Laura Dave, THE FIRST TIME I SAW HIM

[1:31]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zippymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram zibby owens. Laura Dave is the author of the first time I saw him. Laura is the number one New York Times bestselling author of several novels, including The Last Thing He Told Me and 800 Grapes. Her novels have sold more than 6,000,000 copies and have been translated into 40 languages. The Last Thing He Told Me was the Goodreads Mystery and Thriller of the Year for 2021 and is now a series on Apple TV plus co created by Laura and starring Jennifer Garner. She lives in Los Angeles with her husband and their son. Welcome back, Laura. So happy to have you on Totally Booked to talk about the first time I saw him, the sequel to the number one New York Times bestseller, The Last Thing He Told Me. Congratulations. Thank you so much. It's always so nice to see you. You too. I could not put this book down. I know that's, like, the point of the book, and I'm sure you'll hear this a zillion times, but I rarely get that. Not rarely. But, anyway, I just could not put it down. It was so good, and I couldn't wait to see what happened. Of course, I kept hearing, like, Jennifer Garner's voice in my head. Isn't that wild how that happens now? Right? It's crazy.

[3:17]Laura Dave: Now I, like, picture the characters from the show instead of, like, my own, I don't know, amalgamation or whatever. Yes. It's so funny. I I actually said to Jennifer that, you know, people often ask before this book, like, oh, did you picture someone when you were writing it? And never. But now that the show has happened when I was working on the second one, you know, Hannah has morphed in my head to be like Jennifer. So some of the scenes in which Hannah's more physical, part of that is because Jennifer is so physical and good at that physical stuff. And I think she got in there and into the writing process in that way. Did you always know you were gonna do a sequel? When did you decide to do a sequel to the first one? So I actually never thought I was. And then when the book came out and so many wonderful readers reached out and said, what happens next? I need to know what happens next. I realized I had an answer sort of whole cloth in my head that I had, you know, I knew that, you know, it ended at the design center, the first book. And I just sort of imagined what would happen next. I knew exactly where I thought it would pick up, but I never imagined writing a sequel. And then after I started getting those notes, I thought, let me sit down and just write a 100 pages, tell no one, see what if if what I think in my head I only wanted to do it if I was really gonna honor that first book. And so I wrote a 100 pages. I'm like, you know, in a matter of maybe two to three weeks, I wrote those first 100 pages. And I'm like, oh, I really truly know what's gonna happen here. And what's so crazy is the first book took me like ten years to write, but the very first ending of the first book, lived in a drawer next to my desk is basically the ending of this book, the second book. So I think I was always moving toward that ending. It just took me two books to get there, if that makes sense. Wow.

[5:11]Zibby Owens: This is a lesson in not deleting past drafts. Yes. You never know where the material is gonna go. Exactly.

[5:19]Laura Dave: Exactly. You just don't know. I think often, you know, I have on my computer something called the garbage file, in which I put, I really believe that what makes us writers is as much what we're willing to throw out as what we're willing to keep. And yet, that garbage file often comes back in the form of other stories, other books, other things we need to be exploring. And so, like, I think even mentally having a garbage file, having a drawer where you put things, it makes it easier to kill your darlings. And also to understand that, you know, 15 year old girls sometimes come back as older woodworkers, and a love story between two 20 can sometimes come back as a friendship between two older men. So you keep it and you hold it, and then you bring it back when it needs to come back. Amazing.

[6:10]Zibby Owens: Wait. So I know we talked about this, but just as to catch listeners up who might have missed our first episode or whatever or just don't know as much, how did you conceive of the book originally? Why did it take so long? And why have these characters just why do they have such a grasp on you?

[6:28]Laura Dave: So I started thinking about this book all the way the first book, the last thing he told me, all the way back in 2003 when I saw an interview with Linda Lay on the Today Show after, you know, the Enron scandal, just to remind people if they're not familiar with this, which was a huge financial scandal that, you know, had billion dollar implications. And the wife of the CEO, Linda Lay, was on the Today show after her husband was indicted, after the whole firm was indicted, saying he's done nothing wrong. And I started to imagine a woman who found herself in Linda Lay's position, who truly believed that. Leaving aside what Linda Lay did or did not think or know, just in my imagination, a woman who imagined that. But I only wanted to tell that story if she was gonna become the hero of the story, not the victim of whatever her husband did or did not do. And I sat down and put pen to paper in 2011. So already, we have, you know, eight years going on there. And Hannah Hall was sort of born. But I always had that original ending in my head. And it wasn't until my son was born in 2016 that I realized that first book was the primal story of someone becoming a mother. And that was the love story I was trying to tell in that first book. And when I unlock that, I let go of 70,000 of the 90,000 words in that Oh, my gosh. Again, and wrote the last thing he told me. So that was sort of the journey of that book. And, you know, they I think I was really interested. Gloria Steinem has this incredible quote in which I'm going to paraphrase. She talks about how important it is for women to watch other women become the hero of their own life. And I knew I wanted to tell that story. And Hannah Hall, for me, more than any character I've ever created, exemplified that journey. And so I think that's one of the reasons she has such a hold on me, because she's braver than I am. She trusts herself. And I think we all wanna lean into that in quiet and less quiet ways. How are we going to every day show up and become a hero of our own life? How are we gonna use our voice to do that? Wow.

[8:43]Zibby Owens: Well, the amount of detail in some of the planning and where Hannah went, what was set up ahead of time, how she exited, who she talked to so she could get out of this building and into this building and into this boat. Like, it was so intricate. And I was like, how is Laura even coming up with any of this stuff? Like, where are you getting it all from? Because it takes a certain I don't know. It just takes I don't have the skills.

[9:09]Laura Dave: Don't I don't know. Where does it come from? Well, if my husband were sitting here, he would say what he always says to me, which is, I do not understand how the person that plots this book cannot figure out how to load a dishwasher. So, like, I think, like, it's, like, it's interesting because I don't have some of the reasoning in real life or the but in in the in the book so I never outline. I always and that's one of the reasons also it takes me a long time to write a book because writing for me is rewriting. And that is the first thing I when I work with students, I always talk about. First drafts are terrible. They're supposed to be terrible. Be gentle with yourself. You will get there. That first draft is you telling yourself the story. But for me, I knew that with this book, I knew part of the journey that they were going to go on was in some ways an origin story. We had to go all the way back to figure out what happened before. So I knew I was playing in several timelines. And originally, I thought that the whole last third of the book took place at Fisher Island in Florida. And I do a ton of research. This is a long winded way of getting to how I do this, which is I do a ton of research. We went to Fisher Island, and I'm like, actually, that is not correct. And so I ended up throwing out 20,000 words that were gonna take place in Fisher Island. And I realized that they had to both metaphorically and literally go a lot further. And I landed on the South Of France. And when I figured that out and I picked a town, part of it was a town I'd heard about before this town called Eze, which is gonna play a large role. I saw the motto of the town was, In death, we are reborn. And quite literally, realized this on a Tuesday and something like twelve days later, my husband, my son, and I were on a plane to the South Of France to do that research. So I really sort of follow where I think the story needs to go, and I'm very willing to throw things out. I'm very willing to reimagine. And when I land on something, I land hard. And I'm like, let me get in there. Let me do the research. Let me spend time with people who sail. Let me spend time with people who live on the South Of France. Let's go to Eze. And we kind of, you know, I I do it. I go do the thing as if I'm Hannah. You know? That's sort of how I get there.

[11:32]Zibby Owens: Wow. Or maybe you just wanted to go to the South Of France. Yeah. Exactly.

[11:36]Laura Dave: I mean, you can package this up nicely. But let's be honest. Just wanted to go to France. Exactly. What's so funny about it is my new book that I just started writing. Actually, the first person I'm telling this to, I think a lot of it takes place in Aspen. Seems And like it I just spent a few weeks in Aspen to do start that research and start that process. And, you know, as, you know, as my family, we joke around, like, I'm not picking Siberia. Like, if I'm gonna go somewhere, I'm picking somewhere that I want to spend some time. But I really do love these towns that I love juxtaposing places where there's this wish fulfillment attached to those places and yet getting to what it's like to experience them in a real way. And where sometimes where that juxtaposition lives, where that paradox lives, is something grittier and interesting that I wanna get into.

[12:30]Zibby Owens: I love that. Okay. Well, maybe your next where where where can we think of great locations for your for your book after that? Just brainstorm the most luxurious

[12:39]Laura Dave: places. Exactly.

[12:41]Zibby Owens: Oh, my gosh. You should have, like, hospitality tourism boards competing for your for the right to pick. So

[12:50]Laura Dave: funny. Well, it's funny because one of the hotels in the first time I saw him is this hotel called La Reserve in Paris, which is just this tiny, magical hotel. And it really feels like you're staying in a Parisian apartment. And, you know, I was doing significant research on the days that I was there. And the help that some of these places will provide for you when you say, I'm writing a novel. I need to go deep on this street. Like, if it's a really special place like that, you know, they're with you. The team there was incredible and being like, you want to go here and you want to think about this, and this is the history. And it just makes it a really, you know, sort of magical experience. Because as you know, all too well, writing a book is a solitary experience. So when you have people around you really feeding it, it's really lovely. Wow.

[13:42]Zibby Owens: So did you feel any anxiety about following up? I mean, the first book was such a huge hit. Mhmm. The show. The book. I mean, it just, like, exploded since like, after we talked. It's, like, amazing to I've been so it's been so much fun to just watch you blow up. It's been great. But when you went to write, it doesn't sound like it. But when you went to write again, were you nervous? Like, what if this isn't as good, or do you just not have those inner voices? I have all those inner voices. I think part of the reason I spent a 100 pages quietly on my own before I even picked up the phone and called my agent to say, I think there's a

[14:19]Laura Dave: sequel, is that I only wanted to try to do this if I believed in my soul it was gonna be as good as the first book, or I just wasn't gonna do it. Because I feel so much responsibility to the readers who embrace this and care so much for these characters. And I have to tell you, I know we're not, as writers, supposed to be on Goodreads, we're not supposed to look. But I am looking at every early review, everyone who's reaching out, everyone who's saying to me, you know, this feels to me as good as the one before. It warms my heart because I have so much fear around that. And I just wanted to deliver a forward motion story and an origin story that extrapolated on that first book in a way that feels really rewarding. I was terrified. And But what was really nice was when I got to the end of not draft one, but maybe draft eight, I'm like, I feel like I did that. I feel like I honored these characters, and it let me have the freedom to really, you know, put the book out in a way that I feel good about. That's awesome. Well, it's so good. Mean, it's it's so good, and it's just great. I have to say gonna love it. When you posted that, I actually sent it to my publisher, and I I took a screenshot of it. And I said to my publisher, and I'm like, I feel like I can breathe a little easier because your opinion, as you know, matters so much to so many of us. And it was like, I can show you the screenshot I sent. Like, I was literally like

[15:52]Zibby Owens: because it was one of the first ones I got. And so I'm very grateful to you. Oh, you're so welcome. I mean, I wanted to let everybody else know too that, like, they needed to read it. I mean, it was for you, but really for the readers Yeah. To put it on their radars. Yeah. So good. So good. It's gonna I can't wait to watch. Have you like, has your life changed since all this success has happened, and what does that feel like? What is it the the the show piece of your life now? How much time does that take? Like airspace, like how much do you think about it? Do you not have to think about it at all anymore? Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quinn says beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibi for free shipping and three sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibi.

[19:08]Laura Dave: Well, there's a second season coming out in February. So the or book March. I'm not sure exactly, but around then. And the book comes out in January. So I with the first season, it took up a lot of my brain space. I was, you know, on set. I was very involved. With the second season, it was a really interesting process because I was writing the book. And so because I was writing the book, I couldn't. It would have messed with my mind too much to be in the writing room and do that. So instead we have a new showrunner who came in and I sort of walked him through what the book was going to be and gave him those pages. And but he knew the whole thing. Because at that point, I knew the whole thing. I was protective. I had written a draft, but I was very protective over it. So I gave him the pages I was ready to share, and I walked him through the back half of the book. And then he sort of took that and ran with it. So the show, this season, I was not as involved with until after I turned in the book. And then I got to see things and hear things, but I really kept kind of that wall up for the creative process because they were sort of happening in tandem. So it didn't take up a lot of my brain for the second season. Maybe for the third season. Now, if you know, if we're lucky enough to have a third season, it might again, because the book is done. And I you know, so but I didn't I didn't sort of go deep into that second season. The book I wrote in between the two books, The Night We Lost Him, I'm actually writing the movie for at the moment for Netflix. And so my head is now kind of in that world of thinking about adaptation again. But, yeah, that's sort of a long winded way of saying not a ton of my brain space went to the second season, but I'm so You know, also, the thing is, you know, and I know people have different experiences with having their books adapted or how that process goes. The people who have been involved in the show care so deeply about these characters, Jennifer Garner and Galloway Rice, the producers, you know. And so I feel very grateful. And I know your husband does this as well. I think you have to trust that process. And as a novelist, unless you're gonna be writing every episode, which I didn't this time, I think you look at that with gratitude. Like, you think, oh my god. They're giving it a second life, and it's gonna look different, and that's okay. And I'm just so grateful people care so much that they wanna do that. You know what I mean?

[21:39]Zibby Owens: I love that. Well, I feel like we're all really invested in all of the characters and and what happens to them. And, you know, they it becomes like public domain in a way. Right?

[21:49]Laura Dave: Yes. Yes. I do think it's so funny because, you know, as I said about the Goodreads thing or they say don't read don't read the reviews every day, but I can't help it because that's who I'm doing it for is for the readers. Right. And that matters so much to me. I still read every review I get on Amazon for the first book, and there's 150,000 of them or something like that, something crazy. And my husband's like, You really have to pull it together. To me, I was a reader before I was a writer, and I wrote letters to novelists that mattered so much to me in my teens. I wrote a letter to Nora Ephron, who wrote me back. And I wrote a letter to Ellen Gilchrist, who wrote me back. These people who and I hold those letters so dear, and they matter so much to me that the fact that I get to be on the other side of that and be the one I mean, not comparing myself to those people. I'm just saying the fact that I get to be a writer and hear from readers and respond to readers, it feels like the great gift of my creative life. And so I just take it really seriously.

[22:54]Zibby Owens: Wow. I feel like diving deep into those comments. I mean, you're lucky that I'm sure so many are good, but you just never never know. I feel like now I'm gonna have to write one just be like

[23:06]Laura Dave: a surprise on being like, Hey, Laura, just making sure you're still reading out your comments. I know. I have to pull it together because some of them, you know, you're never gonna please everyone as and we shouldn't. That shouldn't be what we're doing. You know? Everyone can have a different experience. And, of course and you're right. Like, it's not good. But, like, you know, because of that, so I will cut myself off at some point soon because it's not a good idea. But I just think I lead with gratitude that at this moment, when there's so much going on in the world and it's so chaotic, if someone's taking the time when they could be doing a million different things to pick up your book, to watch your show, to do those things, I feel so grateful. So I want it to be an experience that feels positive.

[23:53]Zibby Owens: So back to, though, how you structured, not the plot of the book, but all of the actions that happen and the thoughts. And were you secretly in the CIA, or do you have some sort of trick? Like, just spill it right now. It's okay. I can take it.

[24:12]Laura Dave: I am not. I am not in the CIA. I think for me, I always start with a question. And as silly as that sounds is that that could help with the labyrinth that, you know, a suspense novel demands, the question really moves me in a way that everything's circling around it, and it helps me build that almost pyramid of, oh my god, this, this, this, this, this. So for me, the question here is, it was a dual question. What will we do? What are we willing to do to be forgiven? How far will we go for a second chance? And everyone is trying to answer that in a different way. And when I realize that, then I understand how things connect to each other. And I get to have almost like a reader moments. And I'll go back and rewrite when I have the moment. Like Nicholas and Frank, just to remind readers, Nicholas is the grandfather character in the book who Hannah secures Bailey's safety with in The Last Thing He Told Me. And he plays a very large role in the second book. And there were several things that happened with him in his past and in his life that dictate what Hannah needs to do. And those were all moments for me while I was writing. And so when I realized it, then I go back in time. But one thing that happens with Nicholas, and it's a spoiler, so I won't say it. But one thing that happens with Nicholas, I knew going into the writing, and it dictated the entire first part of the book. And so knowing that, I knew what I was moving toward, if that makes sense. And it makes it makes it turn it turns it into puzzle pieces. The writing is puzzle pieces. And I think if you're loyal to the writing, you can feel when the click happens and that the puzzle piece is correct, and you can feel when you're forcing it and the puzzle piece is never gonna fit. You gotta be patient with yourself. So that's one way that I do it. Another thing that I do is I like to have that feeling in the book that you don't want to put the book down. And the way that I try to create that is by always staying in the story. I stop writing every day when I am anxious to get back to it the next day. And I think you know this, but I listened to the same song on repeat the entire time I'm writing, because I literally stopped the song and started again the next day. And it creates that sense for me that rhythmic flow to the writing. So for this book, it was Cardigan by Taylor Swift, and we all love her very much. And but it really almost the lyrics in that song spoke to the epigraph at the beginning of my book, which is a Harriet Selena poem, and to the motion of the book, which is, How do I make everyone come back to each other? And so that is another way that I kind of lean in. But no, no CIA. No CIA attorneys. Don't know. I would be the worst CIA operative of all. First of I would tell everyone. I'd be like, I'm in the CIA. You're in lean.

[27:15]Zibby Owens: And just one last thing, on A Mother's Love and how that became the crux of it. Just speak to that for a minute and how you honed in on that and

[27:25]Laura Dave: what that means to you. So I think for me, especially in becoming a mom, but, you know, also so many of us who don't sort of even have a child are moms to all sorts of people in our lives, caregivers to all sorts of people in our lives. And I think the common thread through all of that is when you wake up and you realize there is someone for whom you would do everything, and you would put that person ahead of yourself. And when that clicks in, when that primal love for somebody clicks in, and that becomes the true north of your life. And you will follow it into the dangers of despair into anything to be there for that person. That is where I realized I got to go all the way back to the initial question of watching Hannah become the hero of her life. Because for her, it was all about becoming the hero of this child's life, Bailey's life. And that resonated through both books. And it resonates for me through, you know, what is the great miracle of your life? And what will you do to honor that miracle? And for me, that's motherhood. So that really is the guiding light through both of these books.

[28:38]Zibby Owens: Amazing.

[28:40]Laura Dave: Laura, I'm so excited for you. It's so good. And I'm just I just can't wait till it comes out. Congratulations. Thank you so much. It was so lovely to get to speak to you. And you know how I feel about that library. It's a good choice.

[28:56]Zibby Owens: Take care. I hope to see you You too. Okay. Bye, love. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.