Lily King, HEART THE LOVER

[1:49]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. Here it is. Today is the number one most downloaded totally booked episode of 2025. Are you surprised? Had you already listened? Enjoy this episode. Thanks for tuning in to the last 10 episodes, which were a countdown of the 10 most downloaded totally booked episodes of 2025. I cannot wait to bring in 2026 and introduce you to so many more authors and episodes and conversations that will hopefully improve your life. I know they improve mine. Happy New Year. Lily King is the author of Heart the Lover. Lily is the New York Times bestselling author of six novels including Euphoria and Writers and Lovers, which she was on this podcast discussing, and the story collection Five Tuesdays in Winter. Actually, backing up, Writers and Lovers was one of my Zivvy's book club picks, and this is why, one of my very favorite books. And if you haven't read that, you must, and then you have to read Heart the Lover. Okay. Anyway, her work has won numerous prizes and awards, including the Kirkus Prize, the New England Book Award for fiction, the Maine Book Award for fiction, and a Whiting Award. She lives in Portland, Maine. Welcome back to Totally Booked. Lily, thank you for coming on to talk about Heart, the Lover, a novel. Congratulations.

[3:41]Lily King: Oh, thank you, Zibby. It's so great to be here. This is my my first interview. I mean, my first podcast, like official kind of thing. Oh,

[3:51]Zibby Owens: my gosh. Well, the book was so good. I cried at the end. I love the whole thing. I just the way you make your characters, how you craft them, they're so real. Their emotions are so real. Their families, just all of it. It's it's just so classic you and so good.

[4:12]Lily King: Thank you. Thank you so, so, so, so much. You're welcome. It's really terrifying to hear the book.

[4:19]Zibby Owens: Tell listeners what your book is about, please. Well,

[4:23]Lily King: it it's really about a young woman in college who goes on a bad date with a smart guy and puts in motion, you know, a series of events that we follow intermittently through about thirty years. And it is a big love story that does not follow the normal trajectory of a love story. And there are several loves kind of worked into it. And the nature of love, I think, in the book changes as time passes. And I do think the book is a lot about time and and about the impact of these very early relationships, be it friendships or or loves or even relationships with books that that that has a part in it too. Beautiful. So where did after Writers and Lovers, you had a collection of short stories come out. Was this were you working on this all along? Tell me what happened. It's never ever straightforward with me. I will I want it to be. But in fact, COVID hit, and I started working on a novel that was sort of a murder mystery, and I don't read murder mysteries, which was really red flag number one. I had a dead senator on the first page, and I had loved that first page. And then I wrote 90 more pages. And it it's kind of a town and gown situation on an island off the coast of Maine. And it was dealing with a lot of political stuff, kind of our political climate at the time and COVID and how that was playing out. And I felt like it was, you know, so important and impactful. And I it just fizzled after 90 pages. And right right about the time when I would be sitting in my little chair over there and trying to figure out the plot of this novel, you know, I had had all the characters and I had all the emotions. I just really couldn't work it all out in terms of just the murder mystery plot. And Anne Patchett sent me her book in manuscript form, Tom Lake. And I think she sent it to me because I have two girls and there are three girls in that novel. And she sort of, you know, wanted my impressions. And I read about six pages of that book, and I was like, she is having fun. She is having so much fun. I am having no fun in my chair. And I literally next day I started Heart the Lover. And and I did not I just had the day, the classroom, and the date. And I I didn't know how it was gonna relate to, writers and lovers.

[7:18]Zibby Owens: I didn't I didn't have that piece yet. Wow. And then what happened? It just unfolded as you wrote? And then,

[7:25]Lily King: you know, I just I it's so hard. It's such a hard book to talk about because really, there's so many secrets. Right? Yes. And and there are surprises for the reader. Yep. My editor likes to call them Easter eggs. Mhmm. I didn't mean for there to be surprises and secrets. It just kind of happened that way. So I realized it when I took a note about the future of the book, and I wrote down the name of the person that Jordan was married to. And I was like, Oh my God, really? I can't do that. That was my feeling is I can't do that. My editor Elizabeth won't like that. Nobody will like that. I don't like that. And yet it was there, and there was nothing I could do about it. And so I just had to kind of keep going and make it work somehow. Oh, my gosh. Well,

[8:11]Zibby Owens: as you say, there are many threads of love and friendship and all of that. And you have one roommate of Jordan's pass away early on. Can I read the section? It's it's, like, page 30, so I feel like I'm not giving too much. Yeah. Absolutely. And the date that she goes on is with this man, Sam, who you referenced. So a few weeks before I met Sam, a girl I knew had been killed off campus, stabbed to death, the school paper said in the only article they wrote about it. No one I knew knew her. Carson had gone home for the summer, and I'd cobbled together a few sublets before we moved into Pye Street together in September. In August, I ended up in Franklin Terrace for a few weeks, and so had she, this girl from Iran. She was going to be a sophomore and took summer classes during the day. I was working at high five at night, so we didn't see each other much. I only remember a few real conversations. She told me her father had worked for the shah, and they'd left Iran when the shah did, nine days after the start of the revolution when she was nine. She had the most delicate and pale skin I'd ever seen, as if a ray of sun had never touched it. She had a crush on the boy in the apartment next door. He was going to be a sophomore too. When she told me he'd asked her out, she'd left around the apartment like a deer. She was a virgin, she told me. She'd never had a boyfriend before. We lived together for three weeks. I don't remember saying goodbye. She wasn't there the day I moved out. I didn't see her on campus after that. A month later, she was dead. Just stop there. And then you go on to explain how and what happened. And this particular loss reverberates throughout the book in different ways. And how she did and didn't process this loss Mhmm. What it does when you have a loss that's from unconnected to other people. I feel like there's so much where we lose someone and we're part of a community and you can have that communal loss. But here, it was just someone she kind of knew off on the side, but it doesn't make it any less potent. So just tell me a little bit about that. It's interesting.

[10:03]Lily King: There are always things in my novels that that seem a little bit off to the side and like that did not have to be in there. And we could have cut that out. And it doesn't ever really, you know, it doesn't really kind of swerve back into the book in a big way but I love that you see it as reverberating through it just despite that. I guess I'm always interested in showing that that people can be having a good college experience, you know, or any kind of experience falling in love, falling in love with literature. It can be a good time in their life. And yet, you know, there there's just there there are always things that are happening that we're processing and we're always functioning on different levels with with different kind of sets of emotions and and disruptive, difficult, challenging things. And and I I really just wanted to capture the time in her life where where everything is kind of separated and compartmentalized, and she kinda has to go from from one world to another world to another world to another world and and she's juggling she's you know a young woman juggling all these emotions and a lot of kind of sexism under everything and you know, this murder obviously is, is tied to a sort of misogyny as well. And I guess it was just my way of of trying to to deepen her experience. And I will also say that this really is something that happened to me. You know, more or less, I mean, not exactly the same details, but and it did seem so just kind of inserted into my college experience in this strange way that I truly never processed. And then and then every now and then we'll just get a wave of kind of confusion about it and incredible sadness and also just what happened and where is her family and they never knew me or knew about me or anything and just an incredible disconnection, but also

[12:21]Zibby Owens: a very strong connection. I'm sorry to hear that happen to you. Thank you. Maybe this is a way of processing

[12:28]Lily King: years later. Yeah. I mean, much ends up so much that you have to process ends up in your books, you know. It just it just happens and you don't see it coming. Well, it's like

[12:39]Zibby Owens: inserting like a straw in your brain and it all just comes dribbling out onto the page. Like, who knows in what order to make sense of it all. As you say, there's a lot of talk about books in the book. As in your books in general. Normally, there's a lot of talk about philosophy and academia and intellectual rigor, discussions and all of that. How do you pick what to include? What do you want the reader to take away by their conversations?

[13:06]Lily King: It just sort of happens. Some of it is, you know, definitely stuff that I studied in college or that I discovered in college in some way or another. And and then some of it is stuff I stumble on while I'm writing the book and I'm like, oh, I could put that in. I could put that in, you know? And I just, sometimes it's a concept that I'm trying to get across. And so I have to figure out, okay, what can I use to get that concept across? But a lot, I was really surprised. UK publisher made a list of all of the literature that's referenced in the book and I would have said maybe 10 books and the list was probably 30 or 40. It was insane. Maybe even more. I just, I didn't, I didn't mean to do that. Again, just, you know, I often feel like it just, I am not in control. I am not choosing. I am not, something, something else is happening. It's like, you know, trying to control a dream, you know, and you, you, you really can't do it. Unless you get into that wonderful little half woken up phase where you can kind of manipulate it and sometimes I can get in there, but a lot of times it's like truly unconscious, and and I'm just along for the ride. I get it. All good. Yeah.

[14:28]Zibby Owens: A lot of scenes in the book take place sort of in the kitchen or in these intimate spaces and chopping something or making a chicken or what whatever. And if they're in these, like, quiet, private moments that you recreate as if we are there with you in the slight moments and in who turns and who puts what hand where and the littlest movements have, like, the biggest impacts. Talk about how you did that or why you do that or I know a lot of this is these are stupid questions because how do you know how you did it? But I'm just curious about it or just wanna say, like, I noticed.

[15:07]Lily King: I remember writing as particularly that chopping scene and, you know, there's this tension and they wanna communicate, but there's another person in the room that they're trying to communicate about. And so, he just taps his knife twice. And I remember thinking no one is gonna understand this. No one is gonna care and it's just so silly and so granular and micro, why would this be in here? And yet I just, I couldn't figure out another way to do it. And I really feel like, I do feel like that's the way I live. It's the way I see the little things are really important to me. And I mean, to turn this too much into a little sob story but my father was a terrible alcoholic and when you have a parent who's an alcoholic you have to pay such close attention. You know you have to know exactly when is the tipping point. When do you have to get out of the room you know like what gesture, what shape of the lips, know what tone of voice, what shake of the head or even like my dad used to sweat when he'd get to a certain you know number of martinis and so you have to notice all of that for self protection. So I think and then, and then there was my mom who was so unhappy in that marriage and, you know, a lot of anger. So you had to kind of navigate that too. And so I think that's where that hyper maybe sensitivity comes from or the why those things are so important to me in writing.

[16:55]Zibby Owens: Well, thank you for sharing that. So how, aside from hypervigilance, how did you find a way to process that? How did you at what point in your life did you, like, dive into it and try to make peace? Did you? Like, where are you on the whole spectrum of it? Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. In addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibby for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibby.

[20:24]Lily King: Gosh. It's such a lifelong process. I mean, took me so long. My my best friend in high school and I both had alcoholic fathers. We never spoke of it. I can't understand why. I but it took me so long. It's it's not like I was thinking this is a secret. This is something I have. I just, like it like it was that buried and that I mean, knew it, but I just didn't talk about it even to my best friend. And she didn't talk to me about her father who apparently would just was a binge drinker and he would disappear for days at a time. And I had no idea. Thought she had an incredibly happy family. I her parents. I was over there all the time. Anyway, I think, you know, I would, you know, every now and then I would try to see a therapist in my adult years and then, and I, you know, for a little bit and it would be kind of a therapist who didn't charge very much money because I had no money or it would be, you know, couple of things free on my insurance insurance. And and then when I had kids, that's really that was when I was like, I have to deal with this. I I am putting so much pressure on myself to be the perfect parent. And I also want this writing career. And it was a terrible tension and I couldn't figure it out. And I finally heard about some friend who had a therapist who she loved. And I went to see her and, oh my God, she helped me so much. Just a few years. And she just really, really, really helped me with my, my anger and my, my sadness underneath the anger and and and the way I kind of made my mother perfect and my father evil and that I kind of had to come, you know, they both had to come together a little bit into a more realistic picture. And it really helped my writing. I mean, I was really able to write then and slowly, I think Father of the Rain, my third book came out of writing an autobiographical kind of sketch for her. She asked me to write like 10 pages or something about my upbringing. And really that once I started that, I started writing that. I wrote that book pretty soon after that, and that was hugely cathartic. I mean, it just was, it just kind of put it all to rest. I was so much better after that. Also, this therapist, my parents were still alive and my, my dad was very, very difficult. And I had these young kids and I didn't really want to expose them to him and his stuff. And yet I felt guilty about it. And I felt guilty about not going up and visiting him and bringing them. My therapist was like, do you want to go or do you not want to go? And I was like, I don't want to go. She's like, so don't go. It was, I was like, really? I can do that. I didn't see my father for five years. It was the best thing I ever did. It really was. I mean, it just, it just freed me like, and so when I did see him again, I wanted to see him. And that was a huge change for me. And so I really, you know, had to work on this authentic behavior, doing, doing things from the heart. And I had not done that because I was always trying to just keep everybody not mad at me. You know, that was my whole thing.

[23:48]Zibby Owens: So sorry. Was kind of a long winded answer. No. I loved it. No. I thank you. I like hearing the backstory because when you create something, obviously it has to do with all the experiences that you've had in some way, right? It all gets mixed up there. So having that context I think is adds an even bigger meaning to the book and helps understand a lot of the pieces even. Mhmm. Mhmm. How did your siblings

[24:16]Lily King: deal with the situation in the same way? Or when you were So differently. Well, they are eight and a half and seven and a half years older than me. And they had a very different experience of childhood because my parents were together there, you know, until they were 18 or 19. And, my mom left my dad when I was 11. So, you know I went back and forth and in a way I feel like they got the very unhappy mother and I got after age 11 just this mother. I have actually I have a picture of her over here where she's just completely liberated, you know? And so she's having her kind of second youth and lots of love affairs, and she's just free in herself. And I got all of that. And they didn't. I mean, they got it, you know, they were in their twenties, but it wasn't quite the same. But my mother protected them from my dad's drinking. And she she also really controlled my dad's drinking. He didn't wanna lose her, and he was on much better behavior. But when she left him, he married somebody else who was also an alcoholic and things were went completely off the rails. So I had to deal with that every weekend. And that was bad. That was bad. But I had three step brothers and sisters, and I was really close with them, and that helped. And, I'm trying to figure out what the original question was. No. I had I had just asked how your siblings handled Oh, yeah. Yeah. Handled it. Yeah. And so they kind of pull they were mostly out of the house. And they went to boarding school, and I didn't. And so they got out pretty early. But I think I think it's had a huge impact on them, but in a different way, I would say. I would say in general harder for them than me. Wow. Well,

[26:13]Zibby Owens: when you have the space to write and the time and you how do you get into the headspace where you can just dive into fiction and your characters when you have the stress of your life and your own girls and all the things that are happening and illness and the world and all of that, and yet we have a a relatively, you know, not simple sounds bad, but, like, a a a slice of life story. Right? Like, a a slice of someone's life, this little thing in the context of, like, the massive world. So how do you quiet all the other noise and just go right there? Well,

[26:48]Lily King: I really do think a room of one's own is really important. You have to have a space. Like, I shut this door. I'm in my study. It's my it's at the top of the house, so it's hard for people to get to. They leave me alone. That is really important for me. I mean, did work at a cafe this morning. And so sometimes I have to get out of the house. But the kind of the physical stuff, just separation. Don't try to be Jane Austen, you know, writing on your little pad, like, you know, in between visiting guests in the living room. That's just that that that's a feat that only only she could really achieve. And I find you have to force it. I mean most days you have to force yourself to do it. It doesn't come naturally. I'm really not a writer who's like oh I can't wait to start writing today you know. I have to drag my feet and make myself do it and sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. I really try not to get emotionally invested in whether the day went well or not. I understand it's a long game and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But there are those times I had one yesterday. I had like a kind of a serious cardiology appointment yesterday at eleven, I'm sorry, at 01:10. And I was, I really wanted to get there very early. I'm usually kind of a late person that I really, really, really is an important appointment. And I started working on this, this revision of an essay and I just, I just totally lost track of time. And I never, all morning I was like, okay, okay. I was looking at my watch and then just I had this fifteen minute period where I was just gone. And that is so beautiful. I just love those moments. And I got to the appointment with one minute, know, I was I was on time. I was early by one minute, But I looked at my watch and I was like, what just happened? Like, it's just like, boo, disappeared. I really couldn't account for it. And I love that. And I just think that is how I cope. You know, that is how I cope with everything, everything in my life. I wrote this book through some difficult years, which you know about because we've been in touch and, you know, my kids were not well and I never thought that I would finish this book. And I mean, it was so hard. And yet at the same time, feel like it saved me, you know. It got me it got me through. Yeah. I I had a place to go. I had a place where I could control the variables even though I say I don't control them, you know, it's mine, you know, like, I don't know. It just it's doesn't depend on fate and this the weird quirks of, you know, what the universe wants to send you, you know, it's just just my little world. And I think I really need that. It's beautiful.

[29:35]Zibby Owens: It's so beautiful. And, Lily, it's so good. I mean, it is so good. Thank you. Maybe the hard times just added even more real emotion to it or something because it it is just oozing with with the stuff of life that we all can eat and relate to. And, Anyway, congratulations. I really loved it. Thank It's so good. Thank you. No, thank you so much. Okay. Well, that's it for today. That's it. It's already half an hour. I know it's so fast. But, yeah, congrats. And I really wanted to choose this as my book club, but you would have to come to the book club. So it's up to you if you it sounds like your your schedule is packed, but just I'll recommend it to everybody far and wide. Oh, well,

[30:21]Lily King: you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it so much. Okay.

[30:25]Zibby Owens: Alright. Bye, Lily. Thank you. Bye. Bye, sweetie. Thank you. Take really good care. Okay. Thank you. Have a great rest of the summer. You too. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.