to play hide and seek with your mother over and over and over
[17:39]It was so interesting because all the mothers and daughters
[17:41]So interesting growing up and sort of like separating and sort of like
[17:45]And I was like oh, that's so interesting like you do have to let them play hide and seek
[17:49]Or you just have to like live with them thing hide and seek
[17:52]You know what I mean as we start to like grow up. It's sort of the ultimate heartbreak
[17:56]But it's really exciting too
[17:58]Yeah, do you worry about your own death?
[18:01]Like I feel like I'm always so worried that
[18:04]Something's gonna happen to me and I'm gonna leave my kids and
[18:07]I would like how do you feel about that right? Oh, yeah, I think I mean the big thing I would
[18:14]Hair about how to fight to hide it's like
[18:16]Leaving Katie before she's ready like that's my hugest hugest just just like you just said
[18:21]That would be like the one thing that really really matters
[18:24]I think I think I really believe a thing that Paul said which is like
[18:29]A way to not be afraid of dying is to
[18:33]Like feel really good about your life. Like there's a
[18:37]The end of this poem called I went out to hear by Lila Chati
[18:41]The last line of it is she says it's so amazing. It's like the best epitaph. She says um
[18:47]My god to have lived a life. I would die for
[18:51]Which is so cool. Mm-hmm. And it's like this idea that
[18:56]You know like what like what might you be leaving undone?
[19:01]like what would you you know like
[19:05]What are all the ways that you can be like really proud of like the life you built and I actually think like
[19:11]When Paul died
[19:14]I wrote about this in this essay in the New York Times. It's like it was less
[19:19]Than he was losing everything and it was more like he had everything. It's really interesting
[19:25]He was writing and he had a new baby and like it was actually so like rich and beautiful
[19:31]And really hard to leave for that reason but at the same time like he was really satisfied
[19:36]You know like I think he like felt like he did like live into the life that he had
[19:42]So I don't know. It's also like really really sad
[19:45]Like the finite and it's really sad to
[19:50]Like leave people. I think that's one of the hardest things
[19:53]But I don't know. I think like the more you build your life
[19:56]Like the sort of like less fearsome death
[20:00]is in a way. I know that saying is like sort of paradoxical.
[20:05]Well, you wrote about how at the end he said that he was ready.
[20:10]And that was, you know, I feel like so many, you hear that over and over again. Then at some point,
[20:16]they might, you might not be happy about it, but you are at peace and like ready to go.
[20:20]Yeah. And then, yeah. Totally. I'm like partly he was like,
[20:24]that was also in the context of like no good choices.
[20:27]Yeah. Do you know how many good choices on that day? It was like, should I be
[20:31]into being an event leader or not? Yeah. Like, I'm going to die like one way or another.
[20:36]And so I think like the choice that he had was like, how to
[20:41]what to choose like in a medical context. But yeah, you're right. That's what he said.
[20:47]Do you believe in signs? Like, do you ever feel like you see a butterfly or do you know, do you believe?
[20:54]Yeah. Like a question. Not exactly. But at the same time, I'll get like,
[21:02]comfort from like random things. And I just have like a flash of wonder. It's like,
[21:08]one time I was walking through New York City and I was really sad after losing Paul. And then
[21:12]this church door was open or like, maybe there's a church that was really beautiful. And I like
[21:16]walked in, just kind of like walked around for a minute. And then came out. And this person
[21:21]who was like busking on the street was playing bossa nova. And like this particular song that like
[21:25]Paul really loved, that we played in our wedding and that he used to play in the OR. Like when he was
[21:30]like the surging, it's a choosing music. And so I don't know. That was like, oh, why is this music playing
[21:37]and that kind of stuff happens? And I love it. Yeah. It's so nice for you. I do. I do. Yeah.
[21:44]I, yeah. I don't know. I do. I mean, yes, I do. Yeah. I was funny because like,
[21:51]I like used to be, I used to be an atheist. And then Paul said, and now I feel agnostic.
[21:57]I just feel kind of like, who am I to like, no, everything is so big. Right. You know, yeah.
[22:04]And yeah, how could you even explain love? Like it's just like,
[22:07]one time I actually asked Paul that, it was like, do you, is he really wrestled? He was
[22:11]Christian, but then like really wrestled with faith. And I, one time I was like, what do you think?
[22:18]Like, do you believe in God? And he's like, I don't know. I think just as important a question
[22:22]as do you believe in love? Be right side about the book in the book too. He's just like, there's
[22:26]all this stuff that like, neurotransmitters don't explain or like science doesn't explain. You know?
[22:32]Yeah. Like life is really, really huge. And like you say kind of mystical. Oh my gosh.
[22:37]Yeah. Are you glad? Did you ever feel annoyed that Paul took so much of his, at the end of his
[22:44]life, writing as opposed to just like hanging out with you? It was all like mixed together.
[22:51]I saw more annoyed when he was healthy. And then he chose to be a neurosurgeon. I was like,
[22:55]are you serious? When we got engaged, he was going to be the kind interest.
[23:00]Like he was so interested in the brain and so interested in people who were suffering and who
[23:06]like really needed to who were like losing identity and then had to like rebuild that. And so he
[23:11]was drawn to medicine initially for psychiatry. And then what he was interested in in neurosurgery
[23:16]was functional neurosurgery, which is like deep brain stimulation and some of that like
[23:21]like non invasive stuff that treats like issues in the brain that you can't like physically see.
[23:27]Like it's like, it's like Parkinson's treatment, resistant depression, epilepsy,
[23:32]like things that aren't like tumor, trauma, stroke, like that kind of stuff. So you sort of like
[23:38]cerebral even as a neurosurgeon. Yeah. And then when he became sick, initially he wanted to go back
[23:45]to work as a surgeon and did for like a year and then was becoming too sick to do that. And like
[23:50]fortuitously started writing, published an essay in the New York Times and then was solicited
[23:56]by agents and editors. It just felt like such a gift that he had a chance to sort of like
[24:01]forge a vocation that was really different, you know, and that could keep him so engaged in
[24:07]like the world of ideas. Like he was so alive, like all the way till the end. And so, and he was like
[24:12]hanging out in our living room like writing. So that was like, it wasn't like he was exactly separate.
[24:18]And then like the manuscript was a communication tool also in a way. Like he was pretty
[24:24]introverted, he was like an internal assessor unlike me. And so like writing and then like the two
[24:33]of us talking about the manuscript was actually a way to approach his like really painful. It's
[24:38]really painful experience like a little bit indirectly, you know, because it was like about the craft
[24:44]or about the narrative, you know, when really it was like his actual life. But it was sort of like
[24:50]it was memoir. So even like at that time it was like a way to like connect and like as I said.
[24:58]So it worked like even worked in our relationship. And then it's just like there was so much that
[25:04]needed to happen for Paul to be able to write when he was sick. Like he had like, he was taking
[25:10]chemo medication that like really messes with your skin. So his hands were like super dry and like
[25:16]he sort of had like fissures on his fingers as painful. And so then he had like those like special
[25:22]like gloves that people wear when it's cold and you're like tapping on your phone. Like wearing
[25:26]California, but he was like wearing those gloves so he could even like use this track pad and type
[25:30]and feel like they're doing it. And then it's like he had special like recliner that like
[25:35]then he wouldn't have back pain while he was writing. So he would keep shifting position. And then
[25:39]it's like, is he going to write like in the key most we and just like there was a lot of sort of
[25:44]like logistics around being a writer at that time. So that even felt sort of like that was like
[25:51]really sort of like a like a team effort. So it all it actually was not like isolating like he sort
[25:58]of just disappeared. It was like really really a part of the day today. And that was in a good way.
[26:03]It's amazing. Thank you so much Lucy. Thank you for sharing your story, your family,
[26:12]and being such a great steward of the book. It's it's a piece of culture. It's like so important
[26:21]and it's such an honor to talk to you directly about it. And so thank you. Thank you. I wish you
[26:26]could have talked to you. I bet you would have been like really loving talking about books. Thank you.
[26:30]Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to totally booked with
[26:37]Zibi, formerly mom's don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[26:42]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much.
[26:49]Oh and bye the books.