An “It Girl” Worth Knowing with Allison Pataki

[1:33]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to totally booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zippymedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zippy owens. Allison Petaki is back on Totally Booked. She has been on here probably more than anybody because she is so prolific. Her latest novel is called It Girl, and this was recorded live at the Whitby at Totally Booked Live. Alison Pataki is the New York Times bestselling author of The Traitor's Wife, The Accidental Empress, Cece, The Queen's Fortune, The Magnificent Lives of Marjorie Post, Finding Margaret Fuller, Beauty in the Broken Places, and two children's books with Maria Myers. Her novels have been translated into more than 20 languages. A former news writer and producer, Alison has written for The New York Times, USA Today, and other outlets. She has appeared on Today, Good Morning America, and Morning Joe. She graduated cum laude from Yale University and lives in New York with her husband and family.

[3:00]Allison Pataki: Welcome to Totally Booked Live at The Whitby. I am so excited to be here today with Alison Pataki to talk about her newest book, It Girl. Welcome. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you. Zibby, this is a first for us doing this together in person It's true. For the podcast. I know. We've done you keep coming out with books. We've done this, like, 10 times. You keep very graciously inviting me back. Thank you. I remember when it was, like, trailblazing to be Zibby Owen's three peep. That's right. That's right. It's it's a few more than that. I think it was 2018

[3:32]Zibby Owens: the first time we Wait. Talk about synced up. What were all the books that you were on the show for? The first one was the memoir. Yes. Oh my gosh. And the Broken Places.

[3:39]Allison Pataki: If you have not read that, people in the audience and listening, it is a beautiful book. We connected in that, and you were That's right. Relatively new to the podcast at that point. Yeah. But we had a backstory together. And then this is so this is book number 11. Wow. I have to remember because there's been a nonfiction and then two children's books, and then the rest are historical fiction. So when my brain tries to keep track of how many of each, it's hard. So I'm just gonna remember the number 11. I can do that. You can you can do that. If that's I mean, if you can remember all these facts to put the stories together.

[4:11]Zibby Owens: And it's so great because now you're introducing me to all these amazing women, and I'm learning so much about history and

[4:17]Allison Pataki: things I had no idea about. So thank you. Well, that's thanks to the genre of historical fiction. Anna Quinlan made a really great remark about how there's storytelling of facts and then there's facts with ruffles, and I thought that really is apt for historical fiction as well. And this one, I would argue, It Girl, is facts with sparkles. I would say this is a sparkly

[4:39]Zibby Owens: telling of inspired by the historical facts. And I was I didn't realize until I got to the end of the book and then read your afterword Yes. That actually you did change some of the narrative Yes. Of what happened. Yes. It was sort of like a wishful thinking Absolutely.

[4:54]Allison Pataki: Interpretation. It I love that way of putting it, a wishful thinking interpretation. I am particularly excited about this book because it is a new experience for me as a storyteller. And I write historical fiction inspired by these forgotten women from history, these unsung heroines whose names have sort of been relegated to the footnotes or the sidelines, if you will. And I have stuck very closely to such an extent that it's sort of biographical historical fiction previously. This book presented such an opportunity for a new way of telling this woman's story, Evelyn Nesbitt. It's inspired by Evelyn Nesbitt. Let's back up. What is this book about? Yes. So this book, It Girl, is about the first self made female pop cultural icon in American society. We go back to New York City a century ago, the dawn of the twentieth century, this moment in time where there are these tectonic shifts happening. So the Gilded Age is sort of breaking wide open. You know, Mrs. Astor's control over society and the 400 people who can fit in her ballroom sort of determining everything is giving way because of these huge cultural phenomena that are all happening simultaneously where you have mass media, you have photography, you have advertising, you have this new thing called Broadway, with shows and musicals and entertainment. And so for the first time, you have this crop of young, self made women who are rising in sort of the status and the society pages, not because they are the debutantes and the society brides of the blue blooded 400, but because they are stars. They are the Broadway performers. They are the artists' muses, the models who are inspiring, you know, these great artists, if you will, the first influencers and the first self made female celebrities. And so there was much more going on, you know, at at the time, but you had Thomas Edison inventing electricity, you had the subway, You had the motor car. You had Teddy Roosevelt. You had sort of youth, and everything is fresh and bold and new and breaking open. And at the top of all of this, rising sort of to the to the cream of of all of this social change is this young phenom, Evelyn Nesbitt. So before Marilyn Monroe, before Taylor Swift, before these iconic showgirls who took America by storm, there was this woman, Evelyn Nesbitt. She was known as the Gibson Girl. She was known as America's Eve, and she was this fascinating blend of talent, charisma, beauty, allure, star power, and then the fairy tale sort of takes a real and dark and grisly gritty turn on the currents she gets pulled into. So it's this true story of drama and crime and obsession and love and lust and fame and female superstardom. Well, Evelyn's

[7:56]Zibby Owens: journey started out in a very difficult way, and you have this very compelling scene in the beginning where she, along with her mother, who is a single mom, she has two kids, and it's Christmas time, and they literally go to a wealthy neighbor, so to speak, and on their doorstep just say, look, it's Christmas. Like, can you just help us out? Is there anything you can do? And this woman sort of haughtily says, okay, fine, like, here's $5. Just, like, go. And she ends up playing a huge role, and we go from that moment to where Evelyn later on remeets this woman, and it's just one of many storylines throughout the book that you're like, I look at how that all happened. Talk a little bit about that because Yes. You can so quickly you show how in society, especially then, like, can go from being on the outside of the door to being on the inside of the door. Absolutely. That woman plays a huge role in her life and truly did.

[8:53]Allison Pataki: And it was Christmas, and she was 13, and it was also her birthday. And so the true facts of this story are such that Evelyn Nesbitt was born as this beauty in Coal Country, Pennsylvania. Born to a modest family, but a pretty solidly middle class family, but then tragedy strikes when her father dies suddenly, and they are left with nothing, and she becomes sort of the parent, the breadwinner. She's thrust into this role at the age of 13 where she becomes the provider for her mother and her brother. True story. And so she's working. She's lying about her age. She's working at Wanamaker's department store in Pennsylvania, and she is spotted by a local artist. And this local artist sort of takes one look at her and asks, Would you ever consider posing for me, modeling for me? And Evelyn had never really considered that, but then she learns that she'd get paid a dollar a day and she'd be able to feed her family. And everything seems sort of on the up and up because her mother's allowed to accompany her. And so she starts very, very modestly just by sitting for this one artist, and from there she is quickly spotted, identified, and pulled, where in no time she's being recruited and working with the top artists of the time, like James Carroll Beckwith, Frederick Church, and Charles Dana Gibson. Now Charles Dana Gibson was sort of the taste maker because if you posed for Gibson, you were a Gibson girl. And every girl in America wanted to do her hair like the Gibson girl. If you've seen those black and white pen pen and ink images of the huge bouffant hairstyle, men wanted them, women wanted to be them. That's why I say they were the first influencers because it was like the girls would put the pictures of the Gibson girls up on their walls and just try to emulate them. And so Evelyn sat for this iconic Gibson image where he fashioned her thick, beautiful, dark ponytail to look like a question mark, and he named it Woman, the eternal question. Now the crux of that is that she was not a woman. She was a girl, but she got pulled into this huge otherworldly celebrity at that point, to the status of an otherworldly celebrity. And from there, it was sort of just like a a rocket to the moon, and and then everyone wanted to work with her, and then Broadway wanted her, and then all the influential influential men who were investors in in the Broadway shows and who were the pacesetters of society. They all wanted to meet her, and so then she gets pulled into this world. And and really, she's she's thrown to the wolves in a sense that she's she's without protection at that point.

[11:35]Zibby Owens: And actually, it was interesting, you talk She gets embroiled in this horrific relationship, especially with an older man that is and beyond she's left on her own. And actually, once you get to the later part of the story where she's out of it, it's only then that she feels her mother may have been complicit in some way. And I feel like that is a whole secondary level of loss and shame that she feels, even having gotten past it. Yes, because her mother was so absent,

[12:09]Allison Pataki: and that was a choice too. And that continued to play out over the course of her entire life. Her feelings of confusion and feelings of not fully understanding even how she felt about that I'll call it a liaison rather than a relationship, but she the true memoirs of Evelyn, she's still very much processing all of that. And so that is inspired by the true story, the true character of Stanford White. And so Stanford White, was her first patron, benefactor, protector, you know, there were all sorts of ways that society sort of glossed over and named these relationships between these powerful, wealthy, young, old men and the beautiful, young, impressionable, vulnerable girls upon whom they prayed. And it wasn't an uncommon dynamic at all to have a young Broadway star or artist model or muse or performer to have a benefactor patron boyfriend. And so Stanford White, what he was known as the pharaoh of 5th Avenue. He was arguably the most powerful man in New York City, if not American culture. He built the Washington Square Arch. He built parts of Columbia campus. He built he had a hand in the plaza, Madison Square Garden. And so and then you have he's over twice her age, and he has all the money, and he's an investor in her show. And so you have all of this sort of swirling when they meet. And it was it was interesting because it was it was not the first time I had written about this phenomenon, but it was the most overt, what we would now call love bombing. He love bombs her, and she was totally overwhelmed and swept away and powerless as she's pulled into his world. There's almost a parallel here with the Jeffrey Epstein's. Oh, it kept that kept coming up. Yeah. There's that that kept coming up as I was working on this book and as I've been thinking about this book. There's parallels with the Epstein stories that are coming out. I was also reading the Britney Spears memoir while I was working on this book, and I could not get over the parallels. And the Marilyn Monroe is having a moment now because this is her one hundredth birthday. And so I feel like there's been a resurgence of Marilyn Monroe interest in pop culture and in books in particular this year, and the parallels are staggering. Where there are parallels but in sort of a corrective way are the way that I have been watching Taylor Swift's Showgirl era. Because that she you know, she dropped The Life of a Showgirl this fall, and she similarly, as is the case with this book, is exploring those themes of what it's like to be a performer and to have that sparkle and glamour, but the bruises and as she calls them, the pearls of wisdom, that what's happening behind the scenes when you are a showgirl and when you are a human who bleeds and is vulnerable and is is a mere mortal, but who has this persona that is sort of immortal or larger than life. And what's been interesting there is to just see, though, that she's empowered. You know, she was protected. She had a smart team, she had a good team, she had a solid team, and she's a smart businesswoman and she's a boss versus, you know, more of like the Epstein stories or the Marilyn Monroe side of things. Evelyn did not have the sort of resources and protection and advocacy that Taylor Swift had. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

[15:42]Zibby Owens: Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for everyday. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 percent less than similar brands. Quince works directly with Ethical Factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[18:39]Zibby Owens: I mean, I was reading the book in part with my mom hat on as I guess I do most things. Oh, Yeah. Exactly. I have teenage daughters. Yes. The idea like, the spotlight that that Evelyn was in and how taken advantage she was and how young. I mean, it sounds like Yes. Maybe she was more mature or whatever, but no. Right? You have girls. How do you feel

[19:01]Allison Pataki: from that angle? Yes. I have three girls. And so she was so young, Evelyn, and wise beyond her years, but out of necessity, not not a, you know, a wisdom that you want to glean. You know, it's it's a it's a dubious award to have that wisdom that young. But where so I I was playing around with Evelyn, or I guess I will just say her story has haunted me for almost a decade. I remember I was on a panel actually with you for one of your retreats in the depths of 2020 COVID. And we were supposed to be away in person at the Ocean House Mhmm. And the panel would have been in person with Deborah Goodrich Royce, Linda Leuchman Yes. Susie Schnall, and Nikola Harrison. Yes. And because it was COVID, we did it virtually. So we all zoomed in, and so I know it was 2020 because it was the depths of COVID. And we're all on the Zoom, and Deborah Goodrich Royce has her laptop and she says or her computer screen, and she says, you know, you all write this historical fiction about these strong women from history. And she turns her computer screen, and she shows a nude that she has of Evelyn Nesbitt. At the and Evelyn was about 16 at the time of the painting that that Deborah had in in the flesh, and she said, one of you should write the book about Evelyn Nesbitt. And I almost fell through my chair because I'm working on the book about Evelyn Nesbitt as she's saying this, and I'm like, this is a panel full of historical fiction authors who write about women. What if someone scoops her up before I can finish this book? But so I I have that as a touch stone that it was 2020 when I was working on this book, so it was at least six years ago at this point. And why she haunted me but I didn't jump full heartedly into writing it immediately was because exactly what you said, how troubling it was as a mother, and just wanting to figure out the arc I wanted to write for her. And I've always, as I said, written this historical fiction where the facts make the bones, and the facts make the beginning, middle, and end point for me. And I just realized, at this point, as I was writing the story of Evelyn, I thought, I am going to write this one differently, and I am going to give her more of a a voice in crafting this ending in a way that the true Evelyn Nesbitt didn't ever get to have in her life. But that's when I remembered, I write fiction. I don't write biography. I get to write this book the way I want to. And so once the ending sort of unlocked for me, that's when I realized that I had to write this book and that I wanted to write this book and I could write this book. And do we think this is, like, allowed in historical fiction? Can you make up alternate ending? What do we think? Should we vote on this? You know who I talked to? I talked to Fiona Davis. Mhmm. And I talked to Kate Quinn, and I talked to Nikola Harrison, and I talked to these other historical fiction authors. And I realized all these authors are out here writing books that are inspired by history, inspired by facts or real life events or people, but then they're writing the novels with that as the kernel of inspiration as opposed to the hard and fast blueprint. And I realized, oh, I'm allowed to write this. I'm a novelist. I'm a historical fiction writer. And so I I saw this really wonderful quote by doctor O, and I'm paraphrasing it, but he said, the historian will tell you what happened. The novelist will tell you how it felt. And that is what I am doing. I am writing a story where the spirit of the woman, the times, the moment, and the events hopefully shines through, but is hopefully also an immersive, satisfying experience for the reader. And so what do you want people to take away from Evelyn's story? I want people to see that every once in a while, these figures emerge who not only shape and influence culture and history, but they define it. And that there are these people who sort of emerge in these moments in time who are larger than life. And that, you know, we we know their names. Obviously, right now in this moment, we'd say Taylor Swift is one of them. But that there is that the story behind the stage, the story about when you lift the veil and look into them as mortals and humans, people who dreamed and loved and felt and hurt and fell and got back up again, that that is really the worthy compelling piece of the story here. What it was like for them as humans as humans, not as stars, not as performers, but that this that this can be a story that of a woman whose life can be inspiring. And that, you know, this woman occupied this time where she had this incredible power to shape society, but ultimately, the story of her life and her heart and everything that went into her experience as a as a mortal human being is also worthy and beautiful and valuable to experience. I mean, it's really like the downside of fame. Mhmm. And it makes me wonder, what is our obligation? We are the consumers of the culture. Mhmm. Are don't we all play a role when people are taken advantage of? Because we're the ones making their fame or not? Maybe not. And I just I think about this all the time too as a mom. Like, one of the most important things we can just remember as as consumers but also just as humans is be kind. Just be it's not that hard, and the world needs that so much right now. And there's there's always an opportunity to just be kind. With a woman like Evelyn, or, you know, we see it all the time, there are these people who are built up and then there's just this joy with tearing them down. And we have to be careful because in this world with social media and with just constant, constant information available, there is it's easier, I think, to be unkind. There are more opportunities for it. Who has gotten your attention for the next one? I know you rarely share. Are you ready to share? I am almost ready to share. So with She always says things like this. I am so just superstitious with my books. Like, when I was on the panel with you, I shared with everyone on the panel afterwards, like, I'm writing about Evelyn because I wanted to make sure if if other people are doing it too, I'm also writing about her. Calling dibs in the author world. As my agent says, marking the tree. So I'm always kind of superstitious until it's out in the open and the deal is ready and I'm fully working on the book, but I have another woman who is the inspiration for the story, another American woman sticking in the twentieth century a little bit closer because I I have jumped, as you know, all over. I've jumped continents, countries, empires, centuries. My poor agent probably has whiplash, but I'm sticking with America for this next woman, and she was unbelievable and truly shaped a historical moment that was impactful for every single person in this room, and yet too few people know her name. And that's where I like to start. I like to start from that point of, how do I not know about this woman? And then telling you everything you should know about this woman and and why it's important to know her name. Amazing. And what about your children's books? Yes. And other Any more of those coming? Yes. So I have another children's book that will be coming pretty soon, a little over a year from now, that is inspired by a particular experience I've been having with one of my children that is deeply personal and close to home and and hopefully powerful to speak about. So I'll be able I'm gonna share that one soon too. I'm just so superstitious until it's ready to go. That one, will say, because it's children's books. As you know, 50% of the story is also the illustration. So that one, I'm going to be able to share a little bit more once we have the illustrations all locked in, and I'm so excited about that one. You know, writing a writing historical fiction is wonderful, but there's nothing like doing a reading with children. Right? That makes it pretty fun to go to a bookstore or a library or a school with children, so I love to do both. And just in closing, we've been talking a lot about female friendship today. Evelyn

[27:12]Zibby Owens: had a great friend who came to her towards the end and really rescued her from a dark, lonely time, and your ending has some partners in crime and all of that. Speak to female friendship. Yes. And maybe if a friend of yours has been particularly

[27:28]Allison Pataki: Absolutely. Important. Well, in fact, this book is filled with strong female friendships. In all of my books that are written and inspired by these strong women, usually a huge piece of the story arc is the marriage piece, the husband. This is the first book I've written where it's not defined in large part by a husband, and it's not defined in large part by a romantic relationship. This one is about the female friendships, really, at at various points and intersections in her life. And so, yeah, this book wouldn't happen without the females in her life. And I I mean, I love I love my girlfriends, my sisters, my mother, but I'm I'm still best friends with my childhood friends from when I was three. I have had seriously close friendships really at every point in my life from college to post college now, mother friends, you know, raising our children together. One or two really close friends from each of those phases that really just folds into your life and becomes like a sister. And in, you know, the the three AM people, the people you could call at 3AM when you're really having a crisis. I have had crises in my life. I have had serious moments where I have needed to call on those people, and they have shown up and vice versa. And I just couldn't imagine doing life without your girlfriends. We we all joke we just all wanna move into a commune together, and just that's really probably how children should be raised, is with your girlfriends. Would make everything a lot more fun. Just in closing, any advice to aspiring authors? Do it. Get started. Right? Because I think so many people have stories they want to tell that are in their heads, and for whatever reason, there is an impediment either real or perceived as to, like, why they shouldn't get started in that moment. And I would just say start it. Start writing. Put, you know, pen to paper or hand to keyboard with the understanding that whatever comes out is not going to be perfect. It's not going to be ready to shop to an agent or a publisher, but that the important thing is to get started and to get into it and to keep going. Keep going. I am not precious at all about my writing process. When I'm writing my first draft, it's garbage. I'm not sharing that with anyone. I'm not showing that to anyone. But you edit, you rewrite, you revisit, you keep at it, and then be be mindful and purposeful about who you share those early drafts with. Because when it is the tiny little vulnerable flame, you can show it to someone who can blow out that flame, or you can show it to someone who will help fan that inspiration and will support you to keep going because it's not gonna be perfect on the first round. It's not gonna be perfect on the one hundredth round. It's never gonna be perfect. But the important thing is that you just keep doing it. Amazing. Ally, thank you so much. Thank you, Zibby. Thank you.

[30:20]Zibby Owens: Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.