Jess Johnston, PERFECT IS BORING (AND IT TASTES LIKE KALE): Finding Belonging and Purpose Without Changing Who You Are
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
[0:06]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
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[0:45]Jess Johnston is the author of Perfect is Boring, and it tastes like kale, finding belonging
[0:50]and purpose without changing who you are.
[0:53]Jess lives in Southern California with her husband and four kids who are the loves of her
[0:56]life.
[0:57]And anyagram seven, and is enthusiastic about everything, but especially people, travel,
[1:03]and sauces.
[1:04]Jess is writing makes you feel like you're sitting cross-legged on her couch, in your cozy
[1:08]pants while sharing hearts and drinking coffee.
[1:11]She is the co-author of the Wall Street Journal bestseller.
[1:14]I'll be there, but I'll be wearing sweatpants, and has been a top contributor to publications
[1:18]such as HuffPost, Scary Mummy, and Motherly.
[1:21]Welcome, Jess.
[1:22]Thanks so much for coming on Totally Book to Zibi to talk about.
[1:25]Perfect is boring, and it tastes like kale, finding belonging and purpose without changing
[1:30]who you are.
[1:31]Thank you.
[1:32]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:34]As you can see, fire introduction here, where I was in the wrong place when we started,
[1:39]but certainly not perfect, and your advice was right on point for me, so thank you for
[1:45]that.
[1:46]Oh, I love that.
[1:47]Why do you tell listeners what your book is about?
[1:50]My book is really about my own journey with perfectionism and also just realizing how powerful
[1:58]it is when we find out we're not the only one, struggling through life, making mistakes,
[2:04]not hitting this invisible mark that feels no matter where we reach, it's going to always
[2:10]be out of reach.
[2:12]I feel like specifically for women in every area of our lives, and so letting that
[2:20]go and learning that I'm not alone in the process, and actually there's so much connection
[2:25]to be found when we're real and vulnerable about the hard stuff, the messy stuff, the imperfect
[2:31]stuff is really, really powerful.
[2:34]So that's what I hope women get from this book is the feeling of connection and the feeling
[2:42]of just being able to embrace ourselves how we are.
[2:46]I'm like about to cry.
[2:47]Thank you.
[2:48]I need this.
[2:50]I feel like, especially in this end of the year time, and I know this episode will come
[2:54]out later, but we're all just racing and there are thousand things on our list to do,
[2:59]and it's just hard not to feel like balls are constantly dropping.
[3:02]Do you feel like it feels impossible because it is like this never-ending list that we have.
[3:10]It is impossible.
[3:11]Great.
[3:12]I'm glad we're clear on that.
[3:16]Can I read a section or do you want to start?
[3:20]Okay, first of all, you're so funny.
[3:22]Oh, thank you.
[3:23]Yeah, there's this, you said, you're talking about scrolling on Instagram and you're like,
[3:27]my thumb hovers over a girl on your own high school.
[3:29]She has so many cool tattoos.
[3:31]I feel like I'm a full-sleeved person on the inside.
[3:34]Maybe I should get one.
[3:36]Oh, my gosh, there's so many.
[3:37]I love that line.
[3:38]But anyway, you'll go on to say, sometimes I have a hard time staying in my own lane,
[3:43]especially if I'm particularly unimpressed with my lane at that moment, like in the morning,
[3:47]and I know my next big exciting activity is going to be scrambling eggs and desperately
[3:52]searching the house for my kid's socks.
[3:55]I don't know if I should say this out loud, but sometimes my life is a little boring.
[3:59]So I get distracted by someone else's life.
[4:01]And then I get stressed out because their life also seems hard to achieve.
[4:05]My lane is where my piece is.
[4:06]I know that.
[4:07]It's just that it's also where the laundry and the dishes are.
[4:09]I'm working on it.
[4:10]I love that.
[4:12]I'm getting a little more about staying in your lane and looking at other people's lives
[4:18]and wanting what they have, even if you don't really know the full story.
[4:22]Oh, gosh.
[4:23]I just feel so.
[4:24]I'm so easily distracted.
[4:26]I think, and especially, like I said, when things are a little boring, or I would also
[4:31]say when things are stressful, when I feel like I'm maybe not measuring up and the things
[4:36]I want to achieve in my lane, then I start being like, hmm, what's everybody else
[4:42]is doing.
[4:43]It feels, and it also feels very like inside my body, it feels like being rushed is the
[4:50]feeling I get.
[4:51]Like I'm hiking on a trail and there's someone coming up fast behind me, and I feel
[4:55]like I got a race ahead.
[4:57]But for me, it's been really, really important to just let it go.
[5:01]Let go of who I am or who I'm not and the kind of embrace who I am.
[5:07]And I'm a pretty messy person.
[5:08]Like I have a lot of quote unquote flaws, not super organized.
[5:13]I never know where my kids socks are, like ever.
[5:17]Every morning is like a scramble to find socks for all of us.
[5:21]So I don't know.
[5:23]Once you have teenage girls, they want the socks to match and also be the right brand
[5:28]that matches the shoes, that's like a whole other thing.
[5:31]My teenage girl will only wear my socks.
[5:34]So now I have no socks.
[5:36]I was literally just talking to someone else who said the same thing this morning.
[5:40]Yeah.
[5:41]Finally, I just found a pair of her socks this morning and I was like, huh, take that,
[5:44]Lulu.
[5:45]And socks have taken a free.
[5:46]Yeah.
[5:47]I know.
[5:48]Once you can share clothes, that's been a whole thing, which I kind of love.
[5:52]I love sharing clothes.
[5:54]And I have friends that have those strengths.
[5:56]So I see people who clearly have like these perfectly curated houses, clearly very organized.
[6:03]And so then I can, it's really easy to start being really hard on myself, but I'm just
[6:08]in the place in my life where I want to let that go.
[6:10]Like, I'm probably not going to know where all the socks are.
[6:13]Maybe ever.
[6:14]Maybe I'll figure it out.
[6:15]Maybe not.
[6:16]But that's okay.
[6:17]I have other strengths that I can lean into.
[6:20]And no matter what I am accomplishing or achieving or doing, there's going to be balls
[6:29]that drop, I guess.
[6:31]And meanwhile, from the outside, people will look at you and be like, oh, my gosh,
[6:34]if only, like, no, I've written to books, you've got this big following people are probably
[6:39]just like, what?
[6:40]Yes.
[6:41]So what that her house is messy?
[6:42]Right.
[6:43]Why is that the thing that you have determined will measure your success?
[6:48]Right.
[6:49]But it's so empowering when we realize that we all have that stuff.
[6:54]It doesn't matter who you're looking at, they have stuff that they feel like they're
[7:00]dropping or it's not meeting the mark.
[7:04]And I love that you found real validation through a close girlfriend because, my gosh,
[7:09]what would we do without our girlfriend?
[7:11]Yeah.
[7:12]And that you said something like, you know, I'm a mess today or whatever.
[7:14]And she's like, great, I still love you when you're a mess or it doesn't matter what
[7:18]your house looks like.
[7:19]Or totally mess with it.
[7:21]I feel like those totally mind blowing to me.
[7:23]I think it's specific.
[7:25]Like, I was, my house was a mess, I was a mess emotionally.
[7:29]I wasn't like.
[7:30]I'm not going to be fun today.
[7:32]I'm just all kinds of chaotic and overwhelmed.
[7:36]And she was like, she was like completely unimpressed with my, my whole list of things
[7:41]that I'm failing at, quote unquote, I was like, I like you when you're fun and not
[7:47]fun.
[7:48]I like you when you're a mess, when you're not a mess.
[7:51]And that's just like the most brain thing.
[7:55]These could be greeting cards.
[7:57]Yes.
[7:58]Yes.
[7:59]I love that.
[8:00]Here, let me jump to another section, like every other page here is, is dog-eared.
[8:13]Here's another one.
[8:14]You said when we moved twice three years later and landed in a town where the high school
[8:18]had more than 2000 kids, I felt like I was drowning.
[8:21]I was just a face, just a body taking up space, just one awkward teenager in a herd
[8:26]of teenagers.
[8:27]There were a few people who took the time to notice offering me a lifeline.
[8:31]I was in desperate need of one was the woman who ran the writing center.
[8:35]She encouraged me in my creative writing process, letting me know she saw me and heard
[8:39]me talk about when you found writing to be helpful for you and how they'll continue to
[8:46]be.
[8:47]Oh, man.
[8:48]I think that started as a little girl.
[8:49]I remember books like reading was always such a huge thing for me.
[8:55]I remember, for some reason, I remember cutting up this line paper into little squares
[9:01]and then writing like a teeny, tiny book in like third grade, but I was also super overwhelmed
[9:07]by it.
[9:08]Even as like a kid, I was like, this is going to be so hard.
[9:12]Like, after a whole story or 150 pages or 300 pages, but it was always just a language
[9:23]that gave a way of communicating that really unlocked something in me and ability to express
[9:31]what was going on inside that I just really fell in love with.
[9:35]I probably fell in love with it the most in high school because I was really struggling.
[9:39]I was really lonely.
[9:41]I started to get friends in my senior year, but I really didn't have like a tight knit
[9:45]community.
[9:46]So I did really feel lost and alone.
[9:49]And that was definitely a saving, like a lifeline for me.
[9:53]So when people are feeling at their most alone, aside from writing and when they are feeling
[9:59]the most.
[10:00]self, when they're feeling the hardest on themselves, how can you get other people to do what you've done and say like, it's okay, like I don't care about being nothing you don't care about thing for me, but how do we let go of some of those expectations?
[10:15]Hmm. So it's such a good question. First of all, I just like to say to every woman in the whole entire planet, like it's okay. You're okay. No matter what the list says, no matter what you feel like you're failing at, I promise you're okay. And you're not the only one, whatever it is. But I think finding other, finding friendship based on vulnerability in that way.
[10:45]And I really think that takes stepping out and kind of being honest with the things that we're struggling with. And it doesn't have to be these huge deep things to start with either. It can very simply be, I was super frustrated this morning trying to get all my kids fed and I had a terrible morning or, you know, it can be very just admit and meeting to someone else that is not perfect.
[11:15]And that it's actually hard sometimes and you feel like a failure in this area or that area. I have just found that to be what unlocks for me, an ability to just like a cyber leaf when another woman looks into my eyes and is like, oh my gosh, that was me yesterday or I get it. You're good.
[11:39]There's just nothing like, I think getting out of my own head, getting out of your own head, because that can just be crushing these cycles of thoughts and pressure can be crushing.
[11:49]So with something you feel like you totally dropped the ball on lately.
[11:54]I have teenagers. So I feel like all the time I'm like, maybe I've got four kids. I feel like all the time I'm like winning and connecting with maybe one or two of them.
[12:07]And then I need to work on my relationship with the other two. It's very hard. Like we're missing it with my 14 year old daughter, but okay, feels good with my 18 year old son.
[12:20]And that's hard because I want to feel in a constant state of good and connection and making sure I know what's going on in their lives and you know, I literally I as you, I also have four kids.
[12:33]And as I was putting one of them to bed last night, I was like, I feel like we didn't really connect the scene.
[12:39]Like, because I had a moment and then I came home and then I was at my desk and she was doing her art project and did it and then she was reading and I was there and I was like, we didn't like have a good thing tonight.
[12:50]And she's like, that's okay. Like we don't know. I know. Yeah.
[12:54]And she's like, I had a great night. Did you have a good night? And I was like, I did. She's like great. Good night.
[13:00]So I always feel like sometimes we feel like we need to be giving more than maybe even the people want to be receiving.
[13:06]Absolutely. I remember a mom who was like a decade or two ahead of me in the process. She also had four kids.
[13:14]And she told me this story about when she kind of a meltdown like she went through just a very difficult time emotionally.
[13:23]I was like a month or so where she didn't. She was dealing with all this other stuff. And she was didn't feel like she was as present as she wanted to be with her kids because she was.
[13:33]She remembers, you know, sometimes I would put a movie on for them and I just lay in bed and cry.
[13:38]And when they were older adults, she asked them, like, do you remember that feeling so guilty? And her kids were like, yeah, that was awesome. We watched so many cartoons like they're, they're memory of it was not like terrible at all.
[13:53]It was completely fine.
[13:56]It's the stories we tell ourselves. I think that's really what your book was saying over and over. It's like what we tell ourselves and how we frame the things that are happening can be the worst part about it.
[14:08]And we have to be perfection organized and it can't be. So let's just roll with it.
[14:14]Totally. And let's do it together.
[14:17]And you actually moved for a friend, which is rare.
[14:20]Talk about.
[14:21]Yes.
[14:22]Well, so my, our closest friends and us decided to move together. She's the one. She's, she was the keeper. I had to keep her because she was the one who's like, I love you messy or not messier.
[14:35]I'm like, okay, so we all decided we didn't feel settled where we were living out. We're living in Montana. Our kids were more little.
[14:43]But I was like, if we're going to make a move, I want to do it sooner than later. And we had dinner with these friends one night. And they were kind of feeling restless too. And we're like, what do you think about moving somewhere but moving there together? And I don't know. They're like, let's do it.
[15:01]So we took a trip, actually some other friends joined in to see if they wanted to move to.
[15:08]And we got a little Airbnb where we live in Santa Barbara now.
[15:12]And that's where we got the little Airbnb and just kind of spent the week exploring like is this a place where we could see raising our kids.
[15:21]Does this feel like it could be home for all of us and Santa Barbara really lures you in. It's it's very beautiful and sunny and we're of course all like, yes, this is it.
[15:34]Absolutely.
[15:36]And so we did it. But it was amazing as I moved a lot as a kid. I will say it was moving it can always be difficult, but it was very incredible.
[15:46]Moving to a completely new place, but having friends with so much history that as you're struggling to find your way, you can be like, what do you have in your fridge. I have this in my fridge. You want to come over and just vent and talk about how it's going.
[16:02]So it was it was really wonderful. It's been almost eight years now.
[16:06]I saw you at Godmothers, of course. Yeah. Yeah. I love that up there. Oh, it's amazing. So I could have it.
[16:15]And I love your bookstore finally get visit. Wonderful.
[16:21]How do you go about growing your platform because you've also pulled that along the way. What are some of the things that you have found most successful or is it just being really authentic and hoping people find you.
[16:34]How do you do that? That is a huge way that I've learned to stay in my lane. There was a lot of voices like you need to do this. You need to do that.
[16:42]For me, what worked was really telling my truth, not in like a I'm not like the most everything's out there vulnerable person on the internet, but just talking about what I'm dealing with in my life right now.
[16:57]I never area is at the beginning. It was all about motherhood and the messiness of motherhood. Then I started talking more about friendship and how it can actually be very difficult to make and maintain friends as an adult.
[17:09]But yeah, speaking your own something that really resonates with you. There's a big chance that it will resonate with others as well.
[17:20]Just to give Kale a better rap than you gave it on the car.
[17:24]You were like, I actually don't even really mind Kale.
[17:28]My friend was like a newer friend was like, well, hang on, Jess. I actually really like Kale. I'm like, okay, but do you other things you like better like cheese or chocolate?
[17:38]She was like, all right. All right.
[17:41]Oh my gosh. Do you have another book coming in this now?
[17:46]Not yet. I'm I'm reeling right now a little bit. I'm like taking a moment.
[17:51]But I don't know if you feel this way, but it always feels like there's words inside of me.
[17:56]I just don't know where they're going to land. And I also feel like as my kids get older and are going to start leaving for college.
[18:05]This is a whole new landscape and all kinds of feeling and emotions I'm wrestling with now.
[18:14]So I don't know. The words are coming, but they're not quite there yet.
[18:20]Oh, the page will be waiting.
[18:24]Not to fear. Just thank you so much. Thank you for all the reassurance that I found reading your book.
[18:30]I know others will feel the same way. Perfect is boring and it tastes like Kale. Thank you so much for coming on.
[18:35]Thank you, Vibby. Okay, take care. Thank you so much. Thank you.
[18:40]Have a great day. Bye.
[18:41]Bye. Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibby, formerly mom's don't have time to read books.
[18:47]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibby Owens.
[18:53]And spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.