Bookstore Owner + NYT Bestselling Author Jenny Lawson on How to Be Okay When Nothing is Okay

[0:02]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram zibbyowens. Jenny Lawson is the author of How to Be Okay When Nothing is Okay, Tips and Tricks That Kept Me Alive, Happy, and Creative in Spite of Myself. Jenny, who goes by The Bloggess, is the number one New York Times bestselling author known for her humor in writing about hard subjects, including mental illness, chronic pain, and more. Her books include Let's Pretend This Never Happened, Furiously Happy, Broken, You Are Here, and How to Be Okay When Nothing is Okay. This is Jenny's, I don't know, second, third, fourth, multiple times on the podcast. She also owns Nowhere Bookshop in Texas, which we talk about, and it was fun to talk shop with another bookstore owner. Jenny, welcome back on Totally Booked to talk about how to be okay when nothing is okay. Congratulations.

[1:31]Jenny Lawson: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be back. Oh my gosh.

[1:35]Zibby Owens: Have to say, am I allowed to say this is definitely my favorite book of yours. They're all so good, but this one has something for everybody. There are things that I've taken away in all different parts of the book because you have so many great helpful sections, which will help me, which will help people I love, which, I mean, it's just awesome. And it's so funny and so you and so perfect. I loved it. It was really good.

[1:57]Jenny Lawson: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I this was a scary book to write because I've never done, like, self help y kind of stuff, and I'm not good at reading self help myself because I get so easily overwhelmed. And so I thought, well, maybe I'll I'll write a book for people who are not good at self help, but who maybe need a little bit of, you know, encouragement and inspiration even though I don't technically have any real answers. It's it's really more just I always like to tell people, it's really just more little tips and tricks and things that, you know, can help you through some of the worst parts of the world and your own brain. And,

[2:45]Zibby Owens: yeah, all of that stuff because there's a lot going on right now. There is a lot going on. And by the way, I have left my clothes in the washer too many times to count. I know. I don't know that they've actually started to smell mildewy, but that's because I just quickly toss them in the dryer without inhaling, so perhaps. But it was nice to know that even that we're all just so distracted and obviously having an ADHD brain is one thing and you clearly differentiate that. Maybe start there and talk a little bit about that and the way you write about it. And you said at one point when the lights were getting louder or something, and you're like, that will make sense to people with ADHD? I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So,

[3:29]Jenny Lawson: you know, different things show up in different ways for different people. So this is gonna be this is really sort of my experience, but I have seen it sort of across the board for a lot of other people who struggle with ADHD, and that is it's not just a, like, oh, I'm kinda forgetful. Oh, I'm kinda lazy. Oh, I because it's very easy to have it look at it in sort of a whimsical sort of way. But truly, when you're struggling with it, it is absolutely exhausting and incredibly frustrating. And even things as simple as the noises that come from fluorescent lights can be enough to make me feel like I'm losing my mind. Any sort of a little distraction can be something that I'm actively having to focus on in my head instead of the thing that I really want to be focusing on, which can be so incredibly frustrating. I and and for me and I, you know, I I talk about all of these little tips and tricks and tools, but that one in particular is well, first of all, I turn off any of the fluorescent lights if I have access to them. And then the other thing is that I listen to color noise. So, like, pink noise is the one that works best for me, or, you know, I talk about all the different types in my book. And in particular, pink noise is really helpful for me because I will put on there's just, a YouTube thing that's a thirty minute pink noise that I'll put on, and I'll notice as I'm working, all of a sudden, I'll start to get really distracted again, and then I will look up and I'll be like, oh, the pink noise is over. And first of all, it just reminds me that, like, this is a legitimate thing. But secondly, it's really kind of wonderful because every time I get to the point where I'm like, oh, oh, okay. I gotta start it again. I'm like, oh, I actually did work for thirty minutes. Because it's so easy to get to the end of the day and think, I did nothing. I didn't accomplish anything. But if you're really in the moment going, oh, wait. Okay. That thirty minutes that I spent writing or answering emails or that actually was legitimate work that got done. Yeah. It counts. It all counts. Exactly.

[5:45]Zibby Owens: And I love how you talk about even getting into your creativity and impostor syndrome and not, like, judging yourself too much and just letting the stuff come out. A lot of people need to hear that. Talk about that.

[5:57]Jenny Lawson: Yeah. So I struggle with impostor syndrome, and I thought that I thought that, well, you know, if I can prove to myself that I'm not an impostor, that because for me, it comes out as I constantly doubt myself. I feel like at any moment, somebody's gonna say, oh, this is this is the book where where we realize, you know, she's not that funny or she's not that interesting. We actually don't like her. What's going on? And so when my first book, it was a number one New York Times bestseller. And, you know, people were like, look, overnight success. And I absolutely was an overnight success if you didn't count the twelve years it took me to write that book. But what I found is that when I did succeed and and do the things that I thought would prove, oh, okay. Well, this is how you get out of impostor syndrome and self doubt. What happened was the cognitive dissonance was even stronger. Because, first of all, it felt like, oh, okay. Well, there's no no place to go but down now. And secondly, it just felt like the the stakes were even higher, and I didn't feel any relief from the self doubt and the impostor syndrome, which was so disappointing. But it was really helpful in the end because it gave me an idea to look again at, well, what does success really look like? What what is that if if this is not it? If it's not, you know, that I have to be on the New York Times bestseller list, or I have to sell a certain number of this, or I have to this or that? I could go through and really decide, but what does success really look like for me? And everybody's different. Right? Like, for me, success it turns out success means that I'm secure enough that I know that my family's happy.

[7:50]Zibby Owens: And and that's that's the thing that I strive for. And because I can look at it and go, okay, this is the actual thing instead of what the world is telling me, what I should want, it gives me such a better idea of how to prioritize. And when I can prioritize those things, that's good for for me, for my family, for everybody. And then it makes you kind of lean into the strengths that you have and that make you you, which is what I also think people need to take away from this. Because you have a moment in here where you're like, Can I even write this way? I'm cursing all the time. Some of this is train of thought. Can I do these snippets? Can I write like this? And you took inspiration from other authors and you're like, Well, I'm just going to do it. And then when someone gave you a one star rating for it, you were like, Thank you. Go away. And, like, all these people rallied around you, so you actually twisted what could have been, you know, not in your head what you feared would be a liability into, like, a major, major strength.

[8:52]Jenny Lawson: Yeah. So that story actually is one of my very favorites. So that came from when so I own a bookshop, and we got a one star review. And I was really I was like, oh my god. One star. How what what did what did we do? And I looked at it, and it was basically just somebody saying, like, how dare you be progressive? You know? How dare you care about people? And so we ended up, like, leaning into it and selling sweatshirts with the one star review across the top. And it sold it out, and we were able to, you know, do employee bonuses with it. And, yeah, it's just sometimes sometimes, you know, you get those nasty reviews and you have to just lean into them. I also the one of the things that I write about, because I I talk a lot about because I deal with and I think everybody deals with it to a certain degree is rejection sensitivity of just you know, some people are really, really it's hard to deal with. And for me, in particular, it's hard to deal with because everything if somebody says something negative about me, I've already said it to myself a 100 times, and so it's easier to believe that. So a lot of the a lot of the tricks that I have in here are the tools that I use for reframing, and they are stories that I've been through that have really helped me. So for example, when my first book came out so when when a book comes out, you want these certain reviews, and they're called trade reviews, and there's I I don't know how many there are. You probably know five or six, you know, different places that you wanna get a review from. And one of those came out on my first book, and it was not only was it negative, but, like, they used a couple of words that I had to look up. I was like, oh, so not only am a bad writer, I'm also stupid. And it really crushed me, and for several weeks, I could not write. I was just just destroyed. I was like, I have let down everybody. This is the worst thing ever. And then then the book came out, and this the exact same place wrote another review, and they were like, a tour de force. And it was for the exact same book, but the only difference was it was the audiobook, which I was reading out loud, I was like, well, this doesn't make any sense. And I I talked to my agent, and she she was like, you know, each one of those reviews, it's just one person, and maybe they're on the worst day ever. And you can't let it you can't let it get to you. Especially because your your reviews technically are not any of your business, and what what I have taken from that, quite a few different things, but one of the things is I have learned to not look at my reviews. I just avoid them, and instead what I do is I have somebody who I really trust and love go in and take a look at them and let me know They'll pass on the good ones that will encourage me to keep going. And then if there are negative ones that have some validity to them, because sometimes criticism can be good, like sometimes it can hurt, but, you know, we're all learning as we go. Right? We we all look back and go, oh, that was stupid of me, or that was problematic, or what what was I thinking then? And so she can tell me, like, alright. Well, this is something that people have some concerns about. And I can I can look at it and either go, oh, okay? Well, that's legitimate, or I can go, I still wanna be true to what I feel. So yeah. Yeah. I think it's good to have people on your side who want the best for you, who aren't going to overprotect you, but also aren't gonna throw you out into the wolves.

[12:43]Zibby Owens: Very good. Very good advice. How is everything at the bookstore these days?

[12:47]Jenny Lawson: It's really good. It's, you know, it's it's Texas, and Texas is a a tough place to have an independent bookshop. But we have such a great community, and it's really kind of found its feet. You know, we we have a great, like, online community and people that are parts of the book club and things like that, but it's really found its speed as just, like, a a wonderful community place where people come to gather and to talk and to meet and to just hang out in the bar. And I don't know. It's I it makes me so happy. I had I was in yesterday, and a woman came in, and her mother had just died the week before and she was down to help with the funeral and everything. And she said this was my mom's favorite store. And so in memory of her, we went and picked 20 books in the kids section that she really loved and just wrote little little sticky notes on them about, you know, this is a gift from my mother, and then just put them up at the at the front so that people could just have a free book and be thankful for, you know, as a stranger who had passed but who loved stories. I don't know, it was kind of wonderful.

[14:08]Zibby Owens: That is so nice. That's so nice. Oh my gosh. You know, there are a lot of tasks involved in owning a bookstore and can seem overwhelming, but the people who come in and the book magic that happens and going from frontless spying to, you know, having someone walk out holding a book. I mean, there's, like, nothing better except when they come back and say, like, oh my gosh. I loved it. Yes. Yes. And they're like, oh, no. Yeah. That was a that was a great pick. What's the next one?

[14:36]Jenny Lawson: Isn't that the best? You know, people don't realize how it is really I mean, you know, it is so much harder than you think it's going to be, but it is also so much more rewarding.

[14:48]Zibby Owens: So yeah. Someone came in when I was at the store two days ago, and she was like, I want a business book, but I kind of want like a women's something or other. And anyway, I suggested they all came to Barney's by Jean Preston, and she's like, Oh, that's perfect. But now I've found myself thinking the last couple of days, Is she liking it? What is I don't know. If you're out there and that was you who bought the book, let me know if you liked it.

[15:11]Jenny Lawson: It's really hard. Yeah. Pick there's two book clubs that I pick for, and then we send off the books. And every single time, I'm like, is this the right book? Is this the right book? And in the end, I have to just say, like, okay. Well, what's the book that spoke to me the most that month? And just trust that the majority of the people will go, okay. Alright. Yeah. I see where you're going. And I say, okay.

[15:36]Zibby Owens: As a bookstore owner, when you were doing this book, How to Be Okay When Nothing is Okay, like, Were there things you used where you're like, you know what, no one's writing about how the world's on fire and I need to write this? Or were you like, I haven't seen a lot of blue covers lately. How much do feel like you took the bookstore knowledge to inform the book? If at all, and maybe not.

[15:58]Jenny Lawson: Yeah. Let's see. Well, I think I think what I what I pulled the most from is the knowledge of all the things that I was doing wrong or the things that I learned in the time that I've been there because I continually screw things up. I think I wrote about this in the in the book that when I was picking books for the book club, I wanted to find books that published on the beginning of the month so that we could mail them all out. 2020. Yes. Oh, exactly. That. Yes. I was like, come on. I every time I would look through, I would I would be like, all of these books, they all come out on the twentieth. Why do books always come out on the twentieth? And my team was like, what are you talking about on the twentieth? They they came out on Tuesdays that were and I was like, no. And I showed them on the spine, and I was like, see, March 20, February 20, and '20 was the the year. It was not and, you know, I continually made mistakes like that over and over, and I think it's very easy when you're making dumb mistakes to be like, maybe I'm on the wrong path. Maybe I shouldn't be doing this. But instead, I just have to look at it like, okay. Well, maybe this is exactly the path I'm supposed to be on because I'm continuing to learn. And that's the only way that you have a life that's exciting. Because if I got to the point where I was like, I know everything I've done, then how boring would that be?

[17:27]Zibby Owens: You also write about in the book how you took to Substack to motivate yourself, kind of a daily accountability partner to yourself by putting out these drawings on a set schedule and coming to the end of it. And then you talk about how along the way you really loved Austin Kleon. Is that how you pronounce it? And you were like, I'm just going to write him. I'm just going to email him and say, it's the middle of the night. You're probably never going hear from me again, but I love what you're doing. And now I'm going go back to my crazy life and whatever. And then he wrote back and then you were like, actually, not I don't think I ever wrote him back, but I got his email. You're so funny. Talk about the substack love between between you guys and and you and your own accountability partner.

[18:08]Jenny Lawson: So I I love to draw. That's one of my and and I think creativity is so important. It's such a gift that you give to yourself and to others. And I always kill just called them my doodles because then the pressure is off. And if I screw something up, it's like, no big deal. Whatever. But I found that I was much more likely to give myself time every night to draw, which was such a wonderful therapy for me if I knew that somebody was in some way counting on it. And so I decided I would do this one year thing where I would every Monday, I would post a a doodle and write a little thing about it. And I thought, you know, if maybe, you know, five people join the substack, then I'll have five people who were like, okay, I'm waiting for you. I know this is the deadline. And I I don't even know. I think there's maybe thousands of people who are subscribed to it. Mostly free subscribers. Most of my stuff is just free and just out there because I really just need somebody to go, hey, what are you doing? Why haven't you done this thing? And I don't know why it is that it's not easier for me to just say, but I enjoy this or but this is good for me. But for some reason, it becomes harder, I think, for for some reason, especially for women, I think we can feel like, well, but if I'm not getting something done, if I'm not doing the laundry or the dishes or, you know, working on my deadline or whatever it is that I'm doing, that this isn't valid work. Mhmm. But in fact, it's just the opposite. Because if you're doing the work that gives back to you, then you have the strength to give back to others. Plus, I'm, like, demonstrating for my kid, this is how you take time for yourself. Yourself. This is how you show the world how you deserve to be treated, and all that other stuff can fall by the side. You know, the dishes are gonna be there later. All of that, it's okay if we have cereal for dinner three nights in a row. Nobody's gonna die. It's okay.

[20:13]Zibby Owens: So Your point about maybe there are, like, five people out there, and that's okay because they're gonna be looking for it. I don't know if you ever watched the show at the middle. It was on, like, a while ago. Anyway, I'm sort of obsessed with the show right now. But there's a kid on the show who decides to start a podcast. He's obsessed with fonts. So he's like, I'm gonna write it. I'm gonna do this whole podcast about fonts. He does it for a week. And then after a week, he decides to stop and he's like, oof, that was harder than I thought. You know, I have to say goodbye to my one fan. But then at the end of the episode, you find out his one fan was actually Jimmy Kimmel, like Jimmy. So the point is, like, you don't know who the one in five. Now, of course, you tell us there are like tens of thousands of people who are following you, but you don't know who the one person is. You don't know whose life you're changing. And by you putting your doodles out there, who knows where they'll go? Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And I love, by the way, that you put that sticker about, you know, just write, it makes you feel better. Right? It's like it's going to make me feel better. And sometimes that's enough to get you to write. Not like you must do this, you must do this many words, da da da, but like, I'm going feel better after I do this. Exactly. It's like a gift I'm giving to future me.

[21:19]Jenny Lawson: So often, I'm like, okay, well, what's one healthy thing I can do today? And and, you know, I'm not I wish I was the kind of person who's like, oh, I think I should train for a marathon, or I should, you know, stop drinking vodka, or whatever it is. But instead, if I can say, what's one healthy decision I can make that tomorrow I'm gonna feel like, oh, yeah, I'm glad I did that. Those are never things that I regret. And so it makes it a little bit easier to make slightly healthier decisions. And and I, you know, one of the things that that I do, which I think this a lot of this stuff is not gonna make sense to people who are, I would say, super well adjusted because my husband looks at this book and he's like, why would you why would anybody need to tell you how to how to say no? How to set boundaries? Just say no. And I'm like, whatever. You're crazy. Okay. Now that that goes on the heels of just relax and Exactly. All those things. Don't worry. Just don't worry about it. Yeah. You're depressed. Just smile. It's okay. Everything's be happy. Okay. Exactly. Okay. Anyway, sorry I cut you off. Oh, no. That's okay. But now I forgot what I was gonna say. Wait. What was I talking about? Can you tell I haven't taken my ADHD meds? I think it's very obvious. It is very obvious.

[22:33]Zibby Owens: We were talking about how you don't regret things that you you never regret when you do things that make you feel good, like writing with a little sticky note. Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. Sorry.

[22:44]Jenny Lawson: So what I will often do is and this is probably somewhat unhealthy, but if I feel like I really I'm sort of slipping and I'm, you know, not doing the things to take care of myself, what I will do is I will think of, I'll pretend that I am somebody I love. And if I'm, like, overwhelmed because I have this deadline that's looming, but I have this executive dysfunction, so I'm super stressed about it, and I just keep thinking about it and thinking about it, but I don't actually do it, I will think, what if my kid was in this position? And I would go, oh, I would so easily open that up and be like, okay. It's done. It's done. You don't have to worry anymore. And so sometimes I will pretend that the things that I have to do are things that I have to do for somebody else. And it's so much it's so much better. Or sometimes I will think, okay. So my cat, Hunter S. Tomcat, who I absolutely adore, has saved my life multiple times just by just by existing. And and he's just a cat. Right? Like, he's just just a cat. I put that in quotes. And so sometimes when I start to feel like when depression starts to tell those lies and tell me that I'm not worth it, I think, well, I mean, the only thing that Hunter did today was, like, poop in a box and lay on my chest. And he was just the best thing ever. So maybe I maybe, like, all bets are off. Maybe you don't have to judge yourself in a particular way. And then I also look at, am I taking care of myself as much as I would take care of my pet? Because my pet needs fresh water, and they need time to sleep, and they need a a comfortable, warm place where they feel relaxed and safe, and they need to be able to play a little bit. And if I'm not giving myself the same things that I would give to a dog Mhmm. Then I need to kinda reassess and be like, oh, wait a minute. Because I wouldn't be like, you know what? I think this dog needs to work more. I think this dog needs to get up off her ass. She just looks so lazy. Does she not have work to do? Get up. Have a Diet Coke, dog. Let's eat some caffeine so that you can get things done. No. I would never do that. So why am I doing it to me?

[25:04]Zibby Owens: That's such a good point. Oh my gosh. I love that total mindset shift about expectations. And I love that you go on the Nextdoor app and tell your neighbors that you just want to snuggle one of their kids. Does anyone have a cat I can snuggle with? I'm just in the mood. And that your neighbors are like, Okay, Jenny, sure. And next thing you know, you have somebody, some kitten in your lap that you can just nuzzle into and make yourself feel better, and then they feel better having helped you achieve that. The things you put in are like They're simple, but nobody thinks about doing them. And so that's what's the genius behind them. Easy to accomplish and really helpful, but just a little bit different. Right? Exactly. Exactly. Just doing something in a a strange sort of way can sometimes

[25:58]Jenny Lawson: end up being something that becomes a normal part of your life. And and I did like, when I put it out on the Nextdoor app, I was like, please don't murder me. Also, I'm not a serial killer. But if you happen to have a kitten that you need because my cats are like these big fat loafs and I love them, but I just really am having a really rough day and I would love if somebody has a kitten. If I could just just play with it for thirty minutes, that would be great. And yeah, all these people were like, oh, I'm fostering kittens and I'm this. And so not only was I able to do that, but so many people in the comments saw all these people saying, oh, I have this and this. And then they started making connections and say like, oh, can could I can I can I play with the kitten for you know? And then they ended up adopting a whole bunch of these kittens and having these connections in such an amazing, wonderful way. And I think it's very easy for us to forget that most people out there are lovely and kind and wanna help you. And so reaching out and asking for help, even in the weirdest possible way, there's almost always going to be somebody who's like, oh, yeah. Same. Same club. We're the same kind of weird. And that's so affirming and reassuring.

[27:14]Zibby Owens: Amazing. And just to close, you had one quote here at the end, and you have quotes scattered throughout this whole book, are amazing. Like if, you know, you could have just done a quote book and that would have been helpful. Shannon Hale, I'm writing a first draft and reminding myself that I'm simply shoveling sand into a box so that later I can build castles. Isn't that good? I love that so much. I love that so much. Me too. Me too.

[27:41]Jenny Lawson: And it's so true.

[27:43]Zibby Owens: Jenny, thank you so much. I could have talked to you, like, for a hundred hours. Every single little tidbit that you put in here is useful and fun and

[27:51]Jenny Lawson: interesting to read, and people are gonna love this book. So thank you for writing it. Oh my gosh. You are the best, and you're amazing. And I thing. I would love to just sit in here and pick your brain about a million different things. But I know that you're busy and you have lots of things going on.

[28:08]Zibby Owens: But I'm so glad I got to talk to you. As do you. Okay. I'll be rooting for you. Alright. See you later. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.