Rachel Caplin, THE SPOON AND THE SEA: A Novel

[0:49]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. Rachel Kaplan is the author of The Spoon and the Sea, a best selling historical novel and Vogtle Literary Award finalist. She is originally from Australia and moved to Israel in 2015 where she currently balances her writing with a career in the tech center, the tech sector, and a busy family life with her husband and their three young daughters. Hi, Rachel. Thanks so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about the spoon and the sea. Congratulations.

[2:00]Rachel Caplin: Thank you so much for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure.

[2:03]Zibby Owens: And are you in Australia? Where are you today? In Israel. In Israel. Amazing. I've been living here for almost ten years now. Oh my gosh. Amazing. And I will I will cut that part out. Let me just start again. But you're originally Australian. Right? I am. And the accent confuses everyone. So feel free to keep it in. Okay. Fine. Okay. Rachel, The Spoon and the Sea. Tell listeners about your book. Sure. The Spoon and the Sea is a historical fiction

[2:29]Rachel Caplin: novel that centers around Ashi. He's a grown man, but as a young child, he was basically left to be raised by his Arab father on the island of Zanzibar where he was born. After his Jewish mother, Rose, left him to go back to her hometown in England. And the story takes place in Jerusalem. Rose is in her final days growing old in the grips of dementia. And Rose and Ashi are trying to bridge this gap, to empty that sea between them, to reconcile all of the decisions and all of the events in history that took them apart over so many years and so many places. And that's what the book's about. Amazing. So there's a true inspired by thread. Talk about that. Very much. There's a story, I feel like every family has some story in their archive that everyone says someone one day needs to write that into a book. And I have one of those that very much the arc of the story from taking place in England and this sort of forbidden love between a young Jewish girl and a young Arab Muslim man takes place and coming to British Mandate Palestine, moving to Zanzibar, having a child, all of the bare bones of the book are true. And basically in 2018, when my grandma passed away, the story isn't about her, but I was overcome with grief. She was one of the great loves of my life. I'm so sorry. And I was honestly in an almost unhealthy way trying to keep her alive. And my husband said, why don't you write? Now I don't have any training or anything, so I don't think he meant a book, but I think he just maybe meant like on my phone, just like take your thoughts and write them there. And I started thinking, what if I take my grandma and her character and the way she dressed, the way she spoke, and I put like almost layered it on top of this true story from this family archive that I have, and let's see what happens. And I was overcome by the creativity of the project. It took about a year and a half to write. No one was ever meant to see it. And here we are.

[4:31]Zibby Owens: And how did it help with your grief?

[4:33]Rachel Caplin: A lot. It helped me to let her go in an interesting way because at certain points in writing the story, the character Rose came to junctions that my grandma would have never made that choice. She would have never done that. So at a point where I had to choose between the character and what I knew the arc of the story had to follow, I was either, well, either I have to change the arc of the story or I need to let go of this character being her and help me to let her go and to accept that writing this character wasn't going to keep her alive in some weird way. So it helped me to create a character that has bits of her, but to accept that she's no longer here. And it was my

[5:13]Zibby Owens: tribute to her. So tell me more about your relationship with Rose, the grandmother.

[5:18]Rachel Caplin: So I actually didn't get to meet the real character, which I think helped because I think that to be put between my grandma who I knew very well and the real character that Rose is based on who I didn't get to meet, it would have felt like I had to try stay true to both. This way I only had one person that I had to really think about. Got it. And that was where the creative process came in. And that's where I say always, it's inspired by true events, but there's in any work of fiction, which at the end of the day it is, you have to take some license and try to imagine what they were thinking, what they were feeling.

[5:53]Zibby Owens: And that's how it came about. I always thought it would be really interesting to try to do sort of I think it's called auto fiction where you, like, write, you fill in the dialogue and the settings and, like, write how my parents met, you know, as a short story or something like that. When you know the the bones, like, as you're saying, but you have to fill in the rest, like, so interesting. I tend to think that the real stories of our own lives or people around us are the most fascinating. Like I find it quite remarkable how often people

[6:20]Rachel Caplin: completely fabricate stories when there's so much content that's interesting to read and to write around us. I mean, even our everyday lives, I think are filled. I mean, I know, especially over the last two years, I feel like, you know, there are gonna be so many books filled with our experiences.

[6:36]Zibby Owens: So you've lived in Israel for ten years. Talk a little bit about being Australian, moving to Israel. Why did you make that choice? Like, what is the rest of your life in since you weren't an author all the time? You know, explain that.

[6:53]Rachel Caplin: Sure. So I grew up in Perth, which is we say it's the most isolated Jewish community in the world. I've never fact checked if that's true, but it's definitely up there. Okay. It's at the end of the year. I'll take your word Exactly. For And I grew up there and I had never left Australia till I was 15. And then I came on a family trip to Israel. And I just felt something that a lot of people feel when they come here that's this completely, almost irrational indescribable feeling of belonging. And I think coming from such a small and isolated Jewish community, was overcome by how many Jewish people were here. It was mind blowing to me. And I made the decision basically there and then that I would move here one day, which I did. So just after I turned 24, I was in the middle of my master's and I made Aliyah and moved to Israel. And I was in the middle of my degree in political economics, nothing to do with anything of what I do today. Today, I work very much deep in the high-tech scene here, which as you probably know, is a really like thriving and exciting place to be. And I had never written anything before this book. I always loved words. I love to read, but I never thought that I would be an author. But it's interesting because the experience since the book has come out, everyone in Israel who's known me in sort of this last ten years, this chapter is like, wow, you can write. And everyone in Australia who knew me growing up says, finally you put out a book. There's this part of me that feels like I've sort of brought some part of myself that maybe in the journey here, didn't get to really bring to the fore until now. And it's a new part of my life that I love. I really do. Amazing.

[8:32]Zibby Owens: So we were both sort of mentioned in this article that came out recently. Why don't you tell listeners your story?

[8:40]Rachel Caplin: Sure. So basically I wrote this manuscript and I remember the day I finished it, I sat on the couch and I said to my husband, I finished the book. And he said, who are you gonna show it to? And I said, no one. I said, it's not a real book. It's just a Google doc that I wrote. And he said, you really encouraged me. So I shared it with a couple of friends and the feedback was far beyond more than what I would have ever expected. And someone convinced me to submit it for an award. And this is how much I don't come from the industry. I was like, well, the Israeli market's very small. I'll try the Australian market. So I Googled like Book Award Australia. And I happened to submit to the Vogtle, which I didn't know was like the most prestigious award there. And then I've completely forgot about it. I was in the top three. So I basically was in the newspaper based on that. That's how my extended family found out that I wrote this book. And then from that, I was approached by a number of different agencies. And from there I signed with an agency and we began, you know, all the editorial work and the process that comes with that, which I really enjoyed. And then the plan was to begin shopping the book around at the Frankfurt Book Fair, which was 10/17/2023. And to be an Israeli author on 10/17/2023, a debut author with no anything. But I'll tell you for about a year or so, I presumed that all the strange responses we were getting were, I was like, we must improve the product. That was really the mindset I was in. Let's improve the opening chapters. Let's work on how we're pitching it. Like I really didn't jump to any conclusion about anything. And I remember it so clearly. I got off a call with my agent and I was particularly frustrated because I could feel that something wasn't adding up. And I went onto Instagram and Noah Tishpi was interviewing you and you were talking about what was happening in the book industry. And it was a very short video, maybe a minute. And if it put into words, what I was feeling was happening to me. And I really didn't jump to that conclusion for a long time. And I remember I sent it to everyone like, this is what's happening to me. Oh my God. And I then spoke to my agent about it. And at first they really tried to deny it. And then I said, let me ask you point blank. If today I submitted the same manuscript to the same award, would I be published in the newspaper? And they said, absolutely not. Oh my gosh. So I said, well, there you go. I was under contract though, so there was very little that I could do. And then in June, there was the twelve days of war with Iran, which were twelve days that I think we're still reeling from. Were really indescribable. I've got three young kids under the age of six. So it was just a complete, I mean, we can talk about that. It's a whole, anyway, I was in the middle of that really indescribable event, scary time. And the agency posted on social media, something that vilified Israel in the context of this war with Iran. And I wrote and I said, I want to cancel the contract. I said like, this is one step too far. And I said, I'm going to be Israeli about this. And just because I can't do this the easy or the traditional way, I'll find a different way. And so the book came out, published it on Amazon in July. I have had the most amazing experience connecting with the Jewish author community in The US, some of the most kind and generous and helpful people who I haven't even got to meet in person. And so when the opportunity to participate in this article came out to tell the story from the debut Israeli author perspective, and also to really say thank you to the support of these authors in The US, because I know that it puts a risk on their careers every single time. You take that risk on your career every single time. So for anyone to put their name on an Israeli author, I know what that means. And it's been truly heartwarming.

[12:43]Zibby Owens: Oh, that's amazing. That like gave me such goosebumps that you put on Instagram and that clip of like me downstairs with Noah was so obvious and that it had an impact in your life. Like, that's just I was here on the couch and I I think I literally gasped. I was like,

[12:58]Rachel Caplin: oh, this seems so obvious now. But, yeah, my my first response was was not to think that. I mean, you know, I must have to improve it somehow and that's what I'll keep doing and we'll keep fixing it. So how has your book been received in Israel? In Israel. So it's not in Hebrew yet. Everyone here wants to know when it's going to be available in Hebrew, will happen at some point. The best part for me was at first, like when I first came out, most of the sales were either in Israel or in Australia where my friends and family are. And like 82% of the sales are now in The US, which to me is the best because I'm seeing reviews from people I have no idea who they are, which is I think once you pass that friends and family, it's really, really exciting. So here, I mean, I actually gave my first talk at a book club on Thursday night. And, you know, I'm there with a group of women, all of whom have moved to Israel from Australia, The US, Canada, The UK, Ireland over the years, and to sit around and talk about this book and how it intersects with just how diverse and how rich the culture is here. And I'm a big believer that there need to be more books that show just how amazing this country is, how many stories are hidden in the fabric of society here. I think a lot of the times when we think about changing the public perception, we focus very much on advocacy and political commentary, and there's a place for that, but books can change hearts and minds over years. And I think there needs to be more of it in English for non Israeli speakers. So I'm a huge advocate for anyone who's working on that. And I finished writing my second book in June, which I hope to put out eventually. I think it's super important. Wait, tell me about your next book. So when I finished the first book, a few people said, are you going to write another book? And I said, well, I only wrote this one because I was so sad. So I hope to never write another book. And then October 7 happened and I had the same feeling like I needed to write to process my feelings. So it's not a book that's a play by play of October 7 events. It does connect, but it's more the story that I felt like I needed to say to everyone about the events, which is, I was very overcome by the fact that people kept referring to it as an unprecedented event. And I kept saying, this is the most unprecedented event in history. This has happened again and again and again. And that was what I really wanted to come and say, like, we need to look at this more broadly. So it's another

[15:35]Zibby Owens: historical fiction dual timeline novel that seems to be my happy place about that. Wow. Okay. Now let's go back to you being a mom through the terrifying twelve year war and everything that's really happened. I mean, it's enough, you know, the fear you know, I have four kids. I'm here in New York. I still feel fear. And people are like, but the people in Israel, they're not even afraid. You know, there was some day that I was, like, so terrified. And everyone's like, PS, everyone in Tel Aviv is, like, out getting coffee. Like, can you just stop? And I was like, oh, okay.

[16:08]Rachel Caplin: I think we deal with different fears. I think that the fear of being Jewish outside of Israel is very real. It's different. Like the fear is of something different than what we fear here. The twelve days with Iran, for example, were, I mean, we're very lucky because we have a bomb shelter in our apartment, which is our room. So a lot of the times when things happen overnight, we're able to just put the kids into bed in our bed and they think it's a bit weird, but it's fun. And we closed the door and that's it. So we were saved a lot of having to explain just because the ages, like my oldest kid and she isn't even five, sorry, she's now five. Like, so we don't need to explain too much. My second daughter loves elephants. They're her favorite animal. And the sound on the app when a missile is coming sounds like an elephant. So she loves the sirens because she thinks there are elephants outside. And so for twelve days we were in this cycle where she was saying, why are there so many elephants outside? Why can't I go see them? Children in many ways help to deal with it because you have to be fine for them. You can't completely collapse into a state of panic because you have to be fine for them. But then the whiplash you feel afterwards, that's what I experienced the most. Like during the twelve days I was able, I was okay because I had to be, you're a mom, you have to be okay. And then afterwards it was sort of, what did we just live through? How are we going to work and going to meetings? And you would sit for coffee with a friend and you find you're both just sort of zoning out and be like, did that really happen? So I think Israelis are extremely resilient. I actually think that sometimes we overplay the narrative to the point that it's okay to not be okay when things are crazy and terrifying. Sometimes there's a bit too much of that, I think. And I think now we're seeing a lot of the effects, we're seeing the effects of mental health over the long term. Like this has been the longest war in our history and we're seeing now that there are effects. And I think that Israel as a country, I think we're going to learn a lot by how to, how to balance this narrative of resilience with providing the support that people need when something is truly terrifying and being okay, but needing to be able to talk about it as well. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

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[20:56]Rachel Caplin: I'll say two things, which almost contradict each other. Great. I love that. Love love that. The first thing is that I think Israel's in a really tough spot where simultaneously for the last two years, have been forced to be both very fearsome to our neighbors and our enemies. And we needed to have a position of strength in order to do the things geopolitically that we've needed to do. And at the same time, trying to garner the sympathy of the world. And those are diametrically opposed to be both the strong and the weak at the same time. And I think that at the end of the day, better, for worse, that's a different discussion. We prioritized the former, but seeing how Israel is perceived outside the world, like, you know, that's a real hit and it's going to take years to recover from that. And on that, I'll share the story of a friend. He on October 9 called a friend and said, how can I help? Like, what can I do? And this friend said, go to the Prime Minister's Office to the Spokesperson's Unit and you can help that. So he said, great. So he turned up and he said, there was nothing. There was no one. No one. He was paired with someone who wasn't, you're now the official spokesperson. And he said, okay, we just booked a call with CNN. Where do I write it down? There was no way. The infrastructure for this needs to take place over years and it needs to also happen when we're not in war. And my big fear is that now that hopefully with this war ending, that again, we're gonna forget how important this is not only to rehabilitate the damage of what's been done, but it's a constant effort that needs to happen to build the perception and the understanding of what our side of the story is. And it's not our strong point at all. There are some people like Noah doing incredible work, but from an infrastructure perspective, there's a lot lacking and it's not a strong point. We're good at lots of things. That's just not been something that we've invested in long term in my humble opinion.

[23:03]Zibby Owens: Well, thank you for that. I think a lot of people wonder what people over there are thinking right now. And so I really appreciate the candor. Even though we're talking about your novel, which doesn't No. It's all connected. It's all connected. You know, it's funny too because in your book, you know, Palestine is one of the first places, but I feel like Palestine also has become Is a word that's become a Listen,

[23:25]Rachel Caplin: a lot of the editorial process with the agency from October 7 onwards, I was I mean, the first thing was they said, can we tell people you're an Australian author? I said, well, it's going become fairly obvious quickly that I don't live there. So anyone who doesn't want to work with me, that's not going to work. And also words like using the words like British mandate, Palestine, Zionism, should we have an Arab character here and there? And a lot of changes that I felt like we're trying. And I said, like, this book is not about the Israel Palestinian conflict. It's not about that at all. I don't want to try to make it about that. That's the last thing that I wanna do. If anything, I feel this book is about how love can transcend everything and can build bridges. If anything, that's what the book talks about. So I think that referring to British Mandate Palestine as it was in 1947 when the stories take place and to give a bit of a snapshot about just a glimpse into the remarkable things that were happening here. I didn't want to gloss over those things. I love that. Really, really impressive.

[24:34]Zibby Owens: Okay. Where are you headed? You have this other book that you are also going to find a home for and get out there and use all your hustle and all of the good things. Where do you like, where do you want your life to go? I know it's sort of a big question, but you're young and you've got small kids.

[24:54]Rachel Caplin: Book and the book coming out and like I mentioned, sort of the almost the return to the roots that I feel like I had so many years ago has brought me in many ways to think about, okay, how does this in any way adjust how I spend my time? And writing books, I think will now always be something that I'm doing. I'm actually curious in your opinion. I think it's too soon for October 7 related fiction. I think now we're seeing, you know, memoir coming out and, you know, sort of from those who were hostages or survivors or families of. So that's part of why I'm sort of holding back on it for now. But I do think in general, looking forward, writing books will always be part of it. And what I'm working on in a sort of ad hoc way now is how can I help to bridge the narratives between what October 7 means to Jews in Israel and what it means to Jews outside? And I think as an immigrant, I have that unique perspective where speaking every day to Jews outside Israel and understanding that October 7 in many ways can also mean October 8 and everything that happens afterwards. And when you talk about October 7 in Israel, it's very much, it's different experience, but if want we to look at the whole of the Jewish people and what does this event mean for us and how do stories in the many forms that they'll take. So I'm working on some interesting ways, just the ways that I can help to connect between different people and organisations and entities from governments and nonprofits publishing to try and make sure that it's cohesive, to make sure that we don't end up with two different narratives about what October 7 means. And how do we take this storytelling that as a Jewish culture, are so good at. And how do we try to use that to make an impression on hearts and minds even after this war is over in the years to come? And equally as important, Jewish people who have found themselves looking at Israel more over the last two years, how do we keep those eyes on Israel? Don't look away. There's so much here to see. Like, how do we keep that bridge very much alive? That's how I see the book and the writing and the stories part of my life. And that will somehow fit in with the, you know, the full time tech job and the kids and the crazy life that Israel has in and of itself. Amazing.

[27:13]Zibby Owens: Awesome. My pet mission, as you try to do your two missions, is find some way to minimize infighting among Jewish people.

[27:25]Rachel Caplin: There's so much. We can't afford it. One of the the messages of my second book is that is so much what led to what enabled October 7 to happen. Can't afford it. Can't afford it. In Israel, it was so visceral and was violent in those days. I actually wrote an essay for the On Being Jewish Now that was published a couple of weeks ago, which was a letter to myself, Yom Kippur, just before. I read that. Yeah. I everything.

[27:55]Zibby Owens: You read everything.

[27:57]Rachel Caplin: And I just remember seeing down that day the violence between Jews on Yom Kippur in Israel. And I thought like, this is the lowest of the low. This is rock bottom that we've hit. And And we didn't even know what was about to hit afterwards. I so agree with you that we can't afford it. We can't afford it in Israel. We can't afford it outside. And we can't afford also to have a fragmentation between Israel and Jewish people outside Israel. We are so outnumbered by everyone and we need to be cohesive even when we don't agree. And I think that there's often a confusion between unity and uniformity. And that's

[28:35]Zibby Owens: so not the same thing. And Israel is based on that. Israel is a whole melting pot of everyone and everything. Well, a mom, I think of it as coming from the top too. Right? Like, if I I I am the most I mean, I like to think I am the most influential in, like, getting my kids to stop fighting with each other. Right? They love each other, but they're gonna fight because kids are gonna fight. But if left unchecked, who knows? No. I think I I agree. You can't look at the

[29:02]Rachel Caplin: leadership and seeing leadership fighting and expect that somehow that's not gonna trickle down. But at the same time, I think in the last few years, we've seen we've seen the power of of the people. And I think from October 7, the day itself, you know, all the institutions failed. Yes. We need to make some changes systemically.

[29:19]Zibby Owens: Great. I think we've got lots more to talk about and to do and, you know, any way that I can help from here and Same here. Love to work on that together. Thank you so much, Beth. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you and congratulations on your book. Okay. Thanks. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books!