Celebrity Spotlight: Gina Gershon

[1:17]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. Gina Gershon is the author of Alpha Pussy, How I Survived the Valley and Learned to Love My Boobs. Okay. I get uncomfortable saying cursors of any kind, but I'm making an exception for this title because I've been following Gina Gershon's career for many, many years. She actually, at one point, went to a spa when a girlfriend of mine was there years ago, and she couldn't stop talking about Gina. This was oh my gosh, maybe when I was in high school or something. Well, it couldn't have been that long ago. Anyway, I've been following Gina's career and was so excited to see the launch of this book. She posted about signing books at Zibby's Bookshop, which was amazing and so nice. And I had to have her on. If you don't know her, she has been starring on stage, screen, and television for over forty years. She has recorded albums and toured across America, performed at Carnegie Hall three times, playing her Jews harp with Sting, Laurie Anderson, Joan Baez, and Gogol Bordello. She's the author of In Search of Cleo, and she performed that as a one woman show with an accompanying album. She's just basically pretty awesome. Her film credits include Bound, Showgirls, The Insider, FaceOff, and The Player, among others. And on TV, they include The Assassin, Ellsbeth, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Riverdale, and Brooklyn Nine Nine, just to name a few. On Broadway, she was in Sam Mendes' Cabaret, the Tony award winning Boeing Boeing, and more. Enjoy. Welcome, Gina. Thanks so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about your I'm, like, embarrassed you would say the name of your book. But anyway, how I survived the valley at there you go. And learned to to love my boobs. Anyway, amazing. Congratulations. Wow. Like, amount of times you escaped, like, a near miss in this book of, like, having something happen to you or getting abducted or, like, creepy men or creepy producers or lecherous Hugh Hefner people. I mean, it's really amazing. Every chapter I feel like I was like, Oh, she dodged a bullet there. Right? I know. I kind of forgot about all these things. And as like stories started percolating

[4:13]Gina Gershon: in my head, specifically about the valley, I was just like, wow, that was kind of a close call. I think when I got out of it then, it was just pure survival and pure instincts, you know, just kind of like, and then reflecting back on everything and working on it. It was like, wow, I still had so much tension left in my body. I realized I was really scared and kind of freaked out. But you know, I think when you're in those situations, you're just like, okay, get to point A to point B to point C, you know, as we do so many times. Yeah, and you just get on your skateboard and you're like, okay, onto the next. I'm on a skateboard and skate

[4:51]Zibby Owens: away. Unbelievable, unbelievable. Amazing.

[4:55]Gina Gershon: Listen, I was really lucky that not you know, like really bad things happened to me.

[5:01]Zibby Owens: The house with all those random guys in the neighborhood that you and your friend were like drugged. I mean, it's like, how does she get out of these things?

[5:09]Gina Gershon: I know. I just had a very strong sense of instinct and survival and will. And I think, you know, it's also, you know, I think at that point when you grow up, it's like my brother and sister who were older, you know, there was like, they would terrorize me at times, know, like just not in the crazy, like taking my blanket and hiding things. You know, when you're little, that stuff is really affects you. But I think, you know, it gives you a certain spidey sense of like, uh-oh, over there, something is brewing over there. Like, you know, check that out. And you know, on the streets of New York later on, like all those times walking home and being like, wait, like horrible person, 02:00. Allowed me, I think, navigate through a lot of things, you know. I mean, sister, talk a lot about your family and your sister like drawing the line in your bedroom and being like, you will not cross that. This is my space. Like, I felt a little bad for you, have to say. I know. I mean, my sister now, she's like, yeah, you made me sound I mean, I'm really close with my sister now. She's you know, we talk literally all the time. I think she wanted more. I said, but, Tracy, that's how you were to me when I was younger. So, you know but at the same time, she really instilled a lot of values in me of like, don't lie to dad and you have to tell the truth and, you know, stuff like that. Now the scene in the car with your dad was really powerful when you're just like, yeah, I'm going to do drugs again, FYI.

[6:41]Zibby Owens: And he just like takes a minute and is like, okay, smoke

[6:45]Gina Gershon: pot at home, like all that. Like, I was like, look at that parenting moment. Is that I'm supposed to respond as a parent? I don't know. That was really good parent. Well, because the takeaway from that, he taught me about unconditional trust. Because the key line in that whole thing is like, there's nothing you could ever do that you'd ever have to lie to me about. So I appreciate you telling me that. That was the lesson in it. So he's like, and you know what, after that, we just had a certain sense of trust. Like I didn't want to lie to him. I'm like, you know what, I'll tell him things. And I think because of that, then he respected me and treated me, you know, with that same sort of respect, you know?

[7:23]Zibby Owens: So it was an earned Who knew you actually wrote a parenting book?

[7:27]Gina Gershon: There's one chapter. There's one chapter there. Parenting

[7:31]Zibby Owens: pamphlet or something. Oh my gosh. You wrote towards the end too about when you were being cast in different roles and how you looked and all that. Can I just read this little section? Is that okay? Yeah. I haven't heard someone else read it either. Really? Oh, okay. You said, As soon as I graduated from NYU, I moved back to Los Angeles to start my career. This was the mid eighties. And as I began auditioning for film and TV roles, I was considered, quote, too ethnic for most parts. The lead roles were usually meant for blonde haired, blue eyed, American looking gals. I definitely didn't fit that bill. I would be cast as a Middle Eastern lady, a Colombian, an Italian, the devil, a dangerous bad mean girl. You know, anyone who had dark features. A girl once said to me that when I walk into a room, people assume I'm a bitch due to my arched eyebrows. I still don't totally understand that mode of thinking, but maybe it's written in some casting manual. When asked about my ethnicity by a casting director, I would proudly tell the truth. I'm a Jew from the valley. That always got a laugh followed by, no. Really? What are you? When I would reply, no. Really? I'm Jewish on both sides. I'd hear back, you don't look Jewish. You're too pretty to be Jewish. It was mildly insulting and definitely antisemitic. Disgusts? That's

[8:42]Gina Gershon: absolutely true. That happened to me. And I think later on I talk about also, I was talking about a script and the writing. And the producer with no irony and all, he's like, Oh, you're very smart. And I thought, Well, I just like lost this job, which wasn't good. Like, Oh, you're an actress. Like, stay in your lane. You're not supposed to be analytical about the whole thing. And it was like, oh, you're too yeah, someone literally said you're too pretty to be Jewish. And I was just like, I didn't quite know how to respond because you know, you don't want to lose the job. But at the same time, I'm like, you know, my mom's really pretty. My aunt's really pretty. You know, I didn't quite understand how antisemitic

[9:28]Zibby Owens: it was at the time, but I knew it was weird, you know? Yeah. That's one of those times my husband would be like, thank you. Right? Because how do you respond? And that's what I said. It was like, oh, But thank

[9:40]Gina Gershon: I felt a little funny saying thank you, think. It was insulting my people, you know? Yeah.

[9:47]Zibby Owens: Well, I loved hearing about, Well, I mostly loved hearing about how you got through your childhood because that was like quite a ride. But then when we moved into your whole career and how you got in and out of different parts and plays. And I really liked your scene with Robert Altman where you were just like, yeah, I'm here because I think you're awesome. And I want be in your movie. He's like, okay, show up. And you had to miss one of your friend's weddings that you went for the party. Talk a little bit about that. Yeah.

[10:16]Gina Gershon: Well, I was new, you know, I just had gotten out of college and I had an agent and I hear they were casting for you know, an Altman movie and I loved Robert Altman films. I'm like, wait a second, The Player, like it's about studio executives. And I'm like, I'm perfect for that. Like I, you know, I see those little D girls running around and but they said the part was cast and I just kept, you know, going, how am I not in this movie? Like it just feels like the right fit. And so I just kinda kept badging her and she said, listen, it's cast. It's like done. They're gonna be starting, you know, in a month or something. And she said, why don't you just go meet Scottie Bushnell who was his then producer and casting person? And it's like for the next one. So then at least, you know, they're a very close knit thing and blah blah blah. I was like, sure. You know, I'll meet anyone. And so as as I was waiting in the office,

[11:12]Zibby Owens: for some reason, that's remember when Joffers were in, they were like a fashion look? Yes. I could never pull those off, but yes, I remember them well.

[11:20]Gina Gershon: I don't think I pulled them up, but they look cute. Like, they were good with a pair of boots and a white t shirt. I'm like, this is this is respectful and kind of good. Like, I don't know. Maybe it was the only thing I had cleaned, but for some reason I decided, this is what I'm wearing. It felt very American or something. And then I'm sitting there and then next thing I know, the door is open and I'm waiting for the meeting. And then Altman just kind of walked by and I was like, oh, that's him. And then he kind of walked back and he noticed my joffers. And he's like, what are you? You ride? You ride the horses? And I said, no, not really. But I play him, not realizing he was a gambler. Know, he went to the racetrack. And then we just got in a huge conversation about, you know, Pinkai, like all these different jockeys and Santa Anita versus Hollywood Park and blah blah blah. And after a while he's like, what are you doing here? Like, literally, why are you here? Because he's like, what is this weird horseback, you know, pony gambler? And I said, well, actually I'm an actress. And that's when I came. I said, I really wanna do one of your movies. And so I'm here to meet Scottie. And I guess he decided I was okay because I knew how to bet on horses. And he just said, have you ever done anything? And I'd just done a John Sailes film. I said, well, I've only really done this, you know, that something he might know. And he liked him and next thing he's like, you're not improv? And I'm like, yeah. He's like, great. Why don't we just do this? And can you for two weeks and we'll make it up. I said, well, but my part's already cast. He's like, yeah. But we'll just make it up. So you want her part. You're like the d girl who wants to be the executive. I was like, that's pretty cool. That's how that happened. It's amazing. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[15:47]Zibby Owens: Yeah. It's like a the whole book, it could be called, like, chutzpah. Like, the whole thing is, like, you just, like, getting what you want. You like manifest and you show up and somehow it, like, works out most of the time.

[15:59]Gina Gershon: Do you feel like that? Most of the time. I clearly didn't tell the stories that things didn't work. If they didn't fall under the category of maneuvering or thinking faster, being in the flow, you know, if it didn't, like the alpha pussy is really more of a, you know, know who you are, stay on your feet, don't let someone push you off or tell you what to do, what you don't want to do. And it's listening to your instincts a lot. So if it didn't fall under that category, I just I don't know. I didn't write about it. Although I keep I'm sure I keep thinking about like, oh, yeah, I should have put that story in there. I mean Good a good book is never done. I guess it's never done. I know. Like, oh, why didn't I talk about that? I think at some point I'm just like, oh my God, you're just like Yeah. This guy and my publisher is like, you have to stop writing. I said, but let me just fix this one little bit. And what made you write the book to begin with? You know, I didn't I never really mean to write a book. It's I don't I still don't consider myself a book writer. Although when I wrote Camp Creepy Time, that was my brother's idea and he just wouldn't write it. I kept saying, you should write this book. It's a really good book and I can make it into a movie. Then it was one of those passing it back and forth, back and forth until finally we both wrote it together. And the last book In Search of How I Fell My Pussy and Lost My Mind was literally the story about my last cat. I was doing a one woman show showing my music, but using that as a kind of a clothing line to like hang the songs on because it all made sense. Then And I got a book deal out of it. I'm like, so this came about, I was with my friend who happens to be my book agent as well, David Kuhn. And, you know, we were a little tipsy one night and I did what I don't usually do. I I started telling like these showgirl stories just because I think we were in a long line and we had to kill time and I just I don't know. I was a little tipsy. And the next day he's like, you know, those stories you told me because you're literally sitting on a whole book. He's like, you know, you want I kept saying, I want to live upstate. He's like, you could get a place upstate, you know. He said, write this book and I could really sell it for a lot of money and all that. And I just thought, I don't know. It's not really my thing. I'm not like a tell out sort of girl. And then COVID happened and everyone was in lockdown. He said, just start writing stories and just send them to me. I thought, I'll just write little essays. It'll be something fun to do and it was making him laugh. And next thing I knew, he's like, great. I'm I'm taking this out. I said, no, no, you're not. I said, I actually don't want to write this book. Because at the time there was a lot of stories in there. I thought, I don't know, the world is so crazy. And I just thought, do I want to add? I don't want to add anything icky to the world. I don't want to throw anyone under the bus. It's not really my style. I'm fairly discreet. But then one thing led to the other and my mom wasn't well and so I was spending a lot of time with her and I was doing a lot of therapy and so much stuff was coming out and I was discovering so much with her. Then somehow the showgirls sing that alpha pussy story comes up because it really was that story, the forward really did happen, you know, when people kept checking out my chest and saying, oh, you're doing showgirls. And I was so uncomfortable going, you know, why am I backing away and mumbling and saying stupid things? And then I thought about, you know, my cat training. I go into that and how, you know, with my little male cats, this little, you know, game we made up. And so I I stare, stare, stare, they stare, stare, stare. And finally when I won that game, I became the alpha pussy. So my cat didn't wreak havoc and didn't turn me into his little victim that he could scratch and beat up and do anything he wants. So when I tried that on a human being, I found that that worked. And I thought, God, you just got to kind of look someone in the eye and say, Hey, you know, I'm doing this, this, this, you got to back off, you know, and they do usually. I'm certainly not talking about like killers or you know total sociopaths, in that case just run, don't be in that at all. And I noticed that there was I tell stories to certain friends of mine like younger actresses or this girl who went to spiritual retreat. And they were younger, they were in their 30s and they would tell me things and I'd be like, well you got to look at the person in the eye and say, hey man, you're making me uncomfortable. And they're like, no, no, no, I can't. You know, we we'll tell the producer or we'll tell this person or I told all the friends. And it's like, yeah. But until you could look someone in the eye and speak your truth very nicely, you're always gonna be having this tension that you have in your body right now. And I remember this one girl, she said, well, you know, you know how to do that because you're just so tough. And that I think is the line that turned into the Alpha Pussy book. Because I thought I'm like, but I'm not. I was not I had to become that way in order to navigate, you know, toxic situations or bullies or icky people. So I think that was maybe the seed of, oh, I could write a whole bunch of these stories because I realized I had a lot of them And people seem to like to you know, tell stories, you know, I was thinking I'm not writing this. I'm more like a storyteller and hopefully this is really fun. And if something slips in that's slightly meaningful to you, fantastic.

[21:10]Zibby Owens: I feel like you could continue this one on as a as a one woman show. Right? You could just like tell all these. I'm sure it would be even funnier. Well, you probably did the audiobook, which I haven't listened to. Right? I did the audiobook. It's hard because

[21:21]Gina Gershon: I wanna, of course, make it funny. And the audiobook, started listening to and I thought, oh my God, I can't, I can never listen to myself anyway. But like the valley stuff, I found myself like kind of like going in that sort of voice. I'm like, why wasn't there anyone saying don't know, you don't have to like Act Valley anymore, but that's just me. I hope it's funny. A lot of people, I like it that it's meant to make people laugh. No, no, it still is. I'm just saying you could, could,

[21:46]Zibby Owens: there could be even more life to it. Not that it's not, anyway, whatever. Also

[21:51]Gina Gershon: We'll see. We'll see. You never

[21:53]Zibby Owens: know. And I'm so sorry, by the way, at the end of your book to hear about your loss and that was just so sad and, oh my gosh, how are you doing with that and has writing about it helped? You know, it's now

[22:07]Gina Gershon: three and a half years ago, really. You know what? Never gets easier when you lose your mom. It's like a thing. It's a real thing. My sister just called me yesterday. She's like, I'm really missing mom today. I said, I know. Like, every now and then you're like, are you here? Or, you know, it's the one part of the book that wasn't meant to be in there because I thought, oh, funny stories, funny stories, little essays, little anecdotes, you know? And it was the only thing that was kind of happening real time in my life. And that whole, you know, president of the girls league, you know, that whole story that I found out during that time. Then when and it just it really moved me. And I realized at some point I started the whole thing off, you know, being in the womb as a setup to like how I'm kind of used to being on my own and it's good study for being in showbiz. And then all of a sudden I realized, oh my God, I start with that. I could tell this story because the more I thought about it, I was like, wow, she really was an alpha pussy. And the only reason I'm happy she's not alive now is because she would just be so stressed out and so horrified of everything going on in the world right now, you know? And when you're older, you just watch the news all day. I just I am glad she's not seeing it because she was already freaking out, you know? But she's like, I remember when I had a fight to get my name on the credit card and she was making money. She had her own company. So it was kind of a beautiful like side tribute, but I almost took that out. I'm like, oh, it's so

[23:37]Zibby Owens: emotional. No, I'm so glad you left it in. It was really, you know, because after going through your whole life with you to see that happen, like we're all just so rooting for you and then it, we feel that so deeply. I'm so happy you put it in. I'm sad it happened, but. I mean, and I have, the only thing I have to say, you know, and I

[23:55]Gina Gershon: really stress to people, they're like, oh, it's a how to book. I'm like, it is definitely not a how to book. And it's not, you know, this is the guide to whatever. It's not an advice book. It's just my particular stories, how I got from point A to point B to point C and how I navigated through it. But the only advice I ever have for anyone really is to get to know your parents. And I think it's really important no matter what you are, you know, because I think it'll ultimately, it'll eventually add to your being free as a human being and as an adult. And even better yet, if you know what their relationship was to their mom and dad, because that will explain a lot. And you go from anger to kind of compassion to then all a sudden, it's an interesting thing at the end of a parent's life, or the mother's anyway in mind, you know, you almost switch roles. You do become the parent a little bit, but I think our job, you know, I really feel like there's a need to like release ourselves from our DNA of the layers of trauma of our family, whatever it is. And in this case, I felt very lucky because then I felt like I got to release her of her own shadows that she wasn't even aware of, that I'm acting out. But once she was like, wow, I haven't thought about this and had a big release, it was like a double whammy and was so beautiful. And I really felt happy about that. So, you know, I always stress to people even especially if they don't have a good relationship. It's like, it's important because there's a healing,

[25:30]Zibby Owens: even if it's not for them, for you, you know, I think I stand behind that. Well, that's really, really valuable advice and something that so many people need to hear because life can get so busy and you're just like, I'm doing this and doing that. And you have to stop, like, what's really important? What's going be important later? Right? Or

[25:48]Gina Gershon: if, you know, something, you know, as adults, you know, I think it's such a cop out. Well, that's just the way I am, you know, like, you know, my family's like that. And as I'm like that, it's like, it's such a cop out, you know, I don't want to be a prisoner to anything, like especially invisible ties that have nothing to do with me yet they are dictating my life on some level. So I just always want to figure out what it is so I could be free of that. I mean, I don't know if that comes across in the book or not, but that's always my impetus, I think. No, I love that. I really love it. Gina, thank you so much. I've loved talking. Obviously,

[26:26]Zibby Owens: could keep talking all day. It's so much boring here,

[26:29]Gina Gershon: thank I love your store so much. When I lived in LA, I lived in Santa Monica. I lived on Montana, no, just off of Montana. And then I lived in Rusty Canyon. So that whole section. So I've always your books are so great. Aw. Thank you. Well, you're always welcome and come on Okay.

[26:48]Zibby Owens: Alright. Thanks so much. See you later. Okay. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.