Confronting High-Functioning Depression with Rachel Tzvia Back

[1:32]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest bestselling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zippymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens. Rachel Zivia Back is the author of The Dark Robed Mother, which is a memoir. She is a poet, a translator, and a professor of literature. She is the author of 12 books. Her poems and verse translations have received awards and recognitions, including the Times Literary Supplement Award, PEN Translation Prize, and finalist for the National Poetry Award in translation. Welcome. Thank you so much for coming on my podcast. I loved your book so much. Thank you. Okay. Can you please tell everybody the background of your of your book and basically what it's about? Okay. So it's a memoir,

[2:51]Rachel Tzvia Back: and it's a it's a depression memoir. It's titled The Dark Robed Mother. The title, The Dark Robed Mother, is one of the epithets that is given to Demeter in the ancient hymn to Demeter, Demeter being the goddess of agriculture, who loses her daughter to the underworld

[3:13]Zibby Owens: every year. Honestly, I didn't remember all the details of that. I mean, I didn't remember very much at all about that whole Greek myth and hearing it the way you told it Yeah. And the sadness of the mom and the darkness.

[3:29]Rachel Tzvia Back: Anyway, I loved how you related it. It's so it it it's always very moving to me how these ancient texts reverberate and retell us who we are. I have been reading the Hymn to Demeter for many years. I teach it, And still, it keeps on giving me new perspectives. And there was this moment when I was reread it's a short text. It's under 500 lines in length. And there was a moment I was rereading it in preparation for a class, and I suddenly saw what wasn't there, and it broke my heart open, which is that it's the story of Demeter's grief, the mother, which is a big story. Yes. But there's this girl who is taken into the underworld, Persephone, and her story isn't told. Mhmm. What what what has drawn her? What has pulled her down there? Why is she living in darkness? What is it to live in darkness? What is it to live in darkness and return to darkness with a startling, regularity? All of that is

[4:47]Zibby Owens: something that the hymn gives to us. Which, of course, is parallels what you explore with your own depression. And you tell us in the book how it starts after the birth of your first child, how you didn't know what was happening. Finally, you got some medication. You had a moment of bright light, and then it kinda wore off. You had more kids, and then it just, like, never came back and worked as well as it first had, and how you dealt with the darkness for the rest of your life as a high functioning depressive, and also how you read all the texts surrounding this and give your feedback on those too. This is so true. The that you retold that beautifully,

[5:28]Rachel Tzvia Back: that when I descended into darkness about two months after the birth of my first child, I didn't understand what was happening. And my last year medical student partner also didn't understand what was happening. And there's a moment in the book where I've been in this darkness for ten months and really continue to function, but I'm suffering in very serious ways. And finally, Jani takes me to a psychiatrist at the hospital, and it's this moment which just stays, you know, crystal clear in my mind where the psychiatrist looks at him and looks at me, and I'm just weeping incessantly, and Jani's trying to explain what's been happening. And she looks across at the two of us, and she says, For two clearly intelligent people, you're not very smart. And I carried that with me in a somewhat lighthearted way. Obviously, I could have taken it otherwise, but it felt like we really didn't understand what was happening. And I'll add to that that after I was given medication for the first time and I emerged from the underworld into the upper world, and there was light everywhere, and I thought, oh, this is what it feels like to be lighthearted, I thought that that was a one time thing and I would get through it and it would be over. And it wasn't, and it isn't.

[7:04]Zibby Owens: That's But at least you've got this book out of it. But I got a book out of it. There you go. Okay, that's a writer talking. Let's

[7:12]Rachel Tzvia Back: capitalize. But you're right. I mean I mean, I would I would if it were otherwise. But here is where I not to overstate it, I know I'll try not to cry. But I know that there are depression memoirs that I stumbled upon through the last thirty years that saved my life. I'm saying that very bluntly, that just happened to fall into my hand. Maybe I was looking for them, and they saved my life because they made me understand I wasn't crazy. I wasn't alone. I shouldn't be ashamed. And going back to your first question, where did this book come from? So having read I'm a poet. I'm not a prose writer. I'm a poet. That's where that's my work, and that's my passion. And this book announced itself after reading many, many depression memoirs and looking for a better representation of me Mhmm. And not finding me. Yep. And you know better than most that in the end we write the book we want to read. Yes. And that's what I did. And and and this is where I reiterate it is what is it to live with high functioning depression Yep. Which is very confusing Mhmm. To everybody Yep. And can be overlooked And in dangerous it's terrible for the people living in close proximity to it, and it's terrible for the person who is suffering in it. It gets very little acknowledgment, very little representation.

[9:02]Zibby Owens: So, I got a book out of it. Oh, my gosh. There you go. One of the most I mean, were many heartbreaking moments in the book. Mhmm. But when you write about your husband, Yoni, and your relationship, you talk about how when you first got together, you were this, intrepid soul who went to Israel and lived alone, and you were just, like, basically a total badass. Right? And he loved that. He's younger than you. He's like Three years younger than just thought I'm married to someone younger too. FYI, it's Yeah. Really he just looked up to you, thought you were, like, so strong and amazing. Yeah. And then when you went to that therapy session and he asked they asked the therapist asked about how he felt about you now and he said, I'm just so disappointed. And I I literally was like, tears are coming to my I'm, like, gonna cry again now. He's like, I'm just so disappointed in her. That's so sad. It makes it feel like there was something you could do about it. Do know? Like Yeah. So now you have me crying.

[10:03]Rachel Tzvia Back: But, I mean, it was a powerful moment, but it was also a good moment Yeah. Because he needed to be able to say that. And it's true. And it's okay. I mean, it's, you know, it's it's hard and it's painful, and I am not the woman he chose. And You are, though. I am and I am not. I mean, I'm both. And here, my beloved mother-in-law of blessed memory comes into the room. She and I were nothing alike. I mean, she was a very different kind of woman, but she was a powerhouse Mhmm. And she was a force to render with. And and her four sons saw her as, like, the the the, you know, the just the model Yeah. Of what they wanted for themselves. And I think in some way, Yoni thought I I again, I was nothing like her, but in the spirit, in the vigor, in the intrepidness. I was, and then I fell apart, and darkness descended upon me, and I descended into it. And Poryani had to live with that. And it's rough. It's rough. It really is. And I have a lot of compassion for him. I have a lot of compassion for me. I have a lot of compassion for my children. Yeah.

[11:21]Zibby Owens: That was another thing I thought you did that so interesting that I've, like, never seen before was when you had interviews with your three children Yeah. And what it was like growing up with you as a mother. Because as a reader, we can only take the author at face value. Yeah. Like and that's what I wanna know, what it was like for you. But then when you give us the context of what it was like for them Yeah. Then we get to see you even in more dimensions than just your story. But how did that feel? That couldn't have been easy.

[11:48]Rachel Tzvia Back: So so when I when I think, and also have been talking these last two weeks on why this book needed to be written, so the one reason was to represent high functioning depression, and the other reason was to represent or begin representing what it is to mother with depression, which I think I don't do a lot in the book, I do a little bit, and what it is to be mothered by a mother with depression. Now, the latter piece, what it is to be mothered by a mother with depression, is startlingly underrepresented. It's really quite amazing because there are many, many adult children of mothers with depression. And if it's not, you know, the book written by Anne Sexton's daughter, you know, then there's almost it's really amazing, and it's something I've been pondering a lot. I knew I wanted to give my children representation, and I knew I couldn't tell their story for them. My sister, Adena, of most blessed memory, was an oral historian, and what she would do is interview. That was her Mhmm. That was her mode. And I think that she just sent me Mhmm. The sent me the directions. This is what you do. You'll interview your children, and I embarked upon that. It was it was many things, but it was also really fun. And I say this to people who I mean, your children are growing into adulthood, so it's still a little bit early. But when your children are young adults, it's an opportunity to sit down with them with some agenda. Right? They knew this was for a book and that I wanted to hear their story very specifically about what it was to be mothered by a mother with depression. In the interviewer, here you are interviewing me. And so you ask the question and then I answer and it's my space. Mhmm. So my children knew that it was their space. This was not a dialogue. This was not a yes. I remember this. You remember that. This was theirs. And I think it was a gift for them. Mhmm. I think it felt safe enough for them to say what they needed to say, and they said hard things. Mhmm. But not things I didn't know. You know, I knew them more or less. I mean, some of the interviews were more difficult than others, and, you know, each child has his or her own world. And, you know, there was a lot of emotion in those interviews, but in in in an overview, I felt like it was a wonderful, wonderful opportunity for them and for me. And then I transcribed their the recordings, and then I had to translate them because they all three of them mostly spoke in in Hebrew, so I had to just transcribe them. And then I put it all together with the pieces that connect the interviews, and I sent the three of them the chapter. And I said, okay. This is your chapter. Read it. Weigh in. Tell me what you think. Tell me if it's okay. Tell me if you need me to change something. Tell me if you need me to revise. I'm here for it. And and they did. And there were things that they needed me to take out. And my daughter, who's very attentive to details, this is the funniest thing for me, She wasn't, she had opinions about some of the translation choices I made. Oh, interesting. You know, the words. She said, no, this word is not exact enough, which great. You know, I'm there for it. Oh my gosh. It was an opportunity. And I say this, I say that really, I feel like if people can take away from this book, like, this is something you can do. Mhmm. I think that we think about interviewing our parents as they get old and trying to capture their lives. Interview your children. Think about that.

[16:01]Zibby Owens: Love that. Yeah. I love that. Okay. I'm gonna try to find a way to do this. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and 365 returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zippy for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[18:18]Zibby Owens: This summer, JBL is on a mission to help you tune in to what you love. Audiobooks, podcasts, and everything in between with JBL's live headphones. These headphones are perfect because of their high res sound, making your fave stories and voices come alive with so much detail exactly the way they were made to be heard. Plus, they have eighty hours of battery life, so you can binge without pressing pause all summer long. Find your pair at jbl.com. Your sister, Adina. Yes. Oh my gosh. This loss, you painted such a beautiful picture of her. I could totally feel like I got to know her through you, which is another power, the magic of writing. Right? I didn't know this woman and Yeah. I never would have. Yeah. And now here she is, like, in my mind. It's it's crazy. She's such a wonderful woman. You two had such an amazing relationship. Yeah. And the loss of her Yeah. How it just slayed you. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Did it help to write about it? No. No?

[19:21]Rachel Tzvia Back: No. It was, obviously, it was the most difficult chapter to write. It was a chapter I was dreading to write and and knew I had to. And the other chapters I proceeded with pretty pretty easily, I would even say. That chapter just ripped me to shreds. And then when I was going through all the copyediting, it was like, that was always the chapter I was like, can I not read it again? Can I not? But obviously, it sits at the middle of the book. It's there at the center. Just like she was. Adina was my soul mate. And her early death is unacceptable. Mhmm. Unacceptable. I was also, over the years of living with depression, and then Adena died in 2008, there's a lot of confusion about what is depression and what is grief and how are the two similar? How are the two different? And obviously, there are many similarities. I mean, they're both born of some kind of loss. But the nature of the loss is different. And this, for me, is the critical element, and I speak this also with a great deal of critique toward our culture at large, that for me, goes on, will never ever end. Because the demon won't come back. And our society, our culture doesn't make room for that. Mhmm. The the notion is, so get over it. Especially as you say in the book, sibling loss. That it's so, you know, lower down the totem pole. Absolutely. And the term I use, which is not mine, it's a term by a psychologist, the notion of what is called disenfranchised grief. Right. That there are griefs which are legitimate. Mhmm. You know, God forbid that you should lose a child. Or when you lose a spouse or when you lose a parent, nobody talks about sibling loss. And for some of us, that's the center of our being. Mhmm. And how can it not be acknowledged? And I have a lot of respect for culture, for rituals of grieving and mourning and eat all of our cultures, and certainly in Judaism,

[21:46]Zibby Owens: also, you know, the seven days and the month and the year. I like that. It's nice. But what happens if you don't fit into that? And what if seven years later Yep. You're living with grief? Yeah. And who's why are other people to say when you should be over it Absolutely. Or how much of it should be allowed? Absolutely. Like, there's this tendency like, it was just her cousin. Well, no. They were best friends and they loved each other. It was just her friend. You can't say that. You don't know how much people love each other based on only your relationship to each other. Absolutely.

[22:19]Rachel Tzvia Back: That is such a truth. And I always remember that I had a young work in a college near Haifa, and there was a young administrator who I saw on the college group that she had lost her father. And I went to express condolences, and devastated. And I went back month later, and she was devastated. Her father was 65, and you could say, Well, you know, he didn't die too young, and this. I saw her. I saw that for her, this was loss that she could not accept, that this was grief that would continue. And I said to her, I said, Oshri, the world divides into two. There are those of us who have experienced this loss, and we know what it is, and then there are everybody else. Stay with us. We'll take

[23:16]Zibby Owens: care of each other. And I think there's truth to that. There's a lot of judgment in our culture about grief. That's true. A lot of judgment. This is gonna sound so left field, but my husband is a big football fan, so we were just well, I wasn't really watching. I was on my computer, and he was watching a documentary about the football player John Elway, who's, like, big Broncos. But, anyway, he's, like, a really big deal in Colorado, blah blah blah. And in this documentary, as I'm not paying much attention, we get to a part where he talks about his twin sister, who he's talked about the whole time. He's I don't know how old he is now. 70. And he talks about when he lost his twin sister, and he starts crying in the documentary and how he was the first person to see her and the last person to say goodbye and how he just couldn't be the same. And I started crying, and I have twins, and I was thinking about my twins and siblings. It's just that loss, that shattering of growing up with someone, and then I was watching that, and then I was reading your book, and I was just a mess. I was like, I can't anymore. It's it's a powerful, powerful reality.

[24:20]Rachel Tzvia Back: Yeah. It's so hard. You have twins? I have twins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can

[24:25]Zibby Owens: I just read at least one quote from the book? Of course. I screenshot it over and over again, as I was reading, but I'll just, okay, I'll just read a few of At first, it feels like I'm standing in a shadow and I can't seem to step outside of it. I can see that there is light to the left and the right of me, but not where I stand. The shadow gradually expands and lengthens, growing broader until it is not a shadow at all. There is then a then, though I wouldn't be able to locate it on a timeline when the it that was a shadow external to me becomes an it that is now inside of me as though it has the properties of that imagined poisonous gas we feared and sealed our rooms against all those months ago. This it has seeped under the door and into my body. Mhmm. So beautiful. Oh my gosh. You're such a good writer. Maybe we need one more. Oh, I like this part about Adena. I'm sorry. Not to make you cry again, but but now I know you cry all the time, so it's not that big a deal.

[25:18]Rachel Tzvia Back: Oh, true.

[25:20]Zibby Owens: Everything in me refuses this unacceptable reality. I will continue to refuse Adina's death for the rest of my life, which should have been intertwined with the rest of her life. It's a piercing summation of the mourner's secret position, writes Meghan O'Rourke. I have to say this person is dead, but I don't have to believe it. The words are highlighted in yellow in the clipped out article on my desk, the article's final words resonating with the impossible heartbreak of grief. I edit her words slightly for my truth. I have to say my sister is dead, but I don't have to accept it. Oh. So your whole experience, when we put down the book, what do you want us to know? What what should we take with us? What should the reader take with us? Even a reader who maybe doesn't have depression or how can life be improved now that we know? What do you want them to know?

[26:11]Rachel Tzvia Back: Here's another Tisha. Thank you very much. I I knew this as I was writing it, and now I feel it even more dramatically as I've been reading and talking to to readers who are expressing their own reality, but I knew it before also. There is still stigma about depression. It has to be acknowledged. You know, it's not what it was when I first descended in 1991. It's different. I know it's different, and there is, obviously, there are shelves and shelves of books, and there's more attention, but there is still stigma. Mhmm. One of the ways in which I've been experiencing that quite quite powerfully is that people keep on saying to me, you're so brave. Don't you hate when people say that? I hate it. I

[27:06]Zibby Owens: hate It's worst.

[27:08]Rachel Tzvia Back: It's And they think they're saying I know. Know. And I'm like, I'm so brave? What I mean, if I were to write a book about some other illness, would you say that? And I know what they're what they're experiencing is that I have exposed something that maybe I should not have exposed. So that that's one of the the things I'm hoping to shift in some small way that we should be more aware, all of us, and more accepting. I feel like so many people are suffering all It's just everywhere. And if you're not living with depression, someone you love is living with depression, and how are you dealing with that? And there's a great deal of loneliness in every part of that. Yes. Every part. And I mean, one of the good here, I'm going give myself praise. Of the good things about the book ahead. Is that it really does touch on many different relationships. So there's me and my mother. Yes. And there's my mother and her mother. Yes. My mother and her brother. And there's me and my children.

[28:18]Zibby Owens: That's why I'm saying I think I know everybody in your family. I know. I feel like you've walked in with, like, your whole cast My of whole tribe. Yeah. I know. And and and readers can find

[28:30]Rachel Tzvia Back: themselves And really, that's what we want to do as I mean, it's my story for me, but it's not my story for you. It's my story so that you can have your story spoken of and you can find yourself. The first time I read William Styron's Darkness Visible Mhmm. It came out in 1990. I descended into depression in 1991, and somehow it ended up in my hands 1992. Now, William Styron and I could not be more different from each other in terms of our ethno, you know, religious worlds. And I saw myself in his slender volume. And I, for a moment, was not alone. And that's a great gift that he gave me and, you know, thousands and thousands of other people. Now you're giving it back. And now I'm trying to give back. Like tikkun olam. They're tikkun olam.

[29:28]Zibby Owens: Okay. Ish? Yes.

[29:36]Rachel Tzvia Back: I yes, ish. Ish. That's you. Okay.

[29:40]Zibby Owens: That's a good term. I like that. I'm gonna adopt that from now on. You can have it. Okay. Thank you. Well, thank you. I'll tell you what I got from it, which is so much. But I got, a, to know you and a whole another family who I feel like are like my family friends now. I got to empathize so much and understand the experience even more intimately of what this particular it's not just high functioning depression, it's really severe, I mean, untreatable, resistant to treatment. Mhmm. And how you can take something that could feel hopeless and turn it into something that you learn to live with and the bad and the good and all of that, and and how isn't that really what life is, this mixed bag of what we get and how we deal? And so it's inspiring and So

[30:28]Rachel Tzvia Back: beautiful. Thank you. This was I feel very, very fortunate to have met you and to Now, be in conversation with tell everybody where they can buy the book. Where would you like them to buy the book? So, The Dark Robed Mother is published by Wesleyan University Press, a lovely, lovely press. And you can certainly buy the book at Wesleyan University Press, and you can also buy it on Amazon. Okay.

[30:53]Zibby Owens: It's amazing. Thank you. Thank you for coming Thank you. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

[31:48]Zibby Owens: This summer, JBL is on a mission to help you tune in to what you love, audiobooks, podcasts, and everything in between with JBL's live headphones. These headphones are perfect because of their high res sound, making your fave stories and voices come alive with so much detail exactly the way they were made to be heard. Plus, they have eighty hours of battery life, so you can binge without pressing pause all summer long. Find your pair at jbl.com.