Lake Bell, ALL ABOUT BRAINS: A Book About People
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[0:44]Lake Bell is the author of All About Brains, a book about people.
[0:48]Lake Bell is an award-winning filmmaker and actress.
[0:51]In 2013, she received a claim at the Sundance Film Festival for her debut feature in
[0:57]a world, which she wrote directed and acted in.
[1:00]Lake has won a myriad of awards, including the Waldo Salt Screenwriting Award, and in
[1:05]2017, she directed her second feature, I Do Until I Don't, which she also wrote and started.
[1:11]In addition to her expansive film and TV credits, Bell authored her critically acclaimed
[1:15]audiobook, entitled Inside Voice, My Obsession with How He Sound, with Pushkin Industries.
[1:21]For nearly 10 years, she has served as a board member of Women and Film, a nonprofit
[1:25]organization whose mission is to support the success of female peers in the entertainment
[1:30]industry.
[1:31]Born in Manhattan, Lake now lives in Los Angeles with her two children and rescue animals.
[1:35]Welcome, Lake.
[1:36]Thank you so much for coming on totally booked at zibi to talk about All About Brains,
[1:40]a book about people.
[1:42]Congrats.
[1:43]Thank you so much for having me.
[1:44]I love the rainbow behind your head.
[1:46]I like the world.
[1:47]Thank you.
[1:48]Thank you.
[1:49]You know, the other night was the first night that marked my seeing, you know, the physical
[1:55]element.
[1:56]You know, I have all the kind of proofs and everything.
[1:58]So it was quite special to open it up and I haven't shown it to my children yet.
[2:02]So.
[2:03]Oh, my God.
[2:04]Yes, actual, you know, hardcover, but so I got, I got to show my kids before you did.
[2:09]Yes, it seems wrong.
[2:11]That seems like it shouldn't happen that way.
[2:14]Yeah, it's a lot.
[2:15]You know, we, we have a two home household with my kids.
[2:20]So they were daddy's house and, you know, so when they come to my house, but we have
[2:26]like a very, like, kind of extraordinarily loving, co-parenting, unusual synergy between
[2:37]our two homes as it were, but anyway, so yes, this book is wholly inspired by the little
[2:43]children we're talking about right now, which are my daughter Nova and my son Aussie.
[2:48]I include him in that, even though this is a book about neurodivergence and neurodiversity.
[2:56]And yet Nova, my daughter has, has epilepsy and Aussie has had to live with a sister with
[3:06]epilepsy.
[3:07]So equally, there is a unique experience in their childhood, you know, 100%.
[3:13]Yeah.
[3:14]Well, I have to say I read this to my son, who's 10 last night.
[3:18]He, whenever there was a word like, I can't remember which one where I would say it out loud
[3:23]and I'm thinking to myself, I wonder if he knows what that is.
[3:25]He would say like, what is such and such and then you would say, what is such and such
[3:28]in the book?
[3:29]And it was like perfect.
[3:30]Like you read his mind and then after we kept going through page by page because you
[3:33]have it that there's a group of kids sitting in a circle and the teacher is sort of facilitating
[3:38]this conversation.
[3:39]Everybody shares with special and they all have something neurodiversity related to share.
[3:45]So as I went one person to the next, finally, my son was like, what are the odds that
[3:49]everyone would have something at the show and tell them that that's a pretty time.
[3:55]And I was like, well, I don't know.
[3:57]Maybe it's a special school.
[3:58]Just go with it.
[3:59]It's fine.
[4:00]Yeah.
[4:01]So what's interesting about that is that I remember, you know, he's, he's making a good observation,
[4:06]which is, you know, of course, it for your listeners, the book does involve a group of
[4:12]children kind of sharing on on share day when you think, sure, you can share your dinosaur
[4:19]that farts or you could also share something kind of that's experiential, which is, oh,
[4:25]I have a thing, you know, I have a unique experience of how I walk through life and how
[4:32]I see the world and that can be a share as well.
[4:36]And so obviously, you know, as, as I have a household with a daughter with a unique brain.
[4:44]And then my son is is dabbling with dyslexia as it were.
[4:49]And I personally have dyslexia and felt it in school and at these ages so much because
[4:56]this is where you are crafting your ability to express yourself and to ingest information
[5:06]and so it is pivotal to have a pediatric neurodivergence, you know, that is sometimes hindering
[5:15]and then sometimes really kind of bolstering your ability to do certain things.
[5:20]And so I see that in Nova, certainly.
[5:25]And I in myself too, because I was dyslexic and I grew up in a really rigorous, all girl
[5:31]school that, you know, academics were so, you know, that pridefully difficult.
[5:40]And of course, I, it was a time where, you know, if you were dyslexic, you know, you're
[5:46]kind of in, I was literally in something called like the slow class or something like that,
[5:51]you know, like the slow readers like, I can't believe that that was the way it was back
[5:56]then.
[5:57]It wasn't that long ago.
[5:59]Right.
[6:00]And I was like, you know, when I remember it so well, I felt so dumb, honestly, I did.
[6:08]And, you know, I've grown up to become a writer, which is, you know, when I write screenplays
[6:17]or I write, you know, articles or, you know, now books, you know, it's interesting that
[6:23]it really forced me to, I move slower in, in how I read, but it means I picture everything.
[6:30]So as a filmmaker, when I'm reading something and I'm writing something, I'm writing
[6:35]it with pictures all over, like just robust, multidimensional, you know, and so that's just
[6:43]how it shows up for me because I have to move a little slower because, for instance,
[6:46]of just didn't thinking about spelling and how things are crafted and things like that.
[6:51]Right.
[6:52]Nova actually, you know, fun fact, and she will share that she has a cocktail of three
[6:59]of the things that you could tell yourself, there were, she actually has three things
[7:04]from here.
[7:05]She has ADHD, epilepsy, and dyslexia.
[7:08]So she's got a little shaker in her mind.
[7:12]We have these scattered.
[7:13]We have it, some cocktails.
[7:14]There's a few.
[7:15]I have four kids.
[7:16]I have some, I have four kids, there's like no one gets out on skates, just basically.
[7:20]So, yeah.
[7:21]Yeah, but it's true that if you're sitting in a group of children in our age and in our
[7:26]ability to decipher and decode and understand the brain better, that yeah, there's a
[7:33]likelihood there is some shade of anxiety or some kind of diversity from a neurological
[7:42]perspective.
[7:43]And it's like, I look at it because I look around at my friends and I and when we sit
[7:48]around people ourselves as grownups, we all have a sprinkle of something as well.
[7:52]A hundred percent.
[7:53]Yes.
[7:54]Actually, my son reading this was like, wait, doesn't everyone have anxiety?
[7:59]I was like, basically.
[8:00]I mean, no, but you know, and Nova also is so much of an anxiety juice, but the, you
[8:06]know, what, there is so much comorbidity in all of these, right?
[8:10]Because when you're going through the world and with essentially, you know, your
[8:14]hands tied behind your back, right, you're at a disadvantage in some ways, it can be
[8:19]anxiety provoking.
[8:20]And then you end up with like that since part of your brain being more developed, you
[8:24]know.
[8:25]Yeah.
[8:26]And I think that my real goal with this was, you know, I remember when Nova was, you
[8:32]didn't have to like have a formal diagnosis, but certainly because when you have to
[8:35]see your disorder, you're like, you're having seizures.
[8:38]And so there's your diagnosis right in their house, like because epilepsy is just as
[8:44]we, as many know, is just kind of a fancy word for saying, you get seizures in some
[8:50]way, shape or form.
[8:53]And you suffer from a condition where your brain misfires and causes these electrical
[8:59]charges that cause a multitude of different types of seizure activity, convulsions, sometimes
[9:06]they can be absent, they kind of look like you're, you're checked out for a beat where
[9:12]your eyes just kind of stop and stare and then come back.
[9:16]So what I really admired in Nova's journey is going from a place where seizures are a big
[9:27]bad scary thing that are anxiety causing and helping, I remember it Scott and I, Max
[9:34]and I, when she first fell from her big first seizure, first she had feebrel seizures and
[9:41]just for people to know this.
[9:43]So those are fever seizures and, you know, those are pretty common.
[9:47]They're not as extraordinary, you know, people, kids who have a spike in fever, it's so
[9:53]scary and they have a grandma's seizure and they fall over and oh my god, you know, but
[9:57]they grow out of that at six.
[10:00]result, usually. And so we were waiting because Nova was someone who got
[10:04]fever seizures and boy, were they just horrific and so scared?
[10:07]What, well, how did you feel seeing your, your daughter have a seizure?
[10:10]So, so I can't explain. I mean, only, you know, I have friends who have,
[10:18]you know, I had, there's a community in the, in the epileptic in parents who
[10:23]have children with epilepsy and whatnot. But thank you for asking that question.
[10:27]It's so traumatizing. I can't even tell you, you feel utterly out of
[10:31]control. I've learned so much about seizures though. And, you know, the
[10:36]one thing I can say is that once you understand that the seizure itself is not
[10:42]the monster that is hurting your child, that it's an occurrence that is
[10:48]happening, that's not hurting her or him, that it just needs to get through that
[10:54]wave and then the other side of the wave, they're just going to be tired.
[10:57]But the, the actual seizure, seizure itself is not the knife, you know? So once
[11:03]you realize that you're, you know, your anxiety as a parent can kind of like
[11:10]settle because you understand that there's a timestamp that it's going to
[11:14]happen and then it ends. But there are constant little pockets of ambiguity,
[11:20]right? So if it, if it, if this is the one seizure that's going to go from
[11:25]over two minutes, then you have to administer a drug that's like a, a
[11:31]value that's an emergency thing that we have in the house that you have to put
[11:36]through the rear or it's like a suppository type thing to get it to stop.
[11:40]Because if it goes up to form it, like we never had that knockwood, you know,
[11:46]but that, that's when you're like, for the brain, that's too much activity,
[11:51]you need to stop it and it's tracks. But with smaller seizures, you don't
[11:55]need to. It's not a problem. But it's not like you're turning on the timer on
[11:59]your iPhone. Is it? I mean, do you do that now? I mean, now she's currently in
[12:04]Let's all knockwood. She's currently seizure. So she, for the past two years,
[12:08]and this is the other thing about brains, all about brains is that they are
[12:13]wonderfully unpredictable. Like, it's like your brain, my brain, and Nova's
[12:19]brain who has activity, we could have a picture, we could do an MRI and things
[12:24]could look, the MRI could look pretty similar. But our G's will look different.
[12:30]You know, so it's, it's interesting. And I speak about this in the book a little
[12:33]bit that like brains themselves. It's not like, you know, Nova's brain is
[12:36]like blue and, you know, sparkly. It's, it's really, they all kind of can even in
[12:42]the MRI picture look similar. Or so different. And yet you and I kind of like,
[12:48]we were, we speak and relate and, and intellectualize the same way. You know, so
[12:53]when she would fall into seizure, I think the only place where it really changed
[12:59]for me as a parent was when she started having seizures where, by the way, just
[13:05]little fun fact. So you've got grandmalls, which are the big fancy, big
[13:08]gahunas where they fall over, they become unconscious and convuls. And
[13:14]they're, they can't, you, your main job there is just to make sure where they
[13:19]felt like you'd want to make sure that their head didn't hit anything. But
[13:22]there's no just to kind of distill you don't have to put like a wallet in
[13:26]someone's mouth. That's not a thing, you know, the tongue and all that. It's
[13:30]more about getting them on their side and making sure that their air
[13:34]passage is straight. You're just like, just breathe through it, you know,
[13:39]let them get through it physically and get them on their side.
[13:42]So there was one moment where Nova, I asked Nova, can you hear me when you go
[13:48]under in the station? Can you hear mommy when, because I started in the beginning,
[13:54]I'd be like, you know, you know, and that was initially. And then once she said to me,
[14:05]she goes, yeah, I can hear you sometimes. I can hear you. And I was like, oh, okay.
[14:14]And so then I think I'm an actor.
[14:18]The next time, you know, I remember there's one time she's in my closet
[14:22]when I had my new way of how it was going to take on this on.
[14:27]And she was looking at something and then she came to me with her eyes, like,
[14:31]it's happened. It's coming. The wave is coming. And I was like, okay, and I took her and I
[14:37]held her on her side as she seized. And I was, I was like, you are having sparkles in your brain right
[14:46]now. You're doing great. It's almost done. Yeah, you're doing great honey. We're almost there,
[14:53]you know, and I held her. And by the way, it was really good for me too. Good lesson for all of
[14:58]us. And it cut my limbic system, you know, so you just calm me down. Thank you for that. I'm just
[15:04]going to replay this seed whenever I need. Yeah. And then she came out of it. And, you know,
[15:11]I had trust in the process and she had trust in the pot. And it was so much better.
[15:17]So she kind of taught me that by saying like, I can hear you. Well, but really and truly
[15:25]Nova in her when Scott. So when Scott and I started this whole process with her, you know,
[15:33]she was so little, you know, she was one and a half when she had her first seizure,
[15:37]feebrel seizure. And, you know, we did. Scott was with her for that one. And he thought she
[15:44]was passing. Like it was just horrible. You don't know how I'm coming from and she's turning blue
[15:49]and you're not able to understand it. And it's, you're like, this is it. And, and then as we
[15:58]understood it more, you know, we, some, the mom kept yelling for the ambulance every time a
[16:05]a girl and mom would come. But then we started to learn more. And then, you know, then when we
[16:10]were trying to get rid of them, we had to get Nova on like big, big girl medications. And that's
[16:16]hard for a family. And, you know, where you go, gosh, here's a family that's like, is that
[16:21]cafe to organic? You know, and then all of a sudden, you know, here's a huge pharmaceutical
[16:28]antiseasure drug that I'm going to give my five years, six-year-old. And we worked with CBD,
[16:36]which actually did manage medical grade CBD, actually did have extraordinary management in the
[16:43]Grand Mall seizures, but kept the, but we couldn't get rid of the myoclonic seizures, fancy word,
[16:49]for kind of stutter seizures that are more, they would, if I'm talking to you right now like that.
[16:57]And it would show up in that kind of, you're trying to express yourself. Right. So kept hitting
[17:03]and also a huge proponent in her anxiety. When you're trying to express yourself, this is a
[17:09]six-year-old, you know, and you knew that if you cluster, if you get a cluster of a lot of little ones,
[17:14]then a big who knows coming. So then that adds to the anxiety. Right. So when we first were talking
[17:24]to Nova about it, she would have a seizure and say, there was a certain point in her little like
[17:31]epileptic career where she'd say, I'm sorry after she had a seizure. Oh, no, no, because I think the
[17:40]general consensus was like, we're fighting the seizure. We're going to figure it out. We'll get rid
[17:45]of them. Right. And we didn't know any better at that time. Just we just were, how do we get rid
[17:52]of them? Maybe try this medicine. Try that medicine. Right. And when they wouldn't go, she was like,
[17:57]sorry. And that really caused us to reframe. I was like, we need to have a family meeting. Like,
[18:04]and Scott and I came together. And we're like, okay, did some research. And it was thought that
[18:10]Joan of Arc had epilepsy among other people too. Like, I'd grow all in love, but we don't need to
[18:15]talk about it. And also, I think Napoleon, but he was really difficult. So the point is a lot of
[18:21]major leaders and warriors had it. And so I said, what if, you know, I'm going to sit her down.
[18:27]And I'm going to say, no, here's the deal. Your brain is so unique that it has,
[18:37]it worked so hard and has such sparkly magic that it causes the seizures. And you're not alone.
[18:44]I'll tell you who else. And then I started talking about Joan of Arc and all these amazing
[18:49]writers and thinkers and leaders, you know, and, and I was like, so, like,
[18:56]see charts. Let me know, like, when you feel one of those stutters,
[19:00]or because it just means you're a little smarter today, you know,
[19:04]and I was like, so then it turned into this thing. She would have one and she would go,
[19:09]mom, because we'd have to log them to like, mom, I just had a seizure. I just had a stutter one,
[19:15]and we called them a mini. I had a mini, and I was like, look at you.
[19:20]I don't know, all cylinders today. You're a little bit got some sparkle in your step.
[19:27]She was like, you know, it started. And so then I heard her talking to her friends in a
[19:33]shared day. And it was during COVID. So they were all on zoom. And, you know, everyone was sharing
[19:41]things. And because the epilepsy foundation has these little badges that you get for advocacy,
[19:47]and for, you know, teaching about, you know, other kids about seizures and things like that,
[19:52]she wanted to get one of those. And so at shared day, she said, well, yes, I have to share, you know,
[19:57]and, and slow.
[20:00]she said, I have epilepsy and everyone, all the other kid, what's that? You know, she lives,
[20:05]it means I get seizures. And what's the seizure, you know, and the kids in this incredible
[20:11]peer-to-peer conversation happened and thank God the teacher kind of let it occur where Nova
[20:17]described that she had these electrical charges in her brain that misfired and caused
[20:24]convulsions. And it's, she's like, it's just kind of like sparkly magic. And everyone has a brain
[20:31]that has unique qualities, but that hers does this thing. And she would talk to about General
[20:37]Park and she talked about how, you know, she just had some ownership over it. And it was the first time
[20:45]where I just, I mean, of course I was crying in the sidelines. And then, you know, she got her badge
[20:52]and she felt definitely empowered. And her friends were really understanding, asked good questions.
[21:01]And it totally unafraid. And I think that there is stigma even today on neurodiversity and different
[21:11]types of conditions that the brain can imbue. And I was very proud of her in that moment. I was
[21:17]proud of the children who were listening, you know, and then, you know, it was this kind of share
[21:24]of, you know, one of her friends has dyslexia. And it, you know, I remember the parent being like,
[21:31]well, we don't like to talk about it too much. We don't want her to think that she had, you know,
[21:35]but the truth is is like, Nova's went to a school where everyone was neurodiverse and had dyslexia
[21:42]ADHD and all of them together and dysgraphia, you know, and I asked that school, actually I was like,
[21:50]how do you handle that in terms of, you know, there's a fear I think as parents to make your kids
[21:57]feel like they're, you know, you're telling them they have a dessert, they have a disability of
[22:04]some sort. You're telling them that they have a disadvantage rather. And, you know, and will that hinder
[22:11]them, you know, and their philosophy was just kind of the opposite. It's like, no, it's just everybody
[22:17]kind of has the thing, you know, lots of people have stuff and that's okay, you just have to learn
[22:21]how to adapt so that you can do the things you want to do in life. And so yeah, it's just a fancy word
[22:26]called, you know, dyslexia is just how cool that's, if we're sort of the scientific positioning we have
[22:32]in our society is that we get to define them and then help diagnose a little bit then also live with
[22:39]like how do I adjust how I read in order to just read all the books I want to read, but just
[22:44]I have to say, you know, it's like, it allows you to feel in control to have more understanding about
[22:51]who you are, you know, and how your body works and how your brain works. So I liked it, I felt better,
[22:57]you know, hearing that certainly in her learning career. I mean, it's essentially like
[23:04]your parenting strategy became something that she adopted and then it all became this book.
[23:10]So that's like an A plus on the mom day. You know, we don't always get it right 100% of the time,
[23:18]but like moments like that, now you have it documented. Totally. And I feel, you know, I
[23:26]I think the like little lake too, like, you know, wanted this book as a kid being dyslexic and
[23:36]and also being just like feeling a little shame around that or something, you know, being,
[23:41]I have a lot of friends who are writers now and I'm now a voracious reader, you know, but I was
[23:47]really scared to read like just books and I know that's a lot of your all, your name really felt
[23:52]intimidated about it because I was slower. And I felt like, you know, my mom is this extraordinary
[23:59]woman who is so smart and so inspiring on so many levels and she really shows up,
[24:07]talk every day, you know, it is like an Olympic reader. So she can, when I was growing up,
[24:15]she'd be, you know, worn piece in an afternoon. Really just go with her. And I used to ask her,
[24:23]how do you do that? You know, and sure, of course, I was like, my brain just does not work like
[24:30]your brain. She she's able to kind of like just fly through. And I just was very aware of that
[24:37]very, very young. And now with my children, especially because my son has his mom's dyslexia and
[24:46]my daughter has as well. She's now reading so well and so fast and so enjoying it. But yeah,
[24:53]I try to read with them, but also just around them. Like, I was like, I'm doing a book,
[24:59]like you love them to bring a book in. I was like, I need my reading time. So, you know, so that
[25:04]they can just see it. I agree. I think that's the most important thing. People are always like,
[25:09]how do I get my kids to read more? And it's like, well, do you read? Exactly. You know, like,
[25:13]you know, how do they eat healthy food? Well, what do you, you know, it's the same thing. Like,
[25:17]we have to model in part of the things that we really want. And then it gives, because I was
[25:21]seeing, you know, like reading all about you. And I was like, then it gives them an opportunity.
[25:25]It gives you an opportunity as parents to just like read a book.
[25:29]Oh, yeah. I'm so lucky. I'm like, I'm reading this book. And then sometimes I'll be like,
[25:34]you know, reading my book. And I'm like, okay, this is crazy. I cannot believe this woman is
[25:38]doing this. So, because you know, because sometimes when you're reading a book, you need to talk to someone
[25:42]so then I'm like, oh my God. So in this chapter, I'm so frustrated with her. She's making such bad
[25:47]decisions. Well, what is she doing? I'm like, well, first of all, she was dating the sky.
[25:53]I am the same exactly. And I love, oh my gosh, I was reading Broken Country, which just came out,
[25:59]which is so good. Anyway, there's like a trial scene. And the verdict was coming. And I was like,
[26:04]my heart was pounding. And I couldn't. So I literally gave it to my son who's like, my one
[26:08]huge reader. And I was like, you have to read it. What's the verdict? I can't, I can't look.
[26:14]And then he read it out loud. And I was like, no.
[26:17]I love that. So what's your favorite like art? Yeah, just side part. What are your, what are you
[26:24]reading in fiction right now that you really love that? That's one I just finished that I love
[26:32]Broken Country by Claire Leslie Hall. And also Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey, I just
[26:38]finished. There both, there's a, there's some sort of mystery to it. Like you're trying to figure
[26:45]something out all along. Do you mind saying second one again, please? Sure, Wild Dark Shore.
[26:50]What? And that has like an environmental component. It's not something I normally, right?
[26:55]You know, like, oh, it's an abandoned island in the middle of nowhere. It's an environmental
[26:59]spin. And it's kind of slow start, but man, I was like flipping this pages. Did you read
[27:04]right objects? No, I did not. It was Ruby Todd that I thought that was
[27:09]wild. And that I just, you know, it's like, you know, fiction. And then I did Long Island
[27:14]compromise. Did you read? Oh, I love that. I love that. That was dark, very dark. But yeah, I know,
[27:20]but fun. Yeah. Okay, cool. So I will thank you for the side part. Thank you for the side part.
[27:26]That was great. Yeah, this is really interesting. I'm so excited to take this book to to like,
[27:33]you know, I'm interested to see how it plays in in schools and stuff, you know, because I think
[27:40]yeah, it's going to be great. Like, I'm going to give this to all the kids schools. They
[27:45]everybody should know. And when you learn it early, then you're just like, oh, yeah, okay. So then
[27:49]when you see it in seventh grade, it's like not that big deal as if it's absolutely the lack of
[27:53]knowledge. I did also feel like in making the book, I wanted to make sure that it felt
[27:59]it wasn't like somebody's are different. You know, it's like, I wanted to be like, no, there's
[28:04]these kids and they're really kids. And they really have the real word is, you know, autism,
[28:12]you know, the real word is dyslexia or whatever. ADHD, let's talk about it. Right. And let's
[28:18]let's acknowledge that there's a lot of super high functioning and magical people who
[28:27]imbue the same diversities. And, and PS, this isn't only good for kids. Like, there are a lot
[28:33]of grown ups who can use this. I know. So, and I can think of it for you. So, I mean, that's
[28:39]why it's a good, I guess, like, read it to your kid kind of thing, you know. And, and yeah, I do have
[28:44]just, I'm excited about it. And I feel like Nova, who's going to come with me to some of the
[28:51]press hits on, will be able to be proud to, to sort of speak her truths and stuff like,
[28:59]what you should do a story time at my bookstore, aren't you in LA? I'm well, I'm coming to New York,
[29:03]you're in New York, right? I'm in New York now, but my bookstores in LA. Oh, yes, I'd to that
[29:08]Santa Monica. Yeah, I would love that. And, you know, we, and Nova King joined, but I will also be
[29:13]in New York just FYI. Oh, okay. And an HBO series there for like, oh, oh, amazing. So, if there's
[29:20]any like fun bookie. Oh, yeah, let's do some in New York. That'd be great. Well, thank you so much.
[29:26]Okay. Thank you. I think you also can say for now. This was amazing. The book is amazing.
[29:30]And all about brains, a book about people really awesome. Congratulations. Thank you.
[29:39]I want to be on your book club. We've heard my book. So nice to meet you. Okay. All right,
[29:48]thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi, formerly momstone. I have time to read books.
[29:53]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens. And
[30:00]And spread the word. Thanks so much. Go and buy the books.