Laurie Frankel’s hilarious take on aging in Enormous Wings

[1:49]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. Laurie Frankel's book, Enormous Wings, is one of my favorites for this whole season. I loved it. You'll hear me gushing to Lori Frankel about it. Lori's previous book, Family Family, was one of my Zippy's book club picks. And I just love her as an author because she has the best quick wit, sense of humor, sense of story. Her observations about family and relationships are really second to none, and I thought that this book, I've talked about it to so many people since I've read it, is so original and so good. Anyway, listen to us talk about it. Laurie's already a New York Times bestselling and award winning author, not only of Family Family, but also of One Two Three, Goodbye For Now, The Atlas of Love, and the Reese's Book Club pick, This Is How It Always Is. Laurie lives in Seattle with her husband, daughter, and border collie, and I hope you love Enormous Wings as much as I did. Welcome, Laurie. Thank you so much for coming back on Totally Bucked to talk about Enormous Wings. Congratulations.

[3:32]Laurie Frankel: Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back. I love to do this podcast.

[3:36]Zibby Owens: Laurie, I loved this book so much. I loved it. I, like, lingered over every sentence. You're so funny. Everything I mean, the the wit, not to mention the plot and everything else and the story. But I loved it. I just loved it. I keep, like, holding it. And your publicist accidentally sent me two copies. And so I had one in my son's room where I always put him to bed and one in my room. And at night, he would go to bed hugging enormous wings. And now we have a whole thing, like enormous wings, and I give him the book. That is so amazing and so sweet and I love it and I'm thrilled. Thank you. Thank you. You. Thank you. Oh my gosh. So glad. It's just so good. And even the way you weave the title in all throughout the book and the way at the end oh my gosh. It's just anyway, the full circle of it all. It was okay. I'll

[4:29]Laurie Frankel: stop. I mean, listen, not on my account. Don't stop. But I I'm so thrilled. It's a weird book. And so as it's starting to make its way into the world, I'm definitely holding my breath to see how people respond to it. And I appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. It means the world to me. Oh my gosh. No. It's it's so good and creative and funny and just anyway, okay. Tell everybody what it is now. Tell everybody what it Okay. Okay. So the elevator pitches, it is about a it's about a 77 year old grandmother whose adult children move her into a retirement community against her will and better judgment where she is surprised and delighted to make friends and also fall in love.

[5:11]Zibby Owens: But then she gets sick. But when she goes to the doctor, she finds out she is not ill. She's pregnant. Unbelievable. By the way, when I Unbelievable. I started it, I don't like reading the back cover. Like, I know I I say yes and then, like, I forget. And then I'm like, I'm just gonna go in cold. So when she gets pregnant, I was like, wait, what? Even though it's fairly early on. I was like, I did not see that going.

[5:33]Laurie Frankel: Yes. Right. I mean, it's very it's a thing that me so first of all, me too, by the way, I never read the back of the book. I never read reviews because I don't want to know anything going in. And so it was really a debate about how much to share about this, but it's really not a spoiler because it happens very early. And mostly we thought, gosh, there's no way we'll be able to keep this secret. We might as well lean into it instead of away from it, basically. And I, you know, and I I think it's it really is the premise of the book. So Yeah. No. No. You have to you have to tell. I mean, was yes. You have to tell. But I'm with you. I read the same way and for the same reason. Where did this come from? Where did this did it just yeah. Tell me about where this came from. I mean, right. It's really I mean, it's one of those things where you're like, gosh, why did I think of that weird idea? There are, of course, any number of answers to that question. The simple one is that when my own grandmother got sick with what we eventually learned was cancer, and I was at the time in my mid twenties, and her symptoms were very she was nauseous and she just kind of felt off and weird and her brain was really fuzzy. And I had said to her, Gosh, maybe you're pregnant. And it was on my mind at the time because I was in my 20s and in graduate school. It was just a thing that was sort of the kind of canned joke response to anybody who said anything like, Oh, I have a headache. Oh, I'm really thirsty. Oh, I feel so hungry. They're like, Oh, maybe you're pregnant. And for me, if I had been pregnant in my twenties, that would have been a very hard, difficult, unfortunate thing. Whereas if my grandmother had been pregnant, It would definitely, definitely have been much, much better than cancer, which she came by honestly. She was 85 at the time and, you know, had been smoking a pack of cigarettes a day since she was in high school. So in fact, she did pretty well for herself as far as that was concerned. But that idea stuck with me. And, you know, and then twenty five more years passed and I turned 50. And one of the things that happened is that I don't know how I want to say this, but well, when I was in my twenties, if I had gotten pregnant and didn't want to be, I could have had an abortion. And twenty five years later, that's not true for many, many people in this country. That makes that complication even more complicated and difficult. And so it stuck with me and seems like a good way into talking about this. I mean, I think it's also true that abortion in particular is one of those very divisive issues about which no one ever changes their mind. And we hear the same arguments from all sides over and over and over again. And as a novelist, think that's those are the things that you that one is drawn to. Like, okay, what else if if instead of having to fit it into a social media post, I had a whole book to think about this and talk about this in, then then then what else could we add here? And and thinking about it from the point of view of a senior citizen makes it a very different conversation than, of course, we otherwise

[8:48]Zibby Owens: ever have. Well, the across state lines piece of it, that that is a rule, you know, a law in certain places, which, of course, you wanna raise awareness about. And what are the consequences of doing something like that? What are the risks? Who does it affect? What are the widespread you know, it's not just you. Is it if you break a law, what does it mean? I mean, it raises so many issues, highlights so many parts of the decision making process, how people feel about it, who is entitled to this, who I mean, there's so many issues. And you've picked, like, a very hot topic item, but you don't even realize that you're talking about it at first. Right? Like, it's it courses through very naturally because you're like, oh, well, what are the options when something like this happens? How do I go forward with it? And yet, I feel like you're engaging in a topic that I feel like people I mean, like, are you worry I mean, I know you said earlier you were a little bit worried, but it didn't occur it didn't occur to me almost till the end where I was like, I wonder if people are gonna object. What parts are they gonna object to? Are they are people gonna be able to read this as an exploration or a political statement?

[10:09]Laurie Frankel: Yes. Short answer, yes. I'm very worried. I mean, though, that really is my state of being. There's There's almost no point at which you could ask me, Are you worried? And I'd be like, Oh no, I'm not worried. I'm always worried. Me too though, it wasn't until pretty late in this process that I realized how much of this conversation I was going to get in and kind of muck around in. In fact, I wrote this book the first time in 2017. And wrote it, I mean, drafted, researched, revised, edited, polished the whole thing in 2017. And could not quite find an honest, persuasive way to convince you that this protagonist would do anything other than elect to have an abortion. And so I put it in a drawer and I took it out again in 2023 and moved it to Texas or any one of the other 13 states where abortion had in those intervening years become illegal. And that refocused in addition to it, bridged that plot hole, it also refocused the book where it was always meant to be on these issues of agency and bodily autonomy, which are very different for elders than non elders. Never mind pregnant people and non pregnant people. One of the things that I think is very interesting is that lots of people who identify as pro choice and are pro choice, nonetheless, are needing to make decisions on behalf of their parents' lives and autonomy and bodies over often their own desires because they don't for reasons that look an awful lot like like the choices that people make in pregnancy. And so that connection just seemed really, really interesting to me. That that one could be super pro choice and also say to their parents, I don't care what you want. You have to go live in this in this home. For reasons which everyone would understand and support. And and so that's what seemed interesting to to me is to be able to have these conversations from a different perspective, different point of view so that wherever you align politically, wherever your opinions are on on these issues, it's a spectrum of issues. It's not one thing or the other thing. There's all of this stuff in between, all of this space in between, and let's talk about it. It's complicated and difficult. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. And that's what I always want in what I read and what I write. And and frankly, it would be great if the discussion at large were more like that on more fronts, seems to me. Well, I don't wanna make it seem like this is an abortion book because it is absolutely not. This is a book about family. It is a book about

[13:08]Zibby Owens: love, survival, resilience, friendship, humor. I mean, starting over. Yes. It's all the things. Like, it has all the elements. Motherhood, like, basically down my checklist of things I look for. Do you know what mean? Like, these are all all the issues. I mean, the the the storyline also about Moth's wife I mean, it doesn't come that late, but Moth Yeah. Is a widower, and his wife has died of cancer. And and she is also what is her name? Oh my god. What is her name? Pepper Weasel. Of course. No. Pepper. Of course. Pepper Mills. Pepper Mills, you're so funny. Oh my god. No. I mean, every every other minute, I was like, she's so funny. Pepper has gotten over cancer. Love, by the way, that her ex husband is in the same nursing home. Oh my gosh. Like, that alone could have been enough for a novel. But how cancer affects a family also, an individual and a family, and the sense of her body, and how everybody responds. I mean, it's a really interesting granular interpretation of that particular experience, which I bet a lot of people will relate to. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and 365 returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[16:52]Laurie Frankel: I hope so. And thank you for saying that. Yeah. This is the other beauty of novels. Right? It's like they're long. This book is actually the shortest book I've ever written, but it's they're expansive. You get to get into characters and backstories and histories, and it doesn't have to focus on an issue. It's also about, it's more about really all of these other things. It's I mean, to my mind, this book is centrally a love story and kind of an unusual love story. I think not actually in the world, just on the page, because I think lots of elderly people are falling in love in retirement communities and lots of them are having sex. We just don't like to we don't like to talk about it. We don't read about it very often. We don't see it on screens very often. And that also I think is, think, great. Yeah. Super. Let's talk about that too.

[17:40]Zibby Owens: Yes. It's so funny. I just finished reading this article, Annabelle Gurwitch, whose book we just published just had this article come out and she has stage four cancer. And it's about how do you fall in love? Do you trust the process enough when you know your life is gonna end? And so she in the article, she talks about instead of in love, she said, I feel very fondly about you. Let's all just feel like we're in fondly lovers not in love, like, fun feel fondly about each other. And it Yeah. It tracks so closely to this because it's like they're in a place where they're there for the long term, right, and what do they do next? And yet there's so much potential. Like, life still gets to be lived, and every day is like a gift. And the love that they find and the knocking on the wall. I mean, it's just so precious and amazing and inspiring because it's like, we don't have to give up. You don't have to give up at a certain age just because maybe you don't drive as well. I mean, I don't drive well now.

[18:34]Laurie Frankel: You don't have to. But yeah, for sure. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for saying so. It turns out to be a really interesting setting to write about, retirement community. It does a lot of things that I think fiction thrives on, this like closed system of, you know, the kind of desert islandness of it all. Like, we're putting all of these people who don't necessarily have anything in common. And in some cases, I mean, Pepper and her ex husband have actively chosen not to live together anymore. And it's like, nope, too bad. This is we have decided this is what's best for you when it probably is, and this is where you're gonna live. You're all in this tiny, tiny community together. But But over a I mean, some of them are 55 and some of them are 105. And with all wide variety of life experiences and history and coming from all sorts of places, but put them all in a building together and see what happens. And I'm here for that. I wanna see what happens.

[19:34]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. So good. I can so see this being a movie, by the way. I hope so. It's such a I hope there's news on that soon.

[19:43]Laurie Frankel: Me too.

[19:45]Zibby Owens: Me too. I hope so. I also love that Pepper goes into this nursing home sort of as a new girl. Right? And we all have that new girl experience, and it doesn't ever go away. And she has to go make friends like so many people, whether you're a new mom or a new job or whatever it is. And there she is, and she looks around, and she's like, oh my gosh. I have to be friends with all these all these people. Like, what am I gonna do? And then you watch her make these fabulous friendships, heartbreaking, beautiful, funny, close friendships that also end up driving part of the story of the book. And that's another way to shed light on what comes later and what you can never what you never have to give up on is me making new fabulous friends.

[20:27]Laurie Frankel: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I think that one of the things that happens as some of the other responsibilities fall away, that is like, I don't necessarily want to get cheesy about like, oh, the elderly are so wise. It's more just like, Okay, if you don't have to go to work every day, if you don't have a career that you need to manage, if you don't have small children that you need to manage, then your life opens up in lots of ways. And I think that frequently the language surrounding that is one of closing down. And that's a way to look at it. But I think another way to look at it is, no, it opens up. So you you get all of that being the new kid, but without some of the pressures that went along with it. Like, you're starting college or high school, God help you, middle school, and you have to make friends with all these people and you're trying to manage all sorts of other things about your life and your appearance and the way you present to the world and, you know, never mind. Okay, when your own kid is going to middle school or preschool, and then you have all you want to make friends, but also you're scheduled within an inch of your life you know, or the workplace. You want to present well, you want to manage your career, you want to move up in the ranks, you want to eat. You have to keep this job because you need health insurance, you need a salary. If all of that goes away, then in a lot of ways, I think that's very freeing. And you just get to be who you are. And I do think that by that age, lots of people are done posturing. Posturing. One of the things that Pepper keeps observing is once upon a time, some people were closer to the beauty ideal than others and looked more like people on television than others. Like that was the whole thing. What? At 77, nobody looked anything like the beauty ideal. Nobody looks anything like the influencers or the people on TV. So great. You can get rid of that and instead just be who you are. And this enables her to make really, really good, interesting

[22:37]Zibby Owens: friends really quickly. My grandmother used to joke. She's like, Nobody ever said I looked great until I turned 90. Yes. Exactly. Yes. She's like, I know everywhere I go. You know? She like was very stylish, red lipstick, you know, big statement necklace, always put together with her, you know, salon gray hair, all star you know? And she's like, you know, literally never a compliment until now. So

[23:03]Laurie Frankel: I had that grandmother. I had exactly that grandmother.

[23:07]Zibby Owens: Maybe they are friends somewhere. Maybe they are I

[23:12]Laurie Frankel: hope so. I hope so.

[23:14]Zibby Owens: Tell me a little bit more about writing the book. You put it in a drawer. I find that so interesting. And then you took it out and you went back into it. Were there any characters who you totally changed when you went back in? Were did you keep all the characters as is? And and were there scenes where you're writing and you were like, this is just the best writing day, and it was because such and such a scene was was written.

[23:35]Laurie Frankel: Yeah. It's a really interesting question. And this isn't something that I would recommend because because I really had this entire book written and then and then put it away. And what it's meant among other things is it'll be almost ten years from from like my start from word one to publication. Never mind the fact that I had this idea, though not in novel form, two and a half decades ago. And so it's definitely been a long haul. It's very interesting. I do not believe a single sentence remains. I I I do not think I I left a single sentence intact from the 2017 version to this version. I it's not I didn't edit it. I opened a new document. I wrote it completely from scratch. I didn't even really look very hard again at that twenty seventeen one. In fact, I started to, and I was marking all sorts of things like, oh, this scene is really good, and this paragraph is so beautiful, and, oh, this simile is amazing. I have to keep it. And I realized it was gonna be it was too hard. I Mhmm. Couldn't keep it all in my head at the same time. Mhmm. The only thing to do is to start from scratch. Most of the characters, though, that are in this version are in that version. A number of the characters from that version didn't make this version, but almost no one who's in this version except for, like, really, really the minorest of characters wasn't wasn't in that version in 2017, which is interesting. And then I reread it from scratch, and I reread it from scratch several times. For a while, I was having it narrated in turns by a variety of characters. Like sometimes it was Pepper, but sometimes it was her children. And sometimes it was their children or various and sundry other minor characters, and I was kind of flitting among them. And that wasn't working. So then I I stuck to Pepper, but I kept it in the third person, and that wasn't working. And so eventually, I went back and put it in in first person, which you sort of have this fantasy of like, oh, I'll just search for all the she's and replace with i's and, yeah, be done with it. But no. No. No. It involved rewriting the entire thing, which, of course, is why it wasn't working. You know, if it were if it had been working, it would have worked anyway, regardless of the point of view. Changing it to the first person meant changing all sorts of things, but then that's what finally made this book work. Yeah. And in the beginning of this round of the 2023, I wanted it to be really short. I don't know why. I had it in my head that it would be a really interesting, like 200 page novel and I just couldn't get it done. The more I wrote it, the more interesting it got. And the more I wanted to hear about these characters and the reasons why and the explanations and all the people they met and their backstories and explore their relationships among one another a little bit more. And it's still, as I say, it's still the shortest book I've ever written, but it wasn't 200 pages anymore. I

[26:30]Zibby Owens: loved also all the Jewish references in the book, the occasional Yiddish word or Hebrew word thrown in. I loved the holidays, Hanukkah coming early, like all the things. Tell me a little bit about that. And do you have any reservations? You know, I know we're all aware of the the climate and how, you know, Jewish authors have had a lot of pushback since October 7 and all of that. Do you have any reservations about putting a Jewish character out into the world or anything? So the second part of that question is is back to, yes, I'm worried about everything.

[27:07]Laurie Frankel: Of the things that I think are gonna piss people off about this book, that's probably on the list, but it's, I would imagine, fairly low down. So I've sort of ranked my worries, I guess, in that way. The first question, like, why she was Jewish? You know, there's that that kind of I think it's a very common saying. In fact, I think it's it's meant to be a little bit pejorative almost about you have two Jews in a Roman. Have three opinions. Yeah. And I think that that's meant to suggest that, I don't know, the Jews are really opinionated, I guess. And to me, I think that's just the greatest compliment because it means at least one of those Jews is able to hold diverging opinions Mhmm. In their head at the same time. And indeed, I think Jewish people like, the Jewish culture, I guess, I'm gonna say, does that really well to think critically about ideas that don't necessarily go together. And as I say, that that is what where I came into this book, but it's also where I come into all books. Like, I just think this is what fiction is for, is to take issues that are so often presented to us as black and white or cut and dry or, you know, you are this side or this side. There's no middle ground. There's no gray. You don't get to change your mind. Sign up for one or the other. And I think that polarization is serving no one. And so to put it instead, round it within a cultural tradition of, great. Let's talk about it. Let's run our mouths about that for 300 pages and see where it gets us. Let's have a conversation. I think it's a really, really good thing.

[28:49]Zibby Owens: Yeah. I agree. And by the way, a book like this with so many things to talk about and debate and whatever is like perfect book club fodder. Right? This is like it opens questions instead of shutting it down. There's no one interpretation. So that's also really fun in a book is what do you think? And I think it'll inspire other people to have great conversations.

[29:11]Laurie Frankel: I hope so. Thank you. I hope so. Yeah. And that's always what I want. That's what I want in a book. I get bored if there are good guys and bad guys and and it's and I just know from the beginning who is who. I get bored if there aren't interesting questions. I wanna talk about this stuff. This one I will suit up for. Yeah. What novels are good at. That's that's always what I want. And, you know, I think I mean, I hope people will love this book. I I hope that it is I mean, I think it's very entertaining and, you know, compelling page turning, all of those things. But I do think that book club books where everyone just shows up and is like, oh, that was really awesome, then there's nothing to talk about. I also want to give you something to talk about. Yeah. Well, Laurie, I'm obsessed. It's so good.

[29:53]Zibby Owens: And I I just can't wait for it to come out and for everybody to discover it and discuss it and laugh and cry and all the things. Really, I just loved it. Anyway, sorry to come on a little strong here, but I just happen to love this book so much, So

[30:09]Laurie Frankel: Yes. I mean, first of all, don't apologize. And second of all, obsessed. Obsessed is what we're going for. I I love it. I feel like those are the best reading experiences where where you're like, I have to bring this book with me to the grocery store because Exactly. Because I love it. Yes. I love I love I'm thrilled. Thrilled. It's exciting to hear you telling me this. This is really great news. Well, I'm gonna follow-up after because maybe there's a way you can come to one of our live events somewhere and at the store or New York or whatever because I would love for everybody to to read it. I would love that. I would love it so much. That'd be really great. Thank you. Okay.

[30:41]Zibby Owens: Alright. Thank you, Laurie. You're amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.