Kate Price, THIS HAPPENED TO ME: A Reckoning
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[0:44]Kate Price is the author of This Happened to Me, a Reckoning.
[0:48]Kate is an associate research scientist at the Wellesley Center for Women, a gender-based
[0:53]research institute at Wellesley College.
[0:55]She is also a senior research scholar at the Global Association of Human Trafficking
[0:58]Scholars, an advisor for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's
[1:02]Child Sex Trafficking Expert Working Group, and Global Platform for Child Exploitation Policy.
[1:08]And an alumni scholar at the Brandeis University Women's Studies Research Center, an internationally
[1:14]recognized child sex trafficking expert and lecturer, Price's research has influenced
[1:18]the passage of state-level children's human rights legislation.
[1:22]Price is the recipient of a My Life My Choice Beacon of Light Award, a Conrad N. Hilton,
[1:27]humanitarian prize medal, a Mariam K. Chamberlain Dissertation Award from the International
[1:32]Centers for Research on Women, and an American Association of University Women Dissertation
[1:38]Fellowship.
[1:39]She has worked extensively with trauma pioneers, Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, author of The
[1:43]New York Times Besseling Book, The Body Keeps the Score, in which Price is Featured,
[1:47]and Dr. Judith Herman.
[1:49]Price received her MA in Gender and Cultural Studies from Simmons College, an earned her
[1:53]PhD in Sociology from the University of Massachusetts Boston.
[1:57]She lives in Massachusetts with her family.
[1:59]Welcome, Kate.
[2:00]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Civi to talk about this happened
[2:04]to me, a memoir.
[2:06]Congratulations.
[2:07]Thank you so much, and thanks for having me.
[2:08]It's my pleasure.
[2:10]Powerful does not begin to describe this book.
[2:13]This is like a gut punch, and you are such a good writer, and your story is just unreal.
[2:23]What you got through yourself and the way that you processed it and wrote about it and
[2:28]shared it with us.
[2:30]It's like genius, so thank you for writing it, and my heart just goes out to you in
[2:36]every way.
[2:37]That's very kind.
[2:38]Thank you for your kind words.
[2:39]Why don't you tell listeners what the book is about?
[2:42]Okay.
[2:43]So the book is really ultimately about healing and truth, from my father sexually abused
[2:50]me from a very early age until age 12 when he left our home.
[2:55]And during that time, he also sold me for sex to truckers along Route 80, an interstate
[3:03]that runs very near my childhood home in Northern Appalachia.
[3:08]So the book really is about me grappling, so one surviving that, and then two grappling
[3:15]with my memory and ultimately healing.
[3:18]Kate, how can you just sit and calmly say that?
[3:21]And you have to say it over and over again, doing publicity for this book.
[3:24]How are you dealing with that?
[3:26]I say it all of the time because I'm actually a researcher.
[3:29]That's my area of study is transects trafficking, particularly domestically, but also internationally.
[3:35]I think for multitude of reasons, I meditate every day, wellness is a huge part of my life
[3:44]and managing my PTSD.
[3:47]And I was also extraordinarily lucky to meet Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, the author of the
[3:54]body keeps the score of which I am in.
[3:57]He's been my therapist for over, you know, for about 30 years now.
[4:02]We met when I was working at Harvard University and my therapist at the time saw him speak
[4:07]when I was in my mid-20s and when I was really just starting to dive into all of this.
[4:13]And I became one of his most successful patients with the EMDR when that was still a very
[4:19]new and controversial modality.
[4:22]So he helped save my life, you know, he's been very much of a guide for me.
[4:27]And we joke that I don't see him that often now, but I joke that we joke that we are both
[4:34]the head of each other's mutual admiration society.
[4:37]Oh, that's so sweet.
[4:39]When you wrote in detail about all of your sessions with him and how that all happened
[4:43]and I found that absolutely fascinating, how did your body keep the score?
[4:48]How did my body, first I just want to say I was very having those sessions and there
[4:54]was very intentional for me because one of the primary reasons I wrote this book was when
[5:02]I was healing from all of this, I needed a roadmap and this was all so new and overwhelming
[5:07]and what was going on and I didn't have a roadmap and I needed that.
[5:12]So I wanted to, and people not just healing from sexual trauma, but really any trauma.
[5:19]So I wanted to be very transparent.
[5:22]And so in consort with Bessel, I wrote those and he signed off on them, you know, and
[5:27]so it was very much of a, I see it as a public service announcement in a way.
[5:32]And then in terms of how my body kept the score was throughout childhood, I would pass
[5:38]the rest area where I was being, where I was being trafficked, I would have, and I would
[5:43]just feel weird, you know, and it was, I just didn't know, but I was just in survival
[5:47]mode, you know, at that point.
[5:50]And then I would have flashbacks and just various points.
[5:54]And so much of this was so spot on developmentally, you know, in adolescence, in my teens,
[6:01]I was suicidal, you know, in my, in my teens in early 20s, of course, you know, because
[6:06]like I have no idea what's happening.
[6:08]But then really once I moved to Boston and Cambridge in 12 step programs is called the
[6:16]geographical cure, you know, it's like you're getting, I had that distance, physical and
[6:21]increasing emotional distance.
[6:24]And my body just felt safe and I felt safe, you know, for the first time I started working
[6:28]at Harvard, like my academic career was really starting and I was just building my own
[6:33]life.
[6:34]And it all came flooding out because it was safe and it was terrifying.
[6:40]And yet by that time, I really had the scaffolding built around me that when all of that
[6:46]happened, I could pick up the phone, you know, and say, I'm in danger.
[6:50]And then had a plan, you know, with Bessel, but also with my other therapist.
[6:54]And I still have those things, you know, to a degree in terms of just, you know, it's
[6:59]in the book, my husband and I call it, Kate management skills, you know, it's like so much
[7:03]of it is how to man, I still just have to manage my PTSD, you know, every single day.
[7:08]Oh my gosh.
[7:09]Well, the way that you wrote about all of this and took us with you and just to back
[7:16]up with the abuse for listeners who aren't aware, your dad would also inject you or have
[7:23]you drink medicine that at the end of the book, you weren't exactly sure still what it
[7:29]was.
[7:30]We don't know.
[7:31]But something that he found, perhaps this is, he worked in a hospital, something he managed
[7:36]to procure that made you black out and, you know, pass out theoretically the whole time.
[7:41]You're not even sure.
[7:43]So that is how he was able and he write in the book about him waking up in the morning
[7:49]and you're in your night gown with like no underwear.
[7:52]Oh my gosh, Kate, it was just because you were so young and I hate, I don't want to like,
[7:58]you know, over dramatize because this is your life and, you know, you wrote about it very
[8:03]factually and whatever, it's just as a reader and I'm sure you will experience this time
[8:08]and again, like it is the reader is going to be processing and reflecting it back to you
[8:12]sort of the way.
[8:13]So I'm sure you're ready for that.
[8:14]But anyway, I'm falling into that, I'm falling into that camp.
[8:18]One of the things that you wrote about, which struck a chord with me, we were joking
[8:23]ahead of this about like what in our lives because so similar, but you wrote about Judy
[8:28]Bloom and how those books got you through.
[8:30]Can I just read this little passage you wrote about that?
[8:33]Absolutely.
[8:34]Okay.
[8:35]You said, I found, well, I said, okay, you wrote, this is chapter 11.
[8:38]The idea of sex, intimacy and the emotions around them are confusing for any adolescent.
[8:42]In my case, my mind dissolved into a morass around these topics.
[8:46]I couldn't square the explicit pornographic images.
[8:49]My father gleefully showed me in private with the anatomical health films about puberty.
[8:53]My classmates and I watched red-faced and embarrassed silence.
[8:57]It felt shameful to view either of these yet I wasn't exactly sure why.
[9:01]To bridge the gap, I like millions of other kids discovered Judy Bloom.
[9:05]Her books didn't just comfort me.
[9:06]They helped keep me alive and were among the few things that kept me going.
[9:10]I found relief and reassurance in the way she celebrated life's messiness and addressed
[9:14]unspeakable topics, such as depression, hormones, sexual desire, and sibling rivalry.
[9:20]She was authentic, real, and her courageous characters made me feel less alone.
[9:26]Oh my gosh.
[9:28]Talk about that and the solace you found in books.
[9:32]Just to get, I get teary like even hearing that.
[9:35]Research shows that children who are enduring anything in terms of trauma, you know, difficult
[9:42]life situations, if there is one safe adult in their life, it increases or decreases
[9:48]their risk of suicidality, depression, all of these things, and people always say,
[9:53]who was that person for you in your life?
[9:54]And for me, it was Judy Bloom.
[9:56]I did, she was some amorphous person out there.
[10:00]And she really did help save my life.
[10:02]I mean, that's what you asked earlier in terms of like,
[10:05]how does your body keep the score?
[10:07]All of this, you know, Judy Bloom was really my first safe adult,
[10:10]truly, and to have her voice in books just meant the absolute world to me.
[10:16]I mean, books saved my life in high school then.
[10:19]It was J.D.
[10:21]Salinger, who was a complicated individual, you know, in that,
[10:24]but reading the capture in the rye was the first time I read a trauma novel.
[10:28]I mean, that's what it's really about is trauma in my experience.
[10:32]And so just those words, it gave me access to,
[10:36]I knew that there was someone saying out there and someone who saw me.
[10:40]And knowing, you know, later, I forget what year it came out,
[10:44]but her book letters to Judy, you know, kids were writing her,
[10:48]that phenomenal documentary that just came out.
[10:51]You know, she developed really strong interpersonal relationships with some children.
[10:56]It never even occurred to me to write to her.
[10:59]I mean, I just wouldn't have done that.
[11:01]But to know that other people did and that she took that seriously came across in the page,
[11:06]like, even though I knew it on some level and she was just a level of comfort and safety
[11:10]for me.
[11:11]And I felt her presence, you know, in the library and my town library,
[11:14]that was also my safe space that helped keep me alive.
[11:18]Have you told Judy Bloom that?
[11:20]Not yet.
[11:21]I've tried.
[11:23]Can I connect you?
[11:24]I just had her on my podcast.
[11:25]Oh, my gosh, I would absolutely love that.
[11:28]I mean, I mean, I probably will be a blubbering idiot.
[11:31]Like so many people just like dissolve at her feet.
[11:34]But...
[11:35]Well, let me try.
[11:35]I'll email you both.
[11:37]I would be honored.
[11:38]I would be so honored.
[11:38]I think she should know.
[11:40]I mean, it's one thing to know that your book reaches millions, right?
[11:43]That's just like a sentence.
[11:44]But it's the individual effects of the books.
[11:47]Isn't this why everybody writes?
[11:50]Like, you're going to have this with your readers, too.
[11:52]Connection, absolutely.
[11:54]I mean, this is one thing I really know is that it's been said, you know,
[11:58]isolation is the glue that holds oppression in place.
[12:02]That was very much the case of what my father did to me and Sissy.
[12:07]My sister really kept us isolated from one another.
[12:11]And books I really do believe are ultimately about connection.
[12:14]We are a species of meaning makers.
[12:18]We are a species of storytellers.
[12:20]And so the very fact that I've survived,
[12:22]all I've survived and can write about it.
[12:26]How could I not?
[12:27]It also helps that I married to a journalist who very early in our marriage was like,
[12:33]who really showed me the power of journalism.
[12:36]And this was also kind of around the time that Spotlight had come out.
[12:40]And so I could just really see, you know, the power of journalism.
[12:43]And then once I did work with the journalist for 10 years,
[12:47]and we were able to really get to the bottom of my story,
[12:50]it really became time, you know, to write the book as well.
[12:53]So having him along with me as a journalist,
[12:57]and then he's also an author sports a little bit, you know, lighter.
[13:01]I'm a huge baseball fan.
[13:02]So that's where we really connect, but he's really,
[13:05]that's really helped me feel very, very, very familiar and comfortable
[13:10]with the journalistic process as well as the publishing industry.
[13:14]Well, both of those that you wrote about in the book are,
[13:17]were such a big relief to me as the reader reading your life,
[13:22]because of course you end up in a series of horrific relationships in the aftermath of
[13:27]what happened with your father.
[13:28]And then when you met your husband, I was like, oh, yay,
[13:31]he's such a nice guy.
[13:33]I hope they end up together.
[13:34]Like, let's see what happens.
[13:36]And then you do, you know, spoiler, but it's in your bio, but so whatever.
[13:39]But I'm just so glad you were able to make a meaningful relationship with somebody so awesome.
[13:46]And then the journalist is also another key Janelle, I think her name's Janelle.
[13:50]No, no, no, no, no, no.
[13:51]No, no, no, no, the two of you like going through it together and the patients
[13:56]and all the steps you had to take to kind of build this case and the vindication you felt
[14:02]when you were like, oh my gosh, it wasn't just me.
[14:05]I didn't make this up.
[14:06]Even though you knew you didn't make it up, but just when you found the proof,
[14:09]oh my gosh, like how does that feel now?
[14:12]And also, what about like any sort of prosecution?
[14:17]Your father at the end of the book is denying everything.
[14:20]Is there anything next?
[14:22]Let me take that in a few steps.
[14:23]Okay.
[14:24]Why Janelle is phenomenal.
[14:27]She was a Pulitzer Prize finalist for the article that she wrote about our 10-year journey
[14:33]together.
[14:34]And the fact that it took us 10 years was so important because so many things needed to happen
[14:40]during that time meet the need to movement happened.
[14:44]Sandusky have been Jerry Sandusky.
[14:46]I grew up 45 minutes east of state college and so all of these things that we think,
[14:52]you know, people are just making it up.
[14:53]You know, like people just are beginning to believe survivors more and more,
[14:57]which to me is the biggest takeaway.
[14:59]When people read my story or read any story and they say they feel so helpless,
[15:03]you know, it's like what can I do?
[15:06]And for me, it is truly belief survivors.
[15:10]It has been said that everyone knows the victim, but no one knows a perpetrator.
[15:14]You know, and so it's like just that ability to hide and cover up is such an important part
[15:20]of how sexual violence or any violence or any domination control domestic violence continues to
[15:26]happen.
[15:26]So that silence and silencing victims is incredibly important.
[15:31]And then in terms of what's next, there's really nothing next.
[15:36]For now, the end of the book is how everything is ending.
[15:40]And yet, I'm also thrilled to say that I continue to spend time in my hometown.
[15:47]I'm doing a lot of advocacy work on policy, on practice.
[15:51]I'm on various task forces, policy advisory groups.
[15:55]Because ultimately, I cannot abandon the children in my hometown
[15:59]the way that my sister and I were abandoned.
[16:02]Wow.
[16:02]And your town really does become sort of complicit in this in a way in the silence.
[16:08]And the people who suspected but didn't say anything in the culture,
[16:13]I mean, it wasn't just you.
[16:14]I mean, this is generations of behavior,
[16:18]suicideality in your family.
[16:20]I mean, this is a lot.
[16:22]And there are just some places where these types of things are just not talked about in
[16:28]sanctioned and it's hard to believe in today's day and age, but it's true.
[16:32]It is true.
[16:33]And I think there's definitely a regional aspect to Appalachia.
[16:37]It is very isolated.
[16:39]It is very clanish.
[16:40]I mean, we're mostly had Scots and Irish ancestors.
[16:44]So all of that, as we know with epigenetics, it's very deep in our bones.
[16:48]It's survival.
[16:49]And yet, ultimately, as I've learned, as I've spoken to more and more people,
[16:55]family secrets are ubiquitous.
[16:57]I love Danny Shapiro's family secrets podcast.
[17:02]And it just shows that that's really, that happens everywhere.
[17:06]And so much of it is about family reputation and all of these.
[17:10]And I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.
[17:13]But while the particular kind of violence and the particular kind,
[17:17]the way the family secrets were kept, I think is very regional and specific to Appalachia,
[17:22]I don't think that they are special in any way, shape or form, family secrets or everywhere.
[17:29]And that's another big reason why I wanted to do the book, because I cannot tell you how many
[17:34]survivors I have met around my age or a little bit older who have lost a sibling to suicide
[17:41]because their family members would not believe them.
[17:44]So I just really wrote this ultimately.
[17:47]I really wrote it for anyone who's endured trauma or is enduring trauma,
[17:52]but really in terms of familial, commercial, sexual exploitation of children,
[17:56]survivors in victims.
[17:58]It is so isolating and you are so what would be the word,
[18:04]gas lit, you know, just so those secrets are so at the core.
[18:08]And this is your family.
[18:10]I mean, this is the people who are supposed to be protecting you.
[18:13]This is the people that society assumes are protecting you.
[18:17]And then if it's quite the opposite boy or the odds really stacked against you.
[18:22]Oh my gosh.
[18:22]Can I read one more?
[18:23]One more section?
[18:24]I've been honored.
[18:26]Okay.
[18:27]My Al-Anon meeting revelation that my abuse wasn't my fault had slammed me like a tsunami
[18:32]rushing in from outside of my consciousness, but this, this, it washed over me slowly,
[18:38]like a calm rising tide eroding the shoddy foundation of a beachfront mansion
[18:43]that had been built to house my father's pulsing secrets.
[18:47]My relentless work to heal had eaten away at the facade delivering me to this moment.
[18:52]All of the work I had done to heal must have opened my mind's floodgates.
[18:56]Finally, secure enough to face the truth.
[18:58]The house of lies was falling away.
[19:01]And with that, the ground shuttered as each room broke free filling with frothy waves carrying
[19:07]the reality of my exploitation.
[19:09]I tried to fly up into the corner, dissociating like I had done in my bedroom whenever my father
[19:14]abused me as a child, yet the corners kept disappearing as the rooms collapsed around me,
[19:19]freed by my readiness to face the veracity of my childhood.
[19:25]It's so powerful.
[19:26]How do you feel like going back and revisiting these moments?
[19:30]These like, and the collapse moment that we kind of knew was coming all through the book,
[19:34]and then finally like, whoosh, comes.
[19:36]How do you feel?
[19:37]You know, it, I feel as tremendous sense of relief.
[19:41]The book just poured out of me.
[19:42]It really, it took me about three years to write the prologue, which I wrote during my investigation
[19:50]with Janelle.
[19:51]I would work on it in my hometown.
[19:53]And that took three years, you know, but then really once Janelle and I finished our investigation
[20:00]I was just really putting things together.
[20:02]It all just poured right out of me.
[20:04]It reminds me so much of the tremendous work
[20:07]of Melissa Fibos who I love so much
[20:10]in terms of writing and getting, you know,
[20:13]just that the corporeal experience,
[20:17]that the bodily experience of writing
[20:19]and how much we hold.
[20:21]And I do, I see a trainer and I do a lot of stretching
[20:24]and things.
[20:24]And so just even her teaching me that release
[20:27]of what we hold in our fascia
[20:29]and what we hold in our hips and what we hold in our feet.
[20:31]And so all of that is just being very difficult
[20:35]because for so long as that passage mentions, you know,
[20:38]I would just associate, I would go fly out of my body
[20:41]and so learning to stay in my body
[20:44]and then release it in a healthy way
[20:47]instead of just disappearing has been a huge part
[20:50]of that process.
[20:52]And you've become in your professional life
[20:54]just incredibly accomplished.
[20:57]You are a fighter, you fight child trafficking worldwide.
[21:01]You were like a total badass.
[21:03]Talk about your career and how you've turned your trauma
[21:06]into such a forceful professional existence.
[21:11]Thank you.
[21:12]So I am an associate research.
[21:15]I'm sorry, this is a new position for me.
[21:18]An associate research scientist
[21:21]at the Wellesley Centers for Women,
[21:23]which is a research institute at Wellesley College.
[21:26]And the basis of our work here,
[21:28]of all of the work done here is research and action.
[21:32]So it is not to say being an academic, you know,
[21:36]in terms of just doing research
[21:38]and then publishing scholarly research
[21:40]that maybe five or 10 or 40 people are going to read
[21:43]for me, it was really, how do we create scientific knowledge
[21:47]that then does get published in journals,
[21:49]but then can translate to policy and practice.
[21:52]And so that is incredibly important to me.
[21:55]I'm in very honored to say that myself
[21:58]and my mentor and colleague, we are embarking on the first,
[22:02]that I know of, the first national study
[22:05]on familial commercial sexual exploitation
[22:08]in the United States.
[22:09]So we're doing some pilot studying work now
[22:12]and then we're seeking funding for a larger five year study
[22:16]that really will get to not only the victimology,
[22:19]not only to get to victims' experiences,
[22:21]but talking to non-offending family members,
[22:25]talking to traffickers, to buyers,
[22:27]to service providers and to criminal legal system agents,
[22:33]as well, and doing a mapping to really see,
[22:36]how does this happen?
[22:37]I know how this happened now through my experience.
[22:41]I know it anecdotally from the amazing community
[22:47]of survivors that I am a part of.
[22:50]But now I want to, the intention is,
[22:52]and we will create scientific empirical knowledge
[22:56]about how this happens.
[22:58]That's amazing.
[23:00]That's so great.
[23:01]Oh my gosh.
[23:02]Thank you.
[23:03]And can I also just say,
[23:03]I would have been a sociologist no matter what had happened
[23:06]to me, I see the need to find chicken plucker
[23:11]when I'm six years old,
[23:12]like that's my first sociological interview.
[23:16]It's like, I'm just needing to know that truth,
[23:18]that sparked very early in me.
[23:21]And it's just a huge part of who I am.
[23:23]And as I discuss, research has been a huge part
[23:28]of my healing.
[23:28]And so that's for me, that's why it's so,
[23:31]I think everyone's healing path is so individual.
[23:35]And for me, it's just the way my mind works.
[23:37]And so that's what I did.
[23:40]And that's what I continue to do.
[23:42]Oh my gosh.
[23:43]Well, I wish you could go back to the girl
[23:45]and her friend who snuck into the truck
[23:48]and turned on the CV radio and all that.
[23:51]And made that first crackily conversation
[23:54]fast forward to now, if only you could fast forward
[23:58]through some of the heartbreak in the intervening years,
[24:02]but how vindicating.
[24:05]Very much, very much.
[24:06]At the end of the book, you talked about wanting
[24:09]to open a bookstore, a mill girl books.
[24:11]Is that what's going on with that?
[24:13]We're waiting right now.
[24:15]And I don't want to give away too much,
[24:17]but for me, it is a way to continue that legacy of,
[24:25]and not just a bookstore, I do writing workshops
[24:28]in my hometown at the library that was so important to me.
[24:31]And just that continuation of how can I continue that legacy
[24:35]of making books and writing available to children.
[24:40]To children, I could never afford books
[24:42]really when I was a kid.
[24:43]I would, my Judy Bloom every once in a while,
[24:48]but then once my father left and we could,
[24:51]didn't even have enough food to eat,
[24:52]books were not on the table.
[24:54]So for me to be able to provide books for kids
[24:56]who want them, who can't afford them,
[24:59]that is another way that I see,
[25:01]that I can do direct service in my hometown.
[25:05]And that's incredibly, incredibly important to me.
[25:08]So what advice can you give
[25:11]to someone who is going through something
[25:12]that they don't know if they can bear?
[25:14]I think the biggest thing is you're not alone.
[25:17]You might be physically alone
[25:20]because you have been isolated by people around you,
[25:24]by people who are controlling you,
[25:25]like people know exactly what they're doing
[25:29]in terms of that because they know your power
[25:31]and the power of people around you.
[25:34]And so what we always say in our family,
[25:38]in our immediate family, me, my husband and my son,
[25:40]is that on yourself.
[25:42]We're not gamblers.
[25:44]I'm at the same time,
[25:45]as my husband or journalist,
[25:46]myself as an aspiring academic,
[25:49]and now our son has his own entrepreneurial dreams.
[25:54]You know, it's that on yourself.
[25:56]Just know you'll get through it.
[25:57]You might not have the answer right now.
[25:59]You might not even have the answer for 10 years.
[26:01]You might not even have the answer for 30 or 40 or 50 years,
[26:04]but it's there and it will reveal itself to you
[26:08]when things are safe.
[26:10]Oh my gosh, Kate, this happened to me,
[26:13]a memoir.
[26:14]Oh my gosh, congratulations, bravo, and thank you.
[26:19]Thank you so much.
[26:19]I really appreciate it.
[26:20]Thank you.
[26:21]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi,
[26:24]formerly mom's don't have time to read books.
[26:27]If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[26:29]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens,
[26:33]and spread the word.
[26:34]Thanks so much.
[26:35]Oh, and buy the books.