Adeena Sussman, SHABBAT: Recipes and Rituals from My Table to Yours
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[0:44]Adina Sussman is the author of Shabbat, a New York Times best-selling cookbook, Shabbat,
[0:50]recipes, and rituals from my table to yours, which was released in September of 2023.
[0:56]It's the follow-up to Sababa, which was named a best-fall 2019 cookbook by the New York
[1:01]Times, Bon Appetit, and Food and Wine.
[1:04]The co-author of 15 cookbooks, Adina's three most recent collaborations, including
[1:08]cravings, and cravings hungry for more with Chrissy Teigen, or New York Times best-sellers.
[1:13]A lifelong visitor to Israel, who has been writing about that country's food culture
[1:17]for almost 20 years, Adina lives, cooks, and writes in Tel Aviv, where she lives in the
[1:22]shadow of that city's caramel market with her husband, Jay Chauvin.
[1:26]You can follow her on Instagram at Adina Sussman.
[1:29]Welcome, Adina.
[1:30]I'm so glad to have you here, and totally booked with Sibi, and we were already just chatting
[1:34]for a while, but now for the official podcast as the author of Shabbat and Sababa, and
[1:42]just such a force in this whole world of food and Judaism, and everything.
[1:47]It's really wonderful of you to come on, so thank you.
[1:50]Thank you for having me.
[1:51]It's the honor to be here.
[1:52]And I feel like we know each other better than we do, because I think others and many
[1:57]intersecting Venn diagram, the friends and people over a short time, and I'm glad I
[2:03]got to meet you in person before we're doing the podcast in Toronto, so thank you so much
[2:07]for having me.
[2:08]And by the way, I don't even think I told you this.
[2:09]When you came, so when we saw each other by the AV little room over there, I dropped my
[2:14]jacket on the side, because I was holding it, and I wanted to give you a hug and say hello
[2:18]or whatever.
[2:19]And then after the event ended in the synagogue, I came back to get my jacket, and
[2:24]I had fallen in this garbage can, but the garbage can was full of water.
[2:28]So I went and pull out my coat, and it was like soaked, and then I didn't have a coat,
[2:32]and it was so cold in Toronto, and I was like, oh my gosh, anyway.
[2:35]So then we replaced my coat, so now when I wear my coat, I think about you.
[2:38]You didn't know that, but it's true.
[2:40]Yeah.
[2:41]Okay.
[2:42]Okay.
[2:43]Well, your cookbooks are amazing.
[2:44]You're amazing.
[2:45]Why don't you just tell people a little bit, go back, and like, where did this whole thing
[2:50]come from?
[2:51]How did you start writing cookbooks?
[2:52]How did you get into food?
[2:54]Just go all the way back to how it all started, if you don't much.
[2:57]Okay.
[2:58]Yeah.
[2:59]I mean, I've always been a writer since I was a kid, I started like a, you know, a
[3:03]typewritten newspaper in the fourth grade called Jews in the News, and the school that
[3:07]would, you know, have like a readership of two, my parents.
[3:11]And, you know, with, you know, high school newspaper, of course, and study communications,
[3:17]and always loved cooking, you know, from a young age was cooking with my whom she worked,
[3:22]and she had us helping out a lot in the kitchen, and we were in, I grew up with
[3:26]a servant, Jewish home.
[3:28]And so we were always cooking, the Shabbat was a huge central part of our cooking.
[3:32]So starting on Wednesday, we were, the family was all involved in kind of getting everything
[3:35]ready.
[3:36]And so like, there was always a real sense of the intersection of cooking and hospitality.
[3:39]But, you know, when I graduated from high school back in 1988, culinary school was not
[3:44]really a viable option for like, you know, a good student from a, you know, decent high
[3:50]school.
[3:51]You know, you just went to college.
[3:52]So I remember I thought about it briefly for a minute, but at the time it was considered
[3:56]a vocational school.
[3:57]Now I think it's amazing that, you know, kids can go straight to culinary school out
[4:01]of college, and they did then too, but that it's a more widespread option for people.
[4:05]So I went to college study communications and then moved to Israel after college for five
[4:09]years, worked in television, and it was around that time that this idea that I could work
[4:15]in food kind of started, kept bubbling to the surface, because food media was becoming,
[4:20]it was like the heyday of print magazines, like Epicurean magazines, but also at the same
[4:26]time, food television was becoming a big deal and this thing called the internet happened,
[4:32]opened up the world.
[4:33]And I really, I did have this idea that at some point I would love to figure out a way to
[4:37]work at the intersection of, of cooking and publishing.
[4:41]And so I moved to New York actually at age 25 from Israel, where I had worked in TV and
[4:47]started freelancing for places like Time Out New York.
[4:50]I was doing like little capsule restaurant reviews for $10 dollars to get clips.
[4:57]And I was temping at a media research company and eventually through my work at this media
[5:01]research company where it became an exact, account executive selling media research.
[5:06]I got a job at Gourmet Magazine as a copywriter on the publishing side of the magazine.
[5:10]So writing all these advertorials, like special advertising sections and really getting
[5:15]to know publishing from the inside and like many times in my culinary career, like I had
[5:20]the moment where I was like, that's a job, you know, like I, there were just so many things
[5:25]that I didn't know were careers that I learned just by doing them.
[5:28]So someone took a chance on me at Gourmet, then I went to culinary school and came out of
[5:33]culinary school about 20 years ago from right now and started doing a lot of what's
[5:36]we call recipe developing, a woman named Ellie Krieger, who had a healthy cooking show
[5:41]on the food network and wrote some best selling cookbooks hired me to help her develop
[5:46]the recipes for her books like another time that someone took a chance on me more because
[5:51]of a personal personality click, then because I was necessarily the most qualified person,
[5:57]which is something that has happened to me many times in my, you should not, don't
[6:01]say that.
[6:02]I'm sure you were.
[6:03]No, I was qualified, but it wasn't the most qualified, but I say it because I think that
[6:09]in work and life, like your soft skills and your, the way you are with people is as important
[6:15]as just having talents, like a lot of people have talents, but being a mention, being curious
[6:21]and being humble and asking a lot of questions and, you know, all those things like
[6:25]are things that I take with me even to this day.
[6:28]I think people saw my genuine curiosity, you know, about about food.
[6:33]I got out of, I got out of gourmet at 34 and started my freelance career, which is not old,
[6:39]but when you think about, you know, people today who are starting out as food influencers
[6:43]at age 70, you know, it's just sort of a different, I was just running to do as much
[6:47]as I could and I was recipe developing and I was a food styling assistant on photo shoots
[6:53]and I was doing catering and I was doing meal prep for people's kitchens and I was still
[6:57]doing marketing writing and I was a travel writer and I was just like, I was like,
[7:01]you're a freelancer person, you know, when you were at Gourmet, was it in the Ruth
[7:06]Rekold days?
[7:07]Yeah.
[7:08]Okay.
[7:09]And even though I was on the marketing side of the magazine, I sort of broke that wall
[7:13]that, you know, the publishing versus advertising side and I made friends with editors
[7:18]and when I left the magazine, actually I left with a freelance assignment.
[7:21]I wrote an article about Yamanite Jewish cooking in Israel that was really helped launch
[7:25]my freelance career as a food writer and that was also the time that I really started
[7:29]drilling down on cookbooks like I was reading cookbooks like novels and I kept seeing
[7:35]this woman's name on all the books that I was reading and I was like, who is this person,
[7:38]Melissa Clark and why is her name on all of these other chefs cookbooks and that was another
[7:42]one of those.
[7:43]That's a job like cookbook co-author and a light bulb went off for me that I felt like
[7:49]that was a job that I would be good at because I loved to write.
[7:52]At that point I had quite a few years of culinary editorial experience under my belt.
[7:59]So I started pursuing the idea in my own mind of doing that and I got hooked up with an
[8:05]agent in 2010 who started getting me jobs as a cookbook co-author and that's what I started
[8:12]was doing for about seven years until my own sort of thing happened.
[8:19]So I wrote a lot of cookbooks in a really short time for other people with other people.
[8:23]So what does that look like?
[8:25]Are you in a professional kitchen testing out all the recipes or are you, do you have
[8:30]the recipes and you write them, like what is that?
[8:33]It depends like you know with Ellie Krieger for instance when I worked with her she had,
[8:38]she was working out of her home for the first few years.
[8:40]I eventually had like a studio kitchen but when I started co-authoring cookbooks I mean
[8:46]if a professional kitchen is a tiny, you know 20 square foot New York City kitchen with
[8:51]a tiny countertop that belongs to a dean assessment and that's the professional kitchen
[8:55]that I was doing.
[8:56]Everything I bought, you know every wall, every pop rack was hung from the ceiling.
[9:02]The spices were on the wall, you know I maximized every ounce of space but eventually
[9:06]when I started doing sort of bigger jobs like I eventually sort of co-authoring cookbooks
[9:11]with Chrissy Tegan and like that was an unusual situation where I went to move in with
[9:17]her in LA and lived with her in John and Beverly Hills for three times every time I did
[9:21]a cookbook so I've lived with them for about a year at this point because I've done three
[9:24]books with them.
[9:25]Wow and those were true collaboration books where we're sort of sit falling all these
[9:30]all day.
[9:31]I'm in the next room whether I'm resting or working out in the kitchen or on the living
[9:36]room in pajamas or whatever and we're writing cooking and collaborating together but
[9:40]there should be honest other jobs where I did everything lock stock and barrel and like
[9:46]the author put their name on the book like at the end.
[9:49]I would say that as my career progressed I became less interested in those jobs because
[9:53]I always wanted to be learning and have it be like a true collaboration but some of the
[9:57]earlier jobs where, you know, I think.
[10:00]Again, like me learning on the job,
[10:01]I always people always ask me if it's worth going
[10:03]to culinary school and I say yes,
[10:05]but really like the 90% of what I learned.
[10:07]I've learned just through working.
[10:08]But yes, the culinary, the recipe developing process
[10:11]is very technical, like I sort of liken it
[10:13]to computer coding, you know, you're like creating
[10:15]a program with lines of code.
[10:17]Like I know if I cook a certain onion a certain way
[10:20]at a certain temperature with a certain pan
[10:23]in a certain kind of oil for a certain amount of time.
[10:25]It yields a certain result and that's like one,
[10:27]I have like thousands of those little nuggets in my head
[10:31]and I can sort of visualize the recipe
[10:35]and then being creative is about filling in all the gaps
[10:38]and sort of varying the program essentially, you know?
[10:40]So like there is like a technically a right way
[10:43]to, you know, make bread rise.
[10:46]But it's about how you, what flour you use
[10:49]and what seasonings you use and, you know,
[10:52]what size is the bread and all the different other things
[10:54]that can go into it.
[10:55]So it's very technical and very creative.
[10:57]And then what I love is that I get to then bring the recipes
[11:01]to life through my writing and through storytelling.
[11:04]And, you know, I think that really good
[11:05]and cookbooks are kind of like good novels.
[11:07]They have a story arc and more and more people are looking
[11:11]to cookbooks for that story element
[11:13]as much as the recipe is because as recipes become
[11:16]so readily available online and through social media,
[11:19]you know, what value can a cookbook add?
[11:21]I think it's like really digging deep into someone's perspective.
[11:25]There's history, there's story, there identity,
[11:28]there culture and how that manifests itself through food.
[11:31]And I know that those are the books
[11:32]that I've always admired and tried to write, you know.
[11:37]Yeah, that's amazing.
[11:38]There was someone I interviewed recently,
[11:40]not in the food space at all.
[11:41]And I said something like, what do you like to read?
[11:44]And they said, I literally have a stack of cookbooks
[11:46]next to my bed.
[11:47]And every night that's all I want to read
[11:49]is I read cookbooks and now I have a huge cookbook collection.
[11:52]I was like, that's amazing.
[11:53]I love that.
[11:55]You know, it used to be, I mean, we're both old enough
[11:59]to remember the time when there were 20,
[12:01]there were 20, like amazing culinary magazines every month
[12:04]that you could subscribe to at your home.
[12:06]Now there are like three.
[12:08]And I think a cookbook is like a relatively inexpensive entry
[12:11]point into that, you know,
[12:12]used to flip through it for the beautiful pictures
[12:14]and the travel element and, you know,
[12:16]personal essays and all those things.
[12:18]And like if you think about how much value is packed
[12:20]into a cookbook, you know, for usually $25, $30,
[12:23]which tops sometimes less.
[12:25]Here's, I see my books go on sale online
[12:27]and I'm like, is that how much you think my book is worth?
[12:30]But, you know, I think that that cookbooks
[12:34]have kind of filled that niche,
[12:35]especially in the culinary world.
[12:37]And then as interesting food has just blossomed
[12:40]and exploded, people like to have them around.
[12:43]It's like, it's a category that seems to keep growing,
[12:45]which is really nice.
[12:47]I mean, the good thing is people always need to eat.
[12:49]Right.
[12:50]It's like one of those things.
[12:51]And also, you know, I think a lot of times a cookbook
[12:53]is a little bit like a Viking stove.
[12:54]Like, you maybe you buy it and never use it,
[12:56]but like it's really nice to look at and enjoy.
[12:58]And like, you know, it's sometimes just having the book
[13:03]and experiencing the book and reading the book is enough.
[13:06]Like, you don't have to cook to enjoy a cookbook, you know?
[13:09]I think too, having it there, like, you know that if you just
[13:12]took the time and bought the ingredients,
[13:14]it might not turn out that great as you did it.
[13:16]But like, it's a path, like you could do this.
[13:18]You could follow steps and produce this thing.
[13:21]So it's like aspirational life.
[13:23]Like, I on a good day, if this is what I chose to do,
[13:26]I could maybe make one of these recipes turn out half this good.
[13:29]And that would be amazing.
[13:31]Yeah, I mean, I always say, you know,
[13:33]there are certain elements of cookbook production
[13:35]that are very subjective.
[13:36]Like, if you don't like the cover or the design
[13:39]or even the pros in the book, that's up to you.
[13:43]But like, if I made a recipe and it fails you,
[13:45]then that's where I feel like I fail.
[13:47]Like, that's why I take the recipe portion so seriously
[13:50]because you're paying cold heart cash
[13:52]to like produce food in your home
[13:54]with like precious, beautiful, delicious ingredients.
[13:56]And like, I need to make sure that they work.
[13:58]So I put a lot of time and energy into the back end
[14:01]to make sure that when it gets to your kitchen,
[14:04]you're just gonna be able to, you know, seamlessly make it.
[14:06]And also my style of recipe writing is quite conversational.
[14:10]There's a lot of like, don't worry if or you'll find that,
[14:14]dot, dot, dot, you know, just so that I want you to feel
[14:17]like I'm there with you, like in the cooking process,
[14:21]so when you're doing all the food testing
[14:23]and all of this for the cookbooks,
[14:25]do you then also make yourself a nice meal
[14:28]or are you just picking like,
[14:30]what is your relationship to food like
[14:31]when you're working in food?
[14:33]I mean, oftentimes when I say making myself a nice meal,
[14:37]like if I have four different recipes in play,
[14:40]like making myself a nice meal for myself
[14:41]and my husband is reheating some of the many different things
[14:45]that I've made that day, you know?
[14:47]So because there's, it also just feels incredibly wasteful
[14:50]to not eat all this wonderful food that's around,
[14:52]although, you know, my poor long-suffering husband
[14:56]often has to taste the same fish recipe for five times
[14:59]like in the course of a couple of weeks
[15:00]when I'm working through it.
[15:02]But yeah, I really, you know,
[15:03]one of the things I live in Israel
[15:05]and Shabbat starts on Friday night
[15:07]and Friday is not a work day here.
[15:10]And it's, you know, our weekend is Friday Saturday
[15:13]as opposed to Saturday Sunday.
[15:15]And I've really gotten much better
[15:19]about not working on Fridays and Saturdays.
[15:23]I really, it's not a religious thing in Israel.
[15:25]It's a cultural thing.
[15:26]I had the first few years that I was here.
[15:28]You know, in the States,
[15:29]you kind of like shoot off work emails on the weekend
[15:32]and like don't expect people to respond maybe till Monday.
[15:35]Like here, even the sending of the message
[15:38]is a little bit like you've crossed a line.
[15:40]So like I don't really do that.
[15:43]And also that kind of my cooking on the weekend
[15:45]is more personal than it is during the week.
[15:48]Like I sort of distinguish between work cooking
[15:50]and personal cooking.
[15:51]Like when I am cooking for myself,
[15:54]I'm not using recipes.
[15:55]I'm going to the show at the market right by where I live.
[15:58]And I'm just like gathering the best ingredients
[16:01]that I find or that speak to me that week.
[16:04]And then I'll make dinner, you know, from those things
[16:07]or sometimes I'll have a plan in mind
[16:08]for some projectish that I want to make
[16:11]and I'll throw that together.
[16:13]But yeah, I do cook nice meals, not all the time.
[16:18]But and this year I was working on a new cookbook
[16:21]all last year.
[16:23]And now that that is essentially in the bag,
[16:26]this year is kind of like an off year
[16:28]for recipe developing for a book.
[16:29]So I think I'm going to have a lot of fun
[16:30]just like cooking for fun again.
[16:32]You know, not that I don't enjoy my job,
[16:33]but just like doing that extemporaneous freestyle cooking.
[16:37]And what is the third book then?
[16:38]It's a quicker, easier sort of dinner cookbook.
[16:42]This is all the flavors and the place that I live
[16:45]and love and all the people that I meet in the market.
[16:48]And also just sort of touching on a little bit
[16:51]on, you know, finding simplicity and complicated times
[16:55]sort of through cooking.
[16:56]And I love that.
[16:57]Does it, well, it start with an S?
[16:58]It won't, but it's another Hebrew word
[17:01]that's easy to pronounce for Westerners,
[17:03]which is always a consideration
[17:05]because a lot of the best Israeli words have a class
[17:08]sound or a sound or a sound that's hard for people
[17:12]to pronounce in the Western hemisphere.
[17:14]But I think I have a good name.
[17:15]I haven't announced it yet.
[17:17]So I won't try too much.
[17:18]That's very exciting.
[17:19]I think that's better though.
[17:21]And you know, obviously the past year plus in Israel
[17:25]has been, Israel has been in the news every second.
[17:28]It has been devastating what has happened over there.
[17:32]How do you cope with a trauma like that?
[17:35]Like, do you go like, yeah,
[17:37]how do you cope with seeing it?
[17:39]Yeah, I was actually in the States on Book Tour
[17:41]for Shabbat, my Shabbat cookbook
[17:43]when October 7th happened.
[17:46]And my tour very quickly morphed from just like a fun
[17:51]book tour, you know, to something that had more meaning.
[17:54]And, you know, I assumed that my tour was going to just end
[17:57]because of everything that was going on.
[18:00]But what I found that I think what you have found
[18:02]through the last year or year and a half
[18:04]is that people are actually cleaving to one another
[18:06]and wanting community and connection and to gather.
[18:10]So my events were actually grew, you know,
[18:14]sometimes a lot in a week before.
[18:16]And then when I got back to Israel, you know,
[18:18]I was paralyzed.
[18:19]I was like, how can I post like a Sotar mac and cheese recipe
[18:24]when there are hostages, you know, suffering of fear
[18:27]in the region, the hostages and people in Gaza everywhere.
[18:30]It was just very hard.
[18:31]And also obviously the element of all the craziness
[18:35]going on with, you know, how people feel about Israel
[18:38]and feeling sort of at the center of that
[18:40]and sort of somehow being asked to answer for things
[18:46]and decisions and things that happened
[18:48]that I personally had nothing to do with, you know,
[18:50]but I did manage to deal with that.
[18:54]And I came back to Israel and I did start cooking again
[18:57]for my social media, but also started going out
[19:00]all over Israel to meet people who were impacted
[19:03]by October 7th.
[19:04]And, you know, I went to bake with a baker
[19:08]who lost his bakery on Kibbutz, Barry.
[19:11]And I went to a juice machine factory
[19:15]that is like my favorite juicer in the world
[19:16]that I have in my own kitchen.
[19:18]And they were on a Kibbutz that was attacked
[19:20]and where many people were killed in kidnapped
[19:22]and got to see the factory reopened.
[19:25]And I cooked with hostage relatives
[19:28]and, you know, tried to do things just to be a part
[19:32]and contribute.
[19:33]And so that was helpful to me personally.
[19:35]And it's just a constant evolution, you know,
[19:37]it's, you know, being a relatively public person
[19:40]but also having my own personal, you know,
[19:43]it's thoughts and experiences this year has been a challenge
[19:45]as I'm sure you can relate to.
[19:47]But I feel like it's, I'm good.
[19:49]I'm fortunate I compared to many people
[19:52]and I feel also that I've managed to,
[19:54]I have managed to use my platform in a way
[19:57]that I'm comfortable with.
[19:58]And also I managed to.
[20:00]like write a whole nother cookbook this year,
[20:01]just to have a place to channel all of my energies
[20:04]and distraction, I came out of it,
[20:07]I've come out of it knowing who I am more
[20:09]and caring less about insignificant things,
[20:13]comments, people and like really being able to drill down
[20:16]on the things that are meaningful to me
[20:17]and the meaning of my life and life here.
[20:23]That's amazing.
[20:24]I had heard from Martha Beck in her book,
[20:26]Beyond Anxiety, how creativity is like the main antidote
[20:30]to anxiety because if you are being created
[20:32]for that part of your brain,
[20:33]you literally can't activate the anxiety part of your brain.
[20:36]So I feel like you and your cooking and your production
[20:39]and making a new book and like all of it,
[20:41]like we all cope in our way with whatever's being thrown
[20:44]at us or the world and how great
[20:47]when everyone else can then be the beneficiary
[20:49]of your creativity by, you know,
[20:52]whatever book this is is coming next
[20:53]and the books that you've already put out into the world.
[20:55]I would say that also, I mean, in the middle
[20:57]of all the course of this year,
[20:59]like for some reason I decided to start a sub-stock
[21:01]and like, I think to describe, I just described.
[21:05]Oh, you did, you know, because, you know,
[21:08]also, you know, my cookbook,
[21:10]I don't want to make my cookbook like my personal place
[21:13]to unload all of my feelings and emotions, you know,
[21:17]and I wanted to find another place
[21:18]that I could would both be a place for me
[21:21]to express myself writing wise
[21:23]and also just like, you know, a cookbook to me
[21:25]is still at the end of the day.
[21:27]It's a joyous experience.
[21:28]It's about living and cooking
[21:30]and sustaining nourishing and feeding.
[21:33]But I was, the sub-stock has just been a place
[21:36]where I can, there are many weeks where I will
[21:38]just create a recipe or I'll talk about like great places
[21:40]to eat in Israel, but then there are some weeks
[21:42]when there's something really heavy going on here
[21:44]that it's a place where I can share my own feelings
[21:48]like with an audience that I know has bought into
[21:51]what I'm writing about, you know,
[21:53]I don't want to unload that on to everyone in my cooks,
[21:55]you know.
[21:56]So yeah.
[21:57]Well, that's great.
[21:58]Athena, thank you.
[21:59]Sorry for Wi-Fi issues, but thank you so much for,
[22:03]and I know it is Shabbat now.
[22:04]So thank you for coming on on a Friday,
[22:07]which is not a work day for you.
[22:09]And thank you for taking the time
[22:11]and then you go like McDonald's.
[22:13]No, well, Shabbat Shalom,
[22:15]and thank you so much for being a part of it
[22:17]and being just so awesome and supportive.
[22:20]I think I just personally thank you for everything
[22:22]you've been doing and, you know, it's been really,
[22:25]I've been watching it all from afar all year
[22:27]and it really is meaningful and making a huge difference.
[22:30]I know it's not always easy and it's with everything else
[22:33]just going on in our lives as people, you know,
[22:36]all the other stuff, like it's just that it is,
[22:39]it's meaningful and important and it makes a difference.
[22:41]So thank you so much.
[22:42]Thank you so much.
[22:43]Thank you.
[22:45]Okay.
[22:45]All right.
[22:46]Bye, Adina.
[22:47]Thank you, Shabbat Shalom.
[22:48]Stay in touch.
[22:49]Bye.
[22:50]Okay. Bye-bye.
[22:51]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi,
[22:54]formerly mom's don't have time to read books.
[22:56]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[23:00]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[23:02]and spread the word.
[23:04]Thanks so much.
[23:05]Oh, and bye the books.