Kate Doerge and Sara Bliss, REIMAGINING GRIEF: A New Path to Finding Healing, Strength, and Joy after Loss
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked.
[0:02]I'm Zibi Owens.
[0:04]I've interviewed more than 2,000 authors on this show
[0:07]and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself.
[0:11]Because when you talk about books,
[0:13]you're really talking about life.
[0:15]So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling and the not yet discovered.
[0:20]Come find your next great read and the story behind it.
[0:24]Enjoy.
[0:27]This episode is going to help you.
[0:30]It's going to help you whether you've gone through loss and grief.
[0:33]It's going to help if your body is in pain.
[0:37]It's going to help if someone you love has gone through loss
[0:40]or is in pain or has been in pain or will be in pain.
[0:45]It's basically impossible not to find this episode
[0:48]helpful to someone in your life or yourself.
[0:51]And I know that's a big claim, but I mean it.
[0:54]We have Kate Dergie, who I just adore
[0:58]and her co-author, Sara Bliss.
[1:00]Kate Dergie wrote reimagining grief,
[1:02]a new path to finding healing strength and joy after loss
[1:05]after her daughter, Penny, passed away
[1:09]and after her mother and father also passed away.
[1:13]But you'll hear more about that in the episode.
[1:15]Kate became a nonprofit founder, philanthropist, speaker,
[1:19]brand strategist, and co-founder and CEO
[1:22]of Penny's Flight Foundation, which raises awareness and funding
[1:26]for neural fibral mitosis.
[1:29]The forward of this book is written by Jennifer Hager.
[1:32]And Sara Bliss has been on this podcast
[1:34]before she is also a brand consultant and best-selling author
[1:38]who has collaborated on many books,
[1:40]including Take the Leap, Change Your Career, Change Your Life,
[1:44]which she was on this podcast to discuss years and years ago.
[1:47]Welcome to Totally Book.
[1:49]I am so excited to be here in person today
[1:51]with co-authors Kate Dergie and Sara Bliss.
[1:55]re-imagining grief, a new path to finding healing strength
[1:59]and joy after loss with forward by Jennifer Hager.
[2:02]Congratulations.
[2:03]Thank you.
[2:04]It's here.
[2:05]Oh, my God.
[2:06]Thank you.
[2:07]So emotional.
[2:07]Yes.
[2:08]Oh.
[2:09]And as we're recording this coming out in two weeks.
[2:11]Yes, June 16, it's taking place, which I can't believe
[2:15]and I really feel emotional because it's been such a labor of love
[2:19]and such a partnership with Sara.
[2:22]And I'm just so grateful for all of it
[2:24]and how weddings have spread.
[2:26]And I can't wait for this book to reach all the people.
[2:29]I know need it because this is the book that I wanted
[2:33]after the loss of my mother, my father,
[2:35]and her beautiful daughter, Penny.
[2:37]In the book, you talk about all of these losses,
[2:40]which it just felt like you had one thing after the next.
[2:44]It was just, as I know, so many people do
[2:46]and life and just feel relentless.
[2:50]Talk a little bit about what it felt like going through.
[2:54]Let's start with your mom.
[2:55]Yeah.
[2:56]Well, it started my dad.
[2:58]Actually, he was the first loss that I had experienced.
[3:01]And I sort of look back on these losses,
[3:04]almost as the dress rehearsal for what we did with Penny.
[3:07]But certainly with my dad, he was the greatest role model
[3:11]for me with such a force of life and faith.
[3:16]My father was very spiritual.
[3:17]In the sense he studied to be a priest.
[3:20]He was also marine.
[3:21]So he had this physical strength and this spiritual faith.
[3:25]And he instilled that in me from when I was little.
[3:28]And so my father always used to say,
[3:30]well, when my time comes, it comes.
[3:33]And I always used to think that was so morbid
[3:35]because growing up, it was like a seriously bad.
[3:38]But in that last week of his life, he had heart failure.
[3:42]He was ready.
[3:43]And he sort of instilled that belief in us
[3:46]that when my time comes, it comes.
[3:48]So when his time came, it came.
[3:50]And we weren't going to mourn him
[3:52]because he was ready to move forward
[3:54]and ready to move to the other side.
[3:57]And so we celebrated him.
[3:59]And we honored him in a way that I think was different
[4:03]from most people.
[4:03]We did, of course, the traditional Catholic service.
[4:07]But then we had a chilly bake-off party in his honor.
[4:11]Bluegrass, music that he loved.
[4:13]And then when it came to my mom,
[4:15]my mom died in a tragic car crash
[4:17]five days before Christmas years ago.
[4:20]But at that time, I spoke to her in the morning
[4:23]and I got the call that afternoon
[4:25]from my godmother who said, there's been an accident.
[4:29]You have to call the hospital.
[4:30]And when I called the hospital and it put me on hold,
[4:34]they came back on and they said,
[4:35]I'm so sorry to tell you, she didn't make it.
[4:38]And so with that, I had a choice
[4:41]as my father had given us advice
[4:43]the night before my husband and I got married.
[4:45]He said, you lived a charm life, beautiful friends,
[4:48]beautiful family, but you will be challenged in life.
[4:52]And that's up to you, how you play those cards, you're done.
[4:55]And so with that advice in my dad's head
[4:58]sitting in my driveway five days before Christmas,
[5:02]I had three kids in my house waiting in the celebrate Christmas.
[5:06]And my mother was the brightest light
[5:08]with the biggest heart and she loved Christmas.
[5:11]And so I walked inside and I knew I had a choice.
[5:15]And I said to the kids, we've got a, this has happened,
[5:18]but we need to honor and celebrate Tassie.
[5:20]This is what she would want us to do.
[5:23]And so we did.
[5:24]We had held several celebrations of my mom's life.
[5:28]She was a jazzer-sized instructor and a belly dancer.
[5:31]So we can talk about that, but we held parade in her honor.
[5:36]And everyone dresses their favorite Tassie
[5:39]and I'm more her belly dancing costume.
[5:40]Which my boys, I think, were horrified at.
[5:45]But those were the dress rehearsals
[5:47]for how we handled the loss of Penny.
[5:49]But wasn't just the loss of Penny in the book
[5:52]you write about her whole medical journey on the first.
[5:54]I feel like the first moment of grief
[5:56]as Penny was when she fell in bed for a long time.
[5:59]And you were lucky enough, honestly,
[6:02]to get the diagnosis.
[6:03]Early so you could start treatment early Friday tonight
[6:06]because how else would you know that?
[6:08]Yes, no exactly.
[6:09]And that goes back to my dad's advice.
[6:11]You know, when Penny rolled off our bed,
[6:13]a four months old, she fractured her tippy of them.
[6:16]And we raced up to the hospital for special surgery
[6:18]here in New York City.
[6:20]And I was holding four month old Penny in my arms
[6:23]and the head of pediatric orthopedics said to us at the time,
[6:26]not only is this a fracture, but it's something more serious
[6:30]called congenial scooter thorosis.
[6:32]One out of 300,000 people have this.
[6:35]And you're going to have a long road ahead of you.
[6:38]And we need to take this seriously.
[6:40]Because if we don't, she may lose her leg.
[6:43]So you can imagine holding Penny in my arms
[6:46]with Chad by my side.
[6:47]We looked at each other.
[6:48]And we said, all right, here it is.
[6:50]How are we going to play the cards were dealt?
[6:52]And so we made sure Penny had a big, beautiful, bright life.
[6:56]And she wore a little brace on her leg every day,
[6:59]but she bedazzled it.
[7:01]She accessorized every cash she had
[7:04]after every surgery to match all of her outfits.
[7:07]She wore bows in her hair.
[7:10]And she was never defined by anything the diagnosis.
[7:15]And so how do you play those cards are dealt in life?
[7:19]And we chose beauty and light and love.
[7:22]And Penny was our leader.
[7:24]They're all of this.
[7:26]And so seven leg surgeries in her life,
[7:29]the little brace she wore every day.
[7:31]And it wasn't until she was 14
[7:33]that she developed the first brain tumor.
[7:36]And that was the same.
[7:38]You know, how are we going to play these cards?
[7:40]Yes, the tumors there.
[7:42]It was benign until it was not, but we could remove it.
[7:45]So with each surgery, it was get in there,
[7:48]remove the tumor and go river rafting, you know,
[7:51]get in there, remove the tumor
[7:52]and have a big, beautiful 16 birthday party for her.
[7:56]And I don't think her surgeon could believe us each time.
[8:00]You know, we were told this, the tumor was back
[8:03]and he would look at Penny and say,
[8:04]our pen, what do you have coming up on the schedule?
[8:07]Because let's get it out and you move forward with life.
[8:10]So that's just how we lived through everything she faced.
[8:14]How she lived through everything.
[8:17]Then you write so pointed me beautifully and Sarah,
[8:20]your role and crowding my gosh.
[8:23]If you'd love to hear the behind the scenes of this,
[8:25]but going through those final days,
[8:29]the way that you approached filling the house,
[8:31]the joy, the signs you saw in the immediate aftermath.
[8:35]Go cry now.
[8:38]Because we went through this together,
[8:40]certainly in writing this book.
[8:41]But you know, the choices we need,
[8:43]again, how do you play the cards your dealt?
[8:45]So when we received that news that Penny's tumor,
[8:49]it spread, it was a moment.
[8:52]How are we going to play these cards?
[8:53]Are we going to sit in the hospital and be so dark
[8:57]and feel so depressed and let Penny feel it?
[9:00]No, we're going to bring her home.
[9:02]I'm going to fill the house with love and light
[9:05]and bring all of the people who love her so much
[9:08]so that we created a love cocoon.
[9:11]And it was so beautiful.
[9:13]And I'm so happy we were able to talk about this in the book
[9:15]because I know it's not what people would expect.
[9:18]I know this was a different choice.
[9:21]And I know how hard it was for all of us to make this choice,
[9:26]but we also recognize what would Penny want?
[9:29]Would she want to be sitting in a hospital bed with beepers
[9:33]and feeling depressed and the sterile smell all around her?
[9:37]No.
[9:38]We wanted to have her have the comfort of home
[9:42]and the smell she loved and the French
[9:44]she left all around her and then dogs on her bed.
[9:47]You know, loving her up and this love cocoon
[9:50]so that we did send her out on a rocket ship of love.
[9:54]And that last week, those last seven days
[9:58]of Penny's life were beautiful.
[10:00]Chad sat by her side and he
[10:02]Saying angels from Montgomery and played it on the guitar and we laughed and we told stories and
[10:10]She felt the love and the light. You know, we talked about it in the book
[10:15]But um certainly the light in November, Penny passed on November 10
[10:20]October 31st she went dressed as an angel or Halloween and she went trick-or-treating and
[10:26]And it was on November 1st that we took her in and we learned that the tumor had spread
[10:30]But there are no coincidences and I talk a lot about the actions of
[10:36]Looking for the signs of our loved ones because they're still with us
[10:40]Just in a different shape and form and that last week in November when the light was so bright outside of our house
[10:47]There were butterflies outside of Penny's window and I wear this necklace every day that Penny wore with her name on it
[10:55]And to see butterflies outside of her window even before she passed and the signs that came after
[11:04]She left us. We're incredible because they were so comforting and so beautiful and one story and and Sarah
[11:11]And I just learned this recently, but I had a friend tell me that she said did you know
[11:17]When you decided to bring Penny home that we all went on Amazon and bought all of these electric candles
[11:25]Because we had a vision that we were gonna stand outside of your house
[11:30]in a vigil of support and love and and show you the light from outside while you're inside and I laughed
[11:37]I was like are you crazy? I was like what I can't imagine
[11:42]Having the light outside when we brought the light inside
[11:46]And she said that she said I can't believe when we arrived that you opened up the house
[11:52]Open up the door and you brought us all inside because that's where the light in the love is and that's where it should be
[11:59]And so she had all these candles left over
[12:03]And we did an event after Penny passed but it was such a different way of doing it
[12:09]It's beautiful like the light that you're shining on
[12:13]how
[12:14]Losing someone can be different right the pain is there. Yeah, but your response to
[12:21]How to cope with it and I would love to hear you know a little bit about
[12:25]How you ended up putting it all in the book with
[12:28]Some user-friendly suggestions, right? You're not just telling Penny story, which we put in and I'm obviously just beyond
[12:35]Sorry, I know we've just got so sorry for thank you. Oh, what a gift
[12:40]She and what a legacy. She's left behind and I know we're not just supposed to say sorry for your last because that's like such a pat thing to say
[12:46]But
[12:48]Change the narrative changing the narrative, so but I just like had to say yeah, I'm consciousness
[12:52]You know, she seems amazing. I'm sad. I never got to meet Penny and it sounds like she was just the most special
[12:59]She is still but you're also
[13:03]With her story and your story and your family story and have the boys responded to everything
[13:08]I mean, you're you're sharing something super powerful, which is how do we get through something that can feel unimaginable
[13:15]With joy. How do we ask? How do we combine two narratives that don't often mix?
[13:22]Yeah, they don't because people can't imagine not holding grief and joy together because the reality is
[13:30]You know, we all know when you're grieving and you're going through it you are rocked to the core you are
[13:36]Decimated. I mean truly feeling so low as you can possibly feel so the idea of joy
[13:42]You can't even fathom
[13:44]But for me, I kept going back to what would Penny want?
[13:48]What would my mom want? What would my dad want?
[13:51]Would they want me saying in bed? Would they want me being in the dark feeling so sad?
[13:57]Or would they want you reaching for the light?
[14:00]Reaching for the joy again in their honor
[14:03]I think that was really important for us to show in the book this idea of
[14:08]We're not getting over grief
[14:10]But how are we taking action to move through it?
[14:14]And when Sara and I started working together
[14:16]Which is the most beautiful story of how we were brought together
[14:19]It was really important for me to recognize I'm not saying get over grief because you won't always hold grief
[14:27]I always have Penny with me and I still cry missing her, but it's how do you move forward in their honor
[14:34]And what are those actual steps you can take because if you've been through grief
[14:39]We all know
[14:40]There's no look out there that tells you you can feel strong again that you can feel like you've healed
[14:46]And that you can feel joy
[14:48]And I was being sent all these books that I didn't want to be feeling. I didn't want to be told
[14:54]These five stages of grief while they were helpful back in the 70s and the 80s
[15:00]It's time to reimagine how we can move through grief and hold joy and grief in the same space
[15:06]How did you approach such a complex emotionally-loaded and yet uplifting while
[15:14]Saddening topic? Well, it was interesting because when we were connected
[15:19]Originally, we thought you know her story so inspiring and particularly those you know how they handled the loss and
[15:26]Going back to the lesson that she learned from her dad about you know the fact that we're all going to be dealt something
[15:32]We originally approached it as a memoir. Yes, and then what was happening in real time as we were doing that
[15:38]With so many people were coming to Kate and or introducing her to people who had experienced really tough loss like losing a child
[15:46]And they were saying like you know, we're so surprised to see like smiling on Instagram
[15:52]Where you're still standing and you're still moving and like how are you not have you not collapsed because this is
[15:58]Most painful thing. I can imagine like how are you able to do that?
[16:03]and
[16:03]We just kept talking through it and talking through it and one of the things we kept coming back to was
[16:09]We've both had experienced a lot of loss. I've lost two siblings at that point
[16:13]I lost my father and my mother was an hospice
[16:16]and my son was going through cancer treatment so a lot had happened to both of us yet both of us had that feeling of always
[16:25]Reaching for the light when you get into kind of
[16:28]Counter or mitigate some of the pain that life throws at you
[16:32]But both of us have talked about the five stages of grief and how we both had a visceral risk
[16:37]and I first reached for it when my sister died and I really found it to be
[16:42]Just it didn't I didn't I didn't relate with it
[16:45]I was already feeling for me that grief and that loss was so painful
[16:49]It was like swimming in ink as hell to describe and like I was so dark
[16:53]and I would like get up and I worked at Yahoo at the time and I was writing all these inspiring stories about people
[16:59]Over overcoming tough situations and then I would like cry on the subway on the way home and so at one point I googled this
[17:07]And it turns out the five stages of grief were actually and they're amazing
[17:11]But they were written to help people face terminal a terminal diagnosis
[17:16]They weren't actually meant to help with grieving
[17:19]And so especially because sorry they don't have been especially because one of them is bargaining
[17:23]Yes, you can't apply that degree. What are you bargaining for?
[17:26]Yes, someone back. Yeah, and not that you don't have those feelings
[17:32]But when we when we looked at what Kate had actually done there were five main things actions that she had taken
[17:39]And all of them actually had science behind them
[17:42]Like every single thing that she did when we researched it there was research behind it
[17:47]There's research behind
[17:49]the power of movement during grief the power of connection during the grave
[17:54]You know, there's the power of celebration
[17:56]And so that we kind of felt like oh my gosh, I think we have something here
[18:00]And she was sharing this with people and I was sharing this with people
[18:03]And I was actually using it kind of in my own anticipatory grief with my mom
[18:08]And we just really felt like there was something bigger here that needed to be shared
[18:13]And it was so incredible and I will say this and I tell everyone this because if you have a story
[18:19]You want to tell as powerful as what I've been through
[18:23]You know the fact that I'm not a writer. I'm an author now
[18:27]But I wasn't a trained writer and the fact that Sarah and I connected in this way
[18:32]And I could share my words and she put them into my words on the paper is the most beautiful gift
[18:39]And it is I think a real realization for me that
[18:43]If you have a story you can share it and you can tell it and how important is that?
[18:47]And now beautiful and just back to the signs because that's one of my most favorite chapters
[18:53]And when we were connected it was through a mutual friend and
[18:58]We were in conversation and I was helping Sarah with connections
[19:02]You know she wanted to get back to MSK where her son had been treated and plenty have been treated there
[19:07]So he had this mutual just respect for MSK and the give back there
[19:12]And then she was like you need to tell your story and I said to her well
[19:16]I don't know how to do that. Where do I even begin?
[19:18]And she was like well, this is what I do and this if you know we that's how we started
[19:23]Actually, I actually said I can advise you and give you another writer
[19:32]And then the sign that was the most beautiful is that I sent Sarah a picture
[19:37]Penny dressed as an angel for Halloween and I thought this was penny and she said oh my gosh
[19:42]She said you know this is beautiful and I said I know isn't that so beautiful and what
[19:46]You know, I didn't use the word coincidence because I never think of anything else like coincidence
[19:51]I said no coincidence. She was dressed as an angel for her last Halloween and she said yes and look at the owl behind her and
[20:00]on our side step, is this owl planter that was my grandmother's.
[20:04]And I said, I know that was my grandmother's. And Sara said, yes, but my sister sends me signs
[20:08]at owls. And I said, that's so beautiful. What was your sister's name? And she said,
[20:14]Cassie, which is my mother's name. I was like, okay, that's not a sign that we should work together.
[20:21]I don't know what it is. And then of course we become so oriented to science. It's constant
[20:27]where we're like, texting each other. And then we like, we had only spoken on the phone. And
[20:31]my husband surprised me first, like a studio next concert and we're walking in. And it's
[20:36]it's city field. And I don't know how many tens of thousands of people are there. Are you? Yeah.
[20:40]And there's Kate like right in front of me. I mean, it just doesn't feel like an accident. And then
[20:46]there were a lot of things like that. And then I actually make a mix for every book that I work on.
[20:53]And I randomly put Bonnie writes, angel from Montgomery, not knowing this.
[20:58]I haven't heard that song. I must have heard on the radio or for some reason, I just was like,
[21:04]added it to it. Because like, you try and get in the zone of whatever you're writing. And I
[21:10]sent it to her and she goes, did I tell you? Like, do you know that that was the song that was playing?
[21:16]And that's like that kept happening. Well, and then there's the beautiful sort of the owl
[21:21]when Laura Lynn Jackson can I tell you that one? Because it's so beautiful. So the day
[21:26]Laura Lynn Jackson who has become, I also talk about her in the book. She was on this podcast.
[21:31]She's amazing because her book signs was a lifeline for us. It truly was the only book that brought
[21:38]me comfort. And I sent it to all Penny's girlfriends. My boys have read it. Chad, you know,
[21:43]we all loved that book so much. And so no coincidence on Penny's third anniversary of her passing,
[21:50]Laura launched guided in Long Island a mile from our house at L.I.U. So I went and that night
[21:58]incredible. You could feel the energy in the auditorium. And we had written a question that we
[22:05]wanted to ask Laura in conversation. And the moderator at the time dropped all the cards on the stage,
[22:11]right as she was about to ask them. And she said, well, clearly your loved ones are now going to
[22:16]put them in in the order in which they should be read. Okay. Whose card was on top of ours? So
[22:21]when I met Laura, I was like, oh my gosh, you know, I felt like I had such a girl crush. I was like,
[22:26]you have been a lifeline, the fact that we're here on Penny's anniversary. Our question was the
[22:30]first one asked. And she said, Kate, there are no coincidences. I know Penny's with us. And she
[22:36]has put me on your path for a reason. And so we developed this really nice relationship. I, of
[22:41]course, be Ms. Stalker. Do you have any more on Instagram? And she being who she is so supportive
[22:48]and loving. And she and I developed this relationship. So I asked her, would you read the book? She
[22:54]said, I would be honored. She read the book. She's like, I love it. Kate, this is going to help
[22:58]so many people at my sister again. Because if you don't get what you, if you don't ask. So I was like,
[23:04]would you endorse the book? And she was like, I would be honored. I'd love to write something.
[23:09]And she's also coming on my book tour for, for in conversation with me. But the night that
[23:14]the endorsement was due or the day the endorsement was due to Hay House. I hadn't received it yet.
[23:20]So I woke up that morning feeling anxious. And I walked outside and my husband and his friends
[23:26]have put owl houses in our backyards. But for five months, we've never had an owl. So I,
[23:32]and he has a camera and they're obsessed with looking for the owls. And so I walk out into the
[23:38]front yard and my husband was in Florida. And he calls me. And he's like, you're never going to
[23:42]believe it. We have an owl in the owl house. And I was like, what? And I go to the backyard. And
[23:48]they're in the little house is the cutest chubbiest little furry owl faith. I was like, oh,
[23:53]we have an owl. And so I ran inside. And for some reason, I popped open my computer. And there
[23:59]my inbox was the endorsement from Laura Lynn Jackson. And I was like, oh my gosh, it's a sign
[24:05]from the author who wrote sign. There's the owl. And she just said this. So I called, sorry.
[24:10]I was like, you're never going to believe it. She just sent the endorsement. There's an owl in
[24:15]our backyard. I keep looking in Sarga's cape. Do you know what day it is today? And it was Cassie's
[24:20]birthday. Yeah, that's not so beautiful. But not crazy, but not crazy. Oh my gosh. Well, what are
[24:29]some of the things in addition to more prescriptive elements? Like get extra side. Like see
[24:35]him moving. Yeah, all of that. When there's somebody who's out there, let's say somebody sitting in
[24:40]their car right now and just feeling like, yeah, yeah, it's nice to tell me to feel joy and do fun
[24:46]joyous things. Yeah, I don't feel joyous. Yeah, I don't have the energy. Maybe to do that
[24:50]because I'm feeling depressed or whatever. What do you say to them? Well, so I've been doing a lot
[24:54]of workshops and speaking engagements. And I recently had a friend of mine who joined a workshop and
[25:00]she had lost her father. And the only way she could feel connected to him was to sit in the dark
[25:06]and listen to Andre Buccheli on repeat because she was like, hey, I can't even get out of bed.
[25:11]I cannot even fathom opening up my blinds. And I said, I understand that. I understand you're
[25:19]connecting with him and this is the way you're honoring him. But what if, what if you got outside
[25:25]and put your face to the sunshine, put those AirPods in your ear and you can stay connected with him.
[25:31]But he would want you to be outside. He wouldn't want you to feel that sunshine. So what if you
[25:36]you just took one step, one foot in front of the other and got outside. And you're showing yourself
[25:42]you can do this. You can move forward. And this is what he would want you to do. So I don't think
[25:48]it's a massive, you know, because I get it. Like it's not as easy as me jumping on the rebound
[25:55]or because I've been through it. But I also understand if you can just put your feet on the ground
[26:00]and you can put one foot in front of the other and show yourself you can get downstairs to make
[26:05]a coffee or you can get downstairs to go outside and put your face in the sunshine. You're
[26:11]showing yourself you can move forward. And the first step, I would say also, I think, you know, joy
[26:16]is part of it. But like all of the, all of this time and all of these actions, like grief is
[26:22]really hard. And we talk about that. And I, you know, we, but we both have experienced kind of
[26:28]different kinds of grief. And I think that it's not about like, oh, you're going to do this
[26:34]action. You're going to suddenly feel joyful. Yeah. It's really about how do you like calm your
[26:39]nervous system? How do you do stuff that affects your mental health in a positive way, not in a negative
[26:45]way? Because again, they're all these studies. So some of them, yeah, you know, the first step we
[26:50]talk about is connection. And you know, this is where we, you know, debate it a little bit because,
[26:55]you know, originally we had the first step of celebration. And I just said, I remember when my sister
[27:00]dad and I didn't want to celebrate anything. And I still have trouble with that. And we went
[27:06]through everything. And then it was very clear in case that let's start with connection. Because
[27:11]no matter how sad you are, if you can just let somebody in and let them know what you're going
[27:17]through and take a walk with them, not, you know, text is like an easy way in, but it's not really
[27:24]the best way. But it's it's one way. Yeah. But just to connect whether it's, you know, joining a group
[27:31]and we talked about alternative grief groups. You know, a lot of people in Kate and myself were included
[27:36]like where a traditional, you know, grief group we're here in a basement, you know, just didn't
[27:41]really feel right for us. But there are all these groups for people in grief who just have a shared
[27:47]understanding of what they're going through. But they're doing things that they love or maybe they're
[27:52]loved one love. So art is one of them like there's art for grief. There's yoga for grief. There's
[27:58]walking grief groups. You can find a lot of these on Google. There's virtual grief groups that
[28:03]art center around like actions or activity or music. There's actually one study that I kept
[28:08]here that really inspired me, which is a study from Israel that found that women coping with
[28:14]sudden loss often struggled with traditional talk therapy. And instead they turn to painting and
[28:20]drawing to process their grief, creative expression and a lack of pressure to express their grief
[28:26]verbally help the women safely process emotions such as sadness, anger, guilt and confusion
[28:32]while also restoring a sense of control and agency. So there's a lot of things like that. And again,
[28:39]they're all like small steps. And the, you know, reaching for the signs and looking for that
[28:44]that can be very comforting. The turning pain into purpose, which is a way to kind of fuel
[28:51]that. And I think Kate is a beautiful example of that. She had so much energy and she has so much
[28:57]energy. But she wanted to channel that sadness into something where she was thinking like how do I
[29:03]help someone else. And so, so again, it wasn't always reaching for joy, but it was taking actions
[29:10]that that are helpful. And I love, you know, I did my grief certification. And one of the exercises
[29:17]that we talked about, which this idea of in order to mend a broken heart, you have to heal someone
[29:24]else's broken heart. So I think this plays into the turning pain into purpose. If you get yourself
[29:31]out of your own head to help someone else, you're actually helping yourself. So it was very therapeutic
[29:37]for us to lean in, to launch Penny's flight, to be able to help others in her name. That was
[29:44]incredibly therapeutic. And it brings me joy to be able to do that. Well, we could talk so much
[29:50]about it. I feel like we barely scratched the surface, but reimagined grief is so important and so
[29:55]helpful. And it's a great thing to be able to give.
[30:00]Someone who you know might need it in a time where it often feels like there's nothing you can do.
[30:05]So thank you for sharing Penny's story and thank you for opening up about your own losses for it.
[30:10]It's not easy and I wish you guys all the best.
[30:13]Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.
[30:16]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi,
[30:19]formerly momstone have time to read books.
[30:21]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[30:27]and spread the word.
[30:29]Thanks so much. Go and buy the books.