Dr. Lucy Hone, HOW WILL I EVER GET THROUGH THIS? + Oona Metz, UNHITCHED
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to the Zibi.
[0:06]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
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[0:36]For more information, go to zibimedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens.
[0:45]We have a double episode today, which is designed to help you get through anything,
[0:50]from divorce to grief to hardship.
[0:53]So if you're having a day, like, I don't know how I'm going to get through this, or you
[0:57]just need a little bit of an upper or reminder that you can get through anything.
[1:01]This is a good episode to listen to.
[1:03]We'll take things off with Dr. Lucy Hone.
[1:05]How will I ever get through this, evidence-based tools to help you heal from hardship, grief,
[1:09]and loss?
[1:10]Dr. Hone is an adjunct fellow at the University of Canterbury and a sought-after professional
[1:14]speaker, a best-selling author, and an award-winning internationally published science educator.
[1:19]She is regularly featured in international media, including in The Guardian, Hidden Brain,
[1:23]and The Washington Post.
[1:24]Dr. Hone is a columnist for Psychology Today.
[1:27]Next up, we have Una Metz.
[1:30]By the way, after we recorded this episode, she was so nice because I commented on how
[1:36]much I loved her sweater, which was just this beautiful color of blue, which I wear all
[1:40]the time, and seemed like a really cozy fabric, and I don't know.
[1:43]I just loved her sweater.
[1:44]So, of course, I said, oh my gosh, I love your sweater.
[1:46]Where did you get it?
[1:47]Which I tend to say to people.
[1:49]And she couldn't remember where she got it, but said thank you.
[1:52]I forgot all about that exchange.
[1:54]And then, two weeks later, I'm opening the mail and thinking, did I order something
[1:59]from Dillard's, and I opened it up, and there, with a little note, was the gift of
[2:04]the sweater.
[2:05]Una Metz had sent me the sweater, and that is just the nicest thing.
[2:08]I wore it on a flight to LA.
[2:10]I was cozy and warm, and just felt so good knowing that our conversation continued
[2:15]because her kindness literally wrapped itself around me, and I am so grateful.
[2:20]Not to say you all have to get me sweaters, but it was super nice.
[2:25]Welcome, Dr. Hone.
[2:26]Thank you so much for coming on totally booked to talk about your book.
[2:29]How will I ever get through this evidence-based tools to help you heal from hardship, grief,
[2:35]and loss?
[2:36]Thank you so much.
[2:37]Thank you for having me in your beautiful podcast studio.
[2:40]Oh, you're so welcome.
[2:42]I have to say I read a bazillion books about getting through grief, fiction, nonfiction,
[2:48]whatever, and this was so powerful and amazing.
[2:53]As a book itself, but also as a tool, and I just found myself just feeling so attached
[2:59]to you as a person, because you shared so much in the book, and also thinking of so
[3:03]many people that I'm going to give this book to and everything, so congratulations.
[3:07]Thank you so much.
[3:08]That has been this book has already come out in Australia, and the UK, and the feedback
[3:14]has been that people have said to me, I've read it and gone out and bought another five
[3:18]copies for everybody else who is going through some tough things, because we're all going
[3:25]through all sorts of things.
[3:28]But you also have things in here that can just make life better.
[3:32]It doesn't even have to be suffering and then dire straits to write down lists of the
[3:38]things that make you happy, and all these things are ways to live a more happy life
[3:45]in a way.
[3:46]I think that is really true, because that is a background of all of my scientific research
[3:51]was in psychological flourishing.
[3:53]That's what I did my PhD in, so that is really what the body of knowledge is about,
[4:00]but also knowing that people go through, even if it's just everyday overwhelm and struggles,
[4:06]and there are ways of thinking acting and being that will help us navigate those really
[4:13]tough days, tough moments, and find our way to better days ahead.
[4:17]I mean, really, that is what all my work is about, is better days ahead, the promise
[4:23]and hope that we can all find the tools that work for us, and that is different for everyone,
[4:30]of course.
[4:31]Well, your book opens with an earthquake, and then you take us through not only the physical
[4:39]instability of the ground, literally moving under your feet, but then losing your daughter
[4:43]Abby.
[4:44]I'm so sorry.
[4:45]Oh my gosh, not to end her friend and your mom, and when you're 30 something, and your brother,
[4:50]oh my gosh, you've just gone through so much, and yet look at this amazing attitude,
[4:56]not to make it sound all pat and perfect, you know, but just, it's just, you know.
[5:02]I think it's funny where our lives lead us and where we end up, isn't it?
[5:09]Because I kind of think that, oddly, my gift to the world or my contribution is to be able
[5:17]to talk about hard things in a pragmatic, promising and hopefully kind of beautiful way,
[5:27]you know, that to me is really important to write stories that people can read and find
[5:34]empowering uplifting and hopeful, because when Abby died, I picked up Joan Didion's
[5:41]magical year of St. Kim, and kind of threw it across the room because it just didn't work
[5:46]for me.
[5:47]I needed to know what I could do, what would be the practical things that I could bring
[5:52]into my life immediately to give us the best chance or surviving her loss, and luckily
[6:00]I had all that resilience, psychology, to lean on, but yeah, I think it is, I like the beauty
[6:08]of this book.
[6:09]I like that people tell me it's heartwarming, somehow that's really important.
[6:15]So based on your own experience, and do you mind if we talk about Abby first?
[6:19]I mean, it's a lie, it's a talk about that, but you wrote about her at your 12 years old.
[6:24]You had just had like a little makeup party with face masks and all that, and at the last
[6:29]minute, she went in someone else's car to go to the same place as do I have a 12 year old girl
[6:34]right now, and how they'd never ended up making it, and you got that horrible phone call.
[6:39]And how, you know, there's, there are like so many things you outline here of like what
[6:43]you're not supposed to say to someone, so I'm like, oh my gosh, like, yeah, I don't want to
[6:46]to make a mistake, it's like outlined in the book, but how did you go from there to wanting
[6:52]to even contribute to the world again?
[6:54]I know you outlined it in the book, but just like, how do you live in that moment?
[6:59]Yeah, that moment when we were told that there was a policeman wanted to talk to us on the
[7:05]phone, that was the first thing.
[7:07]And then he said, I'm coming to see you, and we were in a D's funeral place, so it took
[7:13]20 minutes a time to arrive, which was just agonizing.
[7:17]And I remember my husband saying they don't come to bring you good news.
[7:21]And when you there had been an accident up below, but, of course, we never drank.
[7:27]So I do feel severe that from that moment, it's like my life half split.
[7:35]And I remember distinctly in that moment thinking, well, back to your life now, you know,
[7:40]time to sink or swim, that you haven't got in some ways, you haven't got much choice.
[7:46]And in many ways, it's time to make and hate choices, you've got to choose life.
[7:53]And I'm pretty soon after I remember having this voice in my head that said, choose life,
[7:59]not death, don't lose what you have to watch you have lost.
[8:04]And we have two beautiful now very adults, boys who are 28 and 26 now.
[8:12]And they were so young at the time, and they needed me.
[8:16]So I think my training came into gear.
[8:20]I did my masters in resilience, psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.
[8:26]And so I had the tools, but I was just determined to do everything I possibly could to
[8:33]to help our family stay together.
[8:36]And then I don't know, we've sort of find our calling, don't we, in life.
[8:40]And I am a writer.
[8:42]I've always been a writer.
[8:43]And it's how I make sense as a world.
[8:46]So I wrote a book called Resilient Grieving, Strain After Abbie Died.
[8:50]And then people get coming to me saying, I've read Resilient grieving, but nobody has died.
[8:55]I actually, can you write a book that is about all of the other big challenges
[9:01]and significant transitions in life?
[9:04]And so that's how I will ever get through this.
[9:08]That's how this book came about.
[9:11]And at the same time, because I'm an academic, I mean, you'll know I don't write as an academic in this way.
[9:19]But at the same time, there was an emerging body of work on non-death losses.
[9:26]And in D.L.'s, they call them.
[9:28]And I thought, we need a slightly more quippy better name for this.
[9:32]And I'm sure you think they are living losses, these big life transitions.
[9:39]But sadly, our universal.
[9:42]And I think people aren't very well equipped for them.
[9:45]So that is really what this is about.
[9:47]Well, giving them the tools and the hope.
[9:50]And you have so many useful tools and that you get to, you have QR codes everywhere.
[9:56]You can sign up for more research and this is just really, really amazing.
[10:00]who right in here about your TED Talk
[10:02]where you asked people to stand up
[10:04]if they had had X, Y or Z happened.
[10:06]Not all of which was personal loss,
[10:09]but just setbacks in many different ways.
[10:12]And people in the audience felt that sense of community
[10:15]because they realized how many other people had gone through it.
[10:18]And then you had a statistic later,
[10:20]I think you said 70% of people have gone through
[10:23]some sort of trauma.
[10:24]You know, some kind of potentially traumatic events
[10:27]in their adult's lifetime.
[10:29]But at the beginning of my TED Talk,
[10:31]literally there are 1500 people standing up.
[10:35]And even for me, who knows the science,
[10:38]that was quite a powerful moment
[10:41]to stand in front of them and see
[10:44]that proof that everybody struggles and suffers
[10:49]and knowing how ill-equipped they are in some ways.
[10:54]So I think that did just re-drive me on
[10:58]all of those questions are, you know,
[11:00]have you lost someone you truly loved,
[11:03]have you lived through a terrible relationship breakup,
[11:08]infertility, adoption of caution,
[11:12]miscarriage, natural disaster, migration, redundancy,
[11:16]mental illness, physical impairment, dementia.
[11:20]There is, you know, I'm not glorifying suffering.
[11:23]And I'm not saying, I'm not trying to sell suffering.
[11:28]But it has, and the research I've done to this book,
[11:30]it really has demonstrated to me
[11:33]how many people are struggling,
[11:36]and that hopelessness and helplessness
[11:40]is something that has a resilience researcher.
[11:44]I can do, I can help with because that's my jam.
[11:48]Well, you also read about resilience fatigue
[11:50]and have like maybe, maybe people are going
[11:52]a little overboard on the resilience.
[11:54]Maybe you don't, you don't want to feel resilient
[11:56]necessarily right away.
[11:57]No, and I think that's a misnomer
[12:00]that they don't really understand what resilience is.
[12:02]You know, I would define resilience in lay terms
[12:06]as, you know, crawling forward.
[12:09]Sometimes it feels like you're in quicksand.
[12:13]It's not that kind of toxic positivity or toxic resilience
[12:17]about harden up and just keep going.
[12:20]I think why people like my work is,
[12:23]that it is kind of the opposite of that.
[12:25]I'm all for lie on the couch, you know,
[12:28]acknowledge how awful it is.
[12:30]Find your ways, your individual personal ways
[12:34]to sit with the awfulness.
[12:37]Don't push it away because we know from psychology
[12:39]that doesn't work.
[12:42]Give yourself, you know, the self-compassion,
[12:44]you need my real, not perfect reset is in this book.
[12:50]And then of course we do have to pick ourselves up
[12:54]of the floor.
[12:56]And as I say in this book,
[12:57]sometimes that can be just the tiniest things.
[13:00]Like, you know, packing the kid's lunch boxes,
[13:03]tidying teaspoon draw one of my readers once said to me,
[13:09]but life is short, isn't it?
[13:11]And we are all desperate to be happier,
[13:17]live fulfilled, meaningful, connected lives.
[13:20]And so I guess this book is a bit of a road map
[13:23]for finding your personal recipe to do that.
[13:28]Well, you divide the book into, and the first half is,
[13:30]is about questions that you hear all the time.
[13:33]Like, why am I so tired?
[13:34]Why am I crying so much?
[13:35]All of those.
[13:36]And then you have questions you want to ask the rest of us.
[13:40]Or, you know, things you want us to think about.
[13:42]You have things like, is this helping or hurting me?
[13:45]And you have some joke in there too.
[13:47]I don't even know why, this comes to mind,
[13:49]but like this woman who just kept making risotto,
[13:52]she's like, it's not helping anywhere, is it?
[13:54]Yeah.
[13:54]Maybe the husband finally and when, okay, I get it,
[13:58]is this helping or is this harming me?
[14:00]But the potentially perpetual risotto making,
[14:04]when I have just been diagnosed with something awful
[14:08]and delivering and looking after everyone else
[14:13]that myself isn't helping me.
[14:15]There's some hilarious examples of the thing
[14:17]that don't necessarily help us in this,
[14:20]but the amfiring of drunk texts to your ex
[14:25]doesn't necessarily help your opportunity or chances
[14:29]of getting that divorce that you would divorce papers signed.
[14:34]So, you know, the question for much, people really like,
[14:38]I think as it makes it, it's not,
[14:40]doesn't have to be a linear read.
[14:42]You can pop in that any question.
[14:45]And I, because I'm a researcher, I like the fact
[14:49]that the first 10 questions came from research.
[14:52]And so these were the questions that people told us.
[14:57]They asked themselves, when they're going through
[15:00]any kind of tough time, you know,
[15:02]how will I ever get through this?
[15:05]Will I ever be happy again?
[15:07]Why do I feel so lonely and isolated?
[15:10]And how did this happen to me?
[15:14]And who am I now such a big question?
[15:18]That was, I think, the most emotional of all of them,
[15:21]because what is your identity mean to you?
[15:24]What is that even?
[15:25]Who are you after these things happen?
[15:27]What is, especially if someone you've lost
[15:30]is so central to who you are?
[15:32]What does that mean?
[15:33]And where is your place in the world?
[15:35]And I think, you know, if you've lost a job,
[15:38]it's the same thing.
[15:39]If your partner has dementia, it's yes, I'm saying.
[15:42]If you are estranged from somebody in your family,
[15:47]know, one in four Americans have family estrangement now.
[15:52]And so there is so much painy going on.
[15:56]And yet we can find our way through these things.
[16:02]But what it involves is a rebuilding of your identity.
[16:08]And I think what people don't really understand,
[16:11]which isn't frequently written about,
[16:13]is that when some major event comes into your life,
[16:18]it smashes apart your assumptive world.
[16:22]The assumptions that we unwittingly have constructed
[16:28]about how life will work and how we're meant to behave
[16:31]and how other people are going to behave
[16:33]and how our life path will unfold.
[16:38]Then this big transition or change comes into your world.
[16:42]And smashes all of those deeply held core beliefs apart.
[16:47]So we are left having to rebuild a new operating system,
[16:52]a new life schema, I call it in psychology.
[16:56]And that is the reforming of identity.
[17:00]You know, who am I now?
[17:01]What do I think now?
[17:02]What do I believe in?
[17:03]Who can I trust?
[17:05]All of these are any big questions,
[17:06]which I know your listeners,
[17:08]so many of them will be wrangling with.
[17:11]And the truth is though,
[17:14]that in the struggle to do that asking,
[17:18]to do what we call that deliberate rumination,
[17:22]it's actually really purposeful.
[17:24]And from that struggle is how we rebuild and grow
[17:30]and even experience post traumatic growth,
[17:34]which is so much more common than people ever imagine,
[17:37]I think.
[17:38]I love the rise and popularity of this post traumatic growth
[17:42]concept and that it doesn't have to necessarily be
[17:46]all terrible, that what if not that anyone
[17:49]would wish it any other way,
[17:51]but what if there is something that comes out of it,
[17:53]this closest to appreciation or once you know that life is short,
[18:00]do you act differently?
[18:01]Does that inform the rest of your life?
[18:03]How can you help other people know that they can come next?
[18:06]And I don't think people really know this,
[18:08]that's around that, that actually post traumatic growth
[18:11]is so much more common than post traumatic stress.
[18:16]And you and I both know that,
[18:18]that we're not talking about it's a good thing.
[18:20]None of us want to go through these things.
[18:22]But I think it is really important to understand
[18:26]that it is the struggle to rebuild your life
[18:31]in a way that sort of makes sense to you,
[18:35]to integrate the awfulness in a way
[18:38]that you can eventually sit with it and go,
[18:41]I can see that I'm changed because of this event
[18:45]and I can see that not all of it is awful,
[18:48]that actually I am so much stronger
[18:51]than I ever thought I was,
[18:53]that was at one of the five dimensions post traumatic growth.
[18:57]And I really now know who my friends are,
[19:00]I know who I am counsel,
[19:02]I know who which friendships to maybe put on pause.
[19:06]And I know what matters to me.
[19:08]So it does really change our internal
[19:12]and external operating system.
[19:14]What are your thoughts on the question?
[19:17]Why?
[19:18]Everybody seems to act like, why me?
[19:21]Why did this happen to me?
[19:22]And yet it's gonna happen to someone
[19:24]if it's not you this time.
[19:26]We are all people and nobody is like,
[19:28]oh yeah, I deserve that, right?
[19:31]So how do we make sense of that?
[19:34]That it could be us at any time.
[19:36]I mean, sometimes Instagram is just so depressing.
[19:40]I look at it, I'm like,
[19:40]there's just bad news,
[19:42]bad news are happening to me all the time
[19:43]and you can really get in a spiral about that.
[19:46]And then you think about yourself and like,
[19:49]why did that happen?
[19:50]And how do we make sense of this?
[19:53]Like, is there a rhyme or reason
[19:55]to this bad luck of life?
[19:57]Is this, have you given any thought to like,
[19:59]what do you think about yourself?
[20:00]Why? I don't know why. I think the why me question is interesting. And that actually is why at the beginning of my TED talk,
[20:06]I asked people to stand up if they had experienced any or a myriad of different losses and changes and transitions.
[20:17]And once you see everybody standing out and once I look at the research, it does become obvious that everybody struggles and suffers to some degree or another.
[20:28]And that is important because if you know that in your bones, then that starts the why me Christian.
[20:35]It's really hard to argue with that kind of evidence of 1500 people standing up in front of you acknowledging their suffering.
[20:45]And when I was standing on that little, you know, red dot of a carpet, I remember most the way people looked around and acknowledged each other.
[20:56]And I do a lot of keynote speaking. I'm here in the States speaking. And I like to at some point in my keynote, get people to do that activity.
[21:06]And it is the looking around and the acknowledgement that really I like most because it just is that silent validation that nobody gets through life.
[21:20]Scott free that everybody struggles. And if that is true, then that goes some way to sentencing the why me question because as I remember thinking, why not me and everybody struggles and suffers.
[21:38]That is the truth of being an adult. So then you have to find the self compassion and be helping or harming you question to carry on.
[21:50]If there is someone listening today and they've tuned in because they really are wondering, how am I going to get through this. Hey, this is all well and good but really they don't understand like I don't think I'm going to be able to manage the pain that I'm in right now.
[22:03]What would you say to that person?
[22:05]Right now I'd say to them be kind to yourself do what you need lower the bar. I think so often expectation really heightens the pain and misery know that you are not alone and that there are ways of thinking, acting and being that will lessen your suffering.
[22:26]They won't remove it all but they will lessen your suffering. And even more important, they will put you back in the driver's seat of your life so that you feel less of a victim and more, more empowered, more hopeful that you can get through this just never give up hope.
[22:50]Dr. Han, thank you so much.
[22:52]Thank you for inviting me and thank you to all of your listeners for their time too. I hope you lost the book.
[22:58]Yes, absolutely love. Thank you.
[23:00]Thank you so much for coming on totally booked and delighted to have you here to talk about unhinged the essential divorce guide for women.
[23:07]I am so happy to be here. This is like a dream come true for me.
[23:12]Well, I really could have used this book like 10 months years ago, but it's never too late, you know.
[23:21]Hopefully you won't need it again. Hopefully I won't need it again. I read about your own marriages and here's the thank you for that.
[23:26]You know, discuss the book. What is it? Why you? How did you become a divorce guru in the first place?
[23:31]So I've been a therapist for the last 30 years and about 16 years ago I went through my own divorce and I was leading support groups at the time and I really wish that I could be in a support group and there were none that existed.
[23:47]And so I decided at that point, well, maybe when I have enough time away from my own divorce, I will lead a group.
[23:55]And so for the past 15 years, I have led three weekly divorce support groups. So I've literally seen hundreds of women through the kind of emotional process of divorce.
[24:06]And I finally got to the point where I felt like there was so much good information coming out of those groups that I should write it down.
[24:14]And so I didn't have any writing experience or any publishing experience, but I got to work and this book was born and it's just been a dream come true.
[24:26]So what resources did you rely on when you were going through your divorce from your wife?
[24:33]Well, my friends were incredibly helpful. I've been divorced twice and the first time I had a two-year-old and there was actually something about having a two-year-old that really kept me going.
[24:45]You can't kind of lie in bed all day if you have a two-year-old, especially one who's very cheerful.
[24:50]So that helped. And also being a therapist really helped. I loved going to work and just really focusing on other people at that time.
[25:00]Just never heard to just mask your own emotions. I always wanted it.
[25:04]There were moments, but I was able to kind of compartmentalize a bit.
[25:09]Yeah. Yeah.
[25:10]So then when it came time to you helping others, especially with the group and the group format,
[25:15]what when you started where you're like, okay, well, I definitely have to cover this or this has to be a critical part.
[25:22]Well, I think one of the things that I learned when I was doing the groups is the way in which divorce is such an evolution, right?
[25:30]That it always starts out as heart-breaking and terrible and chaotic and stressful,
[25:37]but it doesn't stay there. And for many, many people, it becomes an evolution where I think especially for women that they end up feeling stronger, empowered, happier kind of at the at the tail end.
[25:52]And so that has really informed the way that I lead my groups and helping people to understand that they're not going to be stuck here forever.
[26:01]I remember when I first got divorced, someone was like, no, in like five or 10 years, it all settled out.
[26:07]And I was like five or 10 years, like I knew so down to five or 10 minutes, like I can't do this anymore.
[26:13]I'd need to be finalized fast. Yeah.
[26:16]Yeah.
[26:17]What are you hearing these days has the has the talk in your groups changed from a few years ago to now?
[26:25]Is it all the same themes, like have the times or social media, like the stressful world, like has all of that amplified the reactions to divorce or not so much?
[26:37]It's interesting because, you know, as therapists, we talk a lot amongst ourselves about what's going on in the world and how that's impacting our practice.
[26:45]And I think one of the things I'm seeing is that for people who are going through divorce, it's almost like they don't even have the, they're not talking about it in the groups
[26:54]they're not talking about the outside world. I think they don't even have the bandwidth to kind of take it all the way in and process it.
[27:02]I think the biggest change that I've been seeing in my groups in the last few years is a number of women who are in their 60s who are coming in and we do know that grade divorce is the fastest growing population of people.
[27:16]So grade divorces, sometimes defined as over 50, sometimes defined as over 65, depends on your grade comes in.
[27:25]So I know you outlined so much essential, really important information in the book. If you could pick a few things that you feel like people listening who are going through a divorce and maybe they haven't picked up a divorce book because they're just totally frantic or they're years in and wondering if things will ever get normal again or whatever.
[27:44]What are some of the things that this book will give them that they can use to settle down essentially.
[27:50]Yeah.
[27:51]I think the book, the way that I structured the book is so that there are smaller chunks of information because I know that when people are going through a divorce, they find it very difficult to read.
[28:03]So I've been told that by my patient over and over and over again. And so I really wanted to break the book down into smaller chunks of information so that they can get the information they need.
[28:15]But then also give vignettes of other people who've gone through something similar because women oftentimes feel so isolated.
[28:23]Even though so many people are going through it, they often feel like how come I'm the only one that I know who's going through it right now.
[28:31]So I do want women to know that they're not alone that there are other people out there and that it's really important that they find the resources that they need and the education they need that they are allowed to go at their own pace.
[28:46]Sometimes women feel like their spouse is hurrying them up and I think it's so important to know that you can be in some control of the not all control of the process but that you can have some control of the pace.
[29:02]So that's important to know and not to do it alone.
[29:06]How to reach out and people are out there who want to help and want to support you.
[29:12]So you had a big section on guilt and how a lot of women feel so much guilt associated whether it was their choice, not their choice, especially if they have kids but even without talking a little bit about how to manage the guilt.
[29:26]One of the things that I think is helpful for people when especially when they've initiated divorce because we know that in straight marriages 70% of those divorces are initiated by women.
[29:39]So why is that? Is that because women don't care about marriage? Is that because women's standards are too, no, not at all.
[29:47]I think oftentimes women end up initiating divorce from marriages that are already over.
[29:54]And so helping them determine who actually has left the marriage.
[30:00]oftentimes the women I see their spouse has already left in some way. They've left through infidelity,
[30:07]they've left through financial abuse, they've left through passivity, they've left through emotional
[30:13]abuse, you know, they've left the kind of spoken and unspoken vows and then left the woman
[30:20]to make the decision and have to initiate the divorce when really the marriage is kind of already
[30:26]over. The other thing that I would say is, you know, the old research about kids, because
[30:32]oftentimes women feel very guilty about their kids and what they're putting their kids through,
[30:36]I think the old research about divorce said that divorce is just bad for kids. And now what
[30:43]we know is that divorce is a transition and it's a stressor for kids and they're going to go through
[30:49]it and they may have some kind of temporary reactions to it. And that what's really bad for kids
[30:57]is conflict between parents is poor maternal mental health. So if parents are able to get along
[31:06]and as divorced people, better than they are when they're married or if people are happier,
[31:12]the parents are happier, that's going to help kids and there's so many things we can do
[31:17]to help kids with that transition. I remember, and this is probably just going back a little too far.
[31:23]My parents got divorced when I was 14 and I knew them from a lot of family divorces as well.
[31:28]And I remember at the time, my parents were like, look, here's the research.
[31:32]We're better off if you have happily divorced parents than one happily married parents.
[31:37]And at the time, I was like, really? That is not helping me to get this right.
[31:42]Is that something true? Yeah, it was helping. But it wasn't helping you through the moment.
[31:48]That's great, but could you just stay married. And what about now when you look back,
[31:52]do you think it was a good idea for them to get divorced or do you wish? Okay, okay.
[31:56]I'm very glad. Okay, okay. My kids are like, I can't believe your parents were ever married.
[32:02]What about you? How do you feel like you're? Oh my god, I can't even imagine them being married
[32:06]my parents. Yeah, I think it was a good thing that they got divorced.
[32:11]So what should people keep in mind? I mean, I know there are a lot of tips and
[32:16]how do we manage and you are so nice in the book too to be like, with kids, with hat kids.
[32:21]So you know, like here we go. But when you do have kids and like, what are some of the things to
[32:28]keep in mind? There's a lot of attention to how do you tell kids. Yes. And that is a huge thing
[32:34]to navigate. Yep. But there is a lot more after that. Right. Right. And I think people oftentimes
[32:39]feel so stressed about telling the kids and I remind them like it's really good to be thoughtful
[32:45]when you tell your kids. But also this is the first conversation you're going to have of many.
[32:51]This is not the only conversation you're going to have. So you don't have to get it all right or
[32:55]you know, you can have many, many conversations. So I think that's good. I think really taking into
[33:01]consideration each child's developmental stage and their own kind of personality, the way that
[33:08]they work in terms of setting up how the parenting time goes is really important. Oftentimes
[33:15]I'll have people who come in and they say, so we set up our schedule and the kids are going to go
[33:20]every other day to each parent. So they're going to switch every single day. And I say, how does your
[33:27]kid do with transitions? And that's a lot of transitions. And they'll say, yeah, my kid doesn't do
[33:32]very well with transitions. And I'll say, can we think about a different kind of schedule?
[33:37]So that maybe they're doing two days on two days off or two days. And as they get older,
[33:43]looking at longer stretches of time, very, very young children need to see both parents a lot
[33:49]and frequently. But older kids, the older kids get the longer they can go as a stretch.
[33:56]What about kids and new family configurations? I know you got remarried. You got your new
[34:02]spouse did not have kids. So how do you advise people? Because then you have even
[34:09]hurt sometimes more kids. Right. Yes. And new kids. Yeah. Right. Right. Right.
[34:16]Right. So my advice is to go slow. The parents should go slowly. And oftentimes I think
[34:24]parents are so excited about their own new romance. And it's so much better than the old marriage
[34:31]and they're so excited and really hopeful that the kids are going to do that too. The kids
[34:36]will be really hopeful. Oh, I have a new sibling. But oftentimes it takes much longer for the kids
[34:42]to kind of integrate. So I would say go slowly. The other thing I would say about step parenting is
[34:47]I like to use the metaphor of a bank. Like you have to put so much money into a bank of kind of
[34:54]positive interactions with step kids before you take any money out of that bank. Right. You never
[35:00]want that balance to go low. You always want to be putting in a lot of positive to the bank
[35:06]and to the step kid before you make any, you know, you're in any kind of disciplinary role or anything
[35:12]like that. Yeah. Yeah. I am now married to a step dad. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It can be a thankless
[35:20]thankless job. Yeah. As as parenting. Yes. There you go. How do you feel about being like a divorce
[35:29]expert? Does anyone ever push back and say like well, what about reconciliation or do you ever
[35:34]help people get back together or any of that? I'm like a believer in love and I'm a believer in
[35:40]marriage as long as it's working. If there's something you could say to someone who is driving in
[35:46]their car today, feeling like really hopeless, reeling, really just like wondering how they're ever
[35:53]going to get through the stores. What would you say? I would say again, don't like reach out,
[36:00]don't do it alone. If you're driving in your car by yourself, make a phone call, call somebody,
[36:06]don't do it alone and know that it is going to get better. And I know it's so hard to believe that
[36:12]in the moment. You know, you've been there. I've been there. You know, so many of us have been
[36:17]in that spot and we've kind of come out the other side. And so I would just say like, hold on
[36:24]day by day and you will get there. Well, thank you for dedicating your life to helping this group
[36:29]of people who really need help going through this time. I'm sure they are all so grateful as you can
[36:34]sort of tell and you know, it's really important work and thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for
[36:39]having me. This has been wonderful. Thank you. Unhitched. Thank you for listening to
[36:46]totally booked with Zibi, formerly momstone have time to read books. If you loved the show,
[36:52]tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at zibi Owens and spread the word. Thanks so
[36:58]so much. Go and buy the books.