Eileen Heisler and DeAnn Heline, Creators of “The Middle”

[1:35]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zippymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens. Okay. I think this is maybe my favorite episode that I've, like, ever done. One of them, definitely in the top five. I interviewed Aileen Heisler and Diane Helene, who are the co creators of the TV show, The Middle, which my family and I have been binging for months. There are nine seasons, and we are at the end of season five, which is sad because we don't wanna ever be done. Through a coincidence, which I add in the show notes well, I'll just say it. I wrote a substack for my ZIP members, which if you haven't upgraded, you should definitely do that. Anyway, I wrote an essay called here in the middle and talked about how I love the show so much and how it's actually helping my own family and me and everything. And then I sent the substack, and Jordan Roeder, who is an author who has been on this podcast for moms like us, she knew them somehow, got in touch, put us in touch. Turns out we all live in the Palisades together, where we have a part time home, and they had already read my essays on the fire. They shop at my bookstore. I couldn't believe it. And then we got to talk and have this whole conversation, and now we're gonna go out to lunch. And I have new friends, and I love them, and I love the show. They are one of TV's first female showrunning teams. Deanne and Eileen were the creators and executive producers of the hit comedy, The Middle. Since graduating from NYU's Tisch School of the Arts and also, I think, the University of Indiana, they've enjoyed a prolific thirty year career writing and producing classics like How I Met Your Mother, Ellen, Roseanne, and Murphy Brown. They are known for creating strong, smart female characters with their trademark blend of humor, heart, and humanity and have won prestigious awards, including the Golden Globe, the Humanitas Prize, multiple Critics Choice nominations, and the Peabody Award. As I said, live in LA but hail from the Midwest, which explains their lifelong love of salads made with Cool Whip. Enjoy. Welcome, Eileen and Deanne. I am so excited to have both of you here to talk about your show, The Middle, which as you know, I am completely and totally 100% obsessed with and could not be more excited to talk to you two about. Aw. That is so nice.

[4:30]DeAnn Heline: You made our day. You made our day.

[4:33]Zibby Owens: Okay. The middle has had this major resurgence. I have to say my kids discovered it because there are all these clips on TikTok. I don't even know how that happened. But they all were like all four of them in different, you know, ages and backgrounds, whatever. They're like, oh, yeah. I get shown these clips on TikTok too. Did you have anything to do with that? FYI.

[4:53]DeAnn Heline: Are as surprised as anybody.

[4:56]Eileen Heisler: We kinda hear from our kids, like, did you know, like, the middle is kinda like this all these clips on TikTok now? And we had no idea, had nothing to do with it. It's like people just keep finding and discovering the show, which is fantastic, which is great. It's so fun. It is fun for, like, the younger generation and young kids who, you know, weren't around or old enough to watch TV when it was originally on. So, it's fantastic. It's so cool. Funny. Like, kids sometimes bring

[5:21]DeAnn Heline: kids who are some of our earliest admirers, even, like, when we did the pilot and just showing it to our kids and our kids' friends. And sometimes kids make their parents watch it and they say, oh, this isn't what I thought it was gonna be. You're not the first person who said that, like, they walked in and saw their kid watching something they didn't really know and said, where'd you hear about that? And you never watched any series. Yes. So it's really, it's really, really awesome. It it makes us feel really good. It's almost like all of us think the show is for us.

[5:50]Zibby Owens: Right? Like, I feel like we're all actually just watching my show. Oh. But, like right? That's so funny. We just finished the episode. And as I've told you via email and everything, we have watched everyone. We're at the end of season five now. Oh. And even still, my younger son is just like, oh, no. We're more than halfway done. We don't want Oh my god. You still have three four seasons. Oh my god. I'm excited. I'm excited for you to see the end. I think we nailed our ending, and that's hard to do, you know? So yeah. But I won't spoil anything. Well, we just watched the episode where Frankie decides to have office hours because she, like, can't think straight. And I was like that and they were all my kids were all looking at me like, oh my god. That's you. Because they're like, what is wrong with your brain? And meanwhile, one of them is texting me like, reschedule the chiropractor. And the other one's like, mom, don't forget. How did you forget that? And I'm like, I don't know. I like, I can't. So it's so hard. Thank you for Frankie validating the that mom brain is because of all the inputs and not because of the brain. Your air traffic control, it just never stops.

[6:51]DeAnn Heline: And it doesn't stop when they get older either. You're

[6:54]Eileen Heisler: you're still keeping your own life and everyone else's life in your brain. But Yeah. So to Bethlehem, we we we always heard, you know, when we were doing the show, you have a it's like you have a camera in my kitchen or you have a camera in my living room, you know? And we used to hear that all the time. It is interesting because, obviously, the show is very specific about kind of, you know, the middle of the country, you know, the flyover states, that sort of thing. And then but we find that it really did resonate with everyone. I mean, it does really well in Europe, and it's like weird Latin America. Like, it'll be like, oh, it's also interesting that that country really likes it. You know? So it is interesting how you write something very specific, but it really is universal.

[7:34]Zibby Owens: So maybe we should back up a minute for those who have not watched The Middle or don't really understand what I'm talking about and talk about how the two of you teamed up and created this show at that time in your lives, where the inspiration came from,

[7:49]DeAnn Heline: and all of that. Sure. Well, every time we've been writing partners for a long time. We we have, you know, the great joy of having been friends since we were 18 years old. So we've been through every stage of life together. And we had a deal to create a show for ABC. And we were sitting, I think in a coffee shop and, you know, you're going, what are we gonna write about? They want something. What are we gonna do? And we sort of looked into each other's tired faces and thought like, well, you know, maybe we're exhausted moms. May there hasn't really been a single cam show from the point of view of an exhausted mother. It started there and then became, like, middle age, middle class, middle of the country and, you know, a DN can join, but both of us are from the group in the Midwest. And we just decided also we just come off of working on lipstick. Was that right then when we had done the struggle? Yeah, we done lipstick jungle, which everyone called wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment of everyone being so fancy and everything being so fabulous. And we as Midwesterners were always saying like, wait a minute. What I kind of wish for is what I grew up with and how it felt in the neighborhoods that we grew up with. And for us, we sort of felt like that honesty was wish fulfillment to us and we wanted to go back there. So it just kind of evolved, evolved from there and we picked and chose from our children's annoyances. My son was whispering to himself at the time. And and, Deanne, talk about your your grandpa's

[9:18]Eileen Heisler: who told you I loved you. Yeah. My the the end of the pilot, when Mike says to Frankie, she you says, never tell me you love me anymore. And this is a line that came from my grandpa where my grandma said, you never tell me you love me anymore. He said, I told you I love you the day I married you. If anything had changed, I'd have let you know. But it it is nice because it's when we look back on the on the nine years of the show, it really is like a video diary. Like, every argument we have with our husband, every, you know, annoyance with our kids or what do we wish for, you know, with our kids, or the yearning, or the all of that just went into the show. So it's it's fun to go back and and watch now. But it's funny, like, even when you said that when you were talking about the one episode you just watched, Like, I don't remember that at all. There's Yeah. I just remember what it talk is I'll see these clips, and I'm like, oh, right. I forgot about that one. So it's it's kinda fun to go back and look. Do do you want me to describe the episode in more detail? Would you mind? Yeah. But

[10:14]DeAnn Heline: it's funny. Deanne and I are both, like, each we switch off, but, I mean, each half of Frankie, I think, is both of us. Think, I don't think I ever aspire to the nice fruits, but but I think Deanne does and always has it. But our mix of, you know, sarcasm and laziness. You know, I was like the water mop. You know, people would just know, like, Aileen's going to work. You can bring water. You know? So I would just be like, where do I write the check for water? No one expected more from me than that. And No one expected to make cupcakes or the yeah. Yeah. Just did not. Yeah. We're just all doing the best we can. But now that we don't have the show, we have fights with our husbands and the annoyances with our kids, and they just fly into oblivion. We don't have the wonderful outlet to put on television.

[10:57]Zibby Owens: So I was listening to your episode on Eden Sherr's podcast. Oh. Right. Which is so funny, middling or, you know, when you guys were talking about that. And I didn't realize that originally the part of Frankie was going to Ricky Lake? Well,

[11:15]Eileen Heisler: yeah. We did two pilots. Yeah. We did two pilots. Yeah. We we had written it originally, god, was it 2007 or something? Yeah. It started in '9. So yeah. Probably '7. Yeah. And we cast it. And the only person who was the same from the original pilot versus the pilot with with Patty was Atticus who played, who plays a brick. So he was tiny, tiny on that pilot. So he was so he was the same, but all the other cast was different. Well, you know, when you're casting a pilot, it's weird because so much, especially

[11:45]DeAnn Heline: the way it used to be with pilot season, you know, it's sorta like the pilot gods are with you or they're not. You know, like casting at that time was very difficult. And it just was not the casting was not the people were not available. The things were not falling into place the way that they should. And and, you know, we didn't feel we had ideal we had casted ideally. It was you know, we had to do what we had to do to get the pilot made and then it didn't go, but people still held onto it. Like they liked something of it. They even held onto the cast actually for a while. But the first version was kind of dark. It was a little more indie film y than what ended up. And I don't know that that was our vision necessarily, but that's just kind of how it how it was. I think the way it ultimately ended up is closer to our original vision for the show. But, yeah, as difficult as it was to cast the first time, you know, the economy started to tank after, and there was a writer's strike and ABC found themselves with not as many, you know, scripts as they hoped. And we sort of our agent said, you know, what do you guys wanna do? We had like just a little bit of an inkling that they might be open to it. And I had always felt like this show is not done. Know, I sort of as the economy started tanking, we kept feeling like this is very close to our heart and it's still relevant. And I still just, I have a little gut feeling it's not done, you know? And so we got, he sort of introduced that idea to ABC. What if they, you know, did that again, they still don't feel they're done with it. And we miraculously were given that opportunity. And then the second time we got a call from one you know, first thing you have to do is cast and we got a call from a network executive that said, well, what do you think of Patricia Heaton? And we're just like, you know, what do we think of Patricia Heaton? I think, like, that would be the perfect person to to be in our show. And and we met with Patty, and and we hit it off, then it just rolled from there. Oh my gosh. It sounds Really lucky. Really, really lucky. Yeah. For sure. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[16:29]Zibby Owens: So and I also read about the spin off that didn't happen with Sue Sue Hag. And I I mentioned it to my husband, he's like, but that's just so Sue Heck that that would happen. So she She tried. She tried so hard. It is. Point. Yeah. It was I mean, you know, it it's too bad. I I think it was a shoe in. You know? I think people really adore,

[16:51]Eileen Heisler: you know, Sue. And to see her, you know, try and never the the premise was that, you know, she's graduated from college and she moved to Chicago, you know? And and Brad, her, you know, best friend was gonna be there also. And so It was so cute in it. They were really you know, with with to try and get an audience to new new eyeballs to a new to a new show. So to already have this character that's so beloved, but as frequently happens, so much of of whether a show goes or not is timing. And we were all off cycle because we had to finish the middle first, then do the pilot so we weren't in traditional pilot time. And then right in the middle of it, one of the network presidents got fired. And so then there was no one really to make their decision. It was at the end of the year, so they were running out of money.

[17:34]DeAnn Heline: So there was, I guess, that they're I guess they anyway, they said no, but I think it was a mistake. Well, it had to be decided by Thanksgiving, which is a strange time to have to decide. And I think there was so much flux. Like, the president that was there was gone. Someone else was coming in. Nobody was really in their jobs. I think it went up to, Bob Iger, who was, like, very much easier to say no than yes at Thanksgiving when you, you know, were not really involved with it. So that's sort what happened. Yeah. Yeah. It was a shame though because, I mean, I think that, you know, the timing was weird, but Eden was terrific. And I think even if they, you know, even if the pilot there were aspects of it that weren't perfect because of the we shot it so fast. But I really think and this doesn't go just for us, but for many shows, you know, if they took a breath and said, oh, there's a few things we didn't like about the pilot. Just redo it and get it, you know, and get it right. She's definitely worth investing in, and I I think it wasn't a great decision on their on their part. But Eden was really great. Yeah. The thing that's so

[18:32]Zibby Owens: just just to be like Frankie, the thing is, like, the emotions that are expressed in the show and the moment to moment things are so real. Like and it they're timeless too. Like, it doesn't matter that this was shot starting in 2009. Like, who cares? And it's 2026. It makes no difference. Like, families are families and the interactions between the siblings and the parents and all of these demands on motherhood. Like, this show and the way you presented it somehow just totally nailed it. What do you think? Like, I'm sure you've evaluated yourself. Like, how did the is it because you were so truthful and you didn't try to package it up? Or, like, like, what was it? And how can other people, like, tap into this other creators? Right? Everyone's trying so hard to create something that lands.

[19:25]Eileen Heisler: Like, how do you feel like you you did it? I I think that we always the writing that we love is writing that obviously can is rye, sarcastic, funny, but also has heart, you know, and is real. And there's plenty of shows, by the way, that don't necessarily have heart. I mean, Seinfeld is brilliant, you know, but we would not write Seinfeld because we just tend to like those more real moments. And it's interesting though, because I think it's really hard now because the truth is that what we did was just create characters that we know and put them in these situations that are every family can relate to. But that's a hard thing to sell. Right? You're going in, you're high, you bring your briefcase It's not high concept. You sit in front of the network and you say, here's a show and it's a family and it's a tired mom and here are the characters. But, you know, they wanna hear, they're on the moon and then this happens and one word or other, you know, like, because there's two different things. There's a show that you write and can go a nine years, and there's a show that you go in and you could pitch it and it sounds really great. And especially now, they're just looking for the hook, you know, and they're looking for that the the thing that's gonna make them, you know, click next, next, next on streaming, you know, next episode, next episode. And that's not always great writing. They're two very different things. It's always been that way in terms of selling what you wanna do. But it was lucky. Even more so now.

[20:50]DeAnn Heline: But I think the fact that why is it on? I mean, think we were really on I think we were pretty like, we're, Carl Reiner famously said, like, write what is the plot of land that only you stand on? What do you know that you think nobody else knows? And the more specifically that you write, a lot of times, I think then the more people it relates to. And I think we just really knew, I think we really knew Frankie's point of view and we really knew Mike was, you know, an amalgamation of many, you know, Midwestern men that we've known. And then I think also the writers that we hired were so truthful and they came in the meetings, we're meeting people with their own stories. Every It's And not just us as it rolled on, obviously every writer's marriages and kids and traumas all got folded in. But it was like a big therapy room. Mean, was just like what happened today. I mean, speaking of therapy and weird things like, I am not proud to say that this social worker coming to your house happened to my house. Only I was not the perp, I was Mike in that studio. My

[22:01]Eileen Heisler: husband had like, told my son, like, calm down or whatever, like, pressed on his shoulder, and my son had turned his head. And then she's talking about the episode where where Yeah. Frankie throws the the beer bottle because they're ready to get the trash ready, and he hits Brick, the shoulder or something. And so then Brick tells the kids at school.

[22:19]DeAnn Heline: And then, and so then the school has to call in social services. Yes. And in the show, Mike walked in to find police officers in the principal's office. In the real story, I walked in to find police officers in it. Oh my gosh. And you know, it was even in the time when this thing is happening, why it's happening and it's a mistake of your quirky child, the other part of your brain got to go, I know this is going to be a funny story, you know? And it it always started from the truth. I mean, there's so much truth, so many things really happened. There are some that are, obviously you stretch this and that, but I think it was kind of like a very truthful attitude. So I think it's like, what is your, and when you're really true to your voice, it's not hard because you know what they would say because they're real, you know? So it's just write what you know that that that is truthful. And we were right in the thick of it, and most of our writers were right in the thick of it at the time we were writing it. Yeah. But I really wanna know where they are now.

[23:20]Zibby Owens: I I mean, I know they don't exist. But to me to me, they really exist. I am like I, like, love the characters, really. Like, I Thank you. You I mean, I'm not saying this to be nice. I mean, I I inadvertently am being nice, I guess. But, they after so many hours spending time with such consistent characters and knowing everything they've gone through, Like, I feel like I'm owed. Have to keep watching to the end of this year. I wanna know where they are, like, today and grown up and all of that stuff. Do you wonder?

[23:56]Eileen Heisler: You wonder about them? Yeah. I mean, was weird when after nine years, it was fantastic, but we were ready to be done. But I have to say, like, on the last day that we were, you know, together as writers, obviously, it's about, like, leaving the the family that you know, you know, the writer family that you know. But to leave the Hex, like, you almost felt like you're abandoning them, you know, and it it really did. I Very painful. I remember I just sobbed like like my my boyfriend had broken up with me. That's how hard I sobbed that missing

[24:29]DeAnn Heline: the characters, you know, missing and and and feeling kind of like I don't know. It feels it does feel weird. Like, they're off they're they're somewhere, you know, but like it it it was very it was very emotional. It's like Mike in this speech wherein gosh. I don't I don't know if Zippy has gotten to this episode yet. When when Mike is nostalgic for when he had the whole family in the car and he says, I had it. I had everybody. And that's how we felt about that. You know, it's like, it is really like it was a not even like the week the show ended. It was like months, you know, like, just like wrenching them from you, you know? And and it's funny because I had a conversation with Neil Flynn at one point. And it's funny because as as you go on a long run with these actors and and these characters live in these actors. So you care deeply about these actors, their health, their their everything about them. And I said to Neil one time, I said, like, it's not like death of a salesman or something. Like, like, character, like, lives in you. No one else will ever play it. You're the only one who plays it. You're the only one who holds it. Like you are connected so thoroughly because you're sort of like co parents of this other person. Is a very, yeah, it's a very meaningful relationship. I think a lot of writers, we often say like the middle scratched a lot of itches for us in that it's like, we didn't end going, if only I could have a show where I could express my voice, if only I had the right actors playing the role, if only they'd let me tell the kind of stories I wanted to tell. We really, you know, did get to do the dream for a really long time. But but the hex will be okay. Don't worry. They will. No. You have to watch the last episode that Right. But we we think they are fine. We love them, and we would not let anything bad happen to them beyond the normal bad things that always happen to them.

[26:29]Eileen Heisler: I would imagine obviously, I've not written a novel, but any writer who you know, you've lived with those characters for so long that it's hard. But I do think that there is something about, you know, for us, nine years. And, you know, they grew up as a family. Like, you grew up, like, the first time, okay, we're sending Sue to college, and now we're, you know and

[26:49]DeAnn Heline: all the it really was like your own kids, you know, growing up. And so, I just think the nature of it and being a family show and watching the kids grow up and get older and find love and, you know, fail and all those things. Yeah. It really was like we were the custodians of this little family. I know. It's really weird. It's funny to talk to Eden now, who's a mother, you know, now she's a mom of three, you know? And she looks at, I mean, I think for a lot of the run of the show, she didn't even watch it because it would hurt. She felt it would hurt her performance to watch herself. And so I think even now she's seeing it and all of a sudden she's Frankie. You know? It's so and I feel so much like when like, with Eden having kids, it's like, I'm a grandmother. Yeah. I mean, it's like, you really, really feel so much ownership because they were just kids when they came to us. You know? They they just like, curious. Do you feel like

[27:39]Zibby Owens: what you get out of the show is different than what your kids get out of the show? I feel like it's helping us all gain an understanding of each other in a way that nothing else can do. And I say that jokingly, but also real in I mean, when we watch the episode of when Axl is at school and Mike is, like, on the couch watching the game Oh. And he's just so longing for Axel to call him. And he's like you know, and he and Frankie also have, like, this competitiveness, like, has he called and blah blah blah. But he was there. And then finally, at the end, Axel calls because Brick tells him to. Yeah. Yeah. And then they talk I'm literally gonna cry even thinking about because I watched that with my son, and then, like and he's at boarding school, actually. Anyway, so then he he, like, made an effort and called me when he went. And I was just like, that was because of you guys. I mean, it was Aw.

[28:30]Eileen Heisler: We're all gonna cry. It's funny. I am too. I'm tearing up. Well, we're happy to help. It's

[28:36]DeAnn Heline: funny because it's so raw. Like, I mean, I think in the writing, emotionally it was as raw as it is on Tiki. Because we were, you know, we cried in that writer's room. We laughed. People lost their parents, people's kids. I mean, we were just in it and I think we were aware of the bitter sweetness of all of it, being a parent at the time and that made it into the show. It was emotional. I mean, I'd cry watching scenes or all of that. And it was also, as I said, really great to make things come out right in the way they might not come out in your house. Like I used to say, we always had a thing I didn't I have a wonderful husband. Don't always feel that when I need that moment to back me up that sometimes he might side with the children. And I would say like, Mike would never do that. Mike would not do that. And he's like, well, you put the words out. Of course it would erode it, but it's like, you know, so great to be able to make parts of your life turn out maybe maybe scenes that you wish had turned out differently. You get to write them and Might as and do them. It yeah. It it it is very emotional. And did you get to the one where Mike does, like, cats in the cradle? Did you do he's gonna Yes. Cats in the cradle. I

[29:49]Zibby Owens: lost it.

[29:51]DeAnn Heline: Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it was funny because Neil, you know, is not a parent, you know, he practically became one from the middle for sure. I mean, he definitely was so much of a beautiful father daughter relationship, especially with Eden, but with all the kids. But I remember in that scene, was struggling a little bit with having to cry, with the emotion or not. He said like, why are they going to laugh? He was struggling with how am I going about this to elicit the reaction that you want? And it was just, we're just like, it's just so painful that you get up and just the words will do it, and he he trusted. And and it and it was such a beautiful scene. I just saw it the other day, and I was like Oh my gosh. Yeah. I should have brought that up. Are you

[30:39]Zibby Owens: all in touch? Like, are you still I know you're in touch with Eden and Brad. Is is everybody still in touch? Y'all go out to dinner and things like that? A little bit. Everyone's Patty's in in Nashville now, and and so we see we see Patty a lot. And

[30:53]DeAnn Heline: why you Charlie's, like, in England, so he kind of, you know, went off a bit. No one has seen him a bit lately, but we just we just I mean, our writer's room, I will say, lives in in virtual, text cyberspace, and we talk probably all the time, in our group chat all the time about everything. And if the cast DM was out of town, but, you know, we we lost Pat Finn, who who was Bill Norwood, passed Yes. Away I saw that. Recently, which was so heartbreaking. And and then a bunch of us were at, you know, his memorial service. And it is Neil, like, traded places with me to sit with Patty. That was so funny. But the you know, seeing all those faces, seeing a bunch of faces, even, know, our wardrobe person is there and then Brad is there and the one who, you know, played the the like Amishy, you know, wrestler at mister, you know, Grey Spanish. Yes. Yes. And seeing those faces in one location is so moving that it just just can't believe it because you it's been like, you saw them every day for, you know, nine years that, you know, people people do try to keep in touch and are always really

[32:03]Zibby Owens: it's a it's it is like a beautiful family thing when we see each other for sure. Well, I know you two have done so much since then. And by the way, the first lady, I went to college with Aaron Cooley. Oh my god. Wow. I literally, we both moved to LA after college, and I went to, like, his first apartment in, like, the La Brea whatever projects or whatever they're calling. My Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And and, like, I was so excited to watch it. And now I'm like, oh my gosh. You guys were they produced that too. This is this is, like, such a small. On that one, we did, like, a rewrite on Betty Ford. Like, that was kind of why, I guess, our Midwestern sensibility. Yeah. We we were kinda brought on just to do a very specific kind of rewrite. Oh,

[32:44]DeAnn Heline: But yeah. Yeah. And he was lovely. And and, yeah, it's been like yeah. Our our post show life, you know, interesting. You know, we worked on violence. We're working on a play now. Oh, what are you working on? Tell me. We're we're working on a play that I don't know. Do I make it the the the bizarre subject matter of our play. Do want me to say it? Well, yeah. I so we were in for years. So many years ago

[33:11]Eileen Heisler: We had this idea. In the Palisades. Aileen and I both lived in the Palisades, and Aileen got evacuated. This is several years ago. Aileen got evacuated because her area needed to be evacuated, so she came and stayed with me and along with her husband, and they were there for several days, them and their cat. We just kind of thought it's kind of funny that this idea of we're best friends, we spend every single second together, yet when you really have to live with someone or be with someone And your husband. Serving their marriage or your marriage, and we just kinda like this idea and thought this is a good idea for a play. And so we've been working on this play where it's the Palisades, it's a fire, people are evacuated.

[33:49]DeAnn Heline: And so it's really weird that then it actually happened and our house burned down. Both of our houses burned down. So we kind of feel like, did we will this by ride? Yeah. We were imagining, like, that we live, you know and I know you had your place here that and you have your place there too. That, you know, we live in this, like, green place with, you know, wet lawns, and we don't realize it's a desert and it's a fire place. When you live a nice life or your career has gone well and you think you can protect yourself from these, what would we do? What happens when literally the ground under your feet is removed? Then we couldn't believe that it happened. But we're picking it up again in this new context because all the emotions

[34:37]Eileen Heisler: that predicting are real. We keep writing it? Do we not write it? But I kind of thought, well, guess we have more to say about it now. So, we're kind of going It's funny,

[34:45]DeAnn Heline: but you It's know comedy, really. It's a comedy. Yeah, it's both. Yeah, we're picking that TV kind of was interrupting us in between, so it's taken us a little while, but it's nice. I mean, the middle gave us the chance to, like at this time of life, say what, we only really wanna write what we really wanna write. Yeah. So it's, and maybe a book, maybe a, you know, I will love to write a book of essays or other things too, you know? And it's hard when you've had an experience like the middle that was really like, even we shot on the Warner Brothers Ranch, you know, which was this I don't know if you've ever been there, but it was like an offshoot of the big Warner Brothers. And it and it was just this beautiful, like we just ran, we had the run of this place. It really was Orson for nine years. And since then in other television, we've wanted to, we've had the opportunity to work on different things and also supervise people and do other stuff. We haven't as much had the like that itch in television, we left it that on the field for that. And so now we're a little more looking toward what other ways do I wanna do I wanna write and get get stuff out there because we As

[35:56]Zibby Owens: I as I told you, wrote this essay, called Here in the Middle, and I was gonna call my next book Here in the Middle, but I'm not gonna call it that anymore. But I'm still gonna include the essay. But this is what's so stupid. Not stupid. But promote our show. Please give me a I will still promote your show. You guys can blurb my book. I'll send it to you. Anyway, I literally met someone on this retreat I just did who runs a library in Indiana. I was like, oh my gosh. And she's like, yeah. I would love you to come be a speaker when your book comes out. And I was like, no. You don't understand. Like, my book is about in part like, there's an essay about the Heck family, and I would love to come to Indiana because I love them. And my and I told my husband, like, guess what? We're going to an event in Indiana. And he's like, they film it in LA. I'm like, it's fine. I like now I have to go there. My my daughter's orthodontist is from Indiana. Now I'm like, I have all in common with her. Anyway, I'm going on and on and on. Like, overtime. That's amazing.

[36:57]DeAnn Heline: When we were at Disney World, it was funny when we shot at Disney World, that was like one of the first times that because we were like, you know, Modern Family got a lot of like the attention, you know, in the time that we were in our original run, we we were like the, oh yeah, you guys are, you know, critics loved us, but we weren't like the star. And we, then we're at Disney World, and it was like, oh, these are our people you know, the people from the Midwest and all the people who came to Disney World, we were like rock stars there, and it was the first time we even got a sense of how people were being impacted. You know? It was crazy. Crazy. Well, my mom

[37:29]Zibby Owens: my grandmother is from Cincinnati, and my mom is from Dayton. And I don't know. Maybe there's something in the blood of the Midwest. Yeah. Midwest knows Midwest. Yeah. And I and I was I grew up in Cincinnati. So Yes. I saw that. Well, if you guys ever wanna write a book, I know you would have a million offers, but I do publish books too. And anyway Amazing. We should talk. And Amazing. We love that story. I'm so excited about what you did, and thank you thank you for bringing my family closer together.

[37:57]DeAnn Heline: Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. And your essay, when it came it came to us, I I had not caught it. I'd seen your essay about the fire of funny, though I knew who you're writing. But then when it came to me, I was just like, I showed it to my mom, and I was like, I was we were so deeply Oh, yeah. You were so touched by the show. Very well. Yeah. It just means the world that you enjoy. I'm one of I'm one of millions, but, know Aw.

[38:19]Zibby Owens: Thank Well, thank you both so much. Yeah. To be continued in person Please. Yes. Thank you for letting me just, you know, like, gush.

[38:28]Eileen Heisler: Well, anytime. Same time tomorrow. Okay.

[38:32]Zibby Owens: Alright. Thank you both to the person. You too. You too. Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thanks so much. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.