James Frey, NEXT TO HEAVEN: A Novel
[0:00]Hi, I'm Zavi Owens welcome to totally booked where I get to talk to my favorite authors and hopefully yours too.
[0:10]Today we are so lucky to have James Fry who is back on the podcast.
[0:15]Yay.
[0:16]Thank you for having me.
[0:17]So thank you for being here.
[0:19]I'm going to read a little bit about the author here.
[0:25]Okay, James was called America's most notorious author by Time Magazine and the bad boy of American literature by the New York Times.
[0:35]He has written multiple global bestsellers including a million little pieces bright shiny morning and the final testament of the Holy Bible.
[0:45]He has sold more than 30 million bucks and his work is published in 42 languages.
[0:51]He lives in a small town in Connecticut and the book is next to Heaven, which is not the cover.
[0:58]This is dark.
[0:59]Congratulations.
[1:00]Thank you.
[1:01]The covers way dirtier when you actually get to see the real cover.
[1:05]I was just saying that, you know, the fact that we're giving out books to everybody in this audience,
[1:12]it should come with a rating warning.
[1:15]Just throw it at him.
[1:16]Just throw it at him.
[1:17]What rating are you giving me?
[1:18]I don't know.
[1:19]No, no.
[1:20]Like an NC17 or a triple X.
[1:23]I don't want to do it.
[1:24]Don't listen, honorable in the car with your kids kind of.
[1:28]People should know.
[1:30]Okay, James, tell everybody what is this book about?
[1:35]The book is about well.
[1:37]The book is about money.
[1:39]The book is about how, how, how money.
[1:43]I believe that money is the most addictive drug on the face of the planet.
[1:48]It is the most addictive.
[1:50]It is the most destructive.
[1:51]And it is the most damaging.
[1:53]I also happen to live in what from 1882,
[1:58]19, 2015 was the wealthiest town in the United States.
[2:03]And it's currently the second.
[2:05]And I'm not claiming, I'm poor, but I wrote a book about rich people
[2:10]and about sort of the insulated bubble that, that wealth exists in,
[2:15]in contemporary America.
[2:17]And, and sort of what goes on within those insulated bubbles.
[2:22]The one I live in, new can and Connecticut is not particularly unique.
[2:26]They're, they're these little bubbles all over the country.
[2:29]The plot of the book is it's a murder mystery that revolves around a
[2:33]swinger's party at a billionaire's house, right?
[2:36]Board rich people decide they want to fucking do some crazy shit.
[2:41]And, and they don't think that there might be repercussions.
[2:44]Or maybe they know they're going to be repercussions.
[2:47]And that's why they do it.
[2:49]But, you know, it's supposed to be a funny, sharp,
[2:53]dangerous, highly entertaining book.
[2:58]I wrote it when somebody in Hollywood asked me to,
[3:02]a producer asked me to read Hollywood Wives by Jackie Collins.
[3:06]And I read it and I thought it was spectacular.
[3:09]I never read Jackie Collins, but I loved it.
[3:12]I thought it was funny and bold and dirty.
[3:15]And actually very true to the culture out there in certain ways.
[3:19]The book is certainly aged.
[3:21]But then I read a couple more Jackie Collins books.
[3:24]And then I read a couple of Daniel Steele books.
[3:26]And they were fucking good.
[3:28]And they're entertaining and funny and cool.
[3:32]And I was like, well, what would it look like if I wrote a book like that, right?
[3:36]A funny, entertaining soap opera.
[3:39]The difference is I have the freedom of being able to be,
[3:43]because I am America's most notorious author.
[3:46]I have the freedom to do whatever I want.
[3:49]The freedom to make the book is bold and is dirty and is dangerous as I want.
[3:54]And that's what I did.
[3:56]Yes, he did.
[4:01]I would have said, yes, OK, it's about wealth.
[4:04]That's true.
[4:05]But it's about marriage.
[4:06]It's about relationships.
[4:08]It's about, I mean, listen, I write books about human things.
[4:11]I write books about love and art and sex and human emotions.
[4:17]When I write a book, the goal is never to write a book.
[4:23]It's to create something to string words together in ways
[4:27]that provide a reader with an experience that they have never fucking had before.
[4:33]I try to make books that are unlike anything that exists.
[4:36]I try to write, I don't try.
[4:38]I do write in a way that's absolutely singular.
[4:41]If you read a page of any book I've written, you know it's me.
[4:46]And so yeah, it's the same thing I do in other ways.
[4:51]Just cloaked in something else.
[4:53]But the goal is from the moment a reader starts reading it until the moment they stop.
[4:59]For them not to be able to put it down, stop thinking about it,
[5:04]stop talking about it, stop telling their friends about it.
[5:08]I seek to always overwhelm a reader with language,
[5:15]with emotions, with virtuosity, with boldness.
[5:23]And that's what I tried to do here.
[5:25]I just made it probably a little lighter and funnier than the other books I've written.
[5:29]It's definitely not the final testament of the Holy Bible.
[5:33]Well, stylistically, there are some things you do every time.
[5:37]You have a thing against quotation marks, which punctuation,
[5:41]which is great.
[5:42]You repeat words every so often to like drive them home.
[5:45]It's very poetic in a way, how you narrate, essentially.
[5:50]Yeah, I mean, the goal is to write, listen,
[5:54]a lot of what I do comes from art, right?
[5:57]My education is much more in art than anything else on a self-taught writer.
[6:02]And so I don't follow rules.
[6:06]A lot of what I do is very specifically designed to do certain things to the reader.
[6:12]And it mimics language, but not written language, right?
[6:16]When we speak, we don't have all these fucking rules.
[6:19]I don't put quotation marks around shit when I talk.
[6:22]I don't say, well, I'm going to say and then say it.
[6:25]I just talk.
[6:27]And so in my books, I remove the artifice of all that shit that were supposedly required to use when we write,
[6:33]but doesn't do anything, but slow a book down, make it more cumbersome,
[6:38]diminish the reader's experience.
[6:41]You know, we live in a world that's fast.
[6:44]We live in a world where we're bombarded with information,
[6:47]where we have very little time to do or think or pause.
[6:53]And literature and art should always be a reflection of the time we exist in.
[6:58]And mine is.
[7:00]I write fast.
[7:02]I bombard you. I overwhelm you.
[7:05]I don't give you a chance to take a fucking breath.
[7:08]It's bam, bam, bam, bam.
[7:11]And so all of the things that I do stylistically are designed to do things to the reader.
[7:17]There are no paragraph indentations because that half second it takes for your eye to move slows you down, right?
[7:25]There are no quotation marks because they're unnecessary.
[7:29]They're cumbersome. They slow you down.
[7:32]And they don't in any way mimic actual language.
[7:35]It's just some arbitrary bullshit somebody said we have to do.
[7:39]Well, I don't accept it.
[7:42]So I wrote, you know, the way I write.
[7:45]It's like people who are rebellion.
[7:48]I don't know if it's rebellion.
[7:50]It's trying to do something unlike anything else.
[7:53]It's trying to be singular.
[7:55]The greatest artists, the greatest writers, the greatest musicians, the greatest businessmen.
[8:01]The greatest business women are absolutely singular people who altered the world because of what they did and how they did it.
[8:11]And that's the goal is for me as a writer and an artist.
[8:15]It's to leave the world differently.
[8:17]It's to write in a way that's unlike anything anyone's ever seen.
[8:22]It's so that when a reader picks up my book, like I said, I don't want them to stop.
[8:27]And when they're done with it, I want them to say I can't believe he did that.
[8:32]I can't believe he writes like that. I can't believe he says what he says.
[8:37]And I can't believe he does it without apology.
[8:40]That was the coolest fucking thing I've ever read.
[8:43]That was the most fun I've ever had with the book.
[8:45]It was the most intense reading experience I've ever had with the book.
[8:49]And that's the goal. And there shouldn't be rules or in positions placed upon me.
[8:57]And when they are, I don't accept them.
[8:59]So I know we talked about this when I talked to you about Katarina a few years ago.
[9:04]And I know this question has gotten you in trouble in the past.
[9:07]But is this true at all?
[9:10]So I get this question a lot. I'm getting a lot now.
[9:14]I'll say a few things. Truth is a subjective word, right?
[9:18]And I've been saying that for 30 years.
[9:23]And suddenly the rest of the world understands what the fuck I'm talking about, right?
[9:27]We have fact and a fact is a documentation of a verifiable event.
[9:35]Truth is however anyone interprets that event.
[9:39]And you and I will interpret this event differently.
[9:42]I think we'll both think it's cool.
[9:44]Because you're an old friend and I adore you.
[9:47]And I'm happy to be back. But everybody else here will interpret it however they want.
[9:53]And that's what truth is. It's like love and God, man. We all have our own.
[9:58]And...
[10:00]And for this book, for this book, I just say what I always say, which is if a publisher wants to publish me as nonfiction, what happens is journalists and readers, some readers, not many, but mostly journalists and people in the media tear it apart to figure out what's not true.
[10:25]And if I write a novel, they tear it apart to try to figure out what is true. And the point of what I do, the subjective nature of how I fuck with the word truth, which is different than the word fact, is that I don't allow you to know, right?
[10:46]I think of what I do as a painting. Like when you look at a painting, do you say, well, painter, is that a nonfiction painting or is that a fiction painting? You don't. You say that is a work of art and I am going to interpret it how I feel I should. I'm going to interpret it in what it does to me and what it makes me think and feel in how it changes me or how I can reject it easily.
[11:14]And that's how I think of the books I write. Other people can call them whatever the fuck they want and it's meaningless to me. I write books, I make art with words, I tell stories that are designed to thrill and terrify and turn on and break readers, right?
[11:35]I try to do things like I said so that when you're finished with the book, I read and I don't know if any of you have read my books, I'm going to guess you probably have.
[11:46]But when you're done with the book that I read that I write, I don't want you to be the same and I don't want you to think of books to be the same.
[11:56]I want you to think of reading to be the same and I want you to hold everything else you ever read to the standard that I fucking set, right?
[12:05]I want you to say, you know what? I was great but it wasn't James fucking fry, right?
[12:14]And I did that with this book, like I don't write a lot.
[12:19]Part of that is because writing takes part of me away. Part of it is because I'm isolationist and solitary and very private.
[12:29]And part of it is because I only write when I'm ready to fucking bring it, right?
[12:36]I'm not going to be a writer who just pumps shit out to get a paycheck or to get my name and a newspaper.
[12:43]I write shit when I'm ready to bring what I've got.
[12:46]And, you know, I think with every book I've written, I've brought it and I think I've brought it this time.
[12:53]It's a little different, it should be more fun, it should be more laughable, it's way, way dirtier.
[12:58]But I think if you've read anything I've written in the past and you've enjoyed it, you'll dig this.
[13:03]It's probably more. And hopefully I find new readers and hopefully I bring new viewers to your podcast with all the crazy shit that I say.
[13:14]Like, okay, mental exercise of where I cannot put this podcast.
[13:18]No, I'm just kidding.
[13:21]The book deals a lot with disappointment.
[13:24]All the characters are really disappointed in the way their lives have turned out in some way whether it's the choice of spouse or what they're doing.
[13:32]or just their life in general, nobody is overly happy with who they are.
[13:37]And I was just wondering, are you disappointed with your life?
[13:40]No, very much opposite.
[13:43]But I have a great life.
[13:46]I have a life that I have built very in very specific ways to bring myself the piece that is important to me.
[13:56]I live in a black house at the end of a dead end road in the woods.
[14:01]I meditate, I read, I write, I listen to tunes, I look at art and I hang out with my children.
[14:09]I'm a father of three.
[14:12]I think I've had a dream life.
[14:14]I've had the life that when I was young, I used to read about other people having.
[14:22]And I would say, holy shit.
[14:26]For all the madness of my life, I've had a crazy life.
[14:29]I had addiction very young.
[14:31]I had problems with the law very young.
[14:35]I had insane fame.
[14:38]I had insane controversy.
[14:41]I was married to a woman.
[14:42]I loved for a long time.
[14:43]I have three children.
[14:44]I love.
[14:45]I've met all kinds of cool crazy people.
[14:47]I've had the life of my fucking dreams for all the good and for all the bad.
[14:51]It's what I signed up for and it's what I chased and it's what I dreamed of.
[14:57]I have no regrets.
[15:00]People ask that a lot.
[15:02]Do you regret?
[15:04]I always say no.
[15:05]If you look back at the earliest interviews I've ever given, I always said the same thing.
[15:10]I will say today, which is I came into this to be the most controversial, most influential,
[15:18]most widely read writer of my time.
[15:23]You can look at data and ask if I did it or not.
[15:26]That'll tell you one story, but the real story won't be told while I'm here.
[15:31]History and time will decide if I pulled it off.
[15:35]But that's always been the goal.
[15:37]So with the characters in the book, should we take away that because a lot of them end up making changes?
[15:45]And of course fiction is like the illustration of change.
[15:48]I mean, listen, I will say to get back to the disappointment, I got sidetracked.
[15:53]I live in this incredibly wealthy place with this people who have all the money in the world.
[15:57]And I don't say money is bad.
[15:59]I don't think money is bad at all.
[16:01]But I see the disappointment that they feel in their lives and largely because I live in an environment with some of the highest achieving people in the world.
[16:13]Some of the wealthiest people in the world.
[16:15]Some of the most A-type people in the world.
[16:17]And they've done extraordinary things and they're still not happy.
[16:22]And there's also a theme in the book of more, more, more, more.
[16:29]And you're not going to find happiness.
[16:31]You know, there's a saying from the doubt-aging, which is 4,000 years old.
[16:37]And it is if you chase after money your heart will never unclench.
[16:41]And I think that's a theme of the book that people have extraordinary means and assets.
[16:50]And they're still not happy with the life they live.
[16:53]And I do think that I see a lot of disappointment that I meet and see people all the time.
[17:00]I'm like, why can't you smile?
[17:02]Why are you still working?
[17:04]Why do you have $400 million?
[17:07]Why aren't you spending every second you can with your 12-year-old son?
[17:11]And I see these things.
[17:13]And I don't directly comment them on that.
[17:16]But one of the things I've also said for a long time about what I do and how I write and why I write what I write
[17:23]is my job as an artist is to hold a mirror up to the society I live in.
[17:28]And I hold that mirror up and I don't pass judgment on what I reflect.
[17:33]I don't generally interpret it for people.
[17:36]I don't tell them what it should mean and what it shouldn't mean.
[17:39]I hold up a mirror and I tell them to look at it.
[17:43]A lot of times it's real and comfortable for people to look at it.
[17:47]A lot of times it makes them feel not particularly good things.
[17:51]And that's all I've done here again is I've held a mirror up to the society that I live in.
[17:56]And I find the society I live in like the book.
[17:59]I hope to be filled with extraordinary wealth and privilege.
[18:05]I find it to be utterly absurd.
[18:07]I find it to be terrifying.
[18:09]I find it to be thrilling.
[18:11]I find it to be humorous.
[18:12]I find it to be ridiculous and terrifying and sad.
[18:17]And so hopefully the book is all of those things.
[18:20]Hopefully it makes everybody who reads it.
[18:22]Feel all of those emotions.
[18:25]And it's just me holding a mirror up.
[18:28]How do you think it's going to go over?
[18:29]Oh, sorry.
[18:30]Go ahead.
[18:31]How do I think it's going to go over with them?
[18:33]How do you think it's going to go over like in the neighborhood?
[18:35]You know, the two grocery stores in town here as you're pushing your cart getting, you know, lettuce.
[18:41]I mean, that's been interesting.
[18:43]Certainly when the book first got announced, people around town started talking about it.
[18:49]A woman I know who works at the bookstore in New Canaan's here today.
[18:54]And you can ask her.
[18:55]But yeah, everywhere I go in New Canaan now, people like ask me questions.
[19:00]Or they do the same thing.
[19:01]Who's a based on?
[19:02]Who's a based on them?
[19:03]I'm like, fucking no one, man.
[19:06]I hope it stirs the town a little.
[19:13]The town needs it, man.
[19:17]Do you agree?
[19:19]My, my, my accurate in my description that people like if I go to town, people
[19:24]stop me and talk to me about it.
[19:26]And I don't say much.
[19:27]I'm like, it'll be out in June, man. Give it a read.
[19:29]Come, come by the library.
[19:31]I'll be giving a talk.
[19:33]I hope it stirs everyone everywhere who reads it, right?
[19:40]Not just the town I live in.
[19:42]I hope it sells billion copies.
[19:45]I hope everybody reads it.
[19:46]I hope everybody loves it.
[19:48]Will they know?
[19:50]Will it sell a billion copies?
[19:52]No.
[19:53]But like, I can't control any of that anymore, right?
[19:56]Now it's in the world.
[19:57]I'm doing this kind of stuff.
[20:00]I haven't done this kind of stuff in a long time.
[20:01]I think you were the only person I spoke to
[20:03]for Katarina in the United States.
[20:08]I hope the book does well.
[20:10]I've published her that I love,
[20:11]who's been nothing but like a dream.
[20:15]We'll see.
[20:17]I know it's not the last of them, right?
[20:19]Like I sort of detoured and won a bunch of,
[20:22]did a bunch of things.
[20:23]I was a CEO twice and I had big fancy jobs,
[20:26]but I missed being a writer.
[20:29]I missed being alone in a room
[20:31]with an empty screen in front of me.
[20:34]I missed at the end of the day seeing
[20:37]that that screen wouldn't empty anymore.
[20:40]I missed the challenge of writing books.
[20:42]I missed the intensity of writing books.
[20:44]I missed the fever dream of the experience of writing the books.
[20:49]That's almost why I do it more.
[20:52]I can pontificate on all this bullshit,
[20:55]but at this point in my life I write books
[20:57]because the experience of writing for them for me
[21:00]is like this deeply personal, deeply intense,
[21:02]like magical thing.
[21:05]I've said before, I don't read books that I write.
[21:09]I've never read a book that I've written.
[21:11]My memories of my books are not the words on the page,
[21:14]but the experiences I had writing them
[21:16]and each of them has been very, very different.
[21:19]And I describe them usually with single words.
[21:22]So a million little pieces is probably the book
[21:25]people in this room have read.
[21:26]And I describe that book as a long scream.
[21:31]Some guy screaming bloody fucking murder for as long as he can.
[21:36]I described this book as a little giggle.
[21:38]LAUGHTER
[21:41]That's what it was.
[21:43]I sat at home and I listened to great tunes
[21:46]and I was in a comfortable chair
[21:47]and my house is mostly glass.
[21:50]I looked out at these beautiful trees
[21:52]and I literally listened to the bird sing
[21:55]and I put on music
[21:56]and I wrote and I laughed.
[21:58]And I did things like simply because I can
[22:02]and because they made me laugh
[22:03]and because they made me feel good.
[22:05]There's this weird, it's been written about now
[22:07]a few times this weird poem in the book.
[22:10]Oh, Connecticut.
[22:11]I don't really remember what I said.
[22:13]I wrote about like trees and birds and shit.
[22:18]But just to do that,
[22:19]I don't remember what I wrote
[22:21]but I remember when I was writing it.
[22:23]And I was sitting in this chair
[22:24]and it was probably two in the morning.
[22:27]And I was just high from working so long
[22:30]and staring at a screen.
[22:32]I'd probably been working for 14 or 16 hours or something.
[22:36]And it's at the beginning of the chapter
[22:38]and I had finished this chapter
[22:40]like two in the morning.
[22:42]And I thought, oh, Connecticut.
[22:44]LAUGHTER
[22:49]And so I just kept writing
[22:51]and it was just delicious.
[22:54]And I hope when readers read the book
[22:57]that it's just fucking delicious.
[22:59]LAUGHTER
[23:01]By the time you get to that,
[23:02]that's pretty far along.
[23:03]You are an inner spurs, the chapters
[23:06]with these short excerpts that seemed so real about the town
[23:09]that I was like, should I be googling New Bethlehem?
[23:12]I mean, I live in New York City.
[23:13]I never heard of this place.
[23:15]I mean, the town is New Canaan, Connecticut, right?
[23:18]I changed it to New Bethlehem
[23:19]to give myself the freedom to fuck around, right?
[23:23]Even if I've changed it, you're like, well, what's real?
[23:25]Imagine if I'd called it New Canaan
[23:27]and then some other fuckers gonna come up to me
[23:29]while I'm trying to buy like, you know, shampoo.
[23:34]And they're gonna be like, you got it wrong.
[23:36]Wave knee parks trail is this, not this.
[23:39]So I call that New Bethlehem
[23:40]and when people wanna complain,
[23:41]I'm just gonna like lift the fingers
[23:43]and be like, fuck off, man, it's a book.
[23:46]LAUGHTER
[23:47]Speaking of the trail, I love how you have
[23:51]Devon and Bell who are regrouping
[23:53]on everything sorted and salacious
[23:56]that happened that I before.
[23:58]And they're sharing all of their stories
[24:00]and they kept passing other people,
[24:02]being like, oh, hi, Val, high rise.
[24:04]And then like, wait 30 seconds, keep going.
[24:07]Hi, Rosalie, hi, whoever.
[24:09]As how it works at the parks in New Canaan,
[24:11]we have these huge parks.
[24:13]We have a park there that's almost as large as Central Park.
[24:15]It's called Wave knee.
[24:17]It's a lap on the family that founded Texaco.
[24:20]They had a 700 acre estate
[24:23]that they donated to the town and their trails
[24:25]and I walk at all the time.
[24:27]If any of you follow me on Instagram
[24:29]and I don't presume that you do,
[24:31]but if you do, you would have seen yesterday morning,
[24:34]I posted a video of me and my friend,
[24:37]Mordecai Rubenstein, who's a very well-known fashion dude,
[24:41]walking in Wave knee park.
[24:44]And literally, we do the same shit.
[24:46]We're like, fucking gossiping.
[24:49]And we see people who know, I'll be like,
[24:51]Morty, we like talking, we're going,
[24:54]hey, what's up, man?
[24:56]And then we just keep fucking going.
[24:57]And the women do it too, we all do it.
[24:59]It's like you have your bullshit, your walking buddies.
[25:02]I walk alone most of the time,
[25:04]like probably once or twice a week.
[25:06]My girlfriend who's not in the country right now,
[25:09]she walks with me a lot, but when she's gone,
[25:11]but me and Morty were walking, doing the same thing, right?
[25:15]It's what happens there.
[25:17]I mean, there are a lot of things in the book,
[25:18]the gossip, which I call the tea, right?
[25:20]I was going to say your Greek chorus,
[25:22]the voices told him and he told her and didn't get it.
[25:25]Literally how it works, right?
[25:28]New canes of town of 17,000 people.
[25:32]If this statistic is still accurate,
[25:34]I think they're 41 billionaires and a town of 17,000 people.
[25:39]It's an extraordinary sort of bubble and information
[25:44]moves in that bubble.
[25:46]Not in ways that are probably any different
[25:48]than the world or other towns,
[25:50]but I just thought it was funny,
[25:52]so I tried to write funny weird shit about how it works.
[25:56]Janie tells June, June tells Amy.
[25:59]Amy tells Mary, Mary tells Alice, Alice tells, right?
[26:03]And the story gradually gets twisted
[26:06]with each telling of it as we were discussing truth earlier, right?
[26:11]But yeah, I tried to, again, hold a mirror up to the town.
[26:15]That's where I live and I will say the people
[26:18]who have a lot of the people who have read it in the town.
[26:20]I don't think they're that many, maybe 20.
[26:23]And we can ask generally think that it's a pretty accurate
[26:27]reflection of the place.
[26:30]Would you agree?
[26:31]Yes, right?
[26:34]One of the people I had read it,
[26:36]one of my son's closest friends is the son
[26:40]of one of the very high ranking police officials in town.
[26:45]He was literally the first person to read it in town.
[26:48]And I gave him the book and I was like,
[26:49]check this out, man.
[26:50]Let me know what you think and call me maybe a week later.
[26:54]He was like, I fucking loved it.
[26:57]And he goes, half the town is gonna pat you on the back
[27:02]and shake your hand and half the town's gonna think
[27:06]you're a piece of fucking shit.
[27:09]And I sort of giggled and I was like, perfect, man.
[27:11]Just the way I went, yes.
[27:14]Jave, thank you so much.
[27:16]Thank you.
[27:17]It's so good to see you again.
[27:19]Thank you all for coming.
[27:21]And if you read my book, I hope you dig it.
[27:26]Amazing.
[27:26]Thank you.
[27:27]Thank you.
[27:28]And hey, we should all thank Zibi, books, books and culture
[27:34]are fading and to have somebody who's so passionate
[27:39]and to have somebody who's so passionate as a writer,
[27:43]to have somebody who's so passionate about what we do
[27:46]and for so many writers, you have done so much.
[27:50]And just as a writer, I say thank you for all you do.
[27:54]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi,
[27:57]formerly Momstone, I have time to read books.
[27:59]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[28:02]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[28:05]and spread the word.
[28:07]Thanks so much.
[28:08]Go and buy the books.