Elaine Goldsmith-Thomas, CLIMBING IN HEELS: A Novel
[0:00]Hi, this is Zibi Owens, and you're listening to Totally Book to Zibi.
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[0:44]Elaine Goldsmith Thomas is the author of the novel, Climbing in Hills.
[0:49]Elaine began her career at the William Morris Agency and rose by the late 1980s to become
[0:54]the senior vice president of the WMA and later at the senior vice president of ICM,
[0:59]fighting the careers of, among others, Julia Roberts, Jennifer Lopez, Nicholas Cage,
[1:04]and Madonna.
[1:06]More recently, she has produced a broad successful slate of films and television series,
[1:10]including Made in Manhattan, Mona Lisa Smile, Hustlers, Marry Me, Emily and Paris,
[1:16]The Fosters, and many others.
[1:18]Welcome, Elaine.
[1:19]Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibi to talk about Climbing in Hills,
[1:24]a novel.
[1:25]Congrats.
[1:26]Thank you.
[1:27]Thank you.
[1:28]Thank you.
[1:29]This is my first podcast on Climbing in Hills.
[1:31]Oh my God.
[1:32]Yeah.
[1:33]You're going to get all the good stories, and then it'll be, well, I already said that.
[1:37]Yeah.
[1:38]I'm going to have to really dig into the treasure chest.
[1:40]It'll just refer everybody back to this episode.
[1:42]As I said, I have to say it, but you can just highlight that.
[1:46]I'm a little obsessed with these zibi Owens.
[1:49]I've got to tell, I love, I did a little deep dive on you.
[1:53]I'm a little obsessed with you, so I'm excited to be here.
[1:57]Anyway, here we are.
[1:59]Very sweet.
[2:00]Thank you, especially coming from you.
[2:02]This is very nice.
[2:03]Oh, thank you.
[2:04]Okay, Elaine.
[2:05]Yeah.
[2:06]Climbing in Hills.
[2:07]Take it from the top.
[2:08]You know, I've been a writer my whole life.
[2:11]But I had the good fortune of doing other things.
[2:16]And when I, you know, when I began my climb in flats, because I've always had bad
[2:22]feet, I mean, sometimes clogs, but rarely heals.
[2:27]You know, I wanted to be an agent so badly.
[2:31]I really felt like I had found my calling, the drive of turning a no into a yes and knowing
[2:38]how that felt.
[2:39]And there are a few stories in the book, I mean, the book is fictional.
[2:43]It's not me.
[2:44]I keep having people who are reading and in bands going, oh my God, I'm at that place
[2:49]in the book where so and so is going down on so and so when you walk in and I go, it's
[2:54]not me.
[2:56]But there is, there is a story, a few many stories in there that are and, and, and I did,
[3:04]I was in love with a boy who wanted an agent and I did go agency to agency to try to
[3:11]get him just to deliver, you know, I was the cat delivering the mice of whatever this guy
[3:18]needed.
[3:19]I just wanted to fulfill it somehow and, and I did that one summer.
[3:23]I worked my magic and, and got him an agent and nothing felt as good as convincing
[3:30]that agent that he was talented.
[3:33]See, I knew early on that, you know, heat is not, it's not, it's a more, people put their
[3:40]fingers in their mouth to hear, to, to see which way the wind is blowing.
[3:45]And I knew how to blow the wind.
[3:48]Because it came from passion, because it came from my truth, which was, you're amazing
[3:54]and I need the world to see it.
[3:55]So it really drove me.
[3:57]It somehow equated to my value, right?
[4:01]If I could get the yes, then I was worth more.
[4:04]What does that say about me?
[4:06]But it's like, you know, it's like being his father, right?
[4:09]The insurance salesman who teaches her early on, like this is how you get a platinum policy.
[4:15]It's because you have to convince people that, that they need something.
[4:18]They didn't even know that they needed and they have to see you and believe in you and
[4:21]what you can offer them.
[4:23]You really have to care.
[4:25]It's not about bullshit.
[4:26]It's about finding your passion and trying to spread it.
[4:30]You really have to care.
[4:31]And I really cared about this boy.
[4:34]I, I, I wanted to deliver.
[4:35]I was certain that his picture would be sort of carved in the Mount Rushmore of Hollywood
[4:42]and when he got happy days, I was, you know, oh my God, how will I live without him?
[4:48]But of course I did.
[4:49]But I never forgot the experience of going to the first place I went to for him was the
[4:54]William Morris Agency.
[4:56]And I went to the receptionist there and I said, you know, I have, you know, Al Pacino
[5:01]dusted every short actor I could think of.
[5:04]And she said try for Islam.
[5:06]And isn't it funny that four years later, because it was before college, four years later,
[5:11]I went back and she was still there.
[5:13]Of course she didn't remember me, but I remembered her.
[5:16]And I imagined that maybe she remembered me.
[5:19]I imagined I had left my impermeiture on all of these people.
[5:22]And, and I knew because of that experience that I had found a calling, but the truth was
[5:28]it wasn't my only calling.
[5:30]I have always been a writer.
[5:33]And once I became an agent, my clients didn't necessarily want it.
[5:38]They're agent to be a writer.
[5:40]So I would read scripts and then I would call the writers or the directors and I go,
[5:44]you know, if you did this at the end and I became, it became my, you know, Zamboni.
[5:50]I would polish them in my mind or give them ideas.
[5:54]And there was one writer who was very gracious to me in the 90s.
[5:58]His name is Ron Bass.
[5:59]He wrote my best friends wedding.
[6:01]He's written countless sleeping with the anime countless movies.
[6:05]And I had given him an idea for a movie.
[6:09]He was so kind to me because I was an agent and yeah, I was a big agent, but he gave
[6:15]me final draft.
[6:16]He set me up.
[6:17]This was in the 90s when still computers were like, you know, ginormous.
[6:23]And and he showed me how to use it and he said, you should be writing.
[6:28]And so I've always kind of been a closet writer.
[6:32]And it's just a sign that, you know, you don't have to only be one thing, right?
[6:37]To be Owens.
[6:38]I mean, you can be an agent or a producer or a writer or Jennifer's case, a singer and
[6:45]a dancer and an actor.
[6:47]You don't have to just stay in one lane.
[6:49]You have one life, right?
[6:51]Totally.
[6:52]They say you only live once, but the truth is you only die once, you know, live.
[6:57]So and per your book, you know, try to go out on top always being ahead of impeccable
[7:04]timing.
[7:05]And while I was at William Morris in the 80s as a secretary, and I, you know, I was
[7:10]running the maze in a mouse trap where I was not the cheese that they wanted.
[7:17]I was chubby and I was loud and I smoked and gosh, I probably reminded them of their
[7:23]ex wives or their girlfriends or the Yeshiva girls or whatever.
[7:27]But I wanted in so badly and it became, it became my focus.
[7:32]I was laser focused and I really believed in talent.
[7:37]And I also wanted to show that jerky guy who dumped me after I got him an agent, hahaha,
[7:42]see what you missed, but it never felt the same, by the way, after I arrived.
[7:48]And while I was, you know, those, those years were my early 20s, I graduated early.
[7:54]So it was all my 20s and, you know, I fell in love when I was there.
[7:59]We broke up.
[8:00]I, the relationships you make in your 20s, especially if you're professionally climbing,
[8:08]can last a lifetime.
[8:09]And they, they left such a mark on me.
[8:13]And there were people that made such a difference to me.
[8:18]There's a character in my book, Eligati, who wears her dress as too short, whose hair
[8:23]is too blonde and it doesn't give a fuck.
[8:26]And she was based loosely on someone I knew, who was funny and smart.
[8:34]And, you know, some people might have called her white trashy.
[8:39]And she'd have laughed in their faces because she was brilliant and rose to the top.
[8:45]And she allowed me to stand on her shoulders.
[8:48]And there was, there were other people who I didn't know, but I'd imagine their backgrounds.
[8:56]So I'd say 90% of this is imagined, maybe 80% of it isn't mentioned.
[9:03]And some of it is based on things I saw, people I knew, crazy experiences I had, you
[9:10]know, it's hard to, it's hard to believe that, you know, how wild it was for women, how
[9:16]difficult it was for women.
[9:18]And why we needed the shoulder pads, you know.
[9:23]So in 2019, I have all of these stories, these crazy stories about what happened to me.
[9:32]And those are, you know, legit stories.
[9:34]And then I kind of thought about other things.
[9:38]And so, actually, in 2020, I called Kevin Yvein, who I had worked with at William Morris.
[9:48]And then he left and went to CAA.
[9:51]And we had sort of risen together.
[9:53]And I said, you know, I've got these stories.
[9:55]I don't know, I, I, I might like write the fictional novel.
[10:00]No, it's not a memoir, it's, I wanna do like a valley of the dolls, which, you know,
[10:04]I loved those, those books, those once is not enough, or the Jackie Collins, or any
[10:10]of them, and I said, it's fun, and I wanna give people a little peek into what it
[10:14]was like, and he hounded me about it.
[10:18]You know, I said it to him, maybe a lunch, I said it to him, or dinner, and he hounded
[10:23]me.
[10:24]When are you doing that?
[10:25]How are you gonna do it?
[10:26]Finally, he had a literary agent, Molly, let call me.
[10:29]And she said, look, just put together a little pitch, and we'll go around to the publishing
[10:35]houses, and so I really thought about it, and I went, okay, I mean, I was in between
[10:41]movies.
[10:42]You know, I have many other hats that I wear, but I sort of wrote like a, I don't know,
[10:50]a ten-page prese, maybe, you know, just a overview of what I thought of who I wanted
[10:57]to investigate, and you know, and I thought, God, wouldn't it be fun if it's the 80s,
[11:02]then you can explore their backgrounds in the 60s, in some cases, the 50s, and how hard
[11:07]was it for them, and who were they?
[11:10]And I realized pretty quickly that all of my characters were kind of formed and informed
[11:17]by mothers who either had their own dreams or their fears, and that also kind of gelled
[11:29]to make these women who they were, because in truth, their mothers were their, their
[11:34]fuel and their crib tonight.
[11:36]Mm-hmm.
[11:37]So interesting.
[11:38]I love Beanie's mom.
[11:39]She is so, you know, when you talk about Zambonian, which sort of goes through the book
[11:44]all the way to the end, this notion of erasing the parts of yourselves that you don't necessarily
[11:49]love, and just, you know, let me just shorten my last name, and let me just, you know,
[11:53]change my address, a smidge, and all these things.
[11:56]She polished her life.
[11:58]She polished it like Botox, and, you know, that, I was so afraid, you know, my mom knew
[12:03]I was writing a book.
[12:05]Also what happened is in 2020, I went to the publishing houses, and I just told stories.
[12:11]I said, let me tell you about Beanie Rosen.
[12:13]Let me tell you about Ella Gaddie, Mercedes Baxter, and let's not forget Sheila Day, or
[12:18]Jamie Garland, all of these women from, from different decades who have scaled their way to
[12:25]the top.
[12:26]You know, and some of them became very much like the monsters they worked for.
[12:31]You know, it's hardly a feminist manifesto.
[12:34]It was just a slice of life.
[12:36]And though I didn't know it at the time, it was a great life.
[12:40]I was too busy climbing sometimes to notice, and I ended up having a bidding war.
[12:46]So I thought, holy fuck, what do I do now?
[12:48]Like I really have to write it, and we were pitching it at the dawn of the pandemic.
[12:54]I, who knew the world was going to shut down, but the world shut down.
[12:58]So there was every reason to do this book, every reason.
[13:02]And I'd wake up every day and dream of Beanie's life, importing some things that happened
[13:08]to me and amplifying them.
[13:10]I mean, yes, my mother, I was born in Piquima, my mother called it our leader.
[13:16]Then we moved to Sepulveda, my mother called it Northridge.
[13:19]I never knew where I lived.
[13:20]I just knew I wasn't good enough.
[13:23]But you know, and I think my mother was terrified about this book, like what is she saying?
[13:28]Like, you know, she thought I was like a mommy dearest and I kept saying, no, Mom, this
[13:33]book isn't about you, it's because of you.
[13:36]You gave me the power and the confidence to do it.
[13:40]I mean, you know, she died before, if she died in 21 while I was still writing at rest or
[13:45]so.
[13:46]But, you know, I dedicated it to her, and Mary and Rose's wag is not my mother.
[13:52]But there's little elements of, and all of them, you know, Ella Gaddy has a mother who
[13:58]was an ex-debutant and held on to that crown and didn't know what to do with her daughter
[14:03]or rebellious, outspoken daughter whose legs were prehensile and wrapped around themselves
[14:10]for punctuation and Mercedes Baxter was, you know, finds out that her sister was her mother.
[14:21]And it's the way we climb out of our life circumstances, creating and then recreating.
[14:28]The lives we want, right?
[14:31]And it poured out of me, Zippy, it poured out of me.
[14:34]It was like, because, you know, I'd say about nine months, I wrote it from, I'd say March
[14:43]of 20 till October of 21, I had my very first draft.
[14:49]And then I kept, you know, rewriting and rewriting and re-writing and pulling out and
[14:55]St. Martin's kept saying more sex, I just want to put that on them.
[15:01]There's a scene in the beginning during Beanie's mom's remarriage where this offensive
[15:08]boy takes his pants down essentially and what some greenhouse or I don't know somewhere
[15:13]behind the wedding and this very vivid scene until she finally is like, okay, no, I'm leaving.
[15:19]I feel like that's such a good send-off for like the career, what you get, how to say
[15:25]no, when to say no, how much you can take all of it.
[15:29]And also being titillated and nauseated simultaneously, she, it was in the terrace of the
[15:35]sportsman's lodge where the Schnitz, the Schnitz who's older than she is and quite
[15:41]more monily ready reveals himself to her.
[15:45]And she is sort of sickened and transfixed and it's her first sexual experience.
[15:53]And again, kind of tied to the fact that, you know, I'm pretty, somebody wants me.
[16:00]And I guess I was sort of afraid that everybody would think I'm beanie, I'm not beanie,
[16:05]and that, oh my god, how do you show this?
[16:08]But there's such a humanity to, I think, to her journey, even in her desperate times
[16:16]where I went back and forth on that line where she tries to convince her, the boy that
[16:25]she meets after the Schnitz, she tries to convince him how great he is and quell his anxiety
[16:32]and assure him that he's going to make it and she's going to help him make it.
[16:37]When he's, and she pays for his pictures, his headshot, she takes money from her stepfather's
[16:42]sock drawer, pays for his headshots, and when he's anxious, she lets him fuck her up the
[16:47]ass.
[16:48]Not true, but I have to put an explicit wording on this, yeah, I mean, or you can cut that
[16:54]out.
[16:55]Yeah, lots of blow and blow jobs, sorry, it's the 80s, it's the 80s and there were no,
[17:01]holes barred, certainly not beanies.
[17:04]So yeah, it's a fun journey back at a woman trying to find herself worth and the hard
[17:13]part was for beanie that if she lost a client, it would somehow affect her self worth.
[17:19]She didn't have enough stability.
[17:22]So it was always about hanging on and as she watched, you know, in this world with these
[17:29]women, it wasn't killer, be killed, it was killer, become irrelevant.
[17:35]And none of them, not beanie, not Sheila day, not Jamie Garland, not Meredith, Baxter
[17:41]Con, and not Elle Gaddy wanted to become irrelevant.
[17:46]They wanted to mean something.
[17:47]And maybe this book is their journey to self love.
[17:51]And do you think it's your journey to self love?
[17:55]Yeah, I think coming out and saying, yes, I'm a writer and standing in the truth of that,
[18:03]you know, it was always easier to sell someone else's dream.
[18:07]You know, this is a book really about background people.
[18:10]I have a really interesting story.
[18:12]I was a secretary working for in the theater department and this old man, daughters up,
[18:20]I wrote about this in the book, actually, it happens to beanie.
[18:24]This old man and it's true.
[18:26]He walked up to me and he was probably in his late 70s, maybe early 80s.
[18:33]And he said, he sat down opposite my secretarial desk and he said, you know, they killed
[18:37]Maryland.
[18:39]I said, what?
[18:40]He said, they killed Maryland.
[18:41]I said, oh, okay, and I kept typing and he said, you know, I didn't want them to.
[18:46]I mean, she loved me.
[18:47]She kept calling me Uncle Melty and like she called me and we talk and, you know, we,
[18:52]ate cookies together a lot.
[18:54]Oh, good.
[18:55]Yeah.
[18:56]But, you know, we couldn't stop her.
[18:57]She was spinning.
[18:58]We couldn't stop her.
[18:59]I said, yeah, well, that happens.
[19:01]You know, and I'm just sort of entertaining him until he goes in to see my boss.
[19:07]About 20 minutes later, 25 minutes later, he leaves, walks down the hall.
[19:12]I said to her, her, my boss, Gail necklace, who was that guy?
[19:17]So she pulls down one of those books, maybe an MGM bucket was before Google.
[19:22]And she said, and she goes to the index and she finds his name.
[19:26]And she looks at the pages and there he was, there he was, there he was there.
[19:31]He was in back of every famous picture you could imagine, Marilyn Monroe, the rap pack, Peter
[19:38]Lofford, Frank Sinatra.
[19:41]She said he was the guy you used to go to to get the guys.
[19:45]And I said, oh, she said he's a background person.
[19:49]You know, the background people, they're the ones, they're the keepers of your legacy.
[19:53]And suddenly I looked at her and I said, wait a second, he was saying to me that they
[19:56]killed Marilyn and she shrugged and she said,
[20:00]He would know.
[20:01]And that's what this book is about, in a way,
[20:04]the background people who maybe for a second
[20:07]because they stood close enough to fame,
[20:09]got a little bit of fame themselves.
[20:12]They display pictures of themselves with famous people
[20:15]in their offices, if their fame would rub off on them,
[20:18]as if it somehow gave them power.
[20:21]It's about that, I think, and other things.
[20:25]And family, and religion.
[20:28]No, no, it's really amazing.
[20:30]And then, in addition to this,
[20:33]now it's circling back because it will be a movie as well, right?
[20:36]So now it's like, you can tell the way from yourselves.
[20:38]A television show, yeah.
[20:40]What happened is, I gave it to a few people
[20:43]when it was kind of still, you know, forming.
[20:47]I gave it to Darren Stark, who I used to represent as an agent.
[20:52]I just, I kind of wanted to set the table.
[20:56]I was so nervous about people judging me
[21:00]and I was scared to come out with it.
[21:04]And so I gave it to him, and he inhaled it.
[21:07]And he went, I love it.
[21:09]I said, oh, thanks.
[21:10]He said, I wanna option it.
[21:11]I said, oh, well, you know, you have.
[21:13]No, I wanna option it.
[21:15]I said, okay, we're not going out with it yet.
[21:17]No, no, I'm optioning it.
[21:19]And really, I was so gobsmacked by it.
[21:23]I went, okay, well, let's talk about it.
[21:26]He said, look, you'll write it with me.
[21:28]I'm optioning it.
[21:29]I just made a huge deal at Universal.
[21:31]He sends it to Universal.
[21:33]In a week, they read it.
[21:34]They went, oh my God, we're taking it off the table.
[21:37]I had, they haven't read the corrected version yet.
[21:41]So I said, okay, I talked to my agents.
[21:44]They went, no, this is great.
[21:46]And I mean, who wouldn't wanna do it with Darren Stark, right?
[21:48]I mean, and then Peacock read it.
[21:51]And they gave us an order direct to series.
[21:55]Oh my gosh.
[21:56]So we have an order and we'll start writing it this summer,
[21:59]I guess.
[22:00]I mean, it's nutty, right?
[22:02]It's nutty.
[22:03]I mean, don't you feel like after all this,
[22:05]you deserve to have your dreams come true also?
[22:08]It's not that my dreams didn't come true.
[22:10]It's that I have a lot of dreams.
[22:12]And I guess that's what I would say.
[22:14]It's not that I was going, oh, I wish it's that
[22:17]you don't only have to dream in one lane.
[22:20]Like Zibi, if you wanna be a director, go for it.
[22:23]I'll produce you.
[22:24]You know, like in other words, yeah, this is happening.
[22:29]And I am pinching myself and it is crazy.
[22:32]And I am scared.
[22:34]And I don't have a, I don't have a thick skin.
[22:38]I remember one of my clients going, you know,
[22:40]look what they said about me in this magazine.
[22:43]I went, oh, stop.
[22:45]Then I read something they said about me.
[22:47]And I was like hiding under the, you know what I mean?
[22:49]It's, I can say, oh, stop until it's about me.
[22:52]So yeah, I mean, I think that my dreams are coming true.
[22:58]And I think that it's a lesson that the best is yet to come.
[23:03]The best doesn't live in the rear view.
[23:05]You can take the rear view and let it inform
[23:07]where you wanna go.
[23:09]And I have to thank Jennifer for that,
[23:11]because man, here I am, writing her company,
[23:14]producing with her, writing a book, promoting the book,
[23:19]gonna write a series, you know,
[23:21]and people go, how do you do it?
[23:22]I go, I don't know, I guess I'll figure it out.
[23:25]But it's a reminder that the only thing stopping you
[23:28]in life sometimes is you, right?
[23:32]Such important messages that you're sharing.
[23:35]Yeah, I mean, I, I, again, I don't take it
[23:39]or myself too seriously.
[23:41]I think it's a fun romp in the 80s.
[23:44]I don't see why anybody would object to the book at all.
[23:47]It is fun, it's poignant.
[23:50]The whole mother daughter, the hilarious stuff about
[23:55]dieting and eating, which like people today are like,
[23:58]wait, what?
[23:59]It used to be like, what?
[24:00]And I like, it was like this for everybody.
[24:03]Like all of these things, so many people will see themselves
[24:06]in one slice of the character or another
[24:08]that it will be hard to not, to fall in love
[24:11]with some of the characters.
[24:12]Thank you.
[24:13]I am hearing that from people as they read it,
[24:17]that they are touched by Beanie, which touches me.
[24:21]The voice is great.
[24:22]Like that's really something you can't,
[24:24]you can't teach, you can't, sorry, there's a siren,
[24:26]but you know, you can't manufacture like a great voice
[24:31]and your voice is unique and it's entertaining.
[24:34]And then you like wrap everything up at the end.
[24:37]And it's, it's great.
[24:38]It's very satisfying.
[24:40]I, my book company was, was mad at me about the way I was
[24:45]ending it, like, you know, how I began.
[24:47]And I don't, can I say it?
[24:49]Well, I begin it that way.
[24:50]So I guess I can say it, right?
[24:52]That one of my characters dies.
[24:54]But, you know, the thing about this character
[24:57]is she always had perfect timing.
[24:59]She knew how to sign a client.
[25:01]She knew how to end a meeting.
[25:04]And, you know, when she did the math in her head,
[25:07]if you die on top, that's a legend
[25:10]because you can only stay up so long, right?
[25:13]And that was her rationale.
[25:14]So I so appreciate your enthusiasm.
[25:17]I so appreciate your words.
[25:20]I am excited for people to read it.
[25:24]I'm excited to make it into a show.
[25:28]And I've really loved writing the book.
[25:32]I really loved it was like I would visit these women,
[25:37]these men and women.
[25:38]And whenever I go, I'd carve out time.
[25:42]I started to get up at four or five in the morning
[25:44]to do it so I could do my other job.
[25:47]And it was so fun because I went into their world
[25:50]and I imagined it.
[25:52]And I'd research, because I didn't remember
[25:55]all that stuff from the 80s.
[25:56]So I'd have to do research and then I'd look it up
[25:59]and then I could do anything because I was imagining it.
[26:04]And that was fun for me.
[26:06]It's amazing.
[26:07]Well, you can tell that it's fun.
[26:08]You can always tell if something is done with love
[26:12]and done with energy and excitement
[26:14]and I definitely got that from this book.
[26:16]And I'm very excited for you.
[26:18]And thank you for talking to me today
[26:20]about climbing in heels and just so excited to see it come
[26:25]out into the world and all the good stuff.
[26:27]So thank you, Zibi Owens.
[26:29]I'm a little obsessed with you too.
[26:31]And I will refer to you more because Zibi.
[26:35]And I hope the next book party you have you'll invite me
[26:37]because I hope I can be on one of the two coasts.
[26:40]Please come.
[26:41]Yes, yes.
[26:41]100%.
[26:42]All right.
[26:43]All right.
[26:44]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi.
[26:48]Formerly, Momstone have time to read books.
[26:50]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[26:53]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens,
[26:56]and spread the word.
[26:58]Thanks so much.
[26:59]Oh, and buy the books.