Rebecca Stead, THE EXPERIMENT
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi, formerly momstone
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[0:45]Rebecca Stead is the author of The Experiment.
[0:47]She is a New York Times bestselling author, also, of When You Reach Me, Liar and Spy, First
[0:53]Light, Goodbye Stranger Bob, and most recently, the list of things that will not change.
[0:58]Her books have been awarded the Newberry Medal, The Boston Globe, Slash, Horn, Book
[1:02]Award for Fiction, and The Guardian Children's Fiction Prize.
[1:05]Rebecca lives in New York City, where she is always on the lookout for her next story
[1:09]idea.
[1:10]Welcome, Rebecca.
[1:11]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Butte to talk about all of your work, including
[1:15]The Experiment, and When You Leave Me, and whatever else we talk about, I don't know.
[1:22]We'll see.
[1:23]It is so great to be here.
[1:24]Thank you so much for having me on.
[1:26]Thank you.
[1:27]As I told you before, this is required reading from my kid's school, and I have four
[1:32]kids.
[1:33]So we've had a lot of people go through the books and everything, so this is particularly
[1:38]meaningful to me to talk to you.
[1:41]Tell listeners a little bit about you as an author, how you got started, your whole writing
[1:47]career, middle grade.
[1:48]Just give us a rundown.
[1:49]I'll give you the story.
[1:53]I grew up in New York City.
[1:55]I actually went to law school after college, and I was a lawyer for a while.
[2:02]I was a public defender for the most part.
[2:04]I worked in a few different offices, including a terrific one in the Bronx.
[2:09]And after my second son was born, so I have two sons, and my younger one who is now
[2:17]24, was born.
[2:19]I decided to leave the office in the Bronx when I was working, and maybe get, I don't
[2:24]know, like a different kind of non-profit law job.
[2:28]However, that whole time I had kind of had this back burner writing going on, I was going
[2:35]to workshops.
[2:36]I took a workshop at the 92nd Street, why I was doing a lot of reading.
[2:41]I wouldn't say I wrote a lot, but I definitely felt longing to be writing.
[2:49]And I didn't think very much about publication, to be honest.
[2:53]It was mostly kind of an urge that grew out of my reading and loving reading my whole
[3:01]life.
[3:02]So I actually never went back to being a lawyer.
[3:04]9-11 happened right in there in those first few months after my younger son was born,
[3:11]and so that, if you remember, we all remember that sort of felt like all the cards got
[3:16]thrown in the air, and lots of questions and thinking about life, and I started writing
[3:22]my first book for kids right then.
[3:25]And so I was older.
[3:28]I mean, I was, you know, this was my first attempt to sort of sit down and write on most
[3:33]days.
[3:34]I was in my mid-30s, and at one point when I had kind of a messy draft of my first book,
[3:42]I wrote to a woman named Wendy Lamb, who I met in one of those workshops that I took.
[3:49]We took a workshop at the 92nd Street Y together, and she helped me.
[3:55]She was working in the Children's Book Business at Random House, and she read it for me.
[4:01]She introduced me to other people writing, and it was really wonderful.
[4:06]I didn't know anybody else who was writing, and she introduced me to another writer.
[4:11]I had then I found an online community that led to a critique group, and it was just
[4:16]step by step.
[4:18]And yeah, so my first book was published six years after I left that job in the Bronx.
[4:27]So it was a six-year gap, six-year-os on my Social Security statement.
[4:33]It might be more than six, actually, probably more like seven or eight.
[4:39]But I've been, I'm not a fast writer, so there's always two or three years between books.
[4:44]So, but I have been publishing steadily since that first one, which is great and really
[4:49]lucky.
[4:50]That's amazing.
[4:51]I love that story.
[4:52]See, it all goes to show.
[4:54]You know, you go, you do the work, you sign up for the classes, you're nice to people,
[5:00]you say yes to meeting people, and then things happen.
[5:03]Yes, you have to be brave.
[5:06]And I am not famously brave, but when I found this critique group through this online
[5:12]online group, I actually flew to Vermont to spend the weekend with someone that I had
[5:18]never met.
[5:20]I had read her manuscript, and she had read mine, and there were a couple of other people.
[5:26]I think there were four of us that first time.
[5:29]And I actually thought, I had tiny kids, of course, at that point, and I just thought,
[5:33]are you really doing this?
[5:34]You know, you're leaving New York, have all my goodness, you know, making a plane to
[5:43]stay with a woman at her house, and you've never met her.
[5:47]And I guess at that point, my longing to, you know, make that first book work sort of overpowered
[5:55]all of my fears, which was a really good thing.
[5:58]And how, so now I've read two books of yours, not all of them, of course, but how is it
[6:06]that you are able to capture the middle grade experience so well?
[6:11]And all those hopes and fears and the friendship dynamics, and even when it's not based
[6:18]in reality, even when, you know, the worlds are different, but the emotions are the same.
[6:23]Like, tell me a little bit about that, or if it just comes naturally to him.
[6:27]I think that a lot of it for me is just about not trying too hard.
[6:34]I think that if you have it in the front of your mind, like, okay, this is a book for
[6:39]children, and I have to remember I'm talking to children here.
[6:44]It generally does not lead to great places in terms of writing and story.
[6:49]I think that it's a real mistake to think about readership too much when you're writing.
[6:55]So mostly I'm writing these books for myself.
[6:59]I was a huge reader as a kid.
[7:03]I loved all kinds of books.
[7:04]And that's where the love started.
[7:07]I did not love writing as a kid.
[7:09]I was not one of those kids who was like, well, he's writing and had stories and had
[7:12]no books and wanted to raise our hand and share, no, not even a little bit.
[7:18]But books were huge.
[7:20]And I think that when I'm writing at my best, it's because I'm not really worried about
[7:29]who my readers are.
[7:30]I'm more focused on the characters in the story.
[7:33]And my characters are children.
[7:34]So I'm trying to channel what I remember about like the territory of childhood.
[7:40]But I'm mostly trying to get rid of any artifice.
[7:43]I mean, obviously the stories can get pretty wacky, particularly this new one.
[7:50]But that all comes from like a real love of the material, a real love for big twists and
[7:55]science fiction and, you know, thinking about what might be.
[8:00]Those kinds of questions are definitely just like a part of me and my material.
[8:06]I think we all just have like a big circle inside us.
[8:10]And there are many things in that circle that we could write about.
[8:14]And so I think it's a good idea to stay in your circle.
[8:17]Okay.
[8:18]So what are the things for people who don't know you as well?
[8:21]What do you think are the things in your circle?
[8:22]Oh gosh.
[8:23]I'm almost.
[8:24]I mean, you set yourself up for that question.
[8:26]I'm just saying.
[8:27]Yeah, I guess so.
[8:28]I walked right into that.
[8:29]I almost always, I'm writing about families, often they're not completely sort of the
[8:36]most typical family.
[8:38]I write, I grew up in New York with divorced parents.
[8:41]My parents separated before my memory started.
[8:46]So I always had two homes and I had step brothers and I have a half brother, but I would
[8:55]say that I have the psychology of an only child with divorced parents and terrific, terrific
[9:02]parents and but it was certain kind of, you know, view of the world, I think.
[9:09]And I think that a lot of, I think I was always observing families as a kid, like how does
[9:16]this family work?
[9:17]How does that family work?
[9:18]This is interesting.
[9:19]When I'm with my mom, these are the rules or when I'm with my dad, these are the rules.
[9:22]It's sort of like there was a depth to my thinking about family and I definitely write
[9:28]a lot about family, including non-traditional families.
[9:32]I'm obsessed with, I've learned from reading my own books with sort of what I would call
[9:39]acting in concert.
[9:41]When people come together to do things, I find it very moving.
[9:46]So I like I often, you know, get teary.
[9:49]So I get teary at the end of a play when the cast comes out, even if the play is not
[9:55]particularly moving, the way that the cat, when the cast comes forward.
[10:00]and they bow together, tears ring to my eyes.
[10:03]And there's something about that feeling
[10:07]of that connection, that community,
[10:09]that has always been really big and central for me.
[10:13]And so I think that my stories often have
[10:17]these moments of connection,
[10:19]where people are acting together,
[10:20]a lot of the time it's like a big group,
[10:24]weirdly, and so those are definitely,
[10:28]and then lots of relationships stuff.
[10:30]And my parents are almost always real people in my stories.
[10:34]I'm not one of those people
[10:35]who's just like getting the parents out of the way.
[10:38]I think that when you're 10, 11, 12, nine, eight,
[10:42]you know, these are my readers most of the time,
[10:46]parents are a huge part of your life, right?
[10:48]That is one of your central relationships.
[10:51]And it may not be what you're worried about,
[10:55]and hopefully that's a relationship you can take for granted.
[10:58]But there's no doubt that those relationships
[11:01]are still central at that age.
[11:03]And so I do have parents who are real human beings
[11:07]in my stories.
[11:08]And then I love science fiction.
[11:10]I love speculative fiction.
[11:12]I love big story turns that feel not like a betrayal
[11:17]of the reader, where it's a surprise,
[11:22]but also it's not sort of such a turn in the story
[11:28]that you feel like you've been pushed out of the story.
[11:31]You know, to say that exactly,
[11:34]but things that are surprising,
[11:36]but in a way that hopefully feels organic to the story.
[11:42]That's one of the things I work on a lot
[11:44]when I'm revising.
[11:46]So interesting.
[11:48]I'll never watch the end of a play
[11:50]from now on without thinking of you
[11:51]in this conversation.
[11:52]I have the same feeling when sports events,
[11:56]like when there's a big goal
[11:57]and everybody rushes the field and they're all hugging.
[12:00]I'm like, oh my gosh, I love watching.
[12:03]I absolutely.
[12:05]I love watching athletes hug and celebrate
[12:08]and run at each other and jump into each other's arms,
[12:11]all that.
[12:12]And just like one of my favorite things ever.
[12:15]We're now still people do that.
[12:16]They don't.
[12:17]What exactly?
[12:18]Yeah, take 20 men, do a dog pile.
[12:21]Like, it's not happening on 73.
[12:22]You know.
[12:23]Anyway, funny.
[12:26]So you do a lot of talking to schools.
[12:29]I know you went to my kid's school and everything.
[12:32]What has surprised you or what's something funny
[12:35]that's happened or what keeps you going
[12:37]when you do school visit after school visit?
[12:39]Like, what do you hear from the kids
[12:41]that is exciting all that?
[12:44]You know, I think for me,
[12:46]the best part of a school visit
[12:48]is where we're talking sort of writer to writer.
[12:52]That's what I love the most.
[12:53]If kids are willing to go there
[12:55]and talk about their own challenges or fears
[12:58]and it doesn't have to be about writing,
[13:00]it can be about anything
[13:01]where you're kind of putting yourself out there.
[13:04]But I really like hearing kids' questions
[13:08]about their own creativity, their own sort of worries
[13:12]or like when to share your work,
[13:14]who to share your work,
[13:15]what how to receive feedback?
[13:17]Like, these are things that writers who are working writers,
[13:23]I don't think they have really solved these questions
[13:27]because these are hard questions
[13:30]and every book is its own journey.
[13:32]But I think what I really love doing with young people
[13:36]is talking about the fact that their experience writing
[13:39]is shockingly like mine.
[13:43]It's not like other things
[13:45]where the experience, you know,
[13:47]a kid's experience doing it is wildly different
[13:51]from an adult's experience doing something.
[13:54]This is like, there's a way in which you don't ever grow up
[13:58]as a writer.
[13:59]I mean, you get better at believing
[14:01]that it's gonna work if you keep going.
[14:03]I think that once you've done that a few times,
[14:06]you can kind of keep the faith.
[14:07]Like, even when it feels horrible
[14:09]or hopefully, you know, now I have writer friends,
[14:12]which is the best.
[14:12]They can say to me,
[14:13]you will always reach this point
[14:15]where you wanna throw your book away.
[14:16]Just keep going, you know?
[14:18]And so if you can say that to yourself,
[14:20]hopefully you have a friend who can say it to you.
[14:23]But yeah, the best part of being with young people
[14:27]is just sharing that experience.
[14:30]And just being really honest about this struggle
[14:35]because, you know, nothing annoys me more than when people say
[14:38]they're just having a ball, right?
[14:41]Yeah.
[14:42]You know, it's super frustrating and lonely
[14:46]and there are great moments.
[14:48]And it is the thing closest to my heart for sure.
[14:53]I mean, I have never doubted that.
[14:56]But it's not always fun.
[14:58]And so that's something I like to talk about with kids.
[15:02]I love that.
[15:03]Yeah, I don't love like a crazy story.
[15:05]I mean, kids are funny and they will say like,
[15:08]you know, can I have the name you're agent?
[15:11]But I mean, who am I?
[15:12]I'm like, you know, it's, I never say never.
[15:16]You don't know who you're speaking to.
[15:18]You do.
[15:18]Please be talking to someone who's gonna publish a 15.
[15:21]I don't know.
[15:22]So, I mean, they gotta come from somewhere.
[15:27]Oh my gosh.
[15:28]So if there is, you know, a grandparent or an uncle
[15:33]or somebody listening who has a middle grade kid
[15:36]and it's like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know
[15:38]about Rebecca said somehow.
[15:40]Now I have to start my kid on her books.
[15:44]Where should they start?
[15:45]Like, what's the best entree into your work?
[15:48]Or what are the top three you would wanna give them?
[15:52]I mean, it depends a lot on the reader
[15:55]and the kind of story they like,
[15:57]whether the story is being read to a young person
[16:02]or whether this is someone who's gonna read on his or her own.
[16:06]I think that when you reach me is by far my most popular book
[16:12]in a way, it's sort of the most me
[16:16]in that I sort of put my childhood time and place in there
[16:20]and sort of used my own childhood,
[16:23]the material kind of in the whole little observations
[16:27]that you make about your world when you're a kid.
[16:29]That's the other thing I share with kids.
[16:30]It's like a lot of what I use in my work
[16:36]is information that they already have in their heads,
[16:39]like that I already carried by their age.
[16:41]And so just to remember the value of that.
[16:45]And nobody else has your collection of stuff, you know?
[16:50]But so when you reach me, I think in many ways,
[16:54]I don't know, maybe just because more people have read it,
[16:57]it feels like my most typical book.
[16:59]But Bob is a book that is great for slightly younger readers,
[17:05]I think.
[17:06]That's a book that I co-wrote with Wendy Mass,
[17:09]who has written many, many books,
[17:12]including the 11 birthday series and candy makers.
[17:16]And what else, goodbye stranger is my,
[17:20]I would say, most mature story.
[17:22]It is sort of an older middle grade story.
[17:25]It's about kids who are going through more complicated stuff
[17:29]and it's definitely the most mature.
[17:33]So I would say Bob is the youngest,
[17:36]goodbye stranger is probably the most mature.
[17:40]And everything in the middle, I don't know.
[17:44]I kind of have to know, I find this so hard to answer.
[17:49]And that's okay, that's a pretty good answer.
[17:51]That was good.
[17:52]Okay, good.
[17:54]When I reached out to you before and said it was required
[17:57]reading for my kids, you said you had mixed feelings
[17:59]about that, tell me more about that.
[18:02]I did it.
[18:03]Yeah.
[18:03]I hate the idea of a kid suffering through my books.
[18:08]Like, I feel like if this story, no matter who wrote it,
[18:13]including me, it's not working for you.
[18:16]You know, I always want a kid to be able to put a book down
[18:21]and to find one that is gonna be for them.
[18:25]And so I'm always encouraging adults in my life
[18:30]to let kids just read as they will,
[18:33]including lots of rereading,
[18:36]which I think is a key wonderful experience as a reader.
[18:40]I've had, you know, parents saying to me,
[18:42]my kid just wants to reread.
[18:43]And I always say, let them.
[18:46]I mean, that means that they're finding love and safety
[18:49]and happiness in a book, like let them go there as often
[18:52]as they want, it doesn't matter.
[18:54]Including graphic work, including silly work,
[18:58]including comic books.
[19:00]I loved, I was a huge comic book reader as a kid.
[19:03]And it definitely, you know, fed me in ways
[19:07]that I probably don't really understand,
[19:09]but I was so hungry for those stories.
[19:12]I love them.
[19:13]And since the Calvin and Hobbs reference is genius,
[19:18]I'm in awe.
[19:19]And yeah, I mean, that's a good example
[19:22]of just how sophisticated really a comic can be.
[19:26]That's a deep friendship and also just the love in that.
[19:30]The love between Calvin and Hobbs
[19:33]is something that I loved just holding in my heart
[19:37]while I was writing the friendship between the two boys
[19:41]and the experiment because I really love writing friendships.
[19:46]And I love whatever the genders,
[19:50]it doesn't really matter.
[19:51]But in this book, it's a friendship between two boys,
[19:55]which is strong and pure.
[19:58]And that.
[20:00]It's something that definitely kept me going through this one.
[20:05]Did your son, how is it going with the book?
[20:08]Which book is he reading?
[20:10]He already finished when you reached me
[20:12]at the end of the summer.
[20:13]A lot of the daughter read it last year.
[20:15]And yeah.
[20:17]Okay, well.
[20:18]So it's going well.
[20:20]I hope it wasn't.
[20:21]I hope there was, yeah, that it was a pleasure
[20:24]at least some of the time.
[20:26]I think the nature of, I think what you're saying,
[20:28]like the fact that it was required.
[20:30]I think he would have read it.
[20:31]And he, you know, he's a big reader.
[20:33]So it was good.
[20:34]Well, that's great.
[20:35]Yeah.
[20:36]What else he's reading?
[20:37]Yeah.
[20:38]He's in a Stuart Gibbs phase as well.
[20:40]Oh, yeah.
[20:41]Fantastic.
[20:42]Stuart Gibbs.
[20:43]I'm reading this right now,
[20:44]which I saw on your most anticipated list.
[20:48]Can you read those?
[20:49]Oh, yes.
[20:50]And I'm in my son, you and Lulee.
[20:52]The nine Luleles of Panyu and Lulee.
[20:54]This is so, I am like every time
[20:59]I have five minutes, I'm grabbing it up to read it.
[21:02]Oh, yes.
[21:03]I was so excited to see that one on her listing.
[21:06]Rina is also a friend of mine.
[21:08]Oh, great.
[21:09]Amazing.
[21:10]We're going to WNBA game tonight.
[21:12]Oh, my gosh.
[21:13]We'll have fun.
[21:14]Look at you.
[21:15]Yes.
[21:16]Yeah.
[21:18]Well, Rebecca, thank you so much.
[21:19]Thank you for chatting with me for all the time
[21:23]you spend with all the kids and all the encouragement
[21:26]you give them.
[21:26]And who knows?
[21:27]Your talks have probably produced many writers already.
[21:31]So thank you so much.
[21:33]Well, thank you.
[21:34]And thanks for everything you are doing to showcase
[21:39]all of all of the books in the world.
[21:41]And there are many, many, and many deserving ones.
[21:45]But I feel very lucky to be here and to be on your fall list.
[21:51]So thank you so much.
[21:52]You're so welcome.
[21:53]OK.
[21:54]All right, take care.
[21:56]OK, bye, bye.
[21:57]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi,
[22:00]formerly mom's time to have time to read books.
[22:02]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[22:06]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens, and spread the word.
[22:10]Thanks so much.
[22:11]Oh, and bye the books.