Kalina Silverman, BIG TALK + Lu Chekowsky, DON'T BUY WHAT I'M SELLING
[0:00]Welcome to Totally Booked! I'm Zibi Owens. I've interviewed more than 2,000
[0:06]authors on this show and learned endless amounts about storytelling,
[0:10]reinvention, and life itself because when you talk about books, you're really
[0:14]talking about life. So get ready to hear from today's best authors,
[0:18]the best-selling, and the not yet discovered. Come find your next great
[0:22]read and the story behind it. Enjoy! Today is a joint episode
[0:28]with two fabulous thinkers and creators, including Kalina Silverman,
[0:34]Big Talk, how to skip the small talk, make meaningful connections, and enrich your life,
[0:38]and also, Lu Chikowski. Don't buy what I'm selling. I'm breaking up with advertising
[0:43]and finally learning to love my whole fat self. Kalina Silverman's Big Talk is at
[0:50]Big Talk. She is a U.S. Fulbright ambassador and public speaker.
[0:54]What began 10 plus years ago as a passion project about skipping small talk,
[0:58]to make meaningful connections across humanity, has evolved into a global
[1:03]movement. Kalina's social media videos have reached over half a million followers and 100
[1:08]million views across platforms, and her heartfelt interviews from the LA fires and Texas floods
[1:13]earned her a shorty award for emergency relief storytelling. Her work has been
[1:17]featured by time, people, good morning America, PBS NewsHour, and more.
[1:22]Then, Lu Chikowski is a writer and Emmy award-winning creative director.
[1:26]In Lu's most recent job in the advertising industry, she was lead creative director for video
[1:30]at Facebook. Before that, Lu was SVP of brand creative and comedy central,
[1:35]where they developed campaigns for shows like The Daily Show with Trevor Noah,
[1:39]South Park, Nathan for U.N. Broad City. Previously, Lu was VP creative director at MTV,
[1:45]where they made ads for Teen Wolf, Jersey Shore, the real world, and the video music awards,
[1:50]all of it she talks about in the book. Before working in entertainment, we was a creative director
[1:54]and copywriter at Wyden and Kennedy, where she oversaw brands like Jordan, Noxima, Delta Airlines,
[2:01]and others. I hope by listening to both Kalina and Lu today, you learn a little bit more
[2:08]about talking to others about the ways in which we package information in a way that is most
[2:16]palatable, the most powerful, and what we can do with our messaging, both interpersonally and
[2:23]from a business perspective, that can really change lives, improve connections, and how we can
[2:29]use our own stories to help others really connect, which is what both these amazing women really do.
[2:36]Welcome, Kalina. Thanks so much for coming. I'm totally booked to talk about Big Talk,
[2:40]how to skip the small talk, make meaningful connections, and enrich your life. Congrats.
[2:45]It's an honor to be here. I feel like you're the very godmother of books, so it's cool to be
[2:49]talking with you finally. Well, you are a huge proponent in all the things I care about, which are
[2:56]real substantial conversations and getting past pleasantries to talk about the things that matter
[3:03]and by doing so connecting and feeling less lonely, making more meaning in the world. I mean,
[3:08]that is your whole platform, and you did it in such a brilliant way. So tell me a little more about,
[3:14]I mean, I know you outlined the whole thing in the book of how it started after a lonely
[3:18]stretch in college and just reaching out one thing at a time and how you've built this whole thing,
[3:22]but talk about that and then we'll get to how that played into the book.
[3:28]Yeah. So I actually started Big Talk over 10 years ago as a personal passion project because
[3:33]I was really lonely and I was meeting a lot of new people and going to all the events and doing
[3:37]all the things, but I remember I would come home at the end of the night and just feel this
[3:41]existential paying of loneliness. And one night I was having a Skype conversation with the
[3:46]friend back when Skype was still a thing, you know, and he was like, yeah, screw small talk and I
[3:51]came up with the name Big Talk. I didn't know what to do with it at the time. I was actually in
[3:56]school studying broadcast journalism. I thought I wanted to be a newscaster and then I was
[4:00]considering becoming a war correspondent. And I quickly realized that news was a lot about
[4:06]reporting the facts and not necessarily connecting with the people you're telling the stories about
[4:11]and I had a pretty sobering experience when my favorite journalism professor student James Foley
[4:17]was actually killed as a war correspondent and that was a huge wake up call for me. And I thought,
[4:22]you know, how can I still experience the depth of human experience and tell these stories,
[4:27]but in a way where I don't necessarily need to travel to far corners of the earth in a conflict
[4:32]zone to tell them. So I decided to try out an experiment where I could create these deep
[4:37]meaningful human connections and experiences in the everyday. And I remember I was traveling
[4:44]through Germany working on a project about the Holocaust. And on the last day, I saw a question
[4:48]written on the Berlin Wall. It said, what do you want to do before you die? So I decided to go
[4:53]out on the streets and skip small talk with strangers and ask them what do you want to do before
[4:57]you die. And I called it Big Talk. And that set me on this journey of over 10 years to where I
[5:02]am today. It's so amazing. I love this so much. I love also when your grandfather told you
[5:10]that the whole world was everyone in the world was a friend of his and you were like,
[5:13]what do you mean? And he's like, watch. And he just goes up and starts talking to everybody.
[5:18]I have my stepdad was just like that would talk to anyone. Everybody was something to hear
[5:23]and tell me your story. You know, it's so amazing when when people do that and I feel like it's
[5:28]almost becoming this lost art that is not practiced as much or not even the right attitude.
[5:33]So tell me about how your grandfather inspired this attitude.
[5:39]Yeah, I remember I was five years old visiting China for the first time on my mom's side. I'm
[5:44]Chinese. And my grandpa was like, did you know I'm friends with everyone in the entire world?
[5:49]And I was like, so way prove it to me. And we went on a walk and he just stopped and chatted with
[5:53]every single person we saw and said hi to them. And I remember believing that after that
[5:59]wow, he really is friends with everyone in the world. And he when he would visit us in America,
[6:03]I saw him do the same thing in our neighborhood. And that always left an impression on me that
[6:07]you just need to be the first person to say hello or start a conversation and people will
[6:11]respond to that. There's even this study that was conducted in Chicago on trains called
[6:17]mistakenly seeking solitude where we think everyone wants to be alone and not be approached.
[6:22]But if people are approached for conversation, everyone is left happier and better for it.
[6:26]And I always remember that. And I remember my grandpa's approach to neighborliness. And
[6:31]you know, if I'm going down the street and saying hi to someone, they don't respond. I know
[6:34]it's not reflection on me. And just then people are so in their heads these days, like you said,
[6:38]it's a lot of art. But it kind of just takes one person at a time reclaiming, reclaiming the
[6:42]Mr. Rogers neighborhood mentality. And what you do is just talk to strangers and go up and ask
[6:49]them really deep questions. And you release these videos and you basically just give everyone
[6:55]the dignity and respect that they deserve to tell their own stories, which is beautiful.
[7:01]It's really beautiful. And people rise to the occasion. Like people, when they're asked to really
[7:06]consider how they feel or what do they want to do before they die or what's the time that
[7:10]made them cry or all these questions that just make you sort of somebody you've lost that you still
[7:16]love or big questions like that. People will stop and talk to you about it. Because everyone has
[7:21]an answer to these questions. And that's the way I approach big conversations. I ask questions
[7:26]that anyone could relate to regardless of who they are, what they look like where they're from,
[7:30]because they're a human being. And it's a great tool for making connections in your neighborhood,
[7:35]making connections when you go to some sort of networking event, maybe you're a little intimidated
[7:40]by who's in the room. But then you remember we're all just a human, like no one's better or worse
[7:44]than you. Everyone has the same universal experiences. And it's kind of like armor because you
[7:48]realize that like you can be anywhere and connect with anyone. Like it doesn't matter. It creates
[7:53]this almost sense of ease in how you approach people in real releases social anxiety.
[7:58]A lot of people think, oh, like big talk, it must be for extroverts because you have to like
[8:02]to talk to people. But I actually have a lot of introverts who reach out to me and say big talk is
[8:06]exactly what I need. Because for introverts, small talk is really stressful. You're like,
[8:11]why would I make small talk about something that doesn't matter when I could just be at home
[8:13]like cat or something? You know, having a meeting full conversation with someone suddenly
[8:17]becomes a worth your time. And it matters. We don't have to ask everyone we walk up to what
[8:21]you want to do before you die. But yeah, instead of saying, I like your shirt being like, I love
[8:26]your sunny shirt. Like your energy is so warm. Like, you know, and like kind of complimenting someone
[8:32]based on something that's truly about them versus something external. That's how you unlock those
[8:36]deeper conversations. Yeah, like, and noticing when someone stands out to you and using that
[8:41]opportunity to approach them, like it could be like someone's doing an interesting activity in a
[8:45]park or there there's a man who was sitting in a suit at Starbucks. And he sits there every single
[8:50]day in a suit. And so I had to approach him and ask him about it. And I found out that he, you know,
[8:55]went through cancer recovery. He recovered from addiction. And now he wears a suit because he's
[9:00]just proud to be alive. And it was just the sweetest conversation. And so it's his way of showing up
[9:05]with dignity every day. Things like that you never would realize if you just, you know, walk by and
[9:10]you're like, why is that guy wearing a suit? That's where, you know, but instead you find out
[9:13]this beautiful story about who they are and why they do what they do. And tell me more about the
[9:18]cards. I see them behind you. So this is a good way to think about the framework for a big
[9:24]top question. So every question in here is designed to be universal, meaning anyone could be
[9:30]answered open ended. So it's not just a yes or no question. And meaningful at least it's a
[9:35]personal story reflection. And so that's the same way approach all big conversations. And we use
[9:40]these all the time at events because a lot of times people aren't comfortable making big talk
[9:45]unless it's structured. And it kind of takes the pressure off of you to ask your question and puts
[9:50]it on the card itself. But yeah, I can pull some. I can even ask you a couple if you're open to
[9:55]it. Oh, look at that. Well, let's both answer them then. Okay, cool. Okay.
[10:00]you cards. Okay. I'm actually curious. Since we already I already answered this question. What
[10:06]is something valuable your grandparents taught you? Oh, oh my gosh. So much. One of the things
[10:12]my grandmother taught me was the value of taking the time to write someone a letter with your
[10:16]thoughts and not letting it pass by. So my grandmother would hand write me a letter whenever anything
[10:25]was like, whether I had gained weight or she didn't like my boyfriend or anything. I mean, okay,
[10:30]maybe don't have to go as extreme as my grandmother, but I have all that now. And I saved them all. And
[10:36]it's so wonderful. And I think they she taught me that if you have a way you want to connect or
[10:43]a way to try to help someone write it down, don't just let the moment pass. And I try to do that.
[10:50]Anyway, that's just one of many that she taught me. That is beautiful. And it reminds me my
[10:54]grandmother used to write me letters too before she passed. And it really a lot can come out when
[10:59]you write it down versus just text or call someone. It's a whole different form of communicating.
[11:04]I'm saying writing book, but it's funny you sure that because right next to me, I have a box of
[11:10]all handwritten letters people have sent me throughout my life. You know, I've done a lot of
[11:14]disaster relief storytelling, like interviewing people's lawyers. And it makes me think of all
[11:19]like what would I save in a fire? And like really everything else is replaceable, but that box
[11:23]of handwritten letters is what I would grab first. That's right by my door right here.
[11:27]I mean, that's the first thing I do whenever anyone I love passes the way is I like take
[11:33]immediate stock of like where is do I have their handwriting? And it seems so silly. Because we
[11:39]hardly ever write things handwritten anymore. But then the other day I wrote my son a note and
[11:45]left it, you know, like have a great weekend. And anyway, I noticed that he saved it and he
[11:50]like put it in a special place. And I was like, wow, that took me two seconds. And it matters so
[11:55]much. Like, so we should all try to do those things more. I think reminder, I definitely will
[12:00]write more handwritten letters and I'll let you say that. It's been a while. So thank you.
[12:04]Yeah. See, we wouldn't have had that conversation if you hadn't have pulled that card out of the
[12:08]box. It had been any card and we could have a card or say it had been any card. I know exactly.
[12:14]But I already trust you and like you. Do you know what I mean? Like I already read your book.
[12:18]I had researched you. I feel comfortable with you. I know you're like and I feel like other people
[12:24]can get that vibe from you right away. Like your warm and approachable and you're not putting
[12:31]people on the defensive. And so it's like you want to share. But not everybody has that skill set.
[12:38]Right? Like in the wrong hand, so to speak, they might not come across as caring.
[12:44]So I feel like you need to, that's why the book is here, right? You give people
[12:49]tips on like it's almost like a user guide to conversation.
[12:52]Right. And like something sound really simple, but a lot of people don't practice them. Like
[12:56]how to be approachable, right? Like a lot of people really have unapproachable body language
[13:01]walking on the street or sitting somewhere or going to an event. Even if they actually want to be
[13:05]approached, like even I had a friend who was like, why am I not meeting anyone? And then I just
[13:11]ran into her on a walk. She was wearing all black baseball. Her AirPods in like walking really fast
[13:16]and like, oh, no wonder you don't meet anyone. You're so unapproachable.
[13:21]Oh my gosh. Like that like being able to like look out smile at people. When you meet someone
[13:27]speaking slowly, asking someone's name and then repeating it back to them to show that you really
[13:31]hurt, you know, and you see them wearing something delightful that shows that you are a fun person
[13:37]who likes to engage with the world and other people, things like that. Like even just a funky piece
[13:42]of jewelry can make you so approachable because it gives someone something to talk to you about.
[13:47]So it's really, I mean, the first of it's just awareness. Realize maybe unapproachable or approaching
[13:52]things the wrong way. And then the other thing that I think a lot of working Americans do is living,
[13:58]we live our lives like we're in this constant state of emergency, like kind of rushing
[14:03]to the next, but big talk really only happens in those quiet transitional moments,
[14:07]like waiting for a train or like sitting in your hotel lobby waiting for the next flight that's delayed.
[14:14]Like that's happened to me and then suddenly I've had all these beautiful conversations because
[14:17]I had that extra hour where like there was nothing to do. Big talk happens during those
[14:22]interstitial moments of life. So I try to enjoy it on to those rather than feel like I'm
[14:27]wasting time because that's when the magic happens. So how do you articulate
[14:32]the value in having meaningful conversations? It seems obvious, right? But when you try to quantify it
[14:40]or make it something important, like what is it about when we connect as people and share our
[14:48]stories? What does it do for us? Like I'll say something like well it makes people feel less alone,
[14:53]but like, but really what is it? Like you said, it's hard to quantify and it's hard to even
[14:59]qualify because it's this feeling. Like after I have a true big talk interaction or a spontaneous
[15:06]meaningful interaction, I feel this euphoria. It's like a high, like one just like any drug or
[15:12]anything you could do. Like it's like in a journal and rush because you feel the sense of a
[15:16]liveness and presence, especially with big talk with a stranger because you're fully present in
[15:20]that moment. There's no like past or future. You're just there talking to them. And so there's
[15:26]that value in that brief interaction, but a lot of times a conversation can lead to something
[15:32]life-changing. Like you reminding me about handwritten letters and how valuable and meaningful
[15:36]that is to your life and realizing that relationships are the most important thing to us. Like I
[15:41]am reminded of that time and time again with big talk. Or like nuggets of wisdom that
[15:46]maybe now don't have relevance, but in the future could really help you. For example, I've
[15:52]interviewed a lot of people about grief and going through devastating times and how they've overcome
[15:56]it with resilience. And I'm fortunate that I haven't had something truly devastating happen to me
[16:01]beyond what you might expect someone would experience in their life. But I always think about
[16:05]those people as kind of like my guides in the future because I know I will go through something like
[16:09]that, who knows when. But I think about them and how their wisdom will give me strength. And it's kind
[16:15]of like a comforting barrier around me that I know no matter what I go through in life. I've met
[16:20]these people who've come out and they still move forward with this grace and hope. And so things
[16:26]like that big talk gives you those unquantifiable, priceless experiences and moments that you can
[16:33]only really gather from a real human connection. And I wonder with the rise of AI as everybody's
[16:40]talking about, you know, something like this, one person to another, the value of that I feel will
[16:47]only escalate, right? Yeah, my friend once said to me that AI will only place a premium on humanity.
[16:56]So that made me feel pretty safe in my job. Like I don't feel threatened by AI because nothing
[17:03]will replace real in person human contact. Like AI will never give you that love that you
[17:10]for you that you can only get from one human to another. So I'm not worried about AI in a lot
[17:15]of what I do at least. Yeah, I worry a little. So what connection are you most longing for right now?
[17:25]It's a great question. I would say I'm longing for connection reconnecting with myself.
[17:33]I think I've been very busy as one is when they're launching a book and growing a social media
[17:39]platform as I'm sure you can relate. But I actually had a little nature again away at my mom's
[17:46]place this weekend in Topanga. And I just spent time reading. I just spent time sitting outside with
[17:52]nature. I have been very curious about animals. So that's another connection I'm interested in is
[17:59]one day having some sort of animal sanctuary. So I looked up an animal sanctuary and I drove there
[18:04]yesterday and went and looked at beautiful animals that have been saved. So I think reconnecting
[18:10]with myself in nature is something I'm kind of longing for right now. I think I've got the human thing
[18:16]down. You're like time to shut it down. I've had enough big talking. Let me like do some what
[18:25]what do they call that the sound for a sound waves sound. Forest bathing for a
[18:31]chinron yoku. That's the word. It's a Japanese word for forest bathing. There we go. You might need a
[18:37]little forest bathing in your future. I think the magic of big talk is like you never know who's the
[18:42]next person that's going to inspire you. So I never really someone who like worships like
[18:48]celebrities or things like they might have something more valuable to teach me than like the next
[18:52]stranger on the street. So that's a hard one. I think I've already spoken to her but I haven't had as
[18:58]many big talk conversations as I would like. I wish my grandmother was still alive and I could
[19:03]have that and then even more so my great great grandfather. He was a sort of diplomatic ambassador
[19:10]for the last king of boy but he was from China and I feel like he's someone I spiritually relate to
[19:16]values wise and I wish he was alive and I could have a big talk with him. I love that.
[19:22]Well Kalina thank you so much. This was so interesting and really enjoyed the book and
[19:27]just believe so wholeheartedly in what you are doing and building and I think it is just
[19:34]incredibly important. The most important thing. So thank you.
[19:38]It's an honor to talk with you today. Thank you. I hope to see you in LA.
[19:43]Okay bye. Here today with Lu Chakaski. You are so excited to be with you in person and talk to you
[19:52]about don't buy what I'm selling. I'm breaking up with advertising and finally learning to
[19:57]love my whole that self.
[20:00]Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It's been a road. It's been a road.
[20:04]Thank you for inviting us in the car with you on the road. Yes. Thanks for being there. I appreciate it.
[20:09]Okay. Tell listeners a little bit about the book and general.
[20:11]It's a book about my career in advertising and how it almost killed me. Yes.
[20:15]That's a quick version to expand. I say it's about growing up as a fat kid with a fat mom
[20:21]who had cancer and died early in my life and what that did to the trajectory of my life.
[20:26]And then falling into the media business as it was evolving quickly and being overtaken
[20:31]by algorithms and robots. And I sort of worked in almost virtually every medium from these
[20:36]papers to television ad agencies and finally my last job in the center of the universe at Facebook
[20:43]where I burnt out. So it's also a book about burning out and letting your body lead the way to
[20:49]finding out what you really need and listening to your body. So there's many themes threaded throughout
[20:54]the book that I'm making. I thought about you so many times since I read this because you have
[21:00]a line when you were trying to talk to one of the child stars and the teen, you know, vampire thing
[21:08]when you say help me understand this. And I have said that out of my kids like, oh, that's
[21:14]you know, like, hope me understand it's a good one. It's a good one. I know you said it jokingly
[21:22]like as if you were such a moron and like you so all powerful, you know, thinking that to
[21:26]sort of catch out in that way. But anyway, I'm thinking of it. I'm glad I'm glad it's useful. It's a
[21:31]good one. As you're talking about some moment at MTV when we were I was working on a show about
[21:36]teenagers who also happened to be werewolves. Some people may know the show. And it was a tried and
[21:42]true thing I said to many, many famous people. It's let's them know that you just want to understand
[21:48]why you're such an idiot and can't understand what's wrong and you want to help. And it's like a
[21:52]funny, it's a funny stance to have. Well, the whole scene, it shows us how you become the ultimate
[21:57]fixer producer. Like you make anything happen. And yet then you have the the sort of engine of the
[22:04]whole thing is your own family and not just that your mom was overweight and had cancer. But
[22:11]really like the nitty gritty of your relationship with your parents and how like I feel like I got
[22:17]to know this particular family and then how idiosyncratic they really were even with their neighbors.
[22:24]Hey, your dad with the hose like you just work in next door. Talk a little bit about your family.
[22:30]Sometimes we're in a family. You don't know that it's different or right until they like tell me about
[22:36]all of that. Yeah, I love that idea of not knowing what your what who is your family until you
[22:41]grow up and move out and you start to see other things. My family, my parents were first generation
[22:47]children of immigrants, Jewish immigrants who came over at the turn of the century and fled
[22:52]all kinds of issues in other countries and grew up in and met in Coney Island. So deep, deep New York
[22:59]roots. And I think what they got from their parents was a sense of freedom, but also a sense of
[23:05]that it's very, it could change really quickly. And so with that, there's a way to behave sort of in
[23:11]public. And then there's a way to behave in private. And I think I didn't really understand the level
[23:16]of trauma to use that word that my parents held and what that did to some sort of my understanding
[23:23]of being a child. And you know, I could play with friends, but I always had to come back home.
[23:28]I always had to check in. I always had to be accounted for. There was a real nervousness in that.
[23:33]And then as you mentioned, and as I said, my mother was a proudly fat woman sort of long before
[23:39]fat acceptance was a hashtag. I'm very grateful that that conversation has evolved. And I didn't
[23:45]really understand how my mother was different from other moms. I grew up in Florida, which was
[23:49]a place where, you know, people would often be at the beach or wearing bikinis or, you know,
[23:53]just the kind of that beachy lifestyle. And we would be at home with air conditioning on and
[23:58]watching television and kind of avoiding all of that. And I knew it was different, but I loved her
[24:03]so much. And I loved my father so much too. And I sort of looked up to them. So it was a very
[24:08]confusing way to grow up. I grew up in an environment with a lot of external inputs about what beauty
[24:13]was and what little girls needed to look like in debutant balls and all these things that I
[24:18]cheerleading. And my parents were these kind of neurotic and hilarious and troubled individuals
[24:25]navigating the American South in the 1980s. And I was just sort of watching it all and
[24:31]piecing together my own understanding of myself and in that world. And we could carve out
[24:36]just that section of the book and make it a play. I love that idea. I feel like they would be like
[24:40]you as the girl. And, you know, I just feel like it would be. Yeah. What was fun to write about
[24:45]them? I'm sure you hear this from other authors, like bringing them back to life. They broke
[24:49]it or since gone. Thank you. And it's been really exciting to bring them to life on the page.
[24:55]And even to hear you speak about them that way is really thrilling. I think it's one of the
[24:59]coolest things about working on this book. There's several characters that were really important in
[25:03]my life that are now gone. And just that sense of you now having an idea about them that is
[25:09]accurate and thrilling to like hear their live against them. How it's really cool. It's really
[25:16]cool. So the advertising through line, I also found really interesting. I worked in advertising
[25:21]back in the day a little bit. But widening Kennedy was like the holy grail of us, the advertising
[25:27]world. I wish for like a minute. And maybe they're in the room cam. But so I was very familiar
[25:32]with the whole thing. In fact, you were there and chosen as one of these what 12 students who got
[25:36]to be part of this creative engine. And then this like female centric ad agency thing that you
[25:44]started started up. And like the years are like frantic and saying that you did while you were
[25:49]really part of this other launch class was so interesting. Thank you. And just like when you got
[25:56]put on those campaigns and you were like, I'm going to get myself into what was it, the air max?
[26:02]Oh, yeah, then that make you air Jordan. Yeah, yeah, just that one. Yeah, just that one on that
[26:08]on that account. Yeah, you're all of your career up and down. But I found that so cool.
[26:14]Oh, thank you. Well, it's cool for you to have a frame of reference because I feel like as I was
[26:17]writing the book, people who are outside of the added industry. And that's actually one of the
[26:20]themes I think in points of my book is there are these people and places that manufacture all of
[26:26]this material. And I think if you're just a person living your life and a different type of work,
[26:30]you're not thinking about the advertising industry in some total and where it comes from. And
[26:34]I don't think I really ever did until I accidentally answered and add on the back page of the onion
[26:39]that got me into this ad school in 2004 at this place that I had never known about. So I was actually
[26:44]one of those people. I did not know I knew Nike's work. I knew obviously what they made for the world.
[26:49]But I didn't know the name wide and in Kennedy. That that nothing to me. I had just been on the
[26:54]receiving end of all those ads for years and years. But I didn't know there was a place where they
[26:57]they were made or that people spent their lives manufacturing this material. I just received it.
[27:03]And so for me, we've been knowing about it as a place. I felt like in as I was writing the book,
[27:08]it was like an interesting exercise to describe sort of the place that that agency held in
[27:14]people's imagination. So the fact that you had a shorthand for that, I appreciate it. Because it
[27:18]really, if you know unit, it's one of those. If you know, you know, kind of things.
[27:21]Can we talk about your body? Yes, let's talk about my body. It's on the cover of the books.
[27:26]Oh, we can talk about eating and you're feeling like the binge eating that you did. And
[27:32]you're weight getting out of control and being so uncomfortable. And how you were handling that
[27:37]discussed. Yes. I mean, as I said, I think, well, my mother's influence on my life
[27:42]and her early passing just to say, and I don't get into it too much in the book. But in the
[27:47]year that after my mother died, I gained nearly a hundred pounds. And I do write about this part
[27:51]in the book looking to food for comfort as I sort of, I think, been taught my whole life. When
[27:56]we're sad, when we're happy, we when we have something to celebrate. When we've lost, again,
[28:01]you know, again, whatever it's just like, it's it was just the push and it was like, talk about
[28:05]the engine was the engine of my life. And so when I lost my mother, I very reflexively turned
[28:10]to eating. And I'd always been in fact, to be kid and gotten teased for it as a child. But I
[28:16]think there was probably a small runway where maybe I could have some kids doing, you know,
[28:20]break out in another direction. But I lost my mom when I was 22 and just really just turned to
[28:25]food. And then it became a real issue for me. And I navigated that for years and years. And I still,
[28:31]as I say in the book, it's not a complete bot. Like, it's an ongoing thing I have to prioritize and
[28:36]think about. I'm much healthier than I've ever been. But I think what the book examines, as you know,
[28:41]from reading it, is why would an almost 300 pound woman choose to make a career in an industry that
[28:48]makes bodies for people to aspire to, you know, manufacturer's body images for people to aspire
[28:53]to that are unattainable. And I think that's really one of the main issues that the book I'm trying
[28:58]to examine is why did I choose to do that? And I think my eating issues were around my lack of
[29:05]self value for myself worth, which there's a lot of reasons why that occurred. But I also was,
[29:10]again, raised on a strong media diet in the 1970s, 80s, 90s and on. And as I mentioned decades,
[29:16]as I've been posting things online, I have women saying, I grew up in the 2000s. We had it too.
[29:20]I grew up in 2010 and we still have it too. So I don't think there's some like before and after.
[29:25]And so I think my eating and my body was a response. And sometimes it was, it served me and hurt
[29:32]me. But as a way to differentiate myself and to take power back in rooms where these images were
[29:38]held up as ideal. I do find it fun having been an advertising even for a minute to always look at
[29:45]things critically and say like, well, like, what was the brief behind this? Yeah. And so fun. We just
[29:50]decided this was the way to go. Like what room of people thought this made sense? Yeah. And you, as
[29:56]you know, like many people said, this is it. I mean, let's do it. And on.
[30:00]Oh, and you're like, watch, you're like serious?
[30:02]Yeah, I know.
[30:03]What?
[30:04]OK, the part where you are getting sick
[30:07]and realizing you have to make a change.
[30:10]And your life is really at risk here.
[30:13]Like, talk about that moment because it's a heavy moment.
[30:19]Like, what do you do when you realize you just,
[30:22]even just not making a change is dangerous?
[30:25]Yeah, it was a really frightening moment.
[30:27]I was in 2018 and I had two different health professionals
[30:31]over a course of a few months who I really trusted.
[30:34]Tell me I had to get out of my career
[30:35]and I had to work to save my life, essentially.
[30:39]And I think just as a quick note on that,
[30:41]I reached very high levels in those industries
[30:43]and the demands were 24-7.
[30:46]And as the media is changing and as the world
[30:49]was moving, the demands have returned on investment money.
[30:53]It was just a super high-pressure environment.
[30:56]And you were extremely hardworking.
[30:58]Like, don't diminish that.
[30:59]Thank you.
[31:00]It is an industry like that.
[31:01]However, you were like in it and like exploded and things.
[31:06]Yeah, I worked really hard.
[31:08]I cared a lot about my work.
[31:10]Yes, it's true.
[31:11]Yes, so I was committed and the demands and the pressure
[31:15]about literally had me feeling like just a,
[31:19]like I was combusting.
[31:20]And I think, you know, I write the scene in the book.
[31:24]It's a great relief.
[31:25]You know, one of my doctors said,
[31:26]basically, do you want to live or do you want to die?
[31:28]Is that serious?
[31:30]And it was.
[31:31]And it really turned out that once I stopped working,
[31:33]I continued to struggle with my health
[31:35]and have to really find a way back,
[31:36]not even back, a way forward.
[31:38]Because I frankly had never had a positive relationship
[31:41]with my body or to care of it in any real way.
[31:44]And there's even, you know, in my life,
[31:45]I was very, I proudly said out loud,
[31:48]I'm ahead on a pair of feet.
[31:50]I remember saying that to people like I just work
[31:52]and I think and I have a great brain and I'm creative
[31:55]and I just move around and I had no understanding
[31:59]that I had anything between those two parts of my body.
[32:01]And so what I would say is my body didn't a great favor
[32:05]because it screamed what it needed
[32:08]and there was no choice left,
[32:10]but to stop the train I had been on.
[32:13]And it really was almost like a note list.
[32:16]I said already it was kind of like a no choice choice.
[32:19]Did I want to move forward and keep living,
[32:22]which I did or did I want to really just burn out?
[32:25]So spectacularly that I would have died.
[32:28]And so I'm really grateful for the, you know,
[32:31]again, the healthcare people around me
[32:33]who just really had to reflect that back
[32:35]to me like the seriousness of what I found myself.
[32:37]Do you worry?
[32:38]Like I feel like I would worry if I wrote a book like this
[32:41]and said like, oh, I'm much better now
[32:43]and thought I would like go off the defense
[32:45]and be like, well, I'm actually not better
[32:47]but I put this book out and what do I do?
[32:50]I love that question.
[32:50]I think you might have noticed at the end,
[32:52]I say it's not a happily ever before and after story.
[32:56]And I own up to a few things that are still not perfect.
[33:00]And it was really important to me to not end
[33:03]with any kind of message.
[33:04]And I should say this too.
[33:05]Like I do not have all the answers.
[33:07]I have not figured it all out.
[33:09]And bless any way to be an author or artist in this moment
[33:13]but I'm not selling a plan.
[33:15]I'm not trying to proselytize on how to live.
[33:17]I'm just merely trying to share my experience.
[33:19]And so I think with this book,
[33:21]what I've tried to do is tie up this era of my life.
[33:25]And I would say, I think I can say quite honestly
[33:28]that I survived this era of my life.
[33:31]And I'm so proud of it
[33:32]and I'm proud that the book exists to mark that moment.
[33:35]And of course, I hope to live a thousand more years
[33:38]and with that will be new trials and new tribulations
[33:41]and new things to navigate.
[33:43]And I'm glad for that opportunity.
[33:44]So I don't have it all figured out.
[33:46]And as it comes to food, as I said already,
[33:49]I have to think about that every day of my life.
[33:51]And I will forever.
[33:52]So my assertion is that there's a way to progress
[33:56]and still be messy and still not have it all figured out.
[34:00]And I think that's a message people need to hear more too
[34:03]because of the structures of before and after.
[34:05]And I have it solved, et cetera, et cetera.
[34:07]So I'm not too worried about that.
[34:09]My hope is the book makes the case that I know I'm still
[34:12]on a journey and a road.
[34:14]And I'm certainly not telling people how to live
[34:17]or anything.
[34:18]I'm just saying, I made it.
[34:20]I made it to here.
[34:22]I really enjoyed the book.
[34:23]I love learning about you and your family
[34:26]and your career and everything that you've gone through
[34:28]and learned.
[34:29]And it's hard not to root for you reading the book.
[34:33]I really appreciate it.
[34:34]Thank you so much.
[34:35]So thank you.
[34:36]Thanks for having me.
[34:36]I appreciate it.
[34:38]Thanks.
[34:39]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi.
[34:41]Formerly, mom's don't have time to read books.
[34:44]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave her a view,
[34:47]follow me on Instagram at zibiowens
[34:50]and spread the word.
[34:51]Thanks so much.
[34:52]Oh, and buy the books.