Marie Benedict & Courtney Sheinmel, THE SECRETS OF LOVELACE ACADEMY

[1:36]Zibby Owens: Hi. This is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to. Stay in the know, get insider insights, and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com, and follow me on Instagram at zibby owens. Courtney Scheinmel and Marie Benedict are coauthors of The Secrets of Lovelace Academy. Marie Benedict is a lawyer with more than ten years of experience as a litigator at two of the country's premier law firms. She found her calling unearthing the hidden historical stories of women. Her mission is to excavate from the past the most important complex and fascinating women of history and bring them into the light of present day where readers can finally perceive the breadth of their contributions as well as the insights they bring to modern day issues. Marie is the author of many books for adults including the New York Times bestseller, The First Ladies. The Secrets of Lovelace Academy written with Courtney Scheinmel is her first book for kids. Courtney Scheinmel is a chocolate lover, mac and cheese expert, mom to Archer, and the author of nearly 30 books for kids and teens, including the acclaimed Stella Bats and My Pet Slime series for young readers. Her book, She Persisted, Helen Keller, was part of Chelsea Clinton's She Persisted series. Courtney received a national scholastic educator award for her work as a writing instructor at the nonprofit Writopia Lab. And by the way, she contributed an essay to my anthology on being Jewish now. Visit her online at courtneyshinemail.com. Welcome back to Marie Benedict and to Courtney Shinemel who have both been parts of other projects that I've featured on the show from on being Jewish now to many of books of Marie's. Anyway, it's so great that the two of you have teamed up. I was so excited when I saw your names together on a book, The Secrets of Lovelace Academy. Welcome, first of all. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

[3:54]Marie Benedict: It's a joy. And how how did you two team up? Well, we were set up by our agent who is a matchmaker of sorts. And she I she had long been sending me books of Marie's because I loved them. And then she called one day, and I think she spoke to Marie first before she spoke to me. I don't know. But she called me and said, I have either someone I I want you to meet. I think you guys can do something together. So it was it was a setup. It was it was kind of like a blind date, an author. It was a great blind date, you know? Was a really good blind date. Was this a Zoom date or you went for coffee? What happened? It was Zoom. I don't know if it was Zoom or on the phone, but we don't live in the same city. So it was not in person. It was a virtual We started dating virtually first.

[4:47]Courtney Sheinmel: Yes. And then in person. And I mean, Laura, she saw you know, Laura, you know, I know you know Laura Lizzie. You know, she had had in her mind that, you know, obviously, knows both of us, knows our work intimately, maybe all too well. And she saw just the two of us as a great working relationship, but then also the potential for us to do something really fun. And I had been asked many times by readers if I would ever adapt any of my books for younger audiences. And I really struggled with that idea because, you know, I'm not an expert in the in the with the world of younger readers like Courtney is, but I knew that younger readers definitely didn't want to read about women in their thirties and forties, which is generally the age not always. Sometimes I have younger, you know, younger heroines, but they it's over a period of time. It's not their jam. And Courtney and I just started talking and got into our heads that maybe we would do something with some of some or one of my women. We had a lot of bad ideas to start. A lot of time travel, Sippy. A lot of time travel, like twins

[5:58]Marie Benedict: and Not

[6:00]Courtney Sheinmel: very good. Yeah. But then I think, like, Lovelace kind Lovelace Academy kind of came out on its own as sort of a you know, for people who haven't read the book or don't know what it's about, Lovelace Academy is this. It's the quintessential kind of English boarding school that you think of when you think of, like, an Eton or any of these classic institutions, but for girls at a time period when girls were completely let out of the educational mix. I mean, formal education really wasn't even really a thing, until pretty recently. And for girls, if you were lucky enough to get educated, it was just pretty much about what would service your family or service if you were lucky enough to be wealthy, service you as a hostess and as a, you know, a hostess in a home situation. So I don't know. We just started thinking what if. Right? What if there was a place where bright girls could actually get a real education, something like what young men were starting to get at a place like Eton.

[7:03]Marie Benedict: Do you think We for knew which heroine that Marie has written about that we wanted to start with in terms of who would be wouldn't be the center of our book, but would be somebody that would be in our book. And that was Mileva Einstein, who was Albert Einstein's first wife, who was a brilliant, brilliant scientist on her own and has been lost to history. Although Marie has written extensively about her, so she's not as lost to history as she was. There is an incredible novel, The Other Einstein, that really does celebrate Mileva and tell her story. But, you know, there is a school of thought, a very deep and credentialed school of thought that she contributed to her husband's work in really significant ways. It tracks with what her background was and her education level and how brilliant she was. She was a mathematician and she never got any credit as women often still don't, but specifically didn't in her time. So we knew she wanted, we wanted her to be in our story. We weren't sure who our main character was for a while, but we knew that she would be meeting up with Mileva. I feel like I'm in my Einstein era because I'm also

[8:20]Zibby Owens: I have yearbook, of course. And then I was reading a couple weeks ago, my son started reading Stuart Gibbs's Charlie Thorne books. Have you ever read any of those about and the last equation, which starts on Einstein's deathbed and how he, like, puts his equations in the fire.

[8:38]Marie Benedict: It's for, like, middle grade. You guys should read it. You should do actually do an event with Stuart Gibbs. I I know Stu well because we shared a babysitter. His nanny or his kids moved to New York and was my son's first nanny. So Oh, small world. It's a very small world. But I but I have a five year old, so we haven't quite gotten to Stu's books yet, but I actually have a few on the shelf waiting for him. This is, like, past the

[9:02]Zibby Owens: the the other ones. This is past the spices. It's a little bit older. They're longer. Anyway, I don't mean to go off on it. But anyway I love this book. I have two boys, and we have spent quite a lot quite a lot of time.

[9:15]Zibby Owens: And I feel like Sarah Malinowski introduced me to him and to Laura, your agent, which is how I feel like this all comes together anyway. Well, Sarah introduced who's my one of my closest friends introduced me to my agent as well. Yeah. Talk about matchmaking here. I mean, that's like that's a crazy full circle there. I might maybe I shouldn't even admit this, but I sent my original proposal for moms don't have time to read books, the book, to Laura, and she turned me down and was not my agent. Come on. She did not. She did. I did. Yeah. I think now she feels bad a little bit. Probably No. Kidding. Regret that one. I mean, I think I think We love you, Laura. You have, like, a wonderful relationship. I shouldn't say she feels bad. She doesn't feel bad. I just mean, like She probably does. We're now like friends. You know? We we she's been so supportive in so many other ways. And to her credit, the book was not a good idea at that time anyway. So but she was very helpful in in the beginning. So I have a lot of gratitude to her. That's, I mean, to me that would regret if I were Laura Jail. But anyway, that's neither here nor here here. Anyway, so back to the book. So Melena is making a cameo. That's all you knew at the beginning. That's right. And she'd be in it in some capacity. Yes. And then I think

[10:26]Marie Benedict: at the beginning we thought she would be a larger part. Then as we realized, the audience we're writing for and as Marie was saying before, not wanting to center a story for middle grade readers on someone in her 30s, even though I frankly think women in their 30s, 40s, 50s are the most interesting You people there don't necessarily realize that when you're 10 years old. No.

[10:51]Zibby Owens: Not interesting. 10 year olds just want to read about 12 year olds. Right. The

[10:56]Marie Benedict: next And the other thing we felt like we knew that Mileva came to the table with a lot of struggle and we knew that whoever our main character was needed to have a story of her own that would make you root for her but was different from the struggles. So we were working on what that story could be and how this girl who we named Lainey could, why she would be at Lovelace Academy and which is a very school for very privileged people and how she ended up there and what her her journey was. I mean, it was an interesting way to take a look at

[11:32]Courtney Sheinmel: middle school age girls in a different time period so that younger readers could see in some ways how far we've come, not in all ways, and then give them an opportunity to intersect with a historical woman that that really did pull herself up by her bootstraps and do incredible things but whose stories we don't know. And to leave the door open for other Lovelace Academy girls who come down the pike to intersect with the stories of other historical women and kind of explore the evolution of girls' education, bright young girls who are trying to achieve in a in different time periods, but time periods that are definitely not encouraging of that. And struggling with things that girls today are still struggling with, you know? I mean, very relatable things.

[12:27]Marie Benedict: One of the things that we hope readers take from it too is is the idea of looking at a story like this that's set in nineteen o five and how far we've come and also how far we have not come. Yeah. And there are a lot of things that in the story that are not, you know, not just about, you know, middle school politics, but about the world at large and where women fit in in the world and girls fit in in the world at large that have not changed to the extent that

[12:58]Zibby Owens: we believe they should. Right. So as part of the mission of the this sounds like it's gonna be a series now, which is brilliant, of course. I should you know? Is part of the mission empowering today's girls to continue sort of fighting for change and being amazing?

[13:13]Marie Benedict: Yeah. I mean, not to be, like, super heavy handed or preachy about it, but certainly, we hope that is what you take away from it after you read it, that there's more work to be done and the work continues with all of us. And one of the things that I think was interesting for us in terms of coming to the story was when we started out and we had in one in the time travel era of thinking about this book. And we were both mothers of sons. And we were like, oh, you know, it'll be a boy and a girl. And they go help. They go back in their time machine and help Malayeva Einstein. And it took us a moment to realize we didn't need a boy main character for the story to reach our sons and other boys and to be an important story and an appealing story to our boys and other boys. And I think that was like a big, you know, to borrow a phrase from Oprah, moment for us when we're like, oh, wait, they can read about Lainie and just Lainie and Mileva, and it's still a valuable story even if they're boys. And so that was like part of our journey as well in seeing how we need to sort of change the world and also change our approach to story.

[14:24]Courtney Sheinmel: You learned so much about yourself as you're crafting, you know, crafting these worlds and your own preconceptions about what is an appealing story, what should be an appealing story, how to reach people. But, yeah, as Courtney said, it's not meant to be heavy handed. It's it's historical adventure is really what it is that that has some of these layers in it, but that hopefully there are some takeaways. And I think, you know, we know I'm not saying we're all the same age because I'm older than you ladies. But, you know, we grew up in an era when when things were changing, and I think a lot of younger kids today are that much more removed from that. And I think getting to look at the past through the lens of somebody who's more closer in age to them to actually see the scope of those changes is really important because, you know, we live in a time when things may you know, could return to where they were. And it's important for us to understand from whence we came so we don't head back that direction. So true. Oh my gosh. So

[15:33]Zibby Owens: how did you two write this together? I have never written with anyone else, and I am endlessly fascinated with how this process works. How did you do it? How did you make sure you had the same voice? And, like, how did how did you do it? Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Summer always makes me rethink what I'm reaching for every day. Lighter fabrics, better materials, pieces that just feel good the moment you put them on and look effortless. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still easy. Quince has beautiful everyday pieces like 100% European linen pants, dresses, and tops with styles starting at $32. Their denim is soft and easy to wear. I wear my jean jacket all the time. And their organic cotton sweaters are perfect for layering on cool summer nights. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince has really become a destination for elevated essentials across home, kitchen, bedding, and beyond, making it easy to bring a more premium feel into everyday life. Addition to my jean jacket, I recently got a white tank top dress with a beautiful cotton skirt that is absolutely gorgeous, and I can't wait for it to be warm enough so I can wear it every day, but it has been a cool spring. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com/zippy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quince.com/zibi for free shipping and three hundred and sixty five day returns. Quince.com/zibi.

[18:34]Courtney Sheinmel: Well, we nothing makes not support me on that. Thank you very much. Because she has she's the best. I've done it before. So this was not my first But co writing

[18:44]Marie Benedict: I feel like if you're co writing, one of the most important things is, like, you can't be too in love with any of your own sentences that if your co writer writes over them or, you know, gets rid of them completely. You you you can't it can't be the thing that you're too attached to. But we would write and pass back and forth. And so it became not my voice and not Marie's voice, but a voice that was like a you know, almost a third person who was in the room with us. And and therefore could be pretty it could be uniform throughout the book. And we didn't really take anything personally or at least, you know, didn't tell each other if we were taking anything personally if You can reveal it now. Yeah. Exactly. I really got upset when you changed that. But I think that's, like, sort of the deal you make when you get into it as a coauthor that you're okay with someone changing your work because it's not your work. It's your work together. So it's it's a different animal entirely.

[19:42]Courtney Sheinmel: I I think too, knowing that you start out with the same goals, the same desire to to tell the best story that you can, to honor the historical women and the and the characters you're creating. You have to surrender your ego. Like Courtney said, like, can't be in love too much in love with any part of it. But, you know, knowing how that Courtney had the same exact goals as me, that, you know, we really wanted to create a world that that could really inspire and engage readers and and and very, very much love the same themes, it gives you that sense of I I'm not in love with my sentence because you probably know what a better sentence is. Right? Or it's not just, as Courtney said, just my work or your work. It's our work together. But I will say Courtney is the master here. I mean, I this is not my

[20:38]Marie Benedict: time period. These are not my well, not my time period. These these are my No. No. No. No. No. This is my time. This is an encyclopedia. If you wanna know anything about anything in history or any person or what they were wearing in, I don't know, Switzerland in eighteen o four, she will tell you. Like, she knows everything.

[20:58]Courtney Sheinmel: It is a problem. I mean, I do harbor a lot of arcane facts in my head, and it was so fun to be able to pull them out and be like, oh, you wanna know how they would go to the bathroom?

[21:08]Marie Benedict: Absolutely. I know how that happens. Yeah. I was just like, I would write, like, a part of a chapter and then leave these like blank spaces and like in parentheses, like, you fill in whatever makes sense here. Then it would come back with just like, first of all, all of my sentences would be vastly improved, but then come back with details that in I could have spent a month researching and I never would have gotten that kind of detail and authenticity. So I highly recommend if you're doing historical fiction to write a book with Marie Benedict because there's kind of no other way to do it. You are too kind. Thank you. But and it it's wonderful to employ all that arcane knowledge in a variety of ways. I mean,

[21:52]Zibby Owens: it is funny. You but you file away in there, you know? I know. I I feel like I have, like, some crazy memory now for book covers or book characters or whatever, but then ask me about something totally that I should remember either historically or my own life or and it's gone. It's like, why? I I ran out of room for all these other things. Like, I pushed it out. The files are overstuffed.

[22:16]Courtney Sheinmel: You do have to do pruning from time to time. I do think, you know, bathroom habits of the 18 and nineteen hundreds might be something that I could groom. I feel like it's out Now you for put them

[22:28]Zibby Owens: to use, you know, so it's fine. It's fine. They're They're done. So which historical characters are you toying with including in future books? We haven't said yet. We haven't said, I don't know if we're allowed to say. I I would could we say

[22:41]Courtney Sheinmel: scientists?

[22:42]Zibby Owens: Okay. Scientists. I mean, I think, know,

[22:46]Marie Benedict: you can, if you looked at Marie's catalog adult work, would get some first. There's some supreme hints. Okay. Okay. When you think about Lovelace Academy

[22:57]Courtney Sheinmel: Mhmm. The kinds of girls that go there, the sorts of brilliance they have, and how their world might intersect with another. Because there's a secret in Lovelace Academy because it's not just a school. It's also a place where women, adult women who have a variety of accomplishments are being fostered and supported and encouraged. So, yeah, let's we could leave it at that maybe. Yeah. That's good. There's lots of opportunities though for for the Lovelace girls to to intersect and bound out into the world.

[23:34]Zibby Owens: So for parents who are you know, have kids who are interested or this age range or whatever, who is the right type of reader for this book? Like, what should they know when they're like, this book versus the other ones, and I don't know. Are kids reading fantasy? Like, what should I get them or graphic novels? Like, it's it can feel overwhelming. So what's the

[23:55]Marie Benedict: what's the sweet spot for the book? Well, it's not a graphic novel, and it's not a fantasy, but it is, like, it is an adventure story. It is I think it's a really ambitious, big story about a young girl's journey to figuring out where she comes from and where she's going and her place in the world. Coming from tragedy and writing her own story and understanding where you come from doesn't define who you are. So I think that and then also you can and that way, like, and that you can make your mark and making your mark on the world and being there for other people in a lot of ways is how we define ourselves. We are not islands. We're a species that is very community oriented. I think we are when we are at our best. And so I would say like, the reader for this book, if all you wanna do is read, if you're a reader who loves graphic novels, this is probably not your story, But if you're someone who's who's interested in in story and and finding yourself in books, this you know, I I hope you pick this one up. That's beautiful. Love how you put that, Courtney.

[25:12]Courtney Sheinmel: Gosh. That's good. That up. It's also, like she said, an adventure and not just an interior adventure. It's actually like a real adventure. Oh, there's yeah. There's planes. Well, there's not There's

[25:23]Marie Benedict: there's trains. There's ships. There's horse drawn carriages.

[25:28]Courtney Sheinmel: There's all sorts of calamities along the way, and there's a lot of characters. It's it's not as Courtney said, nothing happens in isolation. You know, we are all part of a community, and one action kind of ripples out into all sorts of ways you might not anticipate. And Lainie not only journeys physically across Europe in in circumstances that are really quite dangerous for a young girl at that time, but she's also journeying in terms of who she's meeting, who she's encountering, and then taking all of that and and undergoing this internal journey that and I think the time period is part of the adventure, you know, for the reader to take them someplace. Much like you do in a fantasy novel, you're going someplace you've never been. History is a little bit like that. I mean, it is someplace you've never been for sure, and it is different. But it is also funny and engaging. It's not heavy handed in the slightest. And it was just a joy to write. And Courtney is, like, so joyful to write with. I mean and I think that really comes through on the page.

[26:34]Zibby Owens: Amazing. Well, I'm so excited that the the two of you teamed up and put this into the world and that you are some of the people most inspirational to today's rising women. I mean, it's pretty awesome. I could think of nobody better. So there you go. Thank you. Thanks for all your work and entertainment and inspiration.

[26:57]Marie Benedict: Thank you so much, having us, and thanks for being you, Zebi. We really, really appreciate you so much. Oh, thank you. I appreciate you.

[27:06]Zibby Owens: Have a great day, guys. Take care. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Bye. Good to see you. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Sibby, formerly moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zippy Owens, and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.