Rosie Walsh and Kelly Yang

[1:17]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and, obviously, podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens. Today is a two in one episode with two fabulous authors. First up, Rosie Walsh is the author of the one day you were my husband. Rosie has lived and traveled all over the world working as a documentary producer and writer. Her two previous novels, ghosted and the love of my life, were New York Times bestsellers and have sold nearly 2,000,000 copies worldwide. The one day you are my husband is her third novel. She lives in Devon, UK with her partner and two children. Welcome, Rosie. I am so excited to have you back after a couple years, to talk about your latest book, which per usual is filled with twists and turns and heartbreak and emotion and all the good things that you look for in a book. Why don't you tell listeners

[2:42]Rosie Walsh: what it's about? Of course. And it's lovely to be here. It sort of feels like having a chat with an old friend now. Yeah, so The One Day You Were My Husband, I mean, I sort of think all of my books really, I can't start writing them unless I've got pretty much like a one line elevator pitch. And the elevator pitch for this one was two people get married on a beach in Thailand. They're dancing under a starlit sky when suddenly the beach is filled with armed men who take the groom away, never to be seen again. That's what I started with. And for a long time, that's all I had.

[3:15]Zibby Owens: Thankfully, there is now a whole very dramatic story behind why he was taken away and what happened at the time and then what happens now, which is about twelve years later. Wow. Well, as I said, so many twists. We learn all about Johan and the backstory of him, his mother, his career. I feel like I can't talk about this book without giving so much away because everything unfolds over time when paths start crossing again in the future. But the feeling that you manufacture or recreate rather of that abandonment and confusion and shock and years of not understanding. I mean, it takes me back to Ghost again with like this not being able to get over this when

[4:03]Rosie Walsh: people do things that don't make sense, really, that's really the crux of it. Yeah, yeah. And when I think particularly when you've gone from, and it was, I guess it was the same also in The Love of My Life that came after Ghosted, Leo and Emma are incredibly happy when suddenly he discovers his wife isn't, literally isn't even called Emma. Yes. And the same with Sarah and Eddie in Ghosted, they go from being absolutely madly in love, can't bed be apart for a moment to suddenly he is nowhere. And this one was different. We get to see that suddenly a huge shift has happened, but it's not within either of their control. It's not like one of them sort of gone off and done a weird thing or discovered something about the other. It's literally, he is physically removed from this beach, which I spent probably only three days on. To be honest, after the first two days, I was like, I think the third day is pushing it, but I don't actually need to be here for three days. It was fine. Used the time to do a bit of writing. But yeah, this beach that I will for the rest of my life remember, just remember standing on at that time of night, just trying to just listening, just doing the stuff that I, as a writer, do, listening to all of the sounds behind me in the sort of jungle area and from the sea and the bar in the little resort, smelling the air, trying to imagine the absolute horror of being married, of having just got married to somebody who you love more than you can describe. And to then watch them being taken away by a convoy of yelling armed men. Most writers start at the beginning. And so that first scene, the prologue or chapter one, it is normally the chapter that has been rewritten and refined the most. It's received more attention than any other chapter. Certainly that was the case with my one right until the very final pass where I wasn't even meant to be editing it anymore. Was literally just meant to be checking all of the stuff that they had changed in the copy edit. Even at the very final pass, I was like, I need a bit more drama. I need to make this slightly more horrifying. But you know, such is the nature of writing, I guess, you know, all of us, we're just layering and layering and layering until we have achieved with maximum effect the thing that we set out to achieve. You do that beautifully. And it's not just that you introduce something that we have to spend the rest of the book figuring out, right? It's not just something that's unimaginable

[6:30]Zibby Owens: because you root the rest of the story in the every day of life with kids and the fear you have over your kids. And in this case, they were prematurely born twins to a doctor who is well aware of every breath taken. But as parents, we're all sort of always holding our breath as we hope our kids can get through each day and all of that. But anyway, you go through that and the fear of losing them in many ways as the book goes forward.

[7:04]Rosie Walsh: Then My books are so hard to talk about. Right. I'm like Can't actually say anything really.

[7:11]Zibby Owens: But it's still, you know, the fierce mother love and also the sandwich generation piece of it with her father and his Alzheimer's, which you write about also so beautifully and devastatingly and till things sort of change in that regard as well. And just the heartbreak of sort of everybody you love feels like at any moment that they're all like slipping away in one way or another in this book. And yet such is life at times, isn't it?

[7:42]Rosie Walsh: Yet such is life. Obviously in a novel, I guess all of the catastrophes have to happen at once. And yet, I don't know about your life, but certainly that has been my experience at times. It's like, No, how many terrible things can happen at once? And I sometimes think, this is something I often talk about, I've never studied creative writing, I have no sense of people talk about, there's all these narrative arcs and the problem and the midpoint twist and the peak of this and the resolution and whatever. I can't go there. It would confuse my brain and I just do what I do and keep on doing it until it feels right. I'm just using my gut instinct. Yet, I sort of think probably if somebody who understood all of this sort of narrative structure theory were to look at it, they would probably say, Oh yes, this is a point where this crisis meets this crisis and that crisis, and this thing happens and then it resolves. Possibly there are too many crises.

[8:43]Zibby Owens: Definitely a lot of crises, definitely. Yeah, such is life.

[8:47]Rosie Walsh: And actually, sort of quite there is a terrible, well actually this is something I can talk about, there's a terrible moment for Carrie where she, after Johan is taken away without explanation by armed men, she gets back to Bangkok to try and find out what on earth happened to him and she goes to an embassy, they can't help her. She goes to another embassy, they can't help her. And in the interim, she's completely ripped off by a taxi driver who spends forty minutes driving around with her, judges her small fortune, and then drops her three blocks down the road. And in the middle of that, she's just standing at this sort of busy traffic intersection, just almost sort of shutting down. And that's the point at which she realizes that her period is starting, which was not a detail I had planned, but it just arrived because isn that what always happens? Yes. You know, just when we feel that our resilience is gone, is broken, something else happens.

[9:40]Zibby Owens: So, there s a lot of that, but I guess that s how fiction works. Well, I feel like the one thing that you do throughout the book and always really is this notion of trust. And as a reader, we then are questioning literally every character. You know, is her mom on her side or not? Like, let's follow the track of just her relationship with her mom, which has lots of twists and turns and her sister and her dad and her dad's wife. And by the end of it, I'm just like, who can I trust in this whole book? Like, is the kid gonna turn on her? What is Maeve up to? Like, who actually on her side? Like what is next? But I feel like going through life, going through this book and not being able to trust a soul, like, that is so destabilizing. How how do you how do you make sense of the world if you can't even trust the the foundation of your life?

[10:39]Rosie Walsh: Yeah, it's interesting that you picked up on that. I think it was Lizzie, my agent, but it might have been one of my editors. But I think it was Lizzie who, a late read, long before we took the manuscript to my publishers, think I it was her who said, you know, these final scenes for Carrie are pretty awful because there is almost nobody left. Yes. Person after person after person she has discovered has let her down and none of them the people you would expect. How do we feel about that? Is that okay? But I sort of think that's the conclusion she's already reached anyway. And I think the reason that that was okay and wasn't too big was that when we meet her at the very beginning, she's actually already, after many years, you know, dealing with the traumatic after effects of, you know, certainly what happened in Thailand, then years later when she met somebody else, married them and had premature children and living with them in Nicu for like six months. When we meet her at the beginning of the novel in the present day, she's actually finally sort of beginning to move through all of that and past it. So I guess my response when that was flagged up, is this almost more than one person can take? Was no, because from the very beginning, Kerry is an extraordinary woman. And having been reduced to smashed to smithereens really by the circumstances of her life that are all beyond her control when we first meet her. She's kind of on the rise again. And so I think for me that made it still plausible that she could survive on this because she was already in a resourced state when this present day nightmare kicks off, which is when she discovers Johan is no longer in Thailand, no longer incarcerated, and a whole chain of catastrophic events are kicked off again. Think when that starts, she's in a resource state, which is why she comes out in the way that she does, which I won't talk about again.

[12:35]Zibby Owens: Well, it's not just that she comes out over the course of the book, but you have her as a healer, right? She's a doctor. She's like a bad ass doctor. She's a bad ass. Right? Like, she's not just like, Oh, I could get out of bed again. It's like, no, and now I'm doing this level and dah, dah. I'm like, I don't even know what these all refer to, but you know, this level and this, it's amazing. She's like not letting go really of what she can give back, even though she would be totally excused to wallow. Like if she wants to stay in bed, I give her an, I sanction that, that's okay. She doesn't stay in bed, she heals.

[13:14]Rosie Walsh: She does. And I think, I mean, to a certain extent, I think that's part and parcel of life as a doctor or a surgeon, isn't it? And I think that's why finally, finally, the medical world has kind of begun to turn its attention on the mental and physical well-being of its practitioners, because nine and a half out of 10 have had no opportunity whatsoever to deal with any of the stuff that's happened to them in their lives. I mean, that job within, in and of itself, as Carrie says, can bring a daily buffet of trauma and death. So yeah, part of it, I think is just the carry that I dreamed up from the beginning, this extraordinary woman. Part of it, I think is just the inherent nature of working in that field. And I think, mean, God knows how you navigate being a doctor these days, with the far greater understanding we have of our own nervous systems and mental health and physical health. I think that it must be a lot harder for them these days to square away. Yep, nope, still no self care. Yep. Still no space for me. Still no chance to recover or repair what happened yesterday.

[14:23]Zibby Owens: And in addition to not repairing them, just having to go home and deal with all the immediate crises of the kids, which they don't care what you've been through ever. My

[14:33]Rosie Walsh: dear friend, Hannah, who helped me with a hell of a lot of, I mean, God, the amount of time that poor woman gave me, she has three kids and is a consultant surgeon and her husband is also a consultant, not a surgeon. And there was one point at which all three of her kids were going to different schools. As it is at the moment, they're going to two different schools. She doesn't have any hired help or anything. I have genuinely no understanding still having been friends with her most of our lives, how she carries it off and is generally sane, level, calm, competent. I spent time shadowing her in the hospital, took months and months and months to get the relevant permissions, but I did eventually get in and get to watch surgeries and observe her in clinic. God, so many people so generously allowing me to be in there, given that some of them were receiving the worst, worst news. But just watching her, just unflinching, people being, well, I guess I can't go into what I saw and observed, but just a lot of challenging conversations and situations. And at the end of the day, she was just herself. I gave her a lift down to where her car's parked because obviously even as a consultant surgeon, she can't get a car parking space at her own hospital. I gave her a lift down the road and she was just her usual, very funny self. They were a different type of human being to me. Yes. And I have nothing but the greatest admiration for them. I feel like your choice of character name in Carrie is so apt because of all of the things that she actually is carrying at once. I haven't thought of that. To me, it's just the name of like a really brilliant badass woman, but you're right. Yeah. She carries so much in this novel. And

[16:24]Zibby Owens: I'm assuming, but maybe I'm wrong, that you did not shadow somebody in a Thai prison, but maybe you did.

[16:33]Rosie Walsh: I did not. I did go to Thailand. I was about to say twice, but I didn't know. Went to Stockholm twice. I went to Thailand and I found a fixer out there through contacts and he didn't take me into prisons. I didn't I I toyed with the idea of going down the road of obtaining permission, I worked in I was a tele producer for years, working up from the lower ranks up to the level that I left at. I know how much it takes to gain access to those kind of institutions. It's months, sometimes years of access work and I didn't have that because part of my motivation for going to Thailand was to actually figure out what on earth my story was because that is how I plot my books, I go somewhere. But yeah, I decided not to try and get access to a prison partly because it would have taken forever and I needed to go to Thailand yesterday so that I could start writing a book. But partly because I think also I know my own limits. Like most of us, I'm a woman who's experienced a lot of difficult things in life and at that time, my daughter was still only she was just a bit past one. And I just wasn't sufficiently internally resourced to be wandering around a tight prison. And I think actually my instinct was correct because just getting in as close as I did, I wasn't literally just standing by the gate. Were able to go in and get up to the limit of where you can go if you're on-site, not going kind of behind the scenes, so to speak. Actually, that was more than enough. It was more than enough. That coupled with the hundreds and hundreds of pages of info and watching programmes and interviewing people. Actually felt that being there is enough. Actually, for me, just the worst prison of all, Bang Kwang, just standing at the front gate before we even moved any further was, for me, I don't know, just for my system, it was horrifying. Just literally the tiny bit that I could see through the bars of the main entrance gate, that was more than enough. Being in the other areas that I did access, it was plenty. Even though I often talk about in my process about how I want the specifics to tiny details, I had plenty of that in the bits that I did access. So yes, even though detail is important, actually, more a feeling, I think.

[19:11]Zibby Owens: Yeah, that makes sense. Rosie, you've mentioned a couple of times the difficult things in your past and I know that we've already talked about some, but do you want to share or would you mind sharing? Like what are some of the hardest moments that you've overcome that inform your writing?

[19:31]Rosie Walsh: Gosh, where would I begin? I mean, I'd put motherhood up there. Much as it is the greatest sort of enjoy of my life, I would certainly I think some women are natural mothers, some women are not, I'm not. I think there are very clear reasons for that if I look at my own past, which I won't go into here, but you know, I think some of the things that carries up against us as a mother, I am too, and that's been very challenging, at times a greater challenge than I felt that I could rise to. Yeah, I mean, think it's such an interesting question because Carrie does overcome a huge amount and actually, you know, I have too. Perhaps some of that resilience is innate in me and I hadn't seen it. It's such an interesting question. I have overcome a life or death eating disorder. It continues to be daily work, and very severe life threatening illness. And I think all of those things require a lot of practical work, a lot of physical and logistical work, but also a lot of emotional work. And I guess because I have been willing to show up and do that work, I have come through. Actually right now I'm really thriving, much I guess as is Carrie. I'm sort of very much where Carrie is, at the beginning or the end of the book. But it's, I think for me, overcoming challenges has been such a long game and one that is not about reaching a destination, but about showing up every single day in the way that we see Carrie doing in the book. Yeah, it's, as I often say, when I'm talking to fellows from my sort of those parts of my life, I have to look at my progress as a human being in terms of those tiny Lego building blocks. Just the two are. The two are. Possibly even the one are. And it's just that tiny little two blobs. And every single day, I need to show up, put those blobs onto the wall, those two little blobs onto the wall, and it looks like nothing. I stand back and I can't see a single thing. But if I'm just looking at it six months later, it's like, Oh, okay, that wall has grown. That's a bigger wall than it was actually. And the only reason that's there is because I've continued to show up and put those tiny blocks on even when I haven't wanted to and it's felt pointless. Yeah.

[22:10]Zibby Owens: Well, thank you. I mean, that is such a great metaphor because that's a kind of all we can do to get past the things. And sometimes the one block can feel insurmountable, right? But you're doing it. It's not fake. Yeah. But it doesn't And that's amazing. I feel like that context also puts some of Carrie's recovery into context itself. You know, even when the people around her say things like, but, you were doing so well. I didn't wanna tell you this or, you know, you were, and even for Johan who, I mean, not to, you know, go into things, but how he has to heal in a way, well, I'll leave it, but you know.

[22:56]Rosie Walsh: I don't think it's a spoiler to say that he has to do an extraordinary amount of healing. Okay, has He to Yes, do

[23:03]Zibby Owens: physically, emotionally, and you know, you feel that progress as it goes. And now, you know, it makes a little more sense in a way, not sense, but I don't know, feels deeper and more resonant. So thank you. And I'm sorry you've had all of that, but how great that you just keep building and know that that's what it takes, right?

[23:27]Rosie Walsh: Don't because get Tiny Lego block. Tiny Lego blocks. Amazing. That's what it takes to create a book as well, I think. Yes. Tiny Lego block. And some writers are very, you know, very capable of laying down four larger blocks in a day. I'm not one of them in that subsea fine. My

[23:44]Zibby Owens: two is enough. Well, you're two certainly from the writing world has yielded these amazing novels. So whatever you're doing with the Legos is certainly working. I mean, a of people are putting little Lego blocks together and they're just getting a collapsed, I don't even know. I I watch Lego Masters and some of those things just do not work no matter how much time you put in.

[24:05]Rosie Walsh: You know- That is true. It's working. That is true. It's funny. I often say, you know, anyone can write a book as long as they show up, but I guess that doesn't

[24:17]Zibby Owens: Did you start another book already or no? Oops. I did.

[24:21]Rosie Walsh: I did. And I'm really, really excited about this one. I've had my first research trip, which was to Lisbon, which, and by the end, it was one of those trips, I mean, to be honest, all of my trips are like this, but it probably more than any other one I've had so far. Was one of those trips where by the end I was like Googling property prices in the area. Thankfully, I cannot afford to live there because I'm certainly not the only person who's had the idea of moving to Lisbon. It's just such an extraordinary city. Don't actually think I could have loved it more. I pitched my elevator pitch. I had my translation agents put on this lovely party for me last week. Was London Book Fair. Yes. So editors and scouts and agents from around the world were all in London last week. And there was a lovely party put on for all of my translation and US and UK publishers to to gather and celebrate the the one day you my husband. And whilst I was there, I pitched pitched I did my elevator pitch to my German editor who I've been working with for years since before I even wrote Onto My Own Name and I think my new Dutch publisher. And when I pitched it to her, she actually jumped up and down on the spot, which is about, you know, that's about the best possible reaction I could have hoped for. Obviously, can't share that now. I'm trying to think, is there anything juicy I can share? Yeah, it involves a senior diplomat. That's about all I can do. And I got to meet a bunch of them in Lisbon, and then I'm flying out to The States next month because I can't even begin to tell you why because I don't actually know, it's just how my brain works. I realise that the whole thing needs to take place in this place, I won't say, where in Chicago. Having been to Chicago literally for twenty four hours, many years ago when I was working on a documentary, I was there overnight. It was the coldest I've ever been in my life. I remember a lovely restaurant and having great fries with a burger. For whatever reason, it's not in my mind, that's why I'm off therapy. That

[26:26]Zibby Owens: doesn't have to be some of the guns. There you go.

[26:29]Rosie Walsh: There you go. Oh my gosh. Well I do wanna add, that documentary was insane. It was about, oh God, don't know. I don't know if your readers want to hear about this, but about women taking other women's babies when they're still in utero. Yeah, pretty gory, brutal, pretty appalling subject matter actually. But there was something like that had happened somewhere just outside Chicago in a tiny town in Illinois. The woman who'd done it was thankfully in a jail near there. We had just gone into Chicago for an evening to interview a forensic psychologist. So that's definitely not what my story is about. I wonder if that's pushing the human experience to its most extreme limit. I wonder if perhaps that had informed my brain's subconscious decision that we needed to go to Chicago. I'm sure wonderful things happen in Chicago too.

[27:25]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. Well, one of these days, hopefully we will reconnect in person I would love that. Me too. My friend across the world here. Yes, so many years we've been chatting. I know. And in that time I've written about seven books and you've just built this extraordinary empire. I mean, definitely hats off to you Zibby. Hat back to you too, just written about seven books. Oh my gosh, are you kidding me? Anyway, should be continued in person. Congratulations. Thank you for showing up in every way today. So thank you. Thank you so much. Best of luck. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated, but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand mark up. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[30:47]Zibby Owens: Welcome to Totally Booked Live at the Whitby Hotel. Thrilled to be here with Kelly Yang, the author of The Take. Congratulations, Kelly. Thank you. Thank

[30:58]Rosie Walsh: you so much.

[31:00]Zibby Owens: I am personally so excited because my son and I read Kelly's. Kelly is well known for her younger readers' books. Front Desk is the first one. I read the whole thing out loud to my son last summer, two summers ago, and we have been huge fans. And then I found out she had an adult book coming out, and I was like, oh my gosh. I have to interview her, and here we are. Yes. Here we are. Yay. Oh my gosh. I'm gonna just quickly read your bio. Okay. So everybody knows. Kelly Yang is the number one New York Times bestselling author of the Front Desk series, New From Here, Finally Seen, Finally Heard, young adult novels Parachutes and Private Label, and picture books Yes We Will and Little Bird, Leila. Her books have earned multiple awards, including the 2019 AP ALA Award for Children's Literature and the Strega Prize and have been featured on multiple best of the year lists. Front Desk has been named one of the best books of the twenty first century by Kirkus Reviews. I would agree with that. In addition, Kelly has written screenplays and television pilots for Netflix, CBS Studios, and The CW. Kelly immigrated to The United States when she was six years old and grew up in Southern California. She went to college at the age of 13 and is a graduate of UC Berkeley and Harvard Law School, experience that provides her a unique perspective on aging. The Take is her first adult novel. Okay.

[32:26]Kelly Yang: Go back to college at 13. That's always such a mortifying detail. Explain. Oh, well, I mean, I Yeah. I did unfortunately have that experience because I was moving around a lot and I was just not really I wasn't really liking high school. And my parents and I thought, you know what, maybe you should take this opportunity, go to college early. There was an opportunity in California, and I took it, but it put me on a different trajectory forever.

[32:57]Zibby Owens: So I don't recommend it for people. So you graduated college when you were 17? Yes. Wow. Yeah. Okay. I mean, Front Desk, we'll get to the take, but Front Desk, why don't you talk a little bit about Front Desk and how it relates to Okay. So Front Desk is my middle grade series,

[33:15]Kelly Yang: and it was really birthed because my son, Elliot, who was eight years old at the time, wasn't reading. And not only was he not reading, but he'd had no idea how I grew up, which is that I grew up helping my parents manage the front desk of a motel. He didn't know because growing up, I didn't have a book like this, so I always felt ashamed of it. I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell any of my friends. I didn't tell anyone anywhere, really. Not even, like, my own family because I looked at this kid, and he had no idea about my childhood. So that summer, I just decided I was gonna kill Two Birds with One Stone and try to write this book that would get him to read and tell him about my life, really, which was kind of embarrassing, but also so not embarrassing. I wanted him to feel all of the all of the joy and pride. You know? It was an amazing experience. And at the end of the summer, he said, you gotta turn this into a book, mom. Aw. Yeah. And did he actually read it? He oh my god. He became such a reader. He's yeah. See, this is all you have to do, guys.

[34:18]Zibby Owens: Write a number one best selling book and your kids might read. -Yes.

[34:23]Kelly Yang: -Might. The last part is way more important than the first part.

[34:27]Zibby Owens: -Oh, my gosh. Well, there are moments from front desk that will stay with me forever, and one is when and I promise I'll talk about the take, but when one of the guests leaves her jeans behind Oh, yes. And I know it's not you, but the main character I forget her name now. Mia. Mia, of course. Mia puts on the jeans and starts wearing them, and then eventually it becomes clear that they weren't her jeans and she's mortified. Anyway, it's the whole thing. Just the longing and the striving, and also how helpful she is and how

[34:57]Kelly Yang: she grew up so beyond her years, which you obviously did as well. It's just amazing. Yeah. I mean, was thrust into this environment where I had to pretend to be an adult at the age of eight, and really people didn't wanna take me seriously. And then later on in college, you know, trying to be a college student when I was a teenager, and I just wanted to go to the mall and get some ice cream. So at every state I feel like I've never been the right age at any point in my life until now. Now I find I finally feel like I'm the right age now.

[35:27]Zibby Owens: Can you share how old are you? I'm 41. Amazing. Yes. Okay. But you're going to, like, your fiftieth college reunion or something. Okay. So speaking of aging, The The Take Take really talks a lot about this. It's all about this, in fact. So why don't you share what The Take is about? -Yeah. So The Take is about two women who are sick of being told that their time is not now or that their time is almost up.

[35:56]Kelly Yang: They're both being judged by their age a lot. One, we have Maggie Wang, who is a 23 year old struggling Asian American writer, and she's being told, You don't have enough life experience to write a book. How could you possibly have anything worth writing about at your age? And then we have Ingrid Parker, who is in her fifties. She is a really powerful female Hollywood producer, but she's being told, Your time is kinda up. You know? You're losing your relevancy. It's time to move on. We got newer, cooler, hotter producers. And so these two women decide they're gonna change the rules on aging by joining to be part of this very experimental blood transfusion medical procedure where they're essentially swapping their blood. So Ingrid gets to de age by about ten years. Unfortunately, Maggie has to age by about ten years, but she also gets $3,000,000 and she looks up to Ingrid because Ingrid has everything she wants. So she's hoping that the time they spend together is going to give her a lot of mentorship and that maybe will help her crack her career.

[37:02]Zibby Owens: By the way, in the beginning of the book, you have Maggie and her boyfriend at the time who very quickly cheats on her, but I don't think it's giving it's so early. Whatever, you'll find out. It's okay. And she goes and watches him in conversation with one of their mentors who has just not loved her own book at this small bookstore in LA, and I'm convinced it's mine. Did you model it after my store? No, no, I And I was like, That's so nice of Kelly. She really could have put the names. That's so funny. No. Okay. Alright. Well, it it it could be. It could be. Even where the windows are and and Yeah. Could totally be. Yeah. It's just we manifest it. Anyway, so she's reeling Maggie's reeling from this breakup. She is reeling from the sense of putting herself on the line with this book that she's written. She wants good feedback, as all writers do, and is not getting it for various reasons. And so she's really open to this opportunity that falls into her lap. Yeah. Not really taking into account what it means to prematurely age. How could anybody really understand that? And her parents, by the way, everybody in her life is kept in the dark, and it's only later when things get revealed. Put us in Maggie's headspace, and Yeah. Why would someone give away their life for $3,000,000,

[38:22]Kelly Yang: or why wouldn't they? Yeah. I mean, I remember being in my twenties and just being, like, so impatient, almost, like, violently impatient. I remember going to a book signing by this really famous author and waited in line, and I finally got to talk to her. And I was like, please, like, I I just really wanna know how to do it. I'm in my twenties. I've really I had the story of front desk. I mean, I've had Front Desk since I was literally eight years old. I had it in me. I just didn't know how to get it out. And I was telling her, like, I really have this great story. I really wanna be an author like you. Like, how do I do it? And she looked at me, and I was and she just said, how old are you? And I said, I'm 24. And she said, yeah. What do you have to write about at 24?

[39:04]Zibby Owens: Who is this author? We will never read her again.

[39:08]Kelly Yang: I mean, to be fair, I feel like maybe she wasn't necessarily being malicious, but it came through as that because it set me back by about a decade. I just couldn't I I I remember her voice in the back of my head because it's so hard just putting pen to paper and to have that voice telling you, you don't have it yet. It's not your time yet. How could it possibly be any good because of your age? And I just remember the fury of that, you know, the the confusion and the fury and the desperation. So, yeah, like, would I sign up at the time for $3,000,000 to age forward ten years? I mean, what is time anyway when you can't even afford it? You know? You can't afford your dreams at that age. Like, a lot people are like, well, I wouldn't do it, but then what what are you also doing that's that's also aging us? You know? Like, all these jobs I took that really aged me since I was little.

[39:59]Zibby Owens: So, yeah, that's kinda what what was in her mind. You know, I feel like you've taken the serum because you have not aged. You look like you're, like, 20 years old. So maybe Well, maybe I've been doing the blood test. I think you might be. I think you might. We just have to find Maggie now and find out who you traded with. Okay. And then Ingrid. Ingrid has her own issues. She's married to Kyle. I am also married to a Kyle anyway. He's not here. She's married to Kyle. As you said, her relevancy is is waning. And I have to say, I felt very complicated things about Ingrid. I I started on her side and then I'm not so sure. Yes. She does a lot of questionable things. She's a mover and operator. She uses people a lot to get ahead, even the media. Like, she's very skilled. Very skilled. And then I was wondering, oh gosh, what were Kelly's, like, Hollywood experiences like? Horrifying.

[40:49]Kelly Yang: Horrifying? They were horrifying. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of this stemmed from my very brief experience working for Hollywood. I was thrust into this again because of front desk, because they wanted to make it into a movie. I was really worried how they were gonna betray me since the book is so autobiographical almost. So I said, yeah. Can I please take a crack at writing it? And they kinda like sort of agreed, but were really annoyed. You know, Hollywood hates outsiders as a general rule. And, you know, me being the author, they just didn't know what to make of me. And I I remember just constantly having to deal with these horrible comments that people would make these snide little remarks, you know, and, yeah, Ingrid is really complicated because she wants all these great things. Wait.

[41:33]Zibby Owens: Go back. So they gave you bad comments. Did they what happened with the script and the whole project in Hollywood? Oh, well, thankfully

[41:39]Kelly Yang: I mean, thankfully, it didn't get made. And I say that as, like, one of the few authors you'll ever meet who's like, thankfully, I didn't get a movie made. No. Because, I mean, for me, like, the story is so so so special. And if you're not gonna do it right, it's probably best not to do it, you know? And But the turmoil of that, it it I, like, bled. It was horrible. You know, it was horrifying to have people that you really admired, that you've watched their movies growing up treat you like trash, basically, and say like, at one point, I think somebody made a remark saying, having the author be involved in the movie is like us being forced to hire a handicapped person that we can't fire. Yeah. And they even reference the scene from Curb Your Enthusiasm where Larry David is has a handicapped assistant, and he has to find a way to foist this assistant onto someone else. I mean, just like these remarks and remember, I was a baby writer, so this was my first book. And to have these comments hurled at me, how do you keep, like, a morsel of faith in your own writing abilities when that's happening? I mean, you're, like, really put through the ringer in this horrifying and unspeakable way. And the reason it's unspeakable is because for me to talk about it, I was always afraid. Well, what are you going to call me to the rest of the industry? Am I going to be labeled difficult to work with? You know? Which is like a deal breaker for someone who's hasn't paid her dues yet. Right? Am I gonna be labeled acting out? Right? These are all these words that they weaponize, especially against women. And I didn't even know how to move on. I mean, it was weird because at the same time, the books were doing so well. So I had thankfully, I had the readers. Thankfully I mean, you guys really saved my life because, the readers proved to me I can write. Right? Like, I can't just keep listening to these voices even though they're powerful and they're successful, yes, and they're experienced. But I have to also find a way to listen to my own voice. So what's gonna happen with will Front Desk ever be made into a movie is basically what I wanna know. I hope so. I hope so. I feel like next time I will not be involved in the writing because that was it was too hard to make art by committee. And that's what it feels like in Hollywood because there's so many different players. I mean, you'll read a lot of this in the take, just how hands on these people are. I have to find the right partners, I think.

[44:06]Zibby Owens: But now you're at a different life stage. Right? How long ago was all that happening? This was, like, eight years ago, right when the book was coming out. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I'm not that long.

[44:15]Kelly Yang: No. But, yeah, I live to tell the story. So here we are, and we got a great book out of it. Okay. So anyway, back to The Sorry.

[44:23]Zibby Owens: Back to The Take. So we have Ingrid, and she is exposing this dark side. Yes. And yet she's trying to escape a cancer diagnosis, a pre cancer diagnosis, by getting this blood transfusion,

[44:37]Kelly Yang: which is, to be honest, so detailed. Did you you must have had to talk to doctors. Yes. Well, my mom is a pancreatic cancer survivor, so we're always putting her through these I mean, she's a survivor, she's doing great but we're always putting her through these cutting edge, newest kind of blood tests. And there are tests now that can find the precancer cells before they become cancer. And they're always trying to get me to do it. I'm like, No. I don't want to know this. This is like, I have enough problems. I have all these books to write. But I'm always tempted, I'm always thinking, I took it? What if they found something? And it's not cancer yet, so you can't really treat it with chemo. What do you do? And a lot of cells are precancer cells because as we age, that's just what happens. There's mutations. So that's kind of where that idea came from. But, yeah, I mean, Ingrid's a complicated character. You're not supposed to love her, but you are supposed to sympathize with her at different points. And then ask yourself, why are you sympathizing? Why are you sympathizing with certain behaviors? Why is that behavior okay because of her age and certain behaviors that Maggie does, which are also unhinged? Why is that not okay? So why what drew you to this whole thing and why write for grown ups? I wanted to write a story about aging, and I couldn't do it when they were like eight. But I do I mean, I love like, you know what? I needed, like, a clean slate. I needed to just be fresh and completely un like, just not think about anything and totally write from scratch, and that's how I felt with this adult book. You have a scene in the book where

[46:18]Zibby Owens: Maggie has to go with Ingrid to New York, and it's like a whole big deal, and here we are in New York right now. Yes. Love that. She's like, I'm just gonna talk to all my friends from my writing program and be like, Here I am, and maybe I'm going to massage the truth a little bit about my own project. But this need for approval is just so raw throughout the book. Everyone's approval. Maggie with her friends, with the community, Ingrid and her industry. I feel like there is just such a raw

[46:44]Kelly Yang: longing that these women have in all different ways. -Yes. Yeah. And that's the one thing I'm really grateful with aging is I don't need anyone's approval anymore. You know? I'm just happy being me. And that's something I think you do get with age is not looking for permission anymore. You know? Like, we're when I was younger, I just wanted a sign. That's all I wanted, was just a sign from somebody who was a somebody to give me a little nod that I could become maybe a somebody too. When really, you don't you're not gonna get that permission necessarily, and you gotta stop chasing it. You have to give yourself permission.

[47:23]Zibby Owens: Can you just take us back? How did you go from being the 20 year old feeling like you would never write to then finally getting up the gumption to go back to writing, spilling your story, and then having it take off? Like, how did what happened in between? So I was writing a little newspaper column.

[47:43]Kelly Yang: I was living in Hong Kong, and I had a little newspaper column, and that was it. That was my identity, sole identity as a writer. I was really proud of it, but I got fired from the column. The newspaper changed ownership, and it was it went from being independently owned to being owned by Alibaba, which is like our Amazon in Asia. And as a part of that transition, I lost my column. And that, I actually tell people all the time, you know, that tragedy became such a great such a blessing. It really was the thing that changed my life. Like, I thank God I got fired, because it forced me to to face my fear. Like, what is stopping me from writing this book? Is it that just that one ridiculous author? Because that's that's dumb, you know, to let one person's thought on a in a signing line stop me. What is stopping me? Nothing, really. So that and the and the fact that my son wasn't reading, which was was really heartbreaking for me to see as someone who loves loved books, loves books, and loved books growing up. Books really saved my life. So I had to figure out a way to do it. What what books are you particularly grateful for? What were you reading? What were you reading when you were when you were young? Oh my gosh. Well, I was reading a lot of series. So I love The Babysitter's Club. I love Goosebumps. All of, like, you know, Louis Thatcher, Beverly Cleary, all of that stuff. And are you still you must be still a huge reader now? Yes. Yes. Yes. I am. I am now rereading Because of Winn Dixie by my good friend, Kate DiCamillo. I have a podcast with her, and I thought, you know what? I'm gonna go back and reread all of Kate's books, and it's just like it's

[49:30]Kelly Yang: So if you need, like, a pick me up, read read some middle grade.

[49:34]Zibby Owens: After the take, though. Read the take first.

[49:37]Kelly Yang: Tell us more about your podcast. Oh, I have a very short ten minute podcast every week on Mondays. We talk about writing, we answer questions from the kids. It's just a way to try to get kids dehooked from short form video and listen to a longer conversation, which we think is the gateway to reading. It's just like, yeah. Hopefully, hopefully, they'll want to hear something longer, and then they'll want to read something longer. Because we gotta do something about this, guys. Like, if there's one thing that's even more important than all these books is the fact that the kids aren't reading, and we gotta do something about that.

[50:16]Zibby Owens: What else can we do aside from write books and host podcasts?

[50:19]Kelly Yang: No. Seriously, though. I mean The most important thing that an adult can do is read themselves. Because if you read, your kids will see that, and they will model that behavior. And, you know, we talk a lot about the kids' epidemic of not reading. Well, what about the grown ups? You know, what are they doing? They're scrolling on their phones, you know, to be honest with you, and that is what the kids are seeing. So we can't just look at it as a kid's problem. We have to look at it as a everybody problem. We have to do this. Otherwise, if we lose this reading battle, I don't even know where we're gonna be in ten years.

[50:52]Zibby Owens: There was an ad. My husband was watching the March Madness whatever tournament, and there was an ad for Gemini. Does anyone have this app? And they showed how you can take your kid's schedule and which is actually awesome. Like, the academic calendar, you take a picture, you put it in, and it, like, syncs to your calendar, which I tried, which was really cool. But then I said, wow. What else can you do? And they're like, would you like me to write you a short story? And I was like I literally showed my husband. I was like, my job is done. Like, my industry is over. Yeah. It's bad. It's bad. People can't read emails anymore. They need the AI summary.

[51:30]Kelly Yang: You know, the kids don't wanna read anything that's longer than a couple sentences, really. It's a really big problem. I think we can do it, though, because I think ultimately, we are wired to want conversation and to want a longer story.

[51:46]Zibby Owens: Okay. I'm going to go with that.

[51:49]Kelly Yang: What are you working on now? So I just started well, we're sort of finishing up the last draft of this adult book that is separate from the take, so hopefully we'll get somewhere with that. Fingers crossed. Every book just feels like, oh, this is this is not gonna work. And then I am starting middle grade again. Yay. So, well, I'll have to, like, ping pong off the two between adult and middle grade. Where do you get all your energy? -I don't know. Well, you know what? I think I am honestly most calm when I'm working on something, when I'm working on a story. If I'm not working on a story, then I have way too much anxiety. So it is very therapeutic for me.

[52:32]Zibby Owens: You've shared really openly about your mom, pictures of you guys in the hospital, you've shared on social. How is everything going with her now? And how are how are you coping with that in addition of parenting and everything else you Oh, have going god. Well, you know, the sandwich generation is just the worst.

[52:48]Kelly Yang: My mom has been having a lot of health issues lately, but she seems to be stable right now. It's very hard when you have gone through the pancreatic cancer procedure, even if you survive it. There's like so many literally missing body parts. So it's hard for her, and she's just amazing. Like, I look at her, I'm like, wow. So I'm really glad she's around some more to tell me what to do and to tell me that I'm not doing it well enough. But, you know, it's just like every day, one day at a time, you know? You can't you're not you're not gonna do anything perfectly. You're gonna always feel like you're failing somewhere, and that's okay. So if a 23 year old comes up to you in your signing line, what do you say to them? Do it. Do it. Write the story. I don't care if you're eight. Write the story. Do it. You're never too old or too young to do what you wanna do.

[53:39]Zibby Owens: Love it. Kelly, thank you so much. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.