Sarah Spain and Deland McCullough, RUNS IN THE FAMILY: Runs in the Family An Incredible True Story of Football, Fatherhood, and Belonging

[2:05]Zibby Owens: This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibby media dot com, and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. Sarah Spain and Deeland McCullough are the coauthors of Runs in the Family, an incredible true story of football, fatherhood, and belonging. Sarah Spain is an Emmy and Peabody award winning sports journalist, the host of the iHeart Daily women's sports podcast, Good Game with Sarah Spain, and an ESPNW contributor. She has been a jack of all trades in her fourteen years at ESPN as a radio and podcast host, television personality, producer, and writer. Spain is a graduate of Cornell University, where she completed as a hep taathlete and served as co captain of the track and field team. She lives in Chicago with her husband Brad and their three rescue dogs. DeLand McCullough is a celebrated football figure who excelled as both a player and coach. A four year starter and the all time rushing leader at Miami University Ohio, he was inducted into its athletics hall of fame. After he led the NFL in preseason rushing with the Bengals, knee injuries ended his pro career, which included stints with the Eagles and the CFL's Blue Bombers, where he was a 1999 all star nominee. Transitioning to coaching, McCulloch became one of football's premier running back coaches, helping nearly 20 RBs to 1,000 yard seasons. A five time national finalist for top RB coach, he played a key role in the Chiefs Super Bowl fifty four win. An author and part of the team that created the Emmy award winning e 60 feature identity, McCullough resides in Las Vegas, Nevada as running back coach for the Raiders. Welcome, Deland and Sarah. I am so excited to talk to you both about runs in the family, an incredible true story of football, fatherhood, and belonging. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my gosh. What a story. So this story is about so many things, and there is a huge twist that happens, which is in the public domain. But for those listening, I don't know. I did not know what the twist was. And as I was reading it, I kept, like, talking to my kids and being like, okay. I know something's about to happen, but I don't know what it is. And then I was like, oh my gosh, you guys. So, anyway, I was very excited about the whole thing. Congratulations. Why don't you talk about what the book is is about, both of you? Sir, I'll go ahead and Delive, it's your life. So let's let's the story of your life.

[5:03]Deland McCullough: Yeah. I mean well, I mean, it's it's pretty well chronicled the way that Sarah and ESPN, but definitely the way that Sarah captured the essence of everything here in the book. And I was kinda co piloting and just kinda helping provide some guardrails for that. But, I mean, it is what it is. I mean, it's a situation where a great story, I believe, that just talks about perseverance, adversity, obviously, kinda framed up in the you know, with football, this kind of the outlier, kind of the the blanket over the whole top of everything, and just everything that that that happened along way and and some of the things that happened in my life. So, yes, it was hard. It was therapeutic. It was it was tough. Just doing this thing was tough. But I'm a tell you what, the the the product that's out there now, the feedback from not only people who've read it, you know, beyond my family, but I'm telling you, the part that I'm most proud of is how my family and my friends have responded to it. And those were the people who I was most concerned about, to be honest. And they have just completely they've embraced it in this. I I think if they've embraced it, and they know the things that's in there, they know the the players are in it, I think the public will also. Yeah. Dylan,

[6:15]Sarah Spain: Dylan's friend, our mutual friend Skip, brought me this story a handful of years ago when I was working full time at ESPN and gave me a five minute less than five minute synopsis, and I had chills, and I was almost on the brink of tears. And so we did an e 60 feature and a written story about it, and we knew pretty soon after that it needed to be a book. There were so many people clamoring to hear more. And ultimately, it's the story of Deland, a kid who grew up in Youngstown just after the industrial collapse. So a lot of families struggling. His adoptive dad leaves when he's two, so he's sort of doubly rejected by father figures, the parents he never met, his birth parents, and then this adoptive father that leaves too and sort of doesn't realize it, but is struggling from a lot of the feelings that adopted children have about self doubt and worth and identity, but they don't talk about it much. And so he finds his way into football, and it becomes this release and this escape and ends up getting recruited by a handful of people to play college football, including a fellow Youngstonian who had gone on to make it big in the NFL, Sherman Smith, comes to recruit him. They end up hitting it off. He goes to Miami of Ohio, breaks a bunch of records, gets into football, ultimately wants to play, but injuries stop him. So goes to the coaching route and is being mentored by Sherman and others throughout the way, has four kids, which I think, Zibby, you have four kids too. I do. You can understand the feeling of, where did my kid get this from? Why does one kid look like this? Why does one kid have this? Is that all from my wife's side of the family? What's coming from me? I've never met anyone that looks like me or talks like me or shares my blood. And he has that for forty plus years until the laws change. He can find his birth certificate, ultimately find his birth parents. And that's the twist you talk about that's in the public domain, but it's so unbelievable that if we didn't tell you this is real and when we did the ESPN story, we demanded the paternity test just in case to make sure this was real.

[8:04]Zibby Owens: And, yeah, it's just it's a really incredible story. It is a really incredible story. And by the way, even with four biological children, I still don't know where half the stuff came from in them. I'm like, I have no idea. And people are like, oh, are you good at acting too? Like, can you sing? And I'm like, no. I don't I don't know where it comes from. Like Yeah. Kids are born with all these crazy gifts. It's like, who knows? So anyway but your kids are adorable, I saw in the book. At least, you know, they're just so amazing. I feel like this book is really about resilience. Yes. It's about found family and, you know, reunions at the end and, you know, this the big payoff sort of of of going through it. But really, it's about how much you have gotten through in your life. And, Sarah, I love that you take us through it. I love that there's commentary on some of the psychological growth that is happening through the facts and things that I had never thought of before, like how being part of a team in football, like, recreates a family system and just some of these other little nuggets you sprinkle throughout that I found absolutely fascinating. But resilience is at the heart of everything. Hard work, resilience, getting through, being your best. Like, why do you think that that I know that there was a moment in time in high school in the book where, Dylan, you felt like I was just gonna decide I just decided I would work harder. Like, that was just gonna be my way out. I'm just gonna do that. But that is not a natural instinct to the vast majority of of people out there. So tell me about just how you think you get through stuff so well. Like, why? How? How can we bottle this?

[9:43]Deland McCullough: Yeah. I I wish I could give it to you cleanly, but, you know, for me, it was just the environment that I was in. I think some of what my goals were. And although I may not be able to realize them on the surface at that moment, it's just like a switch flipped in my mind to say, you know what? I may not be the biggest, strongest, fastest, smartest, whatever, but I'm gonna make a name for myself off of how I work. And the thing with that, and I always tell them, I always talk to my players about this. I said, that hard work and just that drive to say, you know what? I'm gonna be noticed as somebody who never gives up and works hard, so on and so forth. It unlocked a talent that I had in football. Because you couldn't have said, but this guy's really talented maybe when I sophomore, freshman year, whatever. But junior year junior year was looking a little bit better. But with my senior year, it was like, wow. This guy's really, really good. But it was that I don't know if that would have been realized if I didn't work the way I did. So there's a lot of sub lessons in there that I'm excited about, a ton of them. But as you asked about resilience, that's just what I I decided to do and say, you know what? I'm a flip the switch. I'm gonna be a person that, at least on the field, and as I go around in my community, the guys on my team, can look up to me and say, this guy's gonna work hard and give a 100% all the time.

[10:59]Zibby Owens: Oh my gosh. I love that. What about in the face of some of these obstacles? I mean, there's one piece of the story where we go in-depth into your childhood and some of the abuse that you went through, and there's one scene where your mom pulls you in at, like, three in the morning in between you and and Frank and is like, you know, stand here. And just my heart broke for you. But then there are things that were out of your control. I mean, not that that wasn't out of your control. Was also out of your control. But, you know, when you had your knee injury and the compound fracture and then the ACL on the other side, it just, like, kept going. I'm like, oh, no. Like, I thought that we were about to have this big, like, you know, NFL payoff story here, and yet things kept setting you back. How do you not go into, like, a dark place? Like, can't the universe give me a break type of thing? Well, I mean, I looked at it like the universe was balancing some things out to a degree too because there's a lot of things in the book that that were self inflicted.

[12:02]Deland McCullough: You know? So it's almost like, hey, it was that give and take of the universe. But for me, I think when we using, you know, the universe is that thing that's out there. I think that ultimately has seen what my where my heart was and that I wanted to do really great things on the field. I wanna be a good person. I wanna represent the right things, and I think it just all balanced itself out. But it was tough during those times because I'm sitting up saying, wow. You know, every step, it was I think I would accomplish something, and then I would just get knocked back down. Mhmm. Had this great college career. Like, wow. I'm about to get get drafted. Everybody tell me to get drafted. Next thing you know, I'm undrafted. I'm the last guy on the debt chart going to the next place. So every step along the way, all the way up through coaching, the way to here. But those are the things that fuel me. You know? I've I've I've still got the same fuel, the same fire that I had when I was in the sixth grade or when I was in the ninth grade or when I was in the twelfth grade or when I was a freshman at Miami or when I was a rookie at the Bengals, so on and so forth. So those are things that just drive me. I was very upset with the Bengals, by the way, for calling you and then not I was like, how could they do that? That's so mean. What a tease. What a tease. Zivia, I have to say that I found that too while doing interviews for the book and while talking to him and all of his family members. There were moments where I think I would have been resentful.

[13:19]Sarah Spain: You know, there's the anecdote in there about his teacher who helps him go to prom and pays for the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The tux and the car rental and the boutonniere and the dinner, and Dylan wasn't gonna go. He simply couldn't afford it. And to have a teacher step in, instead of being frustrated that he couldn't just be like most of the other kids and have things come easy, he felt like it was a gift. He was like, oh, the universe keeps handing me people who are willing to help. And there were so many people in Youngstown at that time that did get into trouble and friends of his that got into pretty serious trouble. And he felt like along the way, there were folks helping him stay out of trouble, that saw something in him that was great. And, you know, I read probably nine books maybe as research for this book because I really wanted to understand all the different ways that adoption can impact people. I wanted to understand ending generational cycles of trauma. I wanted to understand what we actually get from DNA versus what we get from family systems and emotional DNA and the things that are passed on via lessons and messaging. And as you point out, I put a lot of that in the book because I want people to read it to not only be like, oh, cool, Deland story, but also, wow. Hey. I can choose in my family what I wanna take with me to the next generation and what I want to end with me, what I don't think serves me and the people coming after, and even heal backwards. And so in doing all that research, it really struck me that some of the very things that Dylan struggled with as a youngster also were the drivers for his success. The self doubt, the belief that other people didn't believe he could be great was what drove him to work harder and be determined. And so while it was hard for him because he felt like people didn't believe in him, it was actually also what com completely helped him make it to where he is now, a Super Bowl winning coach and a fantastic dad. But so many people, I think, don't react to trauma that way. They repeat it, or they end up becoming the thing that they saw. Mhmm. And so the most remarkable part of Dylan's story, I think, is how he decided, I don't wanna be like the father figures who have not taken responsibility. I don't wanna be like the men in my life who were abusive or didn't stick around and how he's become this incredible dad and father to all the kids that he coaches and men that he coaches in the same way. It's just really impressive.

[15:33]Zibby Owens: You're like a mensch. It's great.

[15:36]Sarah Spain: You know what that is, Dylan? No. I don't.

[15:40]Deland McCullough: That's why I read you can't see in my hand. Raised my hand. I'm like, what's that? Excuse me. What? Mensch? He is a, like, a really good guy. Just like a really good guy. Really, especially I'm a look that one up. Okay. I'm a look that one up.

[15:55]Zibby Owens: So, Sarah, when you were delving into the story, how did you decide? And, Dylan, how did you, you know, collaborate on this? And how much of what to include? Like, there's so much, and there's so much about the family and your older brother and your mom and the neighborhood and then, like, the the trends in in, you know, what made Youngstown what it was and, you know, societal trends and your and AC and what have I mean, there was just so much. We we really went there. Like, was it to mostly to contrast with

[16:33]Sarah Spain: like, just tell me about decision making in terms of I'll tell you about my decision making and then Dylan could step in and be like, and here's why we didn't include some stuff and or here's what we did think was worth keeping. So, you know, for me, partly when a story begins in in the seventies, for people reading it who weren't around then, I like to set the place. And I also felt like Youngstown was almost like another parent for Dylan. There was such an impact on him and his brother and his family based on what was going on in the city at that time and how different things would have been if they had lived so many other places and gone through the same things. And I think Delen says from the very beginning, I really didn't ask a lot of questions about where I came from because everybody was dealing with some big stuff. Mhmm. People were struggling to pay bills. His mom was constantly working to try to keep them having a phone or heat or electricity. So the idea of let me sit around and navel gaze about who my birth parents are is not the same as maybe a very privileged kid who's being handed everything and wants to know more. Right? And so I thought it was really important to set the scene for what the people around him were doing and also why his adopted mom made the best choices that she could in a really difficult time. But I think Adele is a character for some people where they'll have issues with some of the things that she brings into the house, but ultimately, she is working so hard to pay for their education, to show them the benefit of hard work, to teach them how to make choices for themselves. And God will show you, you know, two choices, how to be good and bad, you get to choose. And Dylan bringing that throughout his whole life. And so I think understanding just how tough it was in Youngstown was really necessary. Yep. And then to my earlier point, I think the more detail you can give, the more relatable something is. People often think the opposite. Be really vague, and everyone will know. The more detail you provide, the more other people see themselves in this. And I felt like reading all those books and educating myself, I was like, I'm so lucky I get to learn all this. Mhmm. And how different would the world be if other people knew this about messaging and family systems, about the emotional DNA they carry, about epigenetics and how your DNA can actually be influenced so deeply by the the atmosphere that you're in and and the influence of everyone from your family to the town you're in. And so, for me, I wanted to include all that to really tell a rich story of his life and not have it be played football, found his dad. Woah, we knew him. You know, like, really have it be about, especially to me, adoption and and the chosen family and chosen parenthood and the choices we all make. Today's episode is sponsored by

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[21:10]Zibby Owens: This

[21:40]Zibby Owens: There was a moment when your mom was like when when I think it was after Frank left. Yeah. I think it was after Frank left. It doesn't matter. Anyway, and you were talking about a father figure, and she was like, look. Like, the heavenly father is your father. Like, it's okay. You're always gonna have a father, and he's always gonna be up there for you. So, like, let's just move on. I feel like I could feel her love and the the strength of her love in the descriptions. Like, I felt no judgment at all. Like, what came through in the book was, like, just the sacrifices she was willing to make and how she was clearly doing her best. And then, you know, I felt kind of sorry for her at the end when she's like when she had the hardest time sort of coming to terms with the fact that there is this new introduction of another sort of mother figure in your life. How is that going, by the way?

[22:30]Deland McCullough: Yes. Everything is going good with that. Know? And just like as you know, just to go backwards, to to go forward, you know, as you as I go back and I think about, you know, the fact that I wanted a father so bad Mhmm. You know, that I was, you know, just looking for that father figure. And and she knew that. She knew that that was something that she really couldn't do. She couldn't beat, you know, me and my brother's father. Mhmm. That that even drove her even more. And you go you get to see, Sarah did a great job of laying out her background of why she kept giving so many opportunities. She was given opportunities because she thought she could fix this person. She wanted to there was there was, like, all these different prongs of things that she was trying to accomplish by whipping these guys into shape and saying, look, I want you to be a man for our for our family. I want you to be a good husband to me. I want you to be a good father to my sons, all these different things. So it wasn't her thought process was noble for sure. You know, ultimately, I got to a point where I didn't feel as though I needed that, and I was getting it from other people, like that father figure from whether it be from coaches and different things like that. So I had to mature on on that level. But just like you said earlier, I quickly found out examples of what I wanted to be and what I didn't wanna be. And I said, okay. And that was a tough part I think for my mom is that she, you know, consistently beat herself up about what was around this because now she has this this 360 degree view. She could see everything. And and I'm telling her, no, the exact opposite. I said, it's all good. Mhmm. You know? I said, no. I was messing with her a couple weeks ago. I said, now if I was writing this book from jail, maybe you should be feeling that way. Yeah. Exactly. I was like, hey. This is the memoirs of an inmate. I said, that's the difference. I said, that's not the case. I said, that's not the case. Me and Damon turned out

[24:28]Zibby Owens: as well as you could under that circumstance, even better than we did the women. Belief. It's Sarah's next book will be Memoirs of an Inmate. She won't work out. I just think this is so amazing. I mean, how does it feel to have your whole life? I mean, this this is a deeper dive than, like, most incredibly high profile people get. Wait. This is, like, more than, like, I feel like a presidential biography. This is so much detail. Like, how do you feel having it out there?

[24:58]Deland McCullough: Well, we're see here in a second. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's why I've let them I've I've shared it with enough people whose opinions I value and just who would you know, friends of mine who would just tell me, hey, man. This is this or this or that. And I'm talking about guys who don't have to suck up and say, oh, this is no. They told me how how it was and every response I've got has been really, really positive. And, like, the epigenetics and the emotional. I mean, people are reading it and saying, I see myself in this. I see my how I was raised in this. Yes, I'm giving some specific stories that may not fit other people, but the bottom line is those underlying themes are universal. Yep. You know? Now, yeah, there's some specific things that it talks about in there and, you know, and and ironically, I I thought some family members, even some friends would bring those pieces up specific Mhmm. Because it seemed like I was I'm, like, over dwelling on those parts. And none of them even said anything about that. Wow. They they seem to capture the whole the essence of everything beyond,

[26:03]Sarah Spain: oh, here's your girlfriend from college or whatever. Nobody said it. Nobody really even said anything about it. Yeah. Dylan was really worried about his ex girlfriends. And I was like I I was like, respect to your wife. You have a beautiful family and several children together, and you've built something great. I think she's okay if we mentioned that at one point, dated someone else. We all we all did it before we met our spouse. No. I you know, it was really important to me to respect all of his family members and to tell the story in a very honest way Mhmm. But to not be salacious or seek out things that were unnecessary just to put in Yeah. If they didn't help tell the the story. And, you know, I pride myself on my empathy in life, and I think it really came into play in telling the story as how do I put myself in the position of each person here and find what they wanted, why they did what they did, even Frank. Yep. Even someone who is a pretty villainous character and a guy who brought a lot of pain to a lot of people. I tried to understand, like, when he went into jail and came out, what happened in there? Yeah. And when he came out and Adele tried to convince him, you're a talented dude. Go find some work. Like, here's the things we can work on together and build up his confidence. He couldn't get past some of the drugs and abuse stuff. And, you know, abuse is usually about control. It's not usually about anger. And so what had happened to him? And I think that's also the story is who you are is what happened before you Mhmm. To you and because of you. And so how do all those things contribute to a life and what you wanna pass on and don't? And I guarantee you, there were things that happened to Frank, he's passed, I never got to speak to him, that made him who he was. And that that doesn't excuse what he did. But I want I wanted to bring that perspective to everybody in the book because it really doesn't serve people to read a book where everybody is flat and then the main character, quote unquote, is super fleshed out and the hero of everything. You need to understand that, you know, Dylan had to work through some tough stuff to come out on the other side too. Well, it was chilling that you mentioned that they had to they closed that prison soon after he left because it was, like, so bad. Yeah. And that was even the the quality of going on in there. Like, if it could be I mean, how often are we closing prisons? Ugh. Now we're then right for the for the conditions. So what did he go through in there, and why did he come out having lost the part of him that maybe Adele first loved? So gosh.

[28:21]Zibby Owens: Oh my goodness. So you've taken all of your life experience, and now you shape the careers of other young men and athletes and everything in a sport that is highly controversial in terms of safety for especially for those kids. How do you feel about that, especially with your own, like, physical manifestations of your football career? And what do you say to kids just starting out? And what about your own kids? Are you are do are they gonna all play football? Like, where you feel that? They all play football games? They got some ballers. They

[28:56]Deland McCullough: all they all they all play. They all play. Okay. They all play. So, I mean, you know, I don't I'm not advocating or not football. I mean, you know, football is a sport, and the guys enjoy it. And and I know it was interesting. I was talking with with my dad the other day and just talking about how football brought us together. Mhmm. I think about I mean, just think about the the levels that if I didn't play football, I'd have never met my dad in advance. If I didn't play football, would I have been at USC? There's there's so many things that link that the football link is involved there. For me, even with my own family, the the the life that I've built. I tell my kids, I said football gave us the life that we have. Mhmm. You know? So I definitely don't have any animus towards football. Not not not that that's what you were implying. But as it relates to the guys who I just dealt with and met with earlier today, I mean, that those are unique and long life lasting long lasting relationships that would not have been, you know, possible, you know, be it not through football. So enjoy it, love it, the relationships, the building of young men, you know. Yes. We have a hour and a half of football meetings, probably twenty five minutes of it, which I'm all life. You know? So I know my dad used to say this at one point in time. He said, you know, football and coaching is a ministry because you get that opportunity to impact these guys in a way that you normally wouldn't wouldn't have that opportunity to. So it's been, you know, especially for something I wasn't initially interested in. I I wasn't interested in being a coach. Mhmm. You know? But I know I wanted to work with this type of environment. Yeah. And, yes, you get the full scan of people, not that everybody grew up like I grew up with different things like that. But football and the lessons of it are universal. So it's all good.

[30:46]Zibby Owens: Yeah. I I love your pivot, by the way, to being a school principal in the middle there for a while. I was like, where where is okay. Look at this. Sorry. I cut you off. Sorry. Wanting to work with kids and help kids that grow up like him, and it eventually led him back to football. But I kind of love that that wasn't

[31:01]Sarah Spain: the whole goal the whole time. Yep. That's very one note to just be a football guy. But the idea that he didn't even wanna be a part of football and wanted to help in so many other meaningful ways, I think, influenced also the way he coaches, which is how he's been able to move up the ranks because of his approach. I just have to say about football. You know, I've been at ESPN for almost fifteen years, and I've covered a lot of football and talked about a lot of football. And it is a really fascinating understanding of circumstance because there are people who will not live a privileged life, will will not experience some of the best parts of life without finding their way out of where they are through football. Yep. And so the dangers feel different to somebody who is looking to unlock a different life using the sport than they might to somebody who's speaking from a privileged position and understands the dangers of CTE and some of the other things associated with the sport. And so for me, personally, one of the best parts of my job has always been to learn how to see the world through other people's eyes and to empathize and to understand perspectives different than mine. Mhmm. And so while I fully understand how scary it can be to send a kid into football, and I fully understand the dangers that are inherent, you also do look at the incredible relationships and benefits and lessons and the resilience that Dylan figured out and found. And it's harder to be as cut and dried about it than you might think. My son plays football. He's a a running back. He's a junior in Alright. Yeah. There we go. Yeah. Does it run-in the family? Do you got wheels, Debbie? That's

[32:37]Zibby Owens: what I'm talking about with these things that come out of nowhere that these gambling kids somewhere. Yeah. Not not me. But, yeah, I mean, this is always a source of debate. Right? You know, people, for to me, are always like, he let your son play football? And meanwhile, not in this room, but in in another room in our house, my husband is such a football fan that we have every team of every helmet on our Nice. On our bookshelves instead of books. So he gets that room, and I can Nice. Oh, what a nice balance. A room full of books right next to a room full of football helmets. That sounds like my house. Yeah. Okay. So what is for both of you, I'd like you to close with, like, some advice. So maybe advice to aspiring athletes or people who feel like there's something really in their way right now, and they have to push through it because, Dylan, you have pushed through so much stuff. And, Sarah, like, the perseverance to get the story written and out there and how many years it took and all of that. Like, give us some parting wisdom here.

[33:36]Sarah Spain: Let's go, coach. Let's hear it. Oh, shoot. Locker room speech.

[33:40]Deland McCullough: Yeah. I I I don't know. But no. I mean, what I tell guys is don't let anybody tell you what you can't be, you know, because although it may not manifest itself in specifically what you're doing right there, the the tools, the work ethic, the relationships, all of the the skills that you're building in that, it still can manifest into success and other things. So I gotta have those conversations with guys because I'm sitting here with guys who are in college or in high school who think they're going to to college. And guys in college who think they're going pro. With guys who are in pro who think I'm gonna be a a hall of famer. So you have to have that balance, you know, and letting them know, although you're not being a dream killer by any stretch, if anything, I think I'm being an expansion of that dream so it's not so linear. It's like, hey. There's other things that I can do. So those are the things for me. I just say, hey. Look. Don't let anybody tell you, including me. And I make a point not to tell people what they can't do. Yeah. That's one thing. You're a book author now. Who would have told you yeah. Ain't no no way I would have been told that. Could tell you that.

[34:47]Sarah Spain: Yeah. I mean, my anecdote from this is is pretty telling for me. I'm a confident person. I don't think I shy away from trying things and putting myself out there. But I have, at times, put restrictions on myself that were artificial and were about me thinking I couldn't do something. And one of them was I've always wanted to write a book. And yet, when I brought this story to ESPN to do the e 60, which is about a twenty five minute TV feature, they said, oh, we definitely need a written story along with this. And you're a writer. Was like, yep. And then I almost suggested one of my ESPN colleagues to do it because I hadn't done a long form feature before. I've done a lot of writing, but not the super long form investigative, do all the interviews and and that. And I was like, well, I'm gonna do it. And then I won this incredible Dan Jenkins medal for sports writing, like, story of the year. And then I got a book offer. And now we've written a book, and so far, it's getting rave reviews. And I'm like, why did I almost stop myself from that? I'm a and and I'm a professional writer, and I almost stopped myself. You know what I mean? It wasn't even like a big leap. It was just something I hadn't done before. And I recognize in myself a lot of control issues. I wanna be in control of everything. And I get really nervous the first time I do anything because I don't know what what it's gonna be. And then once I've done it once, I'm never nervous again. Like, the first time I did TV, I was nervous. I have not been nervous on TV once since I've you know? And so for me, it's all about, like, what does it look like to do that thing? Mhmm. And am I ready to? And then once I do it, I'm like, oh, I could I could do it all along. And so my advice for people, especially women, I think, where we're conditioned not to take risks and conditioned to limit ourselves and not dream too big is to dream really, really big. Take way bigger swings. Be willing to fail if that's what it takes to figure out where your edge is because I keep pushing and haven't found it yet. I'm still thriving at these things that I wondered if I could do. And so I think a lot of us do that to ourselves unnecessarily.

[36:36]Zibby Owens: I think your next collaboration might have to be Dylan writing your story. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. I don't know I don't know if we're ready for that problem. Gotta use those high SAT scores there and put it all to work. Dylan

[36:48]Sarah Spain: sends me edits via text, so I don't think he's quite ready to do the actual writing side of a book in in the in the Scrivener document and all the

[36:58]Zibby Owens: No way. Not at all. You never know. Well, the two of you make a very, very powerful team and such a compelling book. And I am so excited to see this in the world and where it goes and when it's gonna be a feature film, by the way. Is that happening? That's We're working on it. Okay. Good. Mhmm. Yeah. Good. Good. Yeah. Excellent. Can't wait to watch that when it comes out. Yeah. Thank you so much for having us and and for reading it. We appreciate it. Oh, it's my pleasure. I got so much out of it. I really did. Bye very much. Thank you. Bye. Yep. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Take care. You, Lynn. Thanks a lot. I'll see you later. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

[38:24]Zibby Owens: This summer, JBL is on a mission to help you tune in to what you love.