Suzy Welch, BECOMING YOU: The Proven Method for Crafting Your Authentic Life and Career
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[0:45]Welcome back to Totally Booked, so please do be here with Susie Welch becoming you the proven
[0:50]method for crafting your authentic life and career congratulations.
[0:54]Thank you very much, so happy to have you here.
[0:56]I'm going to read Susie's quick bio for you.
[0:59]Okay, Susie Welch is a professor of management practice at NYU Stern School of Business
[1:06]and an expert on personal values and their role in forging meaningful careers.
[1:10]She invented the three scientifically validated digital tools used in the becoming you method,
[1:15]the values bridge, pi 360, and the careers traits compass and is the creator of the
[1:21]well to Bristol values inventory.
[1:23]Congratulations.
[1:24]Thank you.
[1:25]Hi everybody.
[1:30]Book is so great because first of all, your voice comes through on every page.
[1:35]I haven't met you until today.
[1:37]I felt like I completely got to know you through the book.
[1:40]You share the joys and sorrows, your most intimate moments of loss and resilience and
[1:45]motherhood and career and everything.
[1:48]And I feel like not only at the end have I read a great memoir, but then you give all
[1:52]these tools for me to have a better life myself.
[1:55]So thank you.
[1:56]Thank you for saying that.
[1:57]Thank you.
[1:58]I just let it all.
[1:59]I thought, why hold back?
[2:01]I don't want to write a boring how to book.
[2:03]I want to tell the true story of how I came to these ideas.
[2:08]There's nothing simple or hack like about them and there's nothing simple or hack life
[2:13]about life.
[2:14]And so I just poured about.
[2:15]It's amazing.
[2:16]Thank you.
[2:17]Can you tell everybody a little bit of the back story how you decided to teach a class,
[2:21]how you came up with this method, how just all of it came together?
[2:24]Yes.
[2:25]Do you have 17 hours?
[2:26]Yes, I'll do that.
[2:27]I'll do the very, I'll do the cliff notes of it.
[2:29]I had had a long and happy career in broadcast journalism basically.
[2:35]I worked on NBC and CNBC and I wrote for, oh, the Oprah magazine and I was pretty happy
[2:42]doing that as I was raising my four children and having a very busy life with my late husband
[2:46]and we wrote books together about business and management.
[2:49]And that was going along pretty very happily for, I mean, I have four kids so I don't want
[2:54]to say very happily because kids are kids and they go off the rails when you're not looking
[2:58]and even when you are looking, right?
[3:00]And so that was all going along for 15 or something, 20 years and then my husband got very
[3:06]sick and everything had to change at first we thought we could beat it.
[3:11]And so we did that fight and then we couldn't beat it so we did a totally different fight
[3:15]which is not a fight but it's a journey.
[3:19]And in that period I brought my work down, at first I cut my work in half, I like
[3:24]go one of my shows on CNBC and then I brought my life down to an even lower boil, I ended
[3:30]up being on some boards and doing stuff like that but then in 2020 my husband passed
[3:34]away and it was, I was prepared but nothing prepares you.
[3:42]That's the thing.
[3:43]I mean, he wanted me to be prepared.
[3:44]We talked about me being prepared but and it happened on March 1st and then COVID hit
[3:48]March 16th and yes and you know, it was terrible for all of us.
[3:54]And so I don't want to say it was worse for me or it wasn't, it was just terrible and
[3:58]it was terrible with many, many layers.
[4:01]And we went up to the woods of upstate New York, as I saw four children and their spouses
[4:06]and we all went up to the upstate of New York with all of our dogs, it was dog a poulouse
[4:09]and there were seven dogs and all of us.
[4:11]And then I was sad and they were wonderful and we grieved together and then they are young
[4:17]and they started to put their lives back together again but I did not and I was wandering
[4:21]around in the woods of upstate New York with all my children gone and my dogs to the point
[4:25]where like the dogs were like enough is enough.
[4:27]I mean and I was still walking and then I'm very fine and I kept on saying no, let's
[4:33]keep walking and then very fortunately the great hoda coat bee called me up and said,
[4:38]I think it's time for you to come back on TV and I said, okay, okay and I didn't like
[4:43]I didn't know how I felt about going back into the world but as I got closer and closer
[4:47]to the studio I felt more and more excitement.
[4:50]I felt like, oh, oh, oh and I remember it's like seeing New York again for the first time
[4:54]and feeling like, oh, I do belong back here and I was, I went back on the show and that
[5:01]day I did a segment and hoda I said, after the segment was over, Susie Welch, will you
[5:07]come back to the today's show and I went, yes, but I already knew no because I, you
[5:13]know, I mean we have a photograph of my face sort of like as I said it but it was like
[5:18]being has to be married on the Jumbo Tron, you know and I loved the show but I, something
[5:24]in me had really changed and I was, something in me had really profoundly changed but
[5:28]I didn't know what I should do with my life only that I wanted to do something with
[5:32]my life and for years I had been formulating a methodology and I've been formulating
[5:37]it I had a show called Susie Welch Fix My Career and I was writing a career's column
[5:42]for Oprah and then for business week and I had this methodology that was bubbling up
[5:47]and right around then a friend mentioned to me that he was teaching at NYU and I thought,
[5:51]well maybe I could take this methodology and teach it at the business school I wish I'd
[5:55]had this methodology when I was in business school.
[5:58]So what came over me I went to, I knew the Dean for my previous life and I went to
[6:01]go see him and I said I have this idea for methodology and he said, well you can try it
[6:06]as an experiment we always were very experimental at NYU were very entrepreneurial come
[6:10]and try it and I said okay great but you know if you create a class called becoming
[6:16]you crafting the authentic life you want need and you offer it to 20 and 30 some things
[6:20]it's not an experiment for very long and they were going to do a 20 person experiment
[6:25]the first semester and then they call me and say how do you like 40 students how do you
[6:28]like 80 students in the rest of the history so I, the course was needed and it became
[6:34]very well received and I love those students in the first semester so much because after
[6:40]every class I had required homework where they had just tell me how I was doing and
[6:45]they were wonderful and kind and encouraging they had a heart for me I had a heart for
[6:49]them we were all going through it together because I was the first beta tester of this
[6:53]methodology and then the course took off I was asked to join the faculty full time as a
[6:59]full professor I did and took on another class called management with purpose and I
[7:04]teach that as well and then I thought one day I was teaching and I thought to myself I'm
[7:09]extraordinarily happy first time in a really long time and I thought oh I found my purpose
[7:15]and the method helped me get there and right around the time my old publisher was coming
[7:21]around saying would you like to write a book on this we'd like to write a book on this
[7:24]and I was like no no no no no no no no no no then around Christmas she took me out for
[7:31]lunch I believe a bottle of wine was involved in next year no there was a book but I was
[7:35]arranged by my children to write the book and so here it is it's amazing thank you well you
[7:44]outline the methodology in the book and you gave us quizzes that we cannot take for free on
[7:50]your website and all of that which I of course had to take I'm glad so thank you for that
[7:56]your your general premise is the the differential between your what you want out of life and what
[8:01]you have in your life and how you can sort of make that difference up and what you can do to
[8:05]change it yes over simplification okay why don't you do a better okay all right well the premise
[8:10]of the methodology is one thing and then the values bridges another let me just quickly go to
[8:14]them so the methodology says that your purpose lies at the intersection of your values your
[8:19]deeply held beliefs and desires your aptitude which is what you're uniquely good at and your
[8:24]economically viable interests well we can test for aptitudes okay your aptitudes you have eight
[8:29]cognitive aptitudes to tend to matter work none of us ever get tested but we should in the book
[8:33]hence test for it and our personalities and also also an aptitude you know as well as I do that
[8:38]some people are very good at their jobs because of their personalities and sometimes not
[8:43]and your interest most people know their interest but if you don't there's ways to find that
[8:47]out that complicated and very hard part is knowing your values so one of the first things I did
[8:53]when I landed on the faculty was research because my suspicion was that most people didn't know
[8:57]what values were or what theirs were these really hard stuff to know because society scream and
[9:03]your parents are screaming in your ear what your values should be and so most people have their
[9:08]values galloped away with by a partner a parent life children and so I started to try to develop
[9:16]exercises to help people excavate their values and I developed seven exercises that I used
[9:21]there in the book and I used them in class but I was frustrated that there was no exercise
[9:26]that captured accurately there's 15 core values that I work with they're part of this inventory
[9:31]that I invented the world's crystal values inventory which builds on the shoulders of other
[9:36]great inventories but I like my better but in whatever there's other values inventories
[9:41]and no tool really captures not just what your values are but how much you're living them
[9:48]so say you have a value of scope scope is the value that measures how big and exciting
[9:55]life you want and some people want to be like Bianca Jagger writing in on a white horse
[10:00]Studio 54 with tons of excitement,
[10:02]stimulation, new learning, new experiences.
[10:04]You know, my husband was off the charts on scope,
[10:07]and how do you know?
[10:07]We were lying in bed at 11 o'clock at night
[10:09]and you'd say, let's go do a pub crawl.
[10:11]I mean, he could use a junky for excitement, right?
[10:13]And we said, would you do it?
[10:15]I did it, I loved him.
[10:17]Did I wanna do it?
[10:18]I mean, once we got going, I'd have fun,
[10:20]but usually I'd be like, I'd lights out a non-clock for me.
[10:22]Okay, I mean, I mean, the dogs were asleep at nine
[10:24]typically, but I loved him, and I would go.
[10:26]And it would always be fun, you know, it was fun.
[10:29]It was fun when we did it.
[10:30]But some people don't want to scope in their life at all.
[10:32]I mean, they wanna know, they want a lot of predictability
[10:34]and they want control, there's no right or wrong.
[10:36]It's a continuum, right?
[10:38]Now, what I wanted was for my students A
[10:42]to know how much of each value they had,
[10:45]scope, affluence, luminance, family centers,
[10:48]and work centers, there's 15 of these values.
[10:51]How much they had, but how much they were actually expressing?
[10:54]Like, you can really have a value of scope,
[10:56]but have a very boring life,
[10:58]and you could feel like you're in a suit that doesn't fit you.
[11:00]That's the variance that you got measured.
[11:03]So the test that I have this values bridge,
[11:05]which you can take, it's on my website,
[11:07]tells you what your values are, ranked one to 15,
[11:11]and it tells you the variance on every single one of them,
[11:14]and then it tells you your overall variance.
[11:15]And so I developed this because I was frustrated
[11:18]that my students, the exercises weren't getting us close enough.
[11:22]And now on my bingo card, developing digital tools,
[11:25]starting at age 60, not there,
[11:26]but you just, you know, in necessity is the mother of invention.
[11:30]Well, you gave us so many examples in the book
[11:32]of who this has helped,
[11:34]and the way in which it helps,
[11:35]where you have one man who comes into your class
[11:38]and is an investment banker, and that's his path.
[11:40]And by the end of it, he is a fashion designer.
[11:43]That's correct.
[11:44]His parents still looking for me,
[11:45]and it's parents gonna hunt me down, but yes, no.
[11:49]I mean, they came to peace with it.
[11:51]So what if you take these quizzes,
[11:55]and you're like, okay, my life is totally out of alignment
[11:58]in this way, or I didn't realize I prioritized
[12:00]this out of the other thing, as much,
[12:02]or I was embarrassed to admit that this was important to me.
[12:05]Now what do I do?
[12:06]Yes, so I have taught this not just to MBAs,
[12:09]but I've now done a lot of workshops.
[12:10]I do these three-day workshops.
[12:11]And I've taught to people from age 18 to 78.
[12:14]So it's not just MBAs who are in this place
[12:16]where they're wondering, do I, what do I do now?
[12:18]So I've seen it tweak people's lives where they go through it,
[12:23]and they have a, oh, okay, this is what the problem was.
[12:25]This value gap needs to close,
[12:27]or I am a generalist, and I should be in a specialist job,
[12:30]or I wanna take this whole package
[12:32]and move it over to this industry.
[12:33]But some people really do end up blowing up their lives.
[12:37]And then the question becomes, well,
[12:39]can you do you have the courage?
[12:42]Is this the moment?
[12:44]And so I've seen every different outcome I've seen people,
[12:47]last night I was at a book event,
[12:49]and I was signing books,
[12:51]and somebody came up and he said,
[12:53]you totally changed my life.
[12:54]I was gonna go into, this was an MBA student.
[12:56]I was gonna go into X industry doing something,
[12:59]and now I'm chief staff at a tech company.
[13:01]And once I go over the shock of it
[13:04]and wrap my head around it, I was scared
[13:07]when I realized what my true purpose was.
[13:09]I have to say now that I've done it probably with people
[13:12]or heard about people doing it almost 5,000 times now.
[13:15]I would say the reaction is everything from exhilaration
[13:19]to fear, to wanting to postpone it for a while.
[13:23]But I've never had anybody go through it
[13:25]and say the process did not get me to something,
[13:28]as soon as I heard it, I knew it was the thing.
[13:31]People see it and they're like, yep, that's it.
[13:34]And then it's up to you, how much you wanna execute.
[13:37]I mean, sometimes students say to me, okay, I got it.
[13:40]I know how my purpose is, what's the first step?
[13:42]And I say, that's what the career office is for.
[13:44]You know what, I said the month away.
[13:45]I mean, there's a skill to that.
[13:48]You also show us how people might not be made to be managers,
[13:53]like there's a temperament.
[13:54]And sometimes being around lots of people
[13:58]is not in your skill set.
[13:59]I mean, we all know these things,
[14:00]but having a way to say, oh, maybe this job is not for me.
[14:03]You're helping someone turn it down
[14:05]because if you love to be alone in a room,
[14:08]maybe you don't wanna take the promotion
[14:09]where you have a whole team.
[14:10]Yeah, this is a little bit about aptitudes.
[14:12]I mean, so one thing that happens when you're young
[14:15]in your 20s and 30s and 40s,
[14:18]generally people tell you you should be a leader.
[14:20]There's like a halo over the word leader.
[14:22]I mean, I remember when my son was applying to like middle school
[14:26]and I remember them asking me in the interview process.
[14:28]Is he a leader?
[14:29]And it's like, he's 11 years old.
[14:32]You know, it's like, how do we know?
[14:34]And so there's this halo around leaders.
[14:36]And so what I do is I end up getting a lot of people
[14:38]who come into becoming you,
[14:39]who don't know what's exactly going on,
[14:42]but they feel like something is wrong.
[14:44]And I pretty early on diagnosis is people
[14:46]who were probably not meant to be natural,
[14:49]who were not, didn't want to be
[14:51]and really weren't meant to be aptitude wise leaders.
[14:54]They should be individual contributors.
[14:56]Or, you know, there's a lot of different things
[14:58]you can be that is not a leader.
[15:00]You can be a great team member.
[15:01]You can be a great follower, frankly.
[15:03]And, but the society and culture and organizations
[15:06]tend to put us on a conveyor belt
[15:08]towards this thing, leadership.
[15:09]And it's not for everybody.
[15:10]And so I developed a tool.
[15:12]This is career traits compass.
[15:13]It's on my website.
[15:14]It is for free, which assess you on four bundles
[15:17]of personality traits that will,
[15:20]and it's look no judgment.
[15:22]But it will say to you, okay, here's what the data is showing us
[15:25]on these traits, which I think are the ones that would be
[15:28]most aligned with environments that are high in ambiguity,
[15:32]high in acceleration of everything,
[15:35]low on boundaries, leadership type situations,
[15:38]whether that's your place or not.
[15:40]It's not for everybody leadership.
[15:42]And so I think that it's a one of the contributions
[15:44]of the book is to say, you know this about yourself.
[15:48]And there's no good or bad about it.
[15:49]There's just you and you are you.
[15:51]And you've got to find the kind of environment
[15:54]and work that fits you.
[15:56]And some of them you don't even need the entire quiz.
[15:58]Like I know that spatial relations is never going to be
[16:01]a skill of mine, whereas ideas can be easier.
[16:05]We all need to take stock.
[16:06]And I think that it's something people don't prioritize
[16:08]in a day to day life.
[16:09]Like let's just take stock of the things that come easily
[16:12]here come naturally.
[16:13]You know, shouldn't we have this is data about ourselves?
[16:15]Shouldn't know who we know who we are standing still.
[16:18]But we don't, right?
[16:19]Shouldn't we know what our values are?
[16:21]The other day I was running out of the room
[16:24]and somebody sort of said to me, hey, what's the name
[16:26]of your test again to find my values?
[16:28]And I told them how we could find it.
[16:30]And then I said to him, by the way, what do you think
[16:32]your values are now?
[16:33]And he kind of laughed sheepishly.
[16:35]And he said, well family of course.
[16:38]And friends for sure and love.
[16:42]And like this was a grown man, right?
[16:45]And I thought, oh, this is very familiar to me.
[16:47]Who among us, if I asked you to write down your values,
[16:50]because with great clarity, rank from one to 15,
[16:53]what your values?
[16:54]And don't you think this is data we should have?
[16:56]And we don't, and aptitudes is right behind
[16:59]because our brains are wired away or we figure it out.
[17:02]Eventually, if you're self aware and you've been watching
[17:06]yourself, you kind of figured out.
[17:07]But you don't really take stock of it.
[17:10]But this is very good information to have.
[17:12]Sometimes we do it more for our children
[17:14]than we do it for ourselves.
[17:16]So a good team exercise, too.
[17:18]Yeah, team members.
[17:20]See some knots.
[17:22]In the book, you talk about a more public moment
[17:26]of your career, where you lost your job
[17:28]based on falling in love with somebody who was separated,
[17:32]but not divorced, but people didn't know.
[17:34]Jack Welch, who many in the room may know who he was.
[17:37]But as you put in the book, people don't even know who he is.
[17:39]And you're like, really?
[17:40]No, I have students who say, how'd you meet Mr. Welch?
[17:41]And I'm like, oh my god, how young are you?
[17:44]I know they're very young, I mean, but it was 26 years ago,
[17:47]so.
[17:48]So how did you a, sort of follow your heart and go for it
[17:52]and take the risk and be rebound from the backlash?
[17:56]Well, there was no social media then.
[17:59]OK, so that was a big big, I mean,
[18:00]I don't know what would have happened to us.
[18:02]Had there been Twitter or anything in those days,
[18:04]it wasn't was pre and social media.
[18:06]So we fell in love, we met, we fell in love.
[18:08]He was separated, his wife was living in Italy
[18:10]with the gentleman she still with, and I was divorced.
[18:14]But it was not in the media that he was separated.
[18:17]And so for us, it was a surreal thing.
[18:19]I mean, there was quite a bit of shock about it.
[18:21]But, and I got fired.
[18:22]I would never happen today.
[18:24]And it would never happen today, but it did.
[18:27]And I was, I was, as a very good girl who'd always
[18:31]gotten A's and always gotten done everything,
[18:33]that she was supposed to do and graduated to Africa.
[18:36]This was like my first failure.
[18:37]And it was very, very public.
[18:39]And I remember Jack saying to me, like,
[18:42]get over yourself.
[18:43]He had been CEO for 25 years.
[18:44]And he said, you know, you go, prince to pig,
[18:46]prince to pig, prince to pig, prince,
[18:47]but you build, get built up, and then you come down.
[18:49]It's going to be fine.
[18:50]And I said to him, I'll never work again.
[18:53]No one will ever hire me again.
[18:55]I was crying and crying.
[18:56]And he, I remember, look, it felt very cruel.
[18:58]He laughed in my face.
[19:00]He said, you know, excuse me, get over it.
[19:03]And I was like, no.
[19:04]And then two days later, Gayle King from Oprah's,
[19:07]she was editor of Oprah magazine at that time called me.
[19:10]He said, why don't you come in and talk to us about working
[19:12]for us?
[19:13]And he just slapped his thigh and thought it was hysterical
[19:16]because I had been saying, oh, no, and life did go on.
[19:19]But it was a terrible injury.
[19:21]I don't want to minimize it.
[19:22]I was devastated.
[19:26]But you know, we pretty quickly afterwards got married.
[19:28]And then we became quite boring.
[19:30]We were like, you know, like people would see us out
[19:31]with the kids getting ice cream.
[19:33]And we just, we didn't feed the fire.
[19:35]We ended up writing books together and having a wonderful
[19:40]life together until it got very imminent.
[19:43]Even when he got sick was still a wonderful life is just
[19:47]different.
[19:48]But so, but it was terrible while it was going on.
[19:52]And I can only imagine what it would have been like
[19:55]if it happened today.
[19:56]It gives me a heart for anybody going through it.
[19:58]That's for sure.
[20:00]Like, while it was going on, there was some scandal going on
[20:03]with some rap star.
[20:04]And one of my kids said, can you believe such and such
[20:06]and such and such?
[20:07]And I said, I don't believe anything they say the papers.
[20:09]I mean, I was really, oh my gosh.
[20:12]So what did you learn about yourself through then?
[20:15]And also, it sounds like you had this really idyllic marriage
[20:19]in the way you talk about your husband.
[20:20]It's so amazing in the way you write about him in the book
[20:22]and everything.
[20:23]How can you share that?
[20:24]How can everybody find that type of joy?
[20:27]Is it something that can be taught?
[20:28]Or is it just chemistry?
[20:30]I have what might be good or bad news on this one, OK?
[20:34]So what I'm about to say is, like, oh, you may love it
[20:36]and you may hate it.
[20:37]Jack and I had the exact same values.
[20:41]If we had taken the values bridge test,
[20:44]our one through 15 would have been extremely high overlap, OK?
[20:49]I mean, kind of we tweaked.
[20:51]There would be a little tweak here and a little tweak there.
[20:55]And so I'd say that we got along.
[20:58]And it used to frighten the children.
[20:59]Like, they'd come to us and we were such a united force.
[21:03]And we sort of felt the same way about everything.
[21:05]And it made for a very happy marriage to tell you the truth.
[21:08]So sometimes we'll say, well, opposite to track.
[21:10]And I'm like, I don't know.
[21:12]I had one of those marriages before.
[21:14]John met Jack.
[21:15]And that did not work out.
[21:16]And he's a good friend of mine now.
[21:17]But it didn't work out.
[21:19]So I would say we found that joy.
[21:20]We did not particularly chase joy.
[21:22]We just loved each other and respected each other.
[21:25]And I think it just worked because we respected.
[21:30]We just wanted to be together.
[21:31]So I don't know.
[21:32]I've watched my kids get married.
[21:34]And actually, my daughter just, my youngest daughter,
[21:36]just met this, I think they're going to get married.
[21:39]They are going to get married.
[21:40]She just doesn't want to have the wedding part.
[21:42]I'm like, give me the wedding.
[21:44]But I don't care as long as they get married.
[21:45]But I think that my other children make fun of the fact
[21:50]or lovingly mock that they talk alike.
[21:53]They kind of look alike.
[21:55]They have all the same interests.
[21:56]And I'm like, yes.
[21:58]I understand.
[21:59]I like a big diversity of friends.
[22:01]If you looked at all of my girlfriends,
[22:02]and I'm so blessed to have so many girlfriends,
[22:04]there's a lot of difference among us.
[22:05]And my best friend, we argue all the time,
[22:08]because we have a lot of different political opinions
[22:09]and all sorts of stuff.
[22:11]But I think for a life partner, for us, what worked
[22:14]was this very strong overlap and values.
[22:18]Take it really good.
[22:19]So where are you today on the alignment yourself
[22:23]with your values and the life you're living?
[22:25]You know, I'd have to say I'm pretty aligned.
[22:28]Like every other person, like every other person
[22:30]there are things that I need to tweak.
[22:32]But I know my values really well.
[22:34]How could I not talk about this stuff day and night?
[22:38]And every once in a while, I'll catch myself
[22:40]making a decision out of expedience or out of expectations
[22:43]or because events are pushing me a certain way.
[22:45]And I will say, oh wait, I know my values.
[22:49]And I'm going to walk the talk.
[22:51]And I mean, I just did it recently.
[22:52]I mean, I made a different decision.
[22:53]I said, no, I'm not doing that because my values are x.
[22:55]And I'm going to go to something else.
[22:56]So I'd say my variance is pretty, pretty low.
[23:01]Amazing.
[23:01]Yeah.
[23:02]Susie, thank you so much.
[23:03]Hi, Susie.
[23:04]Hi, Susie.
[23:04]Thank you very much.
[23:06]Thank you.
[23:06]Thank you.
[23:08]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi,
[23:11]formerly momstone after time to read books.
[23:14]If you loved the show, tell a friend,
[23:16]leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens.
[23:19]And spread the word.
[23:21]Thanks so much.
[23:22]Oh, and buy the books.