Nicole Madigan, TORN: Four Women's Stories of Why They Left – or Why They Stayed
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[0:45]Nicole Madigan is the author of Torn, Four Women's Stories of Why They Left, or Why They
[0:50]Stayed.
[0:51]Nicole Madigan is a writer, editor, journalist, author, and advocate based in Brisbane, Australia.
[0:57]Previously a television reporter with the Nine Network, Nicole has spent the past 15 years
[1:01]writing investigative articles, news, paces, and long-form features for a wide range of
[1:06]publications.
[1:07]Nicole is a non-executive board director of Friends with Dignity, a charity providing
[1:11]support to victim survivors of domestic violence, and is an ambassador for domestic violence
[1:16]advocacy group My Red Flags.
[1:18]Nicole's debut nonfiction book, Obsession, a journalist, and victim survivors investigation
[1:24]into stalking was released in 2023.
[1:27]She is also the author of two children's books.
[1:29]Her new book, Torn, is out now, and by the way, I am obsessed with this book.
[1:33]Welcome, Nicole.
[1:34]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Butch to talk about Torn.
[1:38]I am so excited about this book.
[1:40]Yay.
[1:41]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:44]So Nicole, tell listeners about both the backstory of yours I really want to get into,
[1:52]and how you approach this project, what the book's about, oh my gosh, so much to discuss.
[1:58]Okay, so the book torn essentially, it's an exploration of that period of time in a long-term
[2:06]relationship between when we first sort of get that little feeling, usually as a result
[2:12]of some sort of betrayal or some occurrence that takes place, and when we decide whether
[2:19]or not we can live with what's happened and we stay in that relationship or we leave.
[2:24]So it's really about that middle period of indecision, and I think that's sometimes the most
[2:30]painful period of all is just that not knowing what to do.
[2:34]And as you point out in the book, you don't want to necessarily share the grievances
[2:39]about somebody you're with, because if you don't know if you're staying or leaving, you
[2:42]don't want to share and have people think poorly of the person or you don't want to
[2:47]err the dirty laundry if you're going to get back together, and so it's this crazy time
[2:51]of life which you illustrate so well through the women's stories.
[2:55]Yeah, I think in that talk makes it so confusing and so isolating is because when we're
[3:00]unsure, we're naturally wanting to keep those things to ourselves if someone has had
[3:04]an affair or they've lied to us or they've heard us in some way and we might stay.
[3:09]And one people to think about me if you partner, so you don't tell anyone, but by not
[3:13]telling anyone, you're not getting to sort of get a realistic viewpoint or get those
[3:19]feelings off your chest and you can be stuck in that really horrible, that kind of
[3:24]limbo poetry period where you're just, you're not a piece, you're just, you're in a state
[3:30]of sort of turmoil all the time.
[3:32]Yes.
[3:33]And as you also point out, the need to stay is and have your life sort of grounded is
[3:39]so really elementary to who we are as people, right?
[3:43]It's calming to have things the same.
[3:45]You want that, we want that, but yet it doesn't always work out that way.
[3:50]So everything seems to be fighting that instinct in a way.
[3:53]Yeah, I think you're right.
[3:55]And especially as women, I think we're so, it's so ingrained in us to protect our relationships
[4:01]and it's really interesting.
[4:03]I found when sort of looking at my own experiences and then talking to these women and
[4:09]they were so honest and open with me, that sort of, you know, why do we fight so hard
[4:16]to maintain relationships when they're hurting us, but we do do it.
[4:21]And there are so many reasons and there are so many barriers to leaving a relationship
[4:26]that it can be really confusing to know when we're the feelings and the real feelings
[4:31]and the feelings of love and as opposed to feelings of attachment or feelings of obligation
[4:37]or fear of what's on the other side or your children or the list goes on, you know,
[4:42]when it comes to the conflicting feelings that we kind of go through when we're trying
[4:46]to make that decision and make the right, you know, quote unquote, decision.
[4:51]And I think that way is really heavily on most women is doing that the right thing.
[4:56]Yes.
[4:57]So tell listeners about your own story, which is in the introduction and which is not
[5:02]the focus of the book, but which sets the context for the stories that you tell.
[5:06]Yeah, I guess, you know, my, you know, first marriage was one to my childhood sweetheart
[5:13]said we'd been together a really long time from when we were teenagers and I always kind
[5:18]of thought, you know, growing up that relationships were quite black and white.
[5:22]You know, you either wanted to be in them or you didn't want to be in them.
[5:25]If someone cheated on me, I would leave.
[5:27]If someone hit me, I would leave.
[5:29]I had all these sort of ideas in my mind and, you know, I write in the book about being
[5:33]a really young woman in my late 20s and talking to a woman who was older than me.
[5:39]And she had separated from her husband and mentioned that it had been on the cards for
[5:43]years.
[5:44]And at that time, I just couldn't get my head around that.
[5:46]Like how could you be considering ending a relationship for years, but that of course, you
[5:52]know, over the time, you know, things changed in my relationship.
[5:56]And, you know, I found myself innately knowing that the, the, the babies weren't right
[6:02]and that it, it wasn't right for me, but completely unable to, to bring myself to tear
[6:09]apart my family.
[6:10]I had children and I had this really idealistic view of what I wanted for my family.
[6:16]You know, I've grown up in a really, you know, I was very fortunate.
[6:19]I grew up in a really beautiful, stable home and my parents are still together and I wanted
[6:24]to give that to my kids.
[6:25]And so in the end, you know, it took me years before I decided to leave that relationship.
[6:33]And I guess in terms of, you know, the inspiration behind the book was that unfortunately,
[6:37]you know, fast forward 10 years and I thought that I'd, I'd found that fairy tale ending.
[6:42]For me and my children, but unfortunately, there was, there was a big betrayal in that
[6:47]relationship that really took me by surprise and was, was very unexpected because I thought
[6:52]being an older person, I'd really got it right this time and, and the prospect of this
[7:00]not working out was really terrifying to me and really devastating.
[7:04]And yeah, I guess it was consuming me and really, really affecting my, my mental health
[7:11]and my state of being and I guess I kind of wanted to know if I was alone in this and,
[7:17]you know, being journalist, it's in my nature to kind of reach out and see what other people
[7:21]think and, and that's where the idea for, for Tom came about, well, I'm sorry for some
[7:29]of the experiences that I do to the book and I had an event at my bookstore recently with
[7:35]a woman named Amber Ray.
[7:36]I told her about your book because her book is about her own story, but similar themes
[7:41]and all of that and one by one, everyone in the audience was sort of sharing about this
[7:45]in between time and, you know, do they go, do they stay?
[7:49]I mean, it was, it's quite an emotional, very vulnerable time and topic that you've really
[7:55]captured in a beautiful, fast-paced, introspective way with the women's stories.
[8:01]So, talk a little bit about the four women and how you picked them, how you were able to get
[8:06]them to share so much.
[8:08]This has a lot of three women by Lisa today, you know, shading.
[8:12]I don't know if you've read that book, but different.
[8:14]Yeah.
[8:15]Yeah.
[8:16]The, the, the deep, the depth into which you go is, is really amazing.
[8:21]So anyway, talk about the four, the four women.
[8:23]Yeah.
[8:24]So, um, I guess, you know, when I was approaching the book and who I wanted to include,
[8:29]I guess it was important to me to reach all women, you know, I wanted to, because this
[8:35]affects everyone, whether you're, you know, you could be a young woman in your twenties
[8:39]or, or a much older woman who's been married for me or 50 years where you're stuck in
[8:43]this period of, of in between this.
[8:45]So, I wanted to explore different ages and different generations and also different, different
[8:53]reasons for that feeling of indecision, but, you know, the, the, the theme I wanted to explore
[8:58]was, was that feeling of being torn.
[9:01]So we weren't, I wasn't looking for people who were just fallen out of love, which is
[9:05]its own complicated thing as well, because obviously there's still a lot of pressure to,
[9:10]to maintain a relationship where you just simply fallen out of love, but I wanted to
[9:14]look more at sort of betrayal or things that have taken place where you know that it's
[9:20]not right, something about it isn't right, but you have to rather work through it and
[9:25]stay or work through it and, and leave.
[9:28]And so in this book, we look at infidelity because infidelity is just unfortunately, you
[9:34]know, it's so common and, and so many people go through it and it seems so straightforward
[9:40]to most people, you know, you know, especially when you're younger, if someone cheats
[9:43]on you, you leave, but, but for a lot of women, it's, and then it's so much more complicated
[9:48]than that.
[9:49]When you actually find yourself there, it's not so easy to just leave up and leave.
[9:53]And I also looked at a substance misuse and, and gambling.
[9:57]So those issues are sort of.
[10:00]more complicated in other ways because there's that pressure to help and support people when they
[10:05]go through things which of course we need to do. But at the end of the day the common theme really
[10:10]is deception and betrayal and the breaking of trust really at the end of the day and how we
[10:18]managed that. So yeah I was really fortunate with the response I got when I reached out to my
[10:24]communities of people and I was really honest in what I wanted from the project. I wasn't a self
[10:29]help book I wasn't trying to provide answers to people. This is what you need to do or not do
[10:34]but really kind of just share what people are going through and you know allow people other women to
[10:41]know that you know they're not alone in this conflicting kind of contradicting feelings that they
[10:46]might be feeling. You know you can feel just as strongly about is leaving as you do about staying
[10:52]so it can be you know that's normal. I guess you know I wanted to show people that these experiences
[10:58]were universal and yeah and I think once people start opening up about things like this it's
[11:06]just amazing how how willing they are to share what they've been going through. I think it can be
[11:12]really freeing because a lot of the time as you pointed out before we haven't spoken to anyone
[11:17]about it. We don't talk about it and I think for these four women they they were really just
[11:26]vulnerable and open and I think you know I was really grateful that they were willing to trust me
[11:30]with their stories in this way because I think you know they just went through so much and I think
[11:37]you know I'm really honored to have been able to delve into their lives you know so intimately
[11:42]and have them share that with me and everybody else. How did their spouses or the other people in
[11:48]their families feel about their inclusion in the book? Yeah so two of the people, two of the women
[11:55]I interviewed shared this with their spouse and two of the women did not share this with anyone
[12:00]at all including their spouse and I guess you know obviously that depends on whether or not they
[12:06]stayed with that person because of the the nature of the things that they were talking about and I
[12:11]think you know that privacy is what enabled them to be so forthright. This is how they felt about
[12:19]not only their own feelings but about their partner and about their children and about their
[12:24]extended families and all of that sort of thing so it was it was a little bit mixed so
[12:30]oh there's just so much shame around this. There's shame in leaving and not being
[12:36]the person you thought you were in a marriage and the shame of having to you know spill the beans
[12:43]so to speak to your whole community but then there's the shame in allowing certain things to happen
[12:50]not knowing what you're supposed to it like the whole it's and it's so private and I feel like
[12:55]the shame and secrets themselves are so corrosive in a way and I feel like you do such a good job of
[13:02]exploring that and so I'm not surprised that not everybody wanted to to say that they had talked
[13:08]about it. What do you feel like you learned from your own feelings of sort of shame if you
[13:14]felt them or leave it like how do you how do you make sense of that? Yeah I think it's really hard and
[13:20]I think um you know this is the sort of book that I would have liked to have read because it's
[13:25]even in as my own life I'm folded and the occurrences that took place were happening kind of
[13:32]simultaneous to when I was writing this book and speaking to these women and it was really helpful
[13:37]to me too because it it really shows you that we are all in this together and there is no shame
[13:44]in it because as you say you know especially for me in my second marriage you know I had put a
[13:51]lot invested a lot into that emotionally and in all sorts of ways including my children
[13:57]into this you know bringing this person into their lives and you think you're older and wiser
[14:02]and you know I work a lot in the domestic violence space and I feel like I've got a pretty
[14:07]good understanding of signs and all of this sort of thing so it was it was really difficult for me
[14:14]especially when everyone sort of thought this person was was as incredible as I did so it was
[14:20]it was really difficult to to accept what I was seeing because you know if that were the case
[14:28]and this marriage were to end well then here I am 44 years old two two marriages behind me and
[14:34]nobody wants that you know my kids have been then through it twice you know it's it's it's really
[14:39]difficult and even talking about it now I'm saying it out loud you know I don't find easy
[14:44]but I don't want that for women you know I don't want you know even the language that you tend
[14:48]to use like you know I tend to say like I couldn't believe it you know I'd got it wrong but it's not
[14:53]really that you know you you can't it's not your fault if somebody lets you down and you put
[14:58]your faith and trust in somebody but we do tend to blame ourselves and I think the more we share
[15:05]you know the more that shame gets taken away yeah I hope anyway yeah wait so no tell me a
[15:13]little bit more about your career and becoming a journalist and getting to the point of writing
[15:18]this book yeah so I've been a journalist pretty much my entire working career has to start
[15:25]it off as a young cadet journalist in a in the local newspapers that that don't really exist
[15:31]anymore in Australia we don't we don't have the button out in the US but we don't we don't have
[15:35]them anymore sadly but yeah that's where I started my career and and just worked you know a few
[15:41]years in newspapers and then I moved into television and then when I had my family I moved out of
[15:48]television because the hours were too demanding you know I went I went back into print and that's
[15:52]when I kind of got more into investigations and features and and became much more interested in
[16:00]women's issues and domestic and family violence which became a specialised area for me which
[16:06]I'm really passionate about and and try to advocate in that area as much as I can so
[16:12]yeah and then yeah I wrote my first book a couple of years ago obsession and that was about
[16:17]you know stalking um both relationship within relationships and outside of relationships
[16:23]and yeah that's basically how I got here um and are you embarking on another new project at this
[16:29]point well I'm not sure you know I'm thinking of um maybe trying my hand at fiction and
[16:35]and and writing a novel if I find myself with any spare time um but you know it's one of those
[16:41]things for me that sometimes the the issue um I come across it or it happens to me or I see
[16:47]something happening to someone I know and I can't help it kind of delve in and investigate it I
[16:52]think it's just that um journalistic urge to to find out more and then share that information but
[16:58]yeah so you never know something like that might come along but until then I think yeah I'll
[17:02]probably try my hand at something um something a bit lighter and maybe maybe fictional
[17:09]amazing so the book came out already in Australia and it's available here in the US online
[17:15]right is that the best way to get it yeah yeah um ebook and um the audiobooks coming out in October
[17:22]but and still there's a print book you can get as well there's absolutely a print book yes that's
[17:26]right yeah online online yeah well I want to be able to sell it in my bookstore maybe we can talk
[17:32]after because that would be great I really really love this book and I've already recommended it
[17:36]to so many people in like the weeks since I read it so yeah I would love to help with wider
[17:42]distribution with at least through the store and recommendations and everything I think that a lot
[17:47]of people are gonna really benefit from this and I'm excited for them to get to know you because
[17:53]you're such a superstar there and and you deserve a bigger platform here so well thank you so
[17:58]much I would I would love that you know I'm so bright for for the chance to have a chat with you it's
[18:03]very exciting for me here in Australia oh yeah I have to get to Australia that is number one
[18:09]on my wish list everyone I need every Australian author I've met is so lovely I mean I know
[18:15]that's a mass generalization but I feel like I would feel right at home there it was just yeah
[18:20]it isn't really beautiful community I've got to say like it's it's one of the most supportive I
[18:24]think um industries around you know the author community it doesn't feel competitive at all it
[18:29]just feels so yeah so supportive and so yeah sort of closeness really nice and which part of
[18:35]Australia are you in I'm in Brisbane Queensland yes so very warm all the time well Nicole thank you so
[18:44]much thank you for your book thanks for coming on late at night your time and yeah congratulations
[18:50]it's a really fabulous piece of writing thank you so much I appreciate you having me on okay take
[18:55]care thank you thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi formerly mom's don't have
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