Kerry Docherty, Selfish, and Jess H. Gutierrez, Adulting for Amateurs
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to the Zibi.
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[0:45]Today is a 2-in-1 episode.
[0:48]Carrie Dogharty is the author of Selfish, unlearning, reclaiming, and telling the truth.
[0:53]I interviewed Carrie Live at The Whitby, and this is the second time Carrie has been on
[0:59]my show.
[1:00]The first time was for her children's book, which we talk about in the episode.
[1:04]Carrie co-founded the lifestyle clothing brand Farity with her husband and his identical
[1:08]twin.
[1:09]A graduate of Yale University and Pepperdine Law School, she is passionate about community
[1:14]building, sustainability, and creativity.
[1:17]As I mentioned, she's the author of the children's book, Somewhere Right Now, featuring
[1:21]art by New York Times best-selling author Susie Mason.
[1:24]Actually, I met Carrie because of our shared editor for our children's books, Margaret
[1:29]Anastis, so Margaret, if you're ears were burning, this is why.
[1:34]Carrie lives with her husband and two children on the New Jersey shore, where she is constantly
[1:37]looking for seaglass.
[1:40]Jess H. Gutierrez is the author of adulting for amateurs, misadventures of a geriatric
[1:46]millennial.
[1:47]We recorded this live at The Whitby.
[1:49]Jess is a speaker and former journalist whose work has been published in Northwest Arkansas
[1:54]Times, Arkansas Democrat Gazette, Siloam Springs Herald Leader, and the fight fell
[1:59]free weekly.
[2:01]She has earned several awards from the Arkansas Press Association, and also won the fifth
[2:05]grade spelling bee, despite the fact that everyone thought that Chrissy Eaton would take
[2:08]the title.
[2:09]She lives in Northwest Arkansas with her firefighter wife, who is way cooler than she is.
[2:14]There's three wild kids, a surly bulldog named Hank, a cattle herding, Yorkie food named
[2:19]Bella, and six chickens who refuse to lay eggs.
[2:23]Welcome to Totally Book the Live.
[2:25]I'm so excited to be here with Carrie, Dr. Dave, to talk about her book Selfish, A Memoir,
[2:32]and there's a subtitle that I need my glasses for, on learning, reclaiming, and telling
[2:36]the truth.
[2:37]Congratulations.
[2:38]Thank you.
[2:43]Yay.
[2:44]Tell everybody what the book is about.
[2:45]So the book opens with my husband and I in couples therapy, negotiating our salary.
[2:50]When you work with your husband, it can be interesting, and he was sharing why he thinks
[2:55]he should make more, because he works harder.
[2:58]The brands, our clothing brand, was really his dream.
[3:01]And he said, and I just may Carrie just do what I want.
[3:05]And I said, well, why don't you do what you want?
[3:08]And he says, because I'm not selfish.
[3:11]And so that's really how the book starts.
[3:14]But that's not how little Carrie Doggerty started.
[3:16]I did not start as selfish.
[3:18]I was a very well-groomed people pleasing, type A competitive child.
[3:25]And over time, I just started to realize it wasn't working for me.
[3:30]And so this book really chronicles what happens when we start to put ourselves first.
[3:35]And the messy journey of that.
[3:37]This is not a self-help book.
[3:39]This is, I think my editor thought it was be more prescriptive, and then I gave her the first
[3:44]draft.
[3:45]And she was like, this is not a self-help book.
[3:46]I said, this is not a self-help book.
[3:48]So the book really showcases the different ways, sometimes we're self-less, and selfish,
[3:54]and then the consequences of doing that.
[3:57]So it's kind of two parts.
[3:59]One is you growing up and the backstory that you give us with your family and competitive
[4:04]sports and just who you kind of are at baseline.
[4:07]And then you take us through your marriage, particularly through the launch of the Fairview
[4:12]brand, which I don't know if anybody's been to a fairytale store or worn their clothes
[4:16]amazing.
[4:17]But that's a huge undertaking for launch, entrepreneurship, building that while building
[4:21]your family and everything.
[4:23]And it's as much almost a business story as it is a personal life story, because you
[4:28]take us into the times where the fabric was to see through and just like all these little
[4:34]moments that only you could probably be telling, which I've found absolutely fascinating.
[4:40]When you decided to talk about the personal life behind the brand, how did that go over?
[4:47]How did you decide to do that?
[4:48]Did you need anybody else's buy-in?
[4:50]Because your husband and his brother and mom are characters in the book as well.
[4:54]Yes.
[4:55]It is a very personal story, it's a very honest story, and I had read a lot of entrepreneurship
[5:00]books, founder books, and I just never felt like people were honest.
[5:06]You read about CEOs wake up at 5 a.m. and I want to be like, can I talk to your spouse?
[5:13]Please?
[5:14]I would love to hear what is the cost of fast-paced capitalism sometimes.
[5:20]And my husband and I met the first day of college and we really had to navigate building
[5:25]this brand together, what are our roles, how do we find value, place value on things?
[5:31]We're still married, happily married, but when I was starting to write this book, I really
[5:36]had to disassociate from the fact that people would read it.
[5:41]I think I was delusional.
[5:43]I thought I would hand this book to everyone and I would just get a standing ovation.
[5:50]And I think there needs to be a support group for people who write memoirs.
[5:54]And I think there needs to be a support group for people who are in memoirs who do not
[5:58]want to be in memoirs.
[6:00]And the most selfish act, and I share this at the end of the book, is writing this book.
[6:05]I think it's Esther Pearl, who wrote every memoir is an act of betrayal.
[6:10]And there are parts of this book that our company doesn't want out there.
[6:14]My husband doesn't want out there.
[6:17]My husband has been so supportive and also it's been very painful.
[6:21]So how do you square those two things?
[6:24]I therapy, repair, I think really, I think I had a very deep-seated need to feel seen in
[6:35]my relationship.
[6:37]And this book has helped me feel seen.
[6:40]And also he saw parts of me that seen seen.
[6:45]There were parts of me that there's a whole shadow side of me that I showcase in this
[6:50]book.
[6:51]And he knew that side, he just couldn't believe that I would be sharing it so publicly.
[6:56]But there's a real gift in telling the truth and the level of intimacy that can happen
[7:02]when we are so honest with each other.
[7:04]And I think the level of intimacy we have now.
[7:07]I never would have been able to get to had I not run this book.
[7:11]Well, part of the experience that you write about is not, it's not an affair with someone
[7:19]else.
[7:20]But it's a close relationship you have with another man during the marriage and what
[7:24]that does to you, to him, to everybody involved.
[7:29]And you take us literally laying on a bed.
[7:33]Like I feel like I was, why am I living, carried her and he's like, I'm like, I'm
[7:40]literally in bed with her right now.
[7:42]And so it was awesome.
[7:43]I love it.
[7:44]Because of course it's not my life.
[7:45]You know what I mean?
[7:46]Like that's why we read, right?
[7:47]It's like, oh my gosh, we got to come around with all these people's lives.
[7:50]You wonder about it.
[7:51]How was that whole experience?
[7:54]Do you feel like now that you wrote about, well maybe just explain your relationship.
[7:59]So it started off as a friendship and the character who I call bow in the book is really
[8:06]a mirror to me of my unawakened creative life.
[8:10]He was, he's a musician, he's an artist, he's, he's moody, he sings about painful things.
[8:17]And I think I was so enamored by these qualities and skill sets.
[8:22]I wanted to be moody and alchemize my pain into something beautiful.
[8:27]And I was working and building the brand and I had always wanted to be a writer.
[8:32]But over the course of my life I just pushed that creative life aside, pushed that creative
[8:36]life aside.
[8:37]And then when I, I'm at bow it did just awaken something in me that I wanted.
[8:43]And at first I didn't realize that he symbolized that to me.
[8:47]So that the relationship really came from me wanting more of that.
[8:51]And you see in the book it really chronicles the returning of myself and the awakening
[8:55]of my own creativity.
[8:57]But for a while it was very confusing to me.
[9:00]Well, I really appreciate your sharing it.
[9:03]I mean there's a lot of stuff in the book that people don't necessarily feel comfortable
[9:08]revealing and that's what makes it so good.
[9:12]And so like oh my gosh, you know, it's, and it's important right?
[9:15]I bet you worked through so much stuff so much.
[9:18]It was so healing for me honestly.
[9:20]I think this book was, it took me three years to write it and it felt like I was on
[9:25]an archaeology dig into my own mind and heart and figuring out why I was the way I was.
[9:32]And I think that's the gift of writing a memoir.
[9:36]And for me I kept thinking about I kept pushing myself, what am I not saying that needs
[9:41]to be said?
[9:43]And in order for me to be that honest I did have to just associate that there might be consequences
[9:47]from it.
[9:48]And I would say like in this scene the character, she's like, Carrie, that is not a character.
[9:53]That is your mother-in-law.
[9:55]And she's going to read the book.
[9:57]And so yes, that's been the...
[10:00]journey of of excavating my own truths while also knowing that now this is a public
[10:06]book that will be unbooked shelves for people to read.
[10:09]So when you were dealing with the launch of Ferdy, when you were driving around, scorching
[10:15]in the sun and back of like open, truly, you know, moving trucks with clothing racks and
[10:20]all of that, you were putting in your heart and soul in all your time when you were literally
[10:25]sleeping in the office.
[10:27]You're just like this was your whole life.
[10:29]It wasn't your dream.
[10:30]It was your husband's dream and you were like, I'm going to take all my other professional
[10:34]goals and my own inner longing and path and I'm just going to put it right here because
[10:40]I'm in it.
[10:41]I'm like wholeheartedly in it with him and them and a part of it.
[10:45]And yet as things took off because perhaps it wasn't your dream originally, you got a little
[10:52]bit sidelined and maybe not your opinions weren't taken as into account and like that felt
[10:58]very hurtful, like as a reader.
[11:01]How did that feel to you?
[11:03]It felt hurtful and also I understand, I mean this is my husband, the brand is my husband
[11:09]and his grandmother's child to dream and this is my dream.
[11:14]And I am so grateful that I got to, you know, I love Ferdy.
[11:19]I'm still active part of Ferdy.
[11:20]It's my first baby and also I have so much more compassion and adoration for what they
[11:25]created.
[11:26]Now that I've created something on my own too, that I can feel that in body sense of pride
[11:32]of what it means to take your dreams and see it come true.
[11:36]And I think part of my hurt in starting the company and maybe not feeling as acknowledge
[11:40]is because I had something inside of me that I was not pursuing.
[11:45]And now that I pursued it, I feel like it's really like I have so much more compassion.
[11:51]It's off the list and you're back in the van.
[11:54]I'm not fully back in the van, but was it hard to get started?
[12:00]It was so easy to write.
[12:02]And so when it came time, I had hundreds of pages of just writing.
[12:07]I didn't know what it was, but I knew essays on mothering and motherhood and entrepreneurship
[12:13]and marriage, longing, creativity.
[12:16]But I was on my book tour for my kids' book.
[12:18]A friend brought her friend and that friend happened to be an agent and I told her I had some
[12:23]adult work and she said send it to me and I sent it to her and she didn't respond for
[12:27]seven months and I thought, blue that one.
[12:29]And then eventually she came back around and said, I do think there's something here.
[12:33]Let's slowly work on a proposal.
[12:35]And so over the course of three and a half years it came to life.
[12:40]And that's when it was called The Selfish Wife.
[12:42]The Selfish Wife.
[12:43]Yes.
[12:44]I think selfish is better.
[12:45]Yeah.
[12:46]We all agree.
[12:47]Excellent.
[12:48]There's one thing about being our own hero and fulfilling our own needs and not worrying
[12:56]about hurting people.
[12:57]But then at the same time, you don't want to unnecessarily hurt anybody.
[13:00]Of course.
[13:01]Like nobody wants to hurt somebody on purpose.
[13:03]How do you, and I'm not saying there's an answer to this, stay true to what you believe
[13:08]you need deep down with the least collateral damage possible.
[13:13]Or should that not even be a goal?
[13:15]I think it's needing to be acutely aware of how things feel in your body and if things
[13:19]are aligned.
[13:21]And if it feels aligned, of course we have to consider other people's experiences and
[13:27]feelings.
[13:28]My favorite quote and I opened the book with as a therapist, Princess Hempel, who states
[13:32]the self is not an individual.
[13:35]So the self is not just the ego and just me.
[13:37]I understand that I am who I am because of who we all are, the saying in a boon to.
[13:42]We are all deeply connected and at the same time, me being the best version of myself,
[13:49]I do believe will benefit the people around me.
[13:53]It's just math.
[13:54]If I am ensuring that I am putting spoonfuls of nourishment, 10 spoonsfuls of nourishment
[14:01]into my body, I'm going to be able to give tunes, 10 spoonsfuls of nourishment out.
[14:06]And I think what we have found is so many women just give, give, give and there's nothing
[14:10]left for themselves.
[14:12]And that too has consequences, that has consequences for other young women looking up and
[14:17]seeing what it means to have a mom that is completely self-martering.
[14:21]It's we have to believe in an equanimity of if I am whole and full, I am going to be able
[14:27]to be a better service to you as well.
[14:30]Now that you're in the writing groove, are you like, okay, like what is what is next?
[14:36]What is like, do you want another project?
[14:38]Are you done with this?
[14:39]Are you like, this is my story and I told it in as much heartbreaking, granular detail
[14:45]as humanly possible?
[14:47]I, so I'm done.
[14:49]I cannot wait to write another book.
[14:51]I just can't wait.
[14:52]Well, Carrie, thank you so much.
[14:54]This is so fun.
[14:55]Thank you so much for having me.
[14:58]Now, here from Jess H. Gutierrez, welcome to Totally Booked Live.
[15:03]I am really excited to be here today with Jess H. Isn't it H. Gutierrez?
[15:08]Jess H. Gutierrez.
[15:09]I didn't want to forget the moment at all.
[15:11]Who is here from Arkansas?
[15:13]So big round of applause.
[15:15]Thank you.
[15:19]Show of hands.
[15:20]Who's been to Arkansas?
[15:21]Oh, right.
[15:22]Okay.
[15:23]There's no one.
[15:25]Well, you will feel like you have been to Arkansas after you read this book.
[15:28]So maybe you don't even need to go, but before you talk about what it's about, let me
[15:33]just say that I have never, I don't think I've ever left so hard as reading this book.
[15:37]I read it on a start to finish on an airplane, and I was embarrassing myself, like
[15:42]hysterical.
[15:43]Yeah.
[15:44]By having like what is going on, you are so funny.
[15:47]Thank you so much.
[15:48]So just know if you ever need a laugh.
[15:50]Pick this one up.
[15:51]Thank you.
[15:52]Yay.
[15:53]I'm too laugh.
[15:54]Okay.
[15:55]You made me laugh.
[15:56]You make lots of people.
[15:57]Tell everybody what the book is about.
[15:58]Okay.
[15:59]So adulting for amateurs is about, it's kind of a story about you read to age, right?
[16:05]You always think you're going to read to an age when you think you're an adult.
[16:08]And I always thought there would be a moment where I was like, this is it.
[16:11]I have three kids.
[16:12]I got married.
[16:13]I have a big girl job.
[16:14]All of the things.
[16:15]And kind of the theme that runs through it is I've never had that moment where I'm like,
[16:20]I have fully arrived.
[16:21]I have it all figured out.
[16:23]I'm there.
[16:24]You know, I've never, there's, there's supposed to be a coming of age.
[16:27]You know, I should be past that age.
[16:30]So it's kind of just about being messy and that I think that most of us are, I might
[16:34]be messier than a lot of people, but I think that we are all just playing the best version
[16:40]of an adult that we can.
[16:41]You know, and I asked my mom who I'm not allowed to tell her age, but it's 65.
[16:46]And I said, do you feel?
[16:49]And she said, well, I have a 43 year old daughter.
[16:50]I'm certainly an adult, but she's like, I have nothing figured out.
[16:54]So it's kind of that I just, I feel really okay about it though.
[17:01]So that's kind of the theme of the book.
[17:02]Yesterday my daughter was describing a woman that she was doing some class with her
[17:07]something.
[17:08]And she said, well, she's like a young person, but she's in a really, you know, she's
[17:11]an old person's body because she's like 80.
[17:13]And I was like, honey, everybody is a young person in an old person's body.
[17:17]Yeah.
[17:18]And then she was like, well, not me, me, you know, my mom, but anyway, well, and how many
[17:22]of us are still calling our moms for things that you know, like I'll call my mom for
[17:26]advice that I probably know better than she does.
[17:29]And I'm like, this is not grown up stuff, I wrote a product of genetics and day drinking
[17:35]and that got published a couple of years ago.
[17:37]But I wasn't done.
[17:38]I'm a, I'm a story writer through and through.
[17:41]And you know, essays, I take shortcuts because I write 2,000 words at a time.
[17:46]And so I realized when I was writing my first book that I had so many more stories, but
[17:51]they didn't really go in with the theme of growing up so much as kind of having arrived,
[17:56]but not having arrived, you know.
[17:58]So I just kept going, you know, we were editing my first book and I thought, I have
[18:03]so many more one time at band camp stories.
[18:07]And so I just kind of kept going.
[18:08]So that was the journey.
[18:10]And by the time we were finished editing my first book, I told my editor surprise, there's
[18:16]a whole another one.
[18:17]And so that's how this book came to be.
[18:20]And I still can't believe they're letting me do this all over.
[18:23]I don't belong in this space, but thank you for the invitation.
[18:28]Well, you start out by talking about things that everyone of a certain age, our general
[18:34]age would remember and the sort of indignities of not even having some of those things
[18:40]were like, what we used to have to do, like twirling the tape on a cassette tape or
[18:45]just little moments that like, everyone's going to be like, oh, yeah.
[18:49]I mean, I guess a slightly younger audience is not going to know what we're talking about,
[18:52]but it's still really funny.
[18:53]And you have so many examples that I sat there thinking like, how does she even remember
[18:57]all this things from before?
[18:59]Like, how did you do that?
[19:00]Did you research or do you just have like an amazing memory?
[19:03]Well, I do not have an amazing memory.
[19:05]I absolutely not.
[19:07]But I think as I got into something and I would look something up, be like, what was that
[19:11]care bear's name?
[19:12]Then I would get into something else.
[19:13]And it just kind of like, which is not important information.
[19:16]If I got rid of all the care bear names in my head, I would have so much room for useful
[19:20]things.
[19:21]But it just kind of, you know, collected on each other and I would say to someone around
[19:25]my age, which I feel like is a 10 year old before and after, you know?
[19:29]And I'd say you remember this and they're like, but do you remember this?
[19:31]And I'd be like, oh my gosh.
[19:33]And it's just like this whole rabbit hole of fun stuff.
[19:37]And I was actually like, you know, doing the thing, acting like I was talking on the
[19:42]phone the other day and my kids were like, what?
[19:44]And I was like, oh, like, you know, I'm like, what even is this, you know, but it's
[19:48]so funny, just like so many references that we all share.
[19:52]So this is a story about my life, but it's so ingrained in the pop culture and the culture
[19:58]of growing up as they'll.
[20:00]Like early 80s, 90s kid that I feel like it's relatable in that way.
[20:05]So you don't have to care about my life story because it's a pretty normal life story, right?
[20:11]But it's the way I looked at those stories. I think in the way that I told those stories
[20:15]that makes them like people remember those moments in time. So I think that that's kind of what
[20:20]makes it fun. It's harder when you're 19, 20 years old and you're poor and like you feel judged
[20:26]and you feel like you have not arrived at any place yet. You know, it's still hard sometimes
[20:32]when you're 43, but I also care less what other people think. And that is the most delicious thing
[20:37]to have ever happened in my life to be able to go sit at a pool and be in whatever I want and just
[20:43]be like, here I am. You know, that that's power. That feels good. And I think that that
[20:49]might be the best version of adulting that I have figured out so far.
[20:53]And do you think that just comes with age? Or do you think that the experiences you've lived
[20:58]led you there? I think that I hope it comes with age. But I also think that, you know, probably
[21:04]all of the embarrassing things and the being broke and the, you know, heart breaks and all of
[21:10]those things. I think eventually you do arrive at that. You know, and I think it's different ages
[21:14]for different people. And it looks different for different. But finally being okay with your like
[21:20]dumpster fire eating pizza, like a raccoon out of a dumpster self feels kind of good, you know.
[21:28]Like it's really empowering. And I think that, yeah, my experience, but I do think that like
[21:32]people find their moment. I just remember always feeling like on camera, nobody was filming me.
[21:40]Okay. No, I was not because everybody else was just worried about themselves. But it felt very
[21:45]like very naked to everyone. And like very, like I said, not arrived, not figuring it out.
[21:51]None of the things that I thought were important, you know, that's hard. It's hard being like a
[21:57]young woman. It's hard. It's hard being a young person. But, you know, like you're said, you feel
[22:02]under a lens and it's probably a lens we put on ourselves too. Like society obviously helps,
[22:07]but like I was hard on myself, you know, and now I'm just like, girl, not that's Wednesday,
[22:12]but you tried, you know, like you ordered a lot of pizza this week and that sucks, but also like
[22:18]we made it to a Saturday. And that doesn't suck. You also choose such a funny real
[22:26]degree detailed description of your marriage. And what that is like behind the curtain. And
[22:33]what it's like being married to women, what it's like dealing with kids. I mean, all of the stuff.
[22:39]Talk a little about how much, how did you decide what to reveal, what not to reveal all of that.
[22:45]Well, what's funny is I'm obviously not a private person, but my wife is a very private person.
[22:50]She's a fire captain in Northwest Arkansas, where like this, we are a bit of an anomaly where
[22:56]we live and she, you know, quiet. And I'm not. And so I'm really careful about, you know, I don't
[23:04]use your name. I don't use our kids names. I mean, our people obviously know, but I, in the beginning,
[23:10]when I was writing stories, I would say, is this story okay? Is this story okay? Is this story okay?
[23:14]And she finally told me, listen, none of these are okay, but you're gonna write them. And she just
[23:20]trusts me to be as respectful as her as possible. And so I try to do that with all of my stories
[23:26]because when I say memoir, this is not like a real in-depth dive of like, it's funny stories.
[23:32]So my goal is kind of to make myself the joke in all of the stories because it's funny. So like,
[23:39]anything that happens with my spouse, not in real life, let's, can we, it's not always my fault.
[23:45]But in the book, it's like I'm the funny one. I'm the one that messed up. I'm the one that has
[23:50]contacts on my boobs when we're trying to like get frisky in the eight minutes that we have.
[23:55]And I think that like the fact that we're a queer couple living in Arkansas, I think that people
[24:00]sometimes don't know what that looks like. And so disappointingly, we are the most boring,
[24:06]vanilla human beings alive. I mean, you know, and I think that when people read their story,
[24:11]they're like, oh my god, it's just like me and my husband, like we're not. You know, it's just like
[24:15]day, we're doing the thing, we're feeding the kids, we're doing the jobs, and we're in love like
[24:20]crazy and all of the things. But like, being led is the least interesting part about us. And
[24:27]that, you know, I mean, I just think that that always kind of surprises people because the stories
[24:31]are the exact story that someone else would write in a relationship that looks more based on like
[24:37]the traditional model. So I'm like, oh my gosh, it's no different with a woman. I'm like,
[24:41]it is no different. The date, it's the same. It looks the same. Yeah, you know. But yeah,
[24:47]I'm very careful. I'm like, I do know when I go too far. I'm like, so this one, she's like,
[24:51]nope. And I'm like, okay, no, we do, there is a hard line then. I, yes, I'll stay on this.
[24:56]So do her colleagues at the firehouse not actually know she's married to you? They do. Oh, yes,
[25:02]because I'm a force. They know. And they're spouses. It's mostly men that work at her fire department.
[25:08]We still are. They're women in Northwest Arkansas firefighters, but very few. And they are glass
[25:15]ceiling ladies. They're amazing. But their wives have all read the book. And since they've
[25:20]and many of the firemen have listened to the audio book because it's in the car. And they're like,
[25:26]oh my God. And Vanessa's like, we're not, we're not doing this guys. We're not doing this. Yeah.
[25:32]She's really proud of it. But yeah, but she's like, oh my gosh, yes, really? I'm like, really? Yeah.
[25:37]Yeah, I got it. Yes. Sorry. Kind of. So are you continuing to crank out content? Do you have
[25:44]a whole other one ready to go now? I do. I always have another one ready to go. Yeah.
[25:50]Like, I'm a, someone called me prolific one time, which was such a compliment. But for me,
[25:56]I'm just like, I just, I just keep going. Like, it's, it's how it works in my brain. I just
[26:02]keep writing. I love it. So I have a fire that like, when I feel like I have to write something,
[26:08]I'm going to write it on a napkin or receipt. Like, I've, I've loved it forever. So yeah,
[26:13]so there's no like writing practice. Sorry. No. No. I mean, my, my real, my full-time job,
[26:20]I'm a respiratory therapist that specializes in neonates. And I teach at a community college. Like,
[26:27]writing is not my real life. You know, like, this is my secret. Like, my little thing that I do
[26:34]for me that is just really, I love so much. You know, this has been my passion since I was little.
[26:40]Yeah, there's always another one. I think it's impossible not to root for you after reading this
[26:45]book. Thank you. The last book, which I also, you know, we talked about that at the time. But
[26:50]all of the things that go wrong are so relatable. Maybe the same things haven't happened to us,
[26:54]but nothing is perfect. We all have these moments where, you know, maybe we don't want everybody
[27:00]to see, but these are the things. And that's why it's so funny because everybody can relate. So
[27:05]Jess, I just want to say thank you for putting it all out there about yourself so that the rest
[27:09]of us can enjoy it, but also feel a little better about ourselves. So that's nice. Thank you. Thank you so
[27:14]much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi, formerly mom's don't have time
[27:20]to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at
[27:26]Zibi Owens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Go and buy the books.