Nim Shapira, TORN: The Israel–Palestine Poster War on New York City Streets

[1:33]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. We have a special episode today because I did not host this. I was supposed to host this conversation, which was a talkback with Nim Shapira after the screening of his documentary Torn. We hosted an On Being Jewish Now event in New York City and screened the movie and then had a talkback. I unfortunately was totally sick in bed right after the death of my stepfather, and I just my body shut down, and I had a anyway, doesn't matter. I couldn't do it. So Alex Strauss, who's one of the contributors to On Being Jewish Now, the anthology, and Stacy Eagle, I knew who was another contributor. Both of them are authors in their own right. I panicked and asked the two of them, could they host the whole event and interview Nim and also Mandana Dayani, which will be a different episode, and they said yes. And so what follows is a conversation, a talk back with Nim Shapiro about his movie Torn with Alex Strauss. Enjoy. Hi, everybody. I'm Alex Strauss filling in for Zibby Owens, and we've just watched Torn, which was just a dramatic, extraordinary account of what transpired since October 7 and how New Yorkers handled things and the ripple effect that it had both here in New York and clearly around the world. And I'm here with the director and producer, Nim Shapira. Did I do that right? Yes. I was just saying it's it's after watching this extraordinary documentary was I mean, there were almost no words, but to have this conversation, I I feel so privileged to experience this with you and and with all of you. And I I guess first, if you would introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about

[4:06]Nim Shapira: how you got started and how this came to be. So I'm an Israeli American. I moved here thirteen years ago, so I'm a New Yorker. I know the streets of New York, I think, better than the streets of Tel Aviv. And, I have been, you know, I have been in the advertising world and in the film world for for twenty years, I would say. And, when October 7 happened, I, was in Israel right from the start. Actually, not right from the start because the first few hours, we all thought it's just rockets, and then the rumors started. But very soon after, I started volunteering with the hostage family film, which wasn't titled that way. It was just like groups of people that have lost connection with their loved ones. They didn't know where they are. So and I knew friends who lost their families. So I was, can I help you maybe make a video for your loved one or let the world know that they've gone missing? And again, like fast forwarding, like I realized that we're in this echo chamber. We are all so siloed. And I told myself that I continued volunteering with like different studios that did pro bono work. But I wanted to do something as a New Yorker that would penetrate the bubbles of people on the other side. I wanted to to make a film that is an invitation for a conversation and mostly a film that asks more questions than it gives answers. And, three questions that I led, you know, sitting with my editor in the editing room was, why is empathy, limited resource? Can we have dehumanization? Can we have disagreements without dehumanizations? And, last and third question is, can multiple things be true at the same time? So these are the questions that led me. And, it was important for me to finalize the film by the first anniversary of October 7. So ever since I've traveled with the film all over The States, and this is the first screening that I'm holding with the end title end titles that should be updated because the live hostages are out.

[6:31]Zibby Owens: Amen. When you look at what has transpired, was there also an inciting incident for you to say, I have to start documenting this? Because I think when you see things on Instagram or InstaLie, as I like to call it, you're seeing a moment and a snippet. But I think for so many of us, this was the first time we saw it all threaded together and the narrative and the story and what really transpired rather than a snippet. So, was there an inciting incident that said, I need to start documenting this and I need to have a whole story so that there is something to really present to the world that says, look what happened? There were two parallel

[7:18]Nim Shapira: incidents or scenarios that happened. And, you know, I feel like everyone of us, you know, like I always say, it's important for me to say that I'm not the the victim. Like there are people that lost their lives or they're host they're they have hostages in Gaza. But I think all of our mental health has declined as we are on the kind of like, outer circles of what is happening. And for me, two things happen. One is that, you know, seeing the posters go up. I'm in Tel Aviv. October 7 happens, and then October 9, I think the posters went up. And, it was kind of like a silver lining. Like, my city cares. And then very soon after, people started tearing down the posters, and I recognized every street corner. I'm like, this is, where I get my coffee, and this is where I go to work. And so that was kind of like a very visceral memory of me sitting in Tel Aviv. And I I I couldn't even under, like, imagine that people are ripping down the posters. That was more, I would say, less personal. The more personal thing was I'm in this Venn diagram of being an artist, a vegan, and gay.

[8:38]Zibby Owens: So, all of my To be ordered to fill. You know, that's All of my communities

[8:43]Nim Shapira: that I called friends, you know, started saying that, you know, not all of the communities, but people that I personally know, people that I had drinks with, coffee with, worked with. They said that the hostages are AI, that the hostages are actors. They said that the Israelis deserved it. And these are people that I considered on the front line of empathy. So I think and these are and I also show it in the the people that ripped down the posters, you know, I can't say that this was only young people or old people, only people from this ethnic background. Like, it's it's everyone. Everyone is staring down the posters. So same for my friends. Like, I saw I I had friends that were Lebanese and Moroccan and Iranian, but I also had friends from Belarusia and Sweden and Italy and friends from all over The United States. And, you know, those conversations or DMs were on the first week of October 7, and I was shocked that, this is what they they say or write to me. Someone like, I was also under rockets while they were texting me from their New York homes. So I think a lot of us in the Jewish community and the Israeli community that lives in New York have lost a lot of, of our social connections and, reexamined our relationships. And the film, you know, a lot of people talk about the film being about the The Middle East. The film is about America. The film is about not only the posters were torn, but the social fabric of the city was torn as well. I think what's so difficult to understand

[10:32]Zibby Owens: is for September 11, and I was here as well, and I'm a New Yorker born and raised, you would never tear down a photo of someone who died in September 11 or when we were looking for people we couldn't find. And I I just don't understand what would cause people to tear down a photo of a baby that was stolen and women who were raped and horrible things and and these peep these poor people who were kidnapped. I I it is hard for me to get to that next level. And we escalated so quickly. What do you think that was from?

[11:12]Nim Shapira: I think that, in the film, I specifically didn't wanna ask the the interviewees that I have, why are there why are those people ripping down the posters? I really honestly wanted to have a conversation with the poster reapers and understand their POV because I believe that, you know, there are we say like, two Jews, three opinions. So, like, so when we were talking to someone on the other side, like, we're not gonna agree on anything or at least on most of the things, but we at least have to hear each other out or or accept that there is a different narrative and then try and bridge the the divide. At least that's what I thought. I tried to talk to a lot of people that were doxxed and fired. I had their details because it was on online. But they said that they already said everything they have to say or that or they just didn't respond. And that is why I kind of like weaved throughout the film all of the reasons or excuses for why they are tearing down the posters. I want to give the poster reapers the benefit of the doubt to say that, and I and I really hope that you guys also accept that nothing or almost nothing in the world today or ever is black and white. There is a spectrum. So, yes, there are people that are anti semitics and they are ripping down the posters. But there are also on the other side, people that have only seen social media footage of what is happening in Gaza. And they are sure that these posters are evil. Right? I'm not saying that, you know, they are entitled to rip down the posters. Like, ripping down a poster is ugly. It's anti freedom of speech and it's anti American. But I have heard stories about people that ripped down the posters and then repented. There is a story about an Indian living in America. He was filmed by an Israeli and he told the Israeli, go back to your country. Right? They're both immigrants. And then, the Indian guy was, doxxed and fired, went back to India. When he came back, he really tried to find someone to talk to about what he did, and no one wanted to speak with him. So he went to rabbi to a rabbi. Her name is rabbi rabbi, Sarah Raines. She's from Temple Emmanuel. And she was very, you know, she didn't know what to do, but she was like, I I you know, that's her calling. Right? Like someone showed up on her door, on her doorstep. So she took him in and she gave him a list of books to read and a list of movies to watch. And not all of them are, you know, by Israeli or Jewish authors. And after he watched them and read the books, they had very difficult discussions. Then he started going to hostage vigils and he even put posters himself. And that Yom Kippur of last year, he wrote an apology letter to the Jewish community and she read it in temple. So, I wanna say that, yes, some of the poster ripples, we will never be able to talk to them and they think of so there's the BDS movement and there is a lot of And I think that boycott is doing exactly the opposite. Like, boycott is like, is is not advancing dialogue. We need more dialogue. We need to connect to people we disagree with and stop living in bubbles. So, I do not believe in boycotts. And having said that, some of the people that ripped down the posters, if I will approach them, they will not talk to me just because of where I'm from or because of my religion or because of what I represent. Having said that, like, these are not my target audience. I don't think I would be able to talk to them. I wanna talk to people that are the silent majority or I want to talk to people that, you know, maybe have second thoughts about what they did. So that's that's my audience.

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[18:31]Zibby Owens: When you started to, film everything, did you reach out to other people and ask for clips that they could share with you? Did you document all this yourself? How did this all get edited together, It if you

[18:46]Nim Shapira: was very hard to work on a film while the war is still going on and while the hostages are not out. I didn't have like an an ending. Because this really felt minute to minute. I mean, don't think any of us have ever

[18:58]Zibby Owens: had an opportunity to see really a sequential experience of what transpired. And I think that's one of the most powerful elements of this aside from obviously the sensitive material and being horrified by what went on, but we've not had that opportunity to have that narrative or story So, was it you doing all of the threading together? Did people send you clips? Did you videotape everything yourselves? Yeah. I so I chose to focus on the first three months of the war, winter twenty twenty three.

[19:35]Nim Shapira: I wanted to do it because I felt like I don't know how this war would end. I don't know what's gonna happen with the hostages. What I know is that these posters were not would not last, like the sun would breach them, the rain would wash them away, and, people will put stuff on top of them, but also people rip them down. So, I just wanted to document that horrible era for for us Jewish New Yorkers, and my film was always about Jewish Jewish grief. Like, when people commend me for making a neutral film, I say, it's it's nothing is neutral in this life. Like, I am a Jewish Israeli and I'm trying to, you know, zigzag between the narratives, but of course that it's from my perspective and I see myself in each one of my interviewees. So so I had that period of time and then I started looking for who I'm going to interview. And, each of the interviewees, I see myself in them. They are, you know, they I feel like they represent most of Jewish New Yorkers like Ashkenazi and Sephardic, young and old, religious and secular, liberal and conservative. And they honestly, you know, all of us had to do something when October 7 happened. This was kind of like my process in, like, asking answering some of the questions that I had. So I think the collecting all of the videos that people ripped down, that was just combing the Internet and going through hundreds and hundreds of videos and finding the ones that don't have minors in them, for example, or people understand that they are being filmed just for legal reasons. And then there was so much, you know, footage online and also in news editions. I took every news edition that I could find also to talk about how we are siloed and echo chambered. So I have Al Jazeera and Fox News and CNN and MSNBC and CBS. And, the last kind of, like, ingredient, which is the most important one was I interviewed dozens of of people and I ended up with these amazing interviewees because I felt like they are the heart of of the story. So each of them was filmed a few hours. And and, yeah, the editing, I think, was the most the hardest part just because, you know, I I the we made the editing while the encampments were happening. And I thought, should this be in the film? And I decided not because that's another film and it talks about other yeah. I I had I have to focus on one thing again because, it's not just about you know, I I I made the film as a tool to talk about the fact that we are so divided, but of course also to call for the urgent release of the hostages. And now that all the living hostages are out, we still have 19 of our brothers in Gaza. And, that's why if you ask me, we shouldn't stop wearing the the the pin or advocating for them. It's also part of the ceasefire deal and, Hamas is breaching, their side of the deal and they should release the the hostage bodies. The remains. The remains. But putting that aside for a second, it's a it's a film about, you know, you're you're you're you're seeing what's happening now with the elections in New York. Like, are more divided than ever. And, I just wanna say about the the upcoming elections that, I've seen more posters about Israel and and, and Gaza in the past two years then I've I've seen posters about who's gonna be the next male of, of New York. Same goes for yesterday's debate. The second or third question was about what's happening, between Israel and and the and the Palestinians. It wasn't a question about what's gonna be what's your take on education. Right? Or what's your take on, the the rats in the in the streets. So a whole different

[23:55]Zibby Owens: environment and everybody's priorities seem very skewed. So, it's so difficult. I feel like we're at war at so many different spots. Yeah. I'm wondering also, how did this experience change you? And what did you learn about both yourself and where we are in the world by doing this?

[24:17]Nim Shapira: So, there is the saying of, like, you can't go into the same river twice because you're not the same person and it's not the same river. And I feel like every time I watch the film, I am not the same person. Mhmm. The news change, but I I also changed. I will say that I started working on the film asking myself why are they ripping down the poster of Kefir Bibas, who is the symbol for the kidnapped posters. And I think that, you know, I would never understand why people rip down Phil's photo. Right. Or see in a nine month old baby the kind of like the image of the the Zionist entity. Like, if you see something so evil in a in a photo of a nine month old baby, your action shouldn't be remove it. Your action should see you'd be like, look inside of yourself and ask yourself why.

[25:19]Zibby Owens: But I will say that this Was that the most surprising element to you of of uncovering all this documentation? That even though they were children and babies, that there was this inhumane, almost sociopathic behavior to

[25:35]Nim Shapira: to rip them down and erase them. I think the most surprising element was the fact that, you know, when they tear down the posters, they are erasing our grief. They are taking away our grief, maybe because they don't want to acknowledge that the kidnapping of 251 humans that were from over 40 nationalities, Hindus and Buddhists and Christians and Muslims and Jews, was done by the so called Hamas resistance movement, which is of course a terror terrorist movement. So maybe taking down the posters, maybe the posters remind them that this act was done, and that's maybe why they're turning taking it down. But, you know, I chose to end the film with the fact that there are enough street lamps and walls on the city in New York. So we can, you know, if we can't have peace, at least we can acknowledge that there is enough walls that we can cover our grief with with the the posters of our of our loved ones. There are New Yorkers that have skin in the game. There are there's a huge Jewish community and there's also a very large Muslim community. And I'm not going to argue with Palestinian American that lost her family members in Gaza because of an Israeli airstrike, no matter if Hamas embeds themselves within the citizens or not. Like, the the bottom line is that her family Yes. Loss is loss. Loss is loss. But you asked me what surprised me the the most. What surprised me the most is the fact that people can't hold to thoughts and can't understand. And I'm showing it, you know, I'm trying as much as I can not to show that the vocal people on the other side can't hold two thoughts in their brain. And I think that's what hurt me the most. The fact that they cannot say, you know, there are daily rockets and missiles on Israelis throughout the past two years. There are, hostages that have that have been kidnapped and their only sin was being at the wrong place at the wrong time. There is, like, so many things that have happened. And I think that the that if they would acknowledge and I'm not saying there are no Palestinian voices that acknowledge this, but I would say that a lot of Palestinian voices do not acknowledge the Israeli suffering or what we are going through. And, you know, I showed Alana on the stage talking about how

[28:17]Zibby Owens: and she has the most lyric of scene in the game. Course. And I think part of what makes this film so humane and so thoughtful was really you and your desire to do that. I think that was certainly felt throughout watching this, that there were two sides and you were doing your best to try to understand everybody's story while still protecting, you know, how you feel and where you come We're shockingly out of time. I know twenty minutes went by very fast and I know so many of us are still digesting what we just saw. We can't thank you enough for being here and for making piece beautiful and it's hard to even use the word beautiful when you're looking at this, but this documentation that really will live forever and hopefully people will Thank get a better

[29:09]Nim Shapira: you so much. And, yeah, if you want to let your, friends and family know, the film is streaming on torn-film.com. And, yeah. We are trying to, win an Oscar with the best with the best documentary. Hope you do. It's a long way. Odds are against us, but, yeah, we'll we'll go as far as we can. We're here to support you, so thank you for being here. You. Thank you.

[29:38]Zibby Owens: Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.