Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle, THE CREATIVITY CHOICE: The Science of Making Decisions to Turn Ideas Into Action
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[0:44]Dr. Zirana, if Kivitch Pringle, is the author of the Creativity Choice, the science of making
[0:50]decisions to turn ideas into action.
[0:53]Sarana is a senior research scientist at Yale University's Center for Emotional Intelligence.
[0:59]She is a regular contributor to psychology today and creativity post, and co-editor of
[1:04]the Cambridge Handbook of Creativity and Emotions and Crisis Creativity and Innovation.
[1:09]She lives in Portsmouth, in Hampshire.
[1:12]Welcome, Zirana.
[1:13]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Book.
[1:15]I cannot wait to discuss creativity and how to turn an idea into action, and just all
[1:22]the things that your book had to offer.
[1:25]I was obsessed with every sentence, love, and totally fascinated by the whole topic.
[1:29]So thank you.
[1:30]Wow.
[1:31]Thank you.
[1:32]Thank you for having me.
[1:33]I wish I could take your class.
[1:34]I feel like this would be the number one thing I would have taken at school, so anyway.
[1:40]So tell listeners what your book is about.
[1:42]Please.
[1:43]So my book is about how you take an idea that you already have and do something with
[1:48]it, so that it doesn't stay in the realm of fantasy.
[1:52]But it doesn't stay just in your head or something that you are discussing over coffee
[1:57]with your friends and family, but you do something and you make a difference and you
[2:02]make those ideas into reality.
[2:06]Amazing.
[2:07]So you point out in the book that we can all have ideas, and that ideas are not what's
[2:11]hard to come by.
[2:12]A lot of times people have ideas constantly, but they just stay coffee table ideas or
[2:19]your friend Harry that you talk about like on page one or just other things, and you
[2:23]also point out, though, that of course we have to be aware of our own constraints, and
[2:26]you send the books somewhere like, I'm 5'1, I'm not going to be a professional basketball
[2:30]player.
[2:31]That's not going to be the idea for me.
[2:33]But you do outline some of the things that you have found in your research make someone
[2:40]more likely to be the type of person who turns ideas into action, one of which is having
[2:46]an entrepreneurial parent and other characteristics about yourself.
[2:50]Can you talk about some of those?
[2:51]Yeah, and sometimes we have ideas, but we don't know where to start, or we have concerns
[3:00]that come to our mind.
[3:03]We start with this kind of internal monologue.
[3:06]I did a study when I wanted to see, okay, people sometimes don't share their ideas.
[3:11]So what is going on in your mind?
[3:13]And I could totally imagine these kinds of monologues.
[3:18]One consideration as well is this something that is really important to me, how central
[3:25]to my identity is to be creative and do something.
[3:29]Okay, but that's not the only consideration.
[3:33]And we have to acknowledge that.
[3:34]It's not a matter of just say yes.
[3:38]It is much harder than that.
[3:41]And I want to give people the credit that they deserve, that they are not not doing things
[3:47]because they are lazy or because, you know, it's a problem in them.
[3:52]It is genuinely hard.
[3:54]And these other considerations are, well, how are people going to take it?
[3:59]Sometimes we have these concerns about negative social consequences that could happen.
[4:05]Are those people who are going to read it, who are going to hear it, going to find
[4:11]their ideas, well, objectionable in some way, are they going to think they are challenging
[4:16]their authority, they're going to get angered about them, not going to take them seriously.
[4:24]That's a big consideration.
[4:27]And then very much related to it, but inward related is, how is this going to make me feel?
[4:34]Am I going to be so overwhelming with self-conscious that I just cannot deal with it?
[4:40]Yes, it would be important for me to do something to start that novel or to do that project
[4:47]that I have in my fantasy, but can I cope with dealing with the process?
[4:53]And those are big questions and what you said about it being hard.
[4:56]Like it's supposed to be hard and it will go through ups and downs when you are starting
[5:02]something new.
[5:03]And one thing you point out is having a support system, having a social network that you
[5:07]can rely on when you are doing this and the belief that what you are doing is important
[5:12]and that it gives you so much energy.
[5:14]You talked about some of the characteristics early on here, I'm just going to read a few of
[5:17]these, that you have to kind of have or foster in yourself openness to experience curious,
[5:26]valuing aesthetic experiences, passionate about your interests, embodying contradictions,
[5:31]like having a lot of energy, but being okay, being inactive, being really playful at times,
[5:36]being disciplined, being extroverted and introverted, focusing on the next idea and project
[5:41]always, and having the ability to make this creativity choice that you call it over and
[5:46]over again, because it's not a decision you make once, it is a decision that you have
[5:50]to like repeatedly commit to over and over again.
[5:53]So talk about all of that.
[5:55]Yeah, I, I know the book, the creativity choice and it sounds like it's the choice, it's
[6:01]one choice, you make a choice and then you go on and do it and, and everything is happily
[6:07]ever after, but it's not really, I, I title it like this to, to get people interested
[6:15]to get people, okay, I can make one choice, but once you can make one choice, then you know
[6:22]that you can make other choices too.
[6:24]It's now a matter of continuing that line and continuing that train of decisions because
[6:31]in, at every point of, do I go left, do I go right, the, the equivalent psychologically
[6:39]is, do I do something that is easier, therefore more conventional, something that I have
[6:45]done before, or am I going to do something that I haven't really done before could be more
[6:51]original, could be leading to more creativity, but it is going to be harder.
[6:57]I think that we oftentimes want to have in our mind a turn by turn playbook.
[7:05]And actually to me is kind of a meta, meta moment of reflecting on the process of writing
[7:12]and the process of publishing.
[7:15]One of the reasons why my book project, book proposal was rejected from some publishers.
[7:21]This was fascinating to me as a scientist was that they wanted really step by step instructions
[7:28]how to be creative.
[7:31]And my take on it as well, if this is the reason this is being rejected, I'm fine with
[7:36]it because I would not find it ethical to say this is a step by step cookbook, creativity
[7:42]does not work like that.
[7:44]So oftentimes we want to have an outline in my in our mind, we want to have a picture
[7:50]of how it's going to work out, we want to have a plan, we want to see three steps down
[7:56]the road, oftentimes that's not possible and we need to be able to accept that uncertainty
[8:05]around the creative process.
[8:08]And it's okay, you do not have to have it, you do not have to enjoy it, you do not have to
[8:13]be even comfortable with it.
[8:15]We sometimes talk in terms of comfort, you don't have to be comfortable making that
[8:19]choice, but you have to accept it as a fact of the creative process.
[8:23]And I should even back up because you differentiate between creativity as what people
[8:28]might think, like this is not all about painting and making a sculpture, but creativity
[8:35]meaning creating something and it could be a business that or it could be a product, people
[8:41]need a YouTube channel, like you talk about max farming and the book, like other things
[8:47]that have been created that people decide to just go through with, which is quite different
[8:53]than just saying, I want to wet my creative instincts and do a watercolor today, that's
[8:58]not what the book is, it's much more action into I take turning ideas into action and creating
[9:04]something.
[9:05]Creating, I love that verb form and the continuous verb form because that is what creativity
[9:12]is.
[9:13]It is continuous, it takes time, it takes situation.
[9:18]And yeah, in people have studied how we think of creativity and how we think of creativity
[9:25]is really based in large part on what messages we get around us in the world around us.
[9:31]And these are messages just like you said, you're going to get dirty with colors and
[9:36]it creates an art bias.
[9:39]And of course art is creative, it certainly is creative industry, so-called creative industries
[9:45]are creative, but that's not where it ends.
[9:48]And sometimes I get in these conversations the question, so what is your creative outlet?
[9:53]Again, implying that it has to be artistic and I love art, I remember.
[10:00]What of art museums, it seems to be a significant chunk
[10:03]of my time and investment, emotional investment,
[10:08]but I don't do art myself.
[10:10]And I really love how you picked up
[10:13]on this verb sense of creativity.
[10:16]In any area of work, any area of human endeavor,
[10:20]actually I am, I was born in Croatia
[10:24]and my creation is my native language.
[10:26]And I have recently talked to another colleague
[10:29]from Bulgaria with a similar language.
[10:32]And the word creativity in our native languages
[10:36]has a very different connotation than in English.
[10:39]And I love words and I love language.
[10:43]And the connotation is one of doing.
[10:47]It is not of a trait.
[10:49]It is not of an attribute of you as a person
[10:52]that describes you as an individual,
[10:55]but it is one of doing.
[10:57]It is of going there and that verb
[11:02]and continuous making of something.
[11:05]Interesting.
[11:06]You also point out that most people don't just wake up
[11:10]one minute, like you can use the example of Mac
[11:12]starting this big popular YouTube channel and everything.
[11:15]You don't just start one day and like create this
[11:18]and you have a million other examples too.
[11:19]You start with something small.
[11:21]You start with a small idea and you grow it and you test it
[11:24]and you make it bigger.
[11:25]And then it grows and then you follow where it goes.
[11:28]And I'm very interested in this
[11:29]because I feel like I'm always answering this question
[11:31]myself about like, how did you start whatever?
[11:34]And I'm like, well, I didn't start a giant thing.
[11:36]I started with one podcast interview.
[11:38]You have to start with one idea and test and not be afraid.
[11:42]I think you talk a lot about fear too.
[11:44]Like what makes some people afraid to try things
[11:47]versus others?
[11:48]And like in this podcast, I have lots of ideas all the time.
[11:51]And I'm always saying like as I've taught,
[11:53]as I'm trying to be like, oh, you know, you should do this.
[11:55]Nobody ever does them ever.
[11:57]Like I think I'm going to stop suggesting things.
[12:00]So then I'm wondering why.
[12:01]Like why?
[12:02]And that's why your book I feel like is particularly fascinating.
[12:05]So what is it?
[12:06]Like someone gives you a great idea and you don't do it.
[12:08]How can we turn those like people to like,
[12:11]how can we get the more of those ideas
[12:13]to become actual things?
[12:15]Exactly start like you started.
[12:18]Start with the first interview.
[12:20]You do not have to have a plan and a vision.
[12:25]Exactly how it is going to work out
[12:27]that you make it as big as you did.
[12:30]You cannot even know.
[12:32]You start with the first step.
[12:34]And you know, I wrote a book some years ago.
[12:37]I did not know that I could write a book.
[12:39]I really was not sure and actually doubted it.
[12:44]I, my first reaction to writing a book is,
[12:49]I cannot do that.
[12:51]I mean, book was something monumental in my mind.
[12:55]And how do you write a book?
[12:56]But I had changed that idea of something monumental
[13:00]in my mind and said, wait a minute.
[13:03]Internal monologue made external now.
[13:05]Thank you.
[13:08]Wait a minute.
[13:08]You have written book chapters.
[13:10]So in the social science fields,
[13:16]there is a tradition of integrative books
[13:21]that they are edited volumes and different experts
[13:26]in particular topics, narrower topics,
[13:29]write definitive chapters on that particular topic
[13:32]and it's a collection of these chapters.
[13:35]So I have written a big bunch of chapters in my life.
[13:38]And I said, hey, I can write a chapter.
[13:41]What is the book by the collection of chapters?
[13:44]8, 9, 10 chapters.
[13:47]I can write one chapter.
[13:48]I can write multiple chapters.
[13:49]Therefore, eventually, I can write a book.
[13:53]And if you don't take it as,
[13:56]I want to have one of the most successful book podcasts
[14:00]in the world because how do you even approach that?
[14:04]But if you say I'm going to write a chapter,
[14:07]you can do that, right?
[14:10]And you are breaking it down.
[14:12]It's not, we sometimes think of creative confidence
[14:15]as a trait, just like we sometimes think of creativity
[14:18]as a trait, but it's not.
[14:20]It is something that develops, something that is not constant.
[14:24]It's not that either you have confidence or you don't.
[14:27]It goes up and down and you develop it,
[14:30]but the catch is you can only develop it through action.
[14:36]I love that.
[14:37]And not being afraid to learn,
[14:39]which I think is so important.
[14:40]Like, you can doubt your own intelligence,
[14:43]which many people do.
[14:44]Oh, I'm not smart enough for this.
[14:45]I can do this, but at least for me,
[14:47]I can learn how to do anything if somebody teaches it to me.
[14:50]I can figure out YouTube.
[14:52]I can figure out, I can watch this video
[14:54]and learn how to turn on a microphone.
[14:56]If you have the confidence to know that you will learn
[15:00]and that there are things you can always take in
[15:03]and you can always be growing and learning,
[15:05]that gives you a different mindset
[15:07]than just being like, well, I don't know how to do that.
[15:10]Well, of course you don't, of course you don't.
[15:12]Never done it before.
[15:13]So of course you don't.
[15:14]It's like, I have given a couple of years ago
[15:17]the stock to an amazing group of designers,
[15:22]experience designers, museum designers,
[15:25]and I love the world of museums.
[15:28]It's kind of my fantasy place and place
[15:30]where I go to be whole and to feel well.
[15:33]So I really love talking to this group.
[15:36]And the question and answer comes up.
[15:39]And I get asked a question,
[15:41]how do I defeat the voice of doubt in my mind?
[15:46]And I mean, you can't.
[15:49]You're always going to have doubts.
[15:51]Everybody has doubts.
[15:52]Some people admit to them, some people don't admit to them.
[15:56]But you're human, you're going to have doubts.
[15:58]And that's okay.
[16:00]I came across recently this wonderful quote
[16:03]from George Joakeef and she said that she was never comfortable.
[16:09]She was actually terrified about everything
[16:13]she ever did in her life.
[16:15]But it's never prevented her from doing it.
[16:19]And I personally very much identify with this
[16:22]because we sometimes talk about don't be afraid
[16:27]or it's okay, you can be comfortable with something.
[16:31]You don't have to be comfortable.
[16:33]You just have to accept that it starts with action.
[16:38]Starts with that first interview.
[16:40]In my case, it started with the first blog post.
[16:44]I wanted to, I was an academic.
[16:47]I was always writing for technical audiences.
[16:52]And I wanted to learn how to communicate
[16:55]for the general audience.
[16:56]But at that time, number of years ago,
[16:59]I did not know how.
[17:01]So I figured that I'm going to teach myself
[17:04]by writing a blog for psychology today,
[17:07]which is a platform that gives you exposure,
[17:10]but also gives you way to teach yourself through time.
[17:14]And it started with the first blog post,
[17:16]a blog post of a thousand words.
[17:18]You can write the post of a thousand words.
[17:22]By the way, with writing and writing books specifically,
[17:25]I like to think of it in terms of even smaller than chapters
[17:29]in terms of scenes.
[17:30]Like I can write this scene.
[17:32]I can tell this story.
[17:33]I can imagine what's happening just this.
[17:35]And I'm not going to think about word count or chapters
[17:37]or whatever.
[17:38]But I'm just going to write this scene.
[17:39]And I'm going to get it on paper.
[17:41]And that's all it is, a collection of chapters,
[17:42]a collection of scenes.
[17:43]So it's almost like your whole thing is like a journey
[17:48]of 1,000 mile journey begins with a single step.
[17:51]This is like that sort of philosophy.
[17:53]And that when you are, but you have to have that desire
[17:57]to create.
[17:58]And it has to bring you joy.
[17:59]You talk about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation.
[18:02]There has to be something driving you.
[18:04]But you have to derive some sort of pleasure just
[18:07]from the act of doing it.
[18:08]Otherwise, you might not stay with it, right?
[18:11]Yeah, exactly.
[18:12]You need to be driven to do it one way or another.
[18:17]Whatever those reasons might be.
[18:19]And you are getting a level of joy from doing it.
[18:23]But we have to remind people that not every moment of doing it
[18:28]is going to be joyful.
[18:30]And sometimes I think what happens
[18:32]is that we talk about joy and people expect joy.
[18:36]And then they say, but this is hard.
[18:38]Therefore, I'm doing something wrong.
[18:40]Therefore, I am not able to truly do this.
[18:44]There is a level of abstraction talking about joy.
[18:48]There is a joy from the process as a whole.
[18:53]There is a joy from the process of really
[18:58]this is happening.
[19:00]Progress is being made.
[19:01]Something is taking shape.
[19:04]But if we drill down to every moment of writing,
[19:07]every moment of writing is not going to be joyful.
[19:10]Every moment of solving a problem
[19:13]if you are starting a business, if you
[19:15]are learning something in order to grow your YouTube channel
[19:21]or whatever your endeavor might be,
[19:23]is not going to be joyful.
[19:24]Sometimes it's going to be plain out painful.
[19:27]I am a big mystery, a reader.
[19:30]And I love Aditya Christie.
[19:33]I have probably read all of her books by now.
[19:37]And I read an interview with her
[19:41]where she described starting the writing process.
[19:45]And she talks about it as those dreadful two weeks
[19:51]where you pace around.
[19:52]When you bite your pencils, the sheer dread
[19:56]of anticipating how difficult the process is.
[20:00]And let's step back, right?
[20:03]This is a woman who has sold more books
[20:06]than anybody else in the world,
[20:10]who has written about 100 books and short stories,
[20:15]beloved characters.
[20:19]And yet, she found it difficult.
[20:21]So if you are finding it difficult,
[20:23]it's okay, it's part of the process.
[20:26]I love that.
[20:27]I've found that too from interviewing
[20:28]even the most successful authors.
[20:30]They are terrified that what if the magic
[20:33]doesn't happen this time?
[20:35]What if this book is terrible?
[20:37]What if, right?
[20:38]And I'm like, does no level of success
[20:40]inoculate you from this?
[20:42]But it doesn't.
[20:43]It doesn't completely.
[20:46]It's on some level somewhere in the back of your mind.
[20:51]You trust that you can do it
[20:53]because you wouldn't even start the process
[20:56]if you completely did not believe it.
[20:59]But they are doubts and it's not perfect protection.
[21:05]What if you talk a lot about creativity
[21:09]and how it's creating things that people need
[21:11]or you're meeting an unmet need
[21:13]or you're putting something in the world?
[21:15]What if you want to create something
[21:16]and then it turns out that people don't really need it?
[21:20]Then what?
[21:21]What if you go through all of the steps and the pain
[21:24]and this and that?
[21:25]Because so many businesses fail,
[21:27]so many things don't work.
[21:28]What then?
[21:30]And you take a deep breath.
[21:34]And you realize that part of creativity is risk.
[21:39]There is no guarantee that anything is going
[21:43]to always work out.
[21:44]And that is true.
[21:47]That is the reality.
[21:48]I am not going to tell you
[21:51]that I have a magic formula
[21:54]that everyone of your ideas is going to work out
[21:58]and is going to be beloved.
[22:00]I cannot tell you that.
[22:03]I mean, even Pixar did not make every movie
[22:07]that was perfect.
[22:09]And they are the closest that I know of.
[22:12]It is the nature of creativity
[22:14]that you are taking a risk.
[22:16]And that means that there is a percentage
[22:19]that does not work out.
[22:21]And in that case, you can take a deep breath.
[22:25]You can take some time to recover,
[22:29]to remind yourself that this happens sometimes.
[22:34]This does not only happen to you.
[22:37]You are not uniquely unsuccessful.
[22:41]You are not uniquely not capable of this.
[22:46]And when you have recovered enough,
[22:50]not fully, not now you are joyful
[22:54]and not free for your next project.
[22:56]But you have just taken the edge off enough
[22:59]that you can try again.
[23:01]You try again.
[23:02]Wow. So who do you think?
[23:04]And I know there are not step by step instructions
[23:06]in the book, but I do think it is a really powerful framework.
[23:09]And I think people interested in their own ability
[23:13]or desire to turn ideas into action
[23:18]will be much more equipped to do so after reading the book.
[23:21]They might not have a playbook,
[23:23]but they will have an understanding of what's involved
[23:26]and what's getting in the way and what to expect and all that.
[23:30]So who is like your ideal person reading this book?
[23:35]Is it someone who has never tried?
[23:37]Is it someone who has tried 100 things that have never worked?
[23:40]Is it just someone interested in the social science?
[23:43]Like who reads this book?
[23:46]I love this question.
[23:47]And I have really thought about this question a lot.
[23:50]Again, that, that, that thing of looking at the book writing
[23:55]and the book publishing process,
[23:57]I found it fascinating as a scientist
[23:59]and somebody who is really interested in humans
[24:02]and how humans work.
[24:03]So I can give you different levels of the answer
[24:07]to this question.
[24:08]One level is, well, if I'm talking to my publisher,
[24:12]I would say this book is primarily centrally
[24:16]for people who are interested in the creative process,
[24:20]who are interested in building their own creativity
[24:25]and supporting that of others around them.
[24:29]Whoever those others around them might be,
[24:31]you can think of it as being mentors or educators
[24:35]or supervisors and leaders and organizations.
[24:40]On another level, I could tell you a different answer
[24:43]and that is my next door neighbors.
[24:46]My next door neighbors are both physical therapists.
[24:51]They are not doing something that is creative
[24:55]on a daily basis.
[24:57]It's not irrelevant for them and for their lives,
[25:00]but they are ferocious readers
[25:03]and they are truly curious about human nature.
[25:06]They are interested in science
[25:09]and learning about different aspects of science of humanity.
[25:14]And they are very much interested in reading a book.
[25:18]So you have these different groups
[25:21]who are probably reading it for different reasons
[25:24]and why not all of them?
[25:27]Perfect, why not all?
[25:29]And your day job, you're still teaching,
[25:31]you're still doing research in addition to the book.
[25:33]What does that look like?
[25:34]My day job, I do have a day job.
[25:36]I am a research scientist.
[25:38]So my day job is doing research
[25:41]and I am doing research on creativity
[25:44]and research on emotions.
[25:47]And the intersection of the two we oftentimes
[25:51]talk about creativity as thinking, problem solving,
[25:55]outside the box and we don't talk enough
[26:00]about emotional side of creativity.
[26:02]And lots of the things we've been touched on today
[26:05]are really about emotions.
[26:07]Those barriers to making that first choice,
[26:11]I'm going to try to do something,
[26:13]they are emotional nature.
[26:15]They are about uncertainty, about self-doubt.
[26:19]So those barriers are emotional.
[26:21]Lots of the tools we need are emotional in nature too.
[26:24]It turns out that emotions can help you optimize
[26:28]what you are doing,
[26:29]but they also sometimes get in the way
[26:31]and you have to know what to do with them and about them.
[26:34]So I am very much interested in that.
[26:38]And as I was thinking of writing this book,
[26:42]I thought we do not have enough out there
[26:46]about part of creativity that is central to it,
[26:50]but that is not just thinking and coming up with ideas.
[26:53]I love that.
[26:55]That's amazing.
[26:56]So are you not teaching a class now?
[26:57]I thought you were teaching it.
[26:59]No, I right now I'm not teaching a class.
[27:01]I am a research faculty,
[27:03]so I don't regularly teach by starting a fall.
[27:07]I'm going to do online class on the book
[27:10]and have a book club, live book club.
[27:13]Oh, I love that.
[27:14]Are people to join?
[27:15]I love that.
[27:16]Where do we find that?
[27:18]Well, that's going to happen after the summer,
[27:22]but all information will be on my website.
[27:26]So if you can share in the notes,
[27:29]the link to my website,
[27:30]that's the best way to get in touch with me
[27:32]and the best way to keep track of things
[27:35]that are new that are happening.
[27:37]Amazing.
[27:37]Well, I love the work you're doing.
[27:39]And if I had a university,
[27:43]you would be like,
[27:45]you'd have like the biggest building on the campus.
[27:47]That's how I feel.
[27:48]I feel like what,
[27:49]because the work that you're doing changes society,
[27:51]really, it changes the way we live
[27:54]and can inspire people to then create more things
[27:57]that can change the way we live.
[27:59]So you're the ultimate motivator in a way, right?
[28:03]You're giving people the tools to understand
[28:04]what's getting in their own ways.
[28:06]And that is hugely beneficial to so many.
[28:09]So thank you so much.
[28:10]Thank you, thank you for having me.
[28:12]My pleasure.
[28:13]Okay, have a great day.
[28:14]Thank you so much.
[28:15]Bye.
[28:16]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi,
[28:18]formerly momstone have time to read books.
[28:21]If you loved the show,
[28:22]tell a friend, leave a review,
[28:24]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[28:27]and spread the word.
[28:29]Thanks so much.
[28:29]Go and buy the books.