Tom Rosshirt, CHASING PEACE: A Story of Breakdowns, Breakthroughs, and the Spiritual Power of Neuroscience
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[0:44]Tom Reshert is the author of Chasing Peace, a story of breakdowns breakthroughs and the
[0:49]spiritual power of neuroscience.
[0:52]Tom is a co-founder of Unite, a co-creator of the Dignity Index, and an editor of the
[0:57]Call to Unite.
[0:58]Previously, Tom was a high school teacher, a Capitol Hill Press secretary, a White House
[1:03]speechwriter, and a co-founder of West Wing Writers.
[1:07]Welcome, Tom.
[1:08]I'm so excited to have you on the show today to talk about Chasing Peace, a story of breakdowns,
[1:12]breakthroughs, and the spiritual power of neuroscience.
[1:16]Congratulations on your book.
[1:17]Thank you.
[1:18]Thank you.
[1:19]I'm also obsessed with this cover, because this is the wallpaper.
[1:21]Very close to the wallpaper I have in my bookstore in Santa Monica and my home, and my office
[1:27]here in New York, and I'm just-
[1:28]Now, zibi, look behind you, you can see that I've got the same color, and I didn't even
[1:33]notice it until the cover came, and I thought, they don't know what my wall coloring
[1:38]is on my office, but anyway, thank you.
[1:40]I appreciate that.
[1:41]I can give you the farewell wallpaper info if you need another little matching room.
[1:48]Next time I'm in the store, I'll hold your book up, and I'll show you.
[1:52]But anyway, of course, this is the most superficial way to start, because your book
[1:55]is incredibly deep on so many levels, and actually is sort of changing the way I think
[2:02]about things, and I was saying to you earlier that there were no parts of this book that
[2:06]I could skim, because you had personal information scattered throughout, and in every chapter,
[2:13]you're telling us stories about you, and then philosophy, and perspective, and it's just
[2:20]so much good stuff, as an overly simplistic way to say it.
[2:25]So why don't you give us sort of a general description, and so people know what we're
[2:29]talking about?
[2:30]Sure.
[2:31]Well, the centerpiece of the book, and the reason I came to write the book, is that I had
[2:36]been trying meditation of all kinds for a very long period of time, and I prided myself
[2:41]on that.
[2:42]But the truth of the matter was, I developed some mysterious, stress-related illness
[2:49]that drove me out of my life.
[2:51]And just, let me give you a short story, which is really hard for people who have gone
[2:55]for eight years of doctor journeys to make it short.
[2:59]But basically, I had reached 50 or so, and I thought that was in a decline.
[3:04]I was more often depressed.
[3:05]I didn't have the same level of energy.
[3:08]And I started writing down my symptoms in a book, which I don't recommend, because it
[3:14]compounds them.
[3:16]But then one day I woke up with terrifying brain fog, and depression and anxiety
[3:23]bordering on panic.
[3:24]It was closer to panic.
[3:26]And I was driving later that day, and I thought, how did I end up on this road?
[3:33]And then later that same day, I went into the cupboard to grab something, and I found
[3:39]vegetables that should have been in the refrigerator, and then I went to the doctor.
[3:44]And she said, yeah, I don't see what's going on with you, but go to neurology.
[3:47]And neurology, they gave me a bunch of tests, and many of them were abnormal, abnormal.
[3:53]But they didn't have any diagnosis, and they didn't have any treatment.
[3:56]So I started wandering among doctors.
[3:58]And let me just interrupt right now to say, the moral of this story is that running from
[4:05]fear can make us sick, and facing fear can make us well.
[4:10]So I was hooper-sooped up on fear, and I was hearing more frightening diagnoses and test results.
[4:18]And then I went from one to another, and they started to identify, oh, you're reacting
[4:22]to mold, or oh, you're reacting to chemicals, or you're reacting to this kind of food.
[4:28]And everything I reacted to, I tried to remove from my environment.
[4:33]So my diet got smaller and smaller.
[4:36]I tried to get my environment cleaner and cleaner, but it kept accelerating.
[4:41]And I kept finding doctors willing to enable this fear quest that I had until finally
[4:47]someone said, you need to move out of your house.
[4:50]It's a hundred-year-old house in a humid area of Washington, D.C., you're not going to get
[4:54]it clean to the level that you need, you need to move out.
[4:58]Meanwhile, though, the thing that really terrified me or the image was dementia.
[5:04]I thought, that was the thing that drove me.
[5:06]If I look at fears and various intensity of fears, I can measure the intensity of the fear
[5:13]in me by how crazy is the thing I'm willing to do to get away from the fear.
[5:19]So I moved away from my home, my neighborhood, my wife, my kids, my dog, my yard, my life.
[5:25]And I went 30 minutes away and lived in a very clean apartment with great air purifiers.
[5:31]And I was taking saunas from one thing after another.
[5:36]And then in one of the luckiest turns of my life, someone said to me, would you like to
[5:40]join a support group of people who haven't you have?
[5:43]And I said, well, if they're able to identify what they have, and they think it's
[5:46]like, yeah, I want to join it.
[5:47]She said, but let me make this caution.
[5:50]It's not about the best supplement.
[5:52]It's not about some new tea.
[5:54]It's not about a new diet.
[5:56]It's not about taking the right kind of sauna.
[5:59]It's about retraining your brain.
[6:01]And I said, OK, I'm 100 times in.
[6:03]And I read this book, Wired for Healing by Annie Hopper.
[6:07]I got the DVDs.
[6:08]I went to the workshop, if five day in person were chopped.
[6:12]And then within a month, I cleaned out that apartment.
[6:17]I cleaned out the cover of 81 bottles of supplements, put them in a trash bag, dropped
[6:23]them down the chute, headed to the elevator, and went home.
[6:27]And that was six years ago.
[6:29]And it just, the essence of it was reversing avoidance.
[6:34]The essence was changing my relationship from fear, from doing everything I could to avoid
[6:40]it.
[6:41]Like, if I had any sensation that scared me, I would want to track it down.
[6:45]What caused it?
[6:46]Was it a food?
[6:47]Was it exposure?
[6:48]I got to find out what it is and eliminate it, so I never have to feel that again.
[6:52]So I was in a very ironic state that I had done meditation for years that was about
[6:58]have equanimity with every sensation.
[7:01]And I stumbled into a pit where I didn't have equanimity with any sensation.
[7:07]And I knew people who were watching me were very worried about me.
[7:11]And I knew I was headed to a smaller and narrower life.
[7:15]And I had depression, which when you read the book, I had depression that had me
[7:19]like worried that I'm not going to be able to live in the natural life feeling as badly
[7:23]as I do.
[7:25]But I found someone who had cured herself from extreme reaction to chemicals by going on
[7:32]a houseboat, but where she didn't react and reading neuroscience and saying, look, I go down
[7:38]the detergent aisle and I react like crazy, but no one else does.
[7:42]So it's not in the stimulus.
[7:43]It's in my response.
[7:45]How can I rewire my response?
[7:47]She did it for herself and now she's doing it for others.
[7:50]And that's basically what led to the book, but that was the first move.
[7:53]That was like the mother of all the other breakthroughs, but that was the start.
[7:57]And it was reorienting my response to fear.
[8:00]I think the conclusion in the book is that your mind is in control of your brain, which
[8:06]I love because that empowers everybody to fix or handle whatever comes their way, right?
[8:13]Right.
[8:14]Jeffrey Schwartz, the research psychiatrist put out their book, your mind is not your brain,
[8:20]but he says your mind definitely can control your brain.
[8:24]And frankly, there are so many false signals and neuroscience is supporting this.
[8:29]There are so many false messages that the brain sends to the body.
[8:33]And for me, long ago, my brain sent to my body, this is dangerous.
[8:39]And I believed it and I obeyed it and then I had to undo it.
[8:44]So interesting.
[8:45]Well, you talk about this health journey, which is full of ups and downs and meetings
[8:52]with doctors where they're like, this is so sad, like you're just going to have to live
[8:56]with this.
[8:57]Conversations, nobody wants to have with a doctor, right?
[9:02]But then you take us back to you growing up with your three brothers and one of whom
[9:07]tragically died of AIDS and that whole story, which was so poignant and beautiful.
[9:12]And also funny, I mean, you know, you know, that dark humor was so amazing just the way
[9:19]you all interacted and your own addictions, right?
[9:23]How things started for you really early?
[9:25]I feel like you were self medicating from a super young age and only able to stop it
[9:32]when you realized it was really impacting your life.
[9:34]So maybe you talk a little bit about that storyline, which was powerful or your brother
[9:39]too.
[9:40]I mean, oh my gosh.
[9:41]Yeah.
[9:42]I talk about in the book six states of breakdown and they can come in any order.
[9:47]They can come numerous at once at a time and they're all an internal battle, a fight
[9:53]between who you want to be and that part who is also you that you're trying to shove
[9:58]out and and.
[10:00]States of breakdown, I describe our anxiety, depression, addiction, illness, crisis, grace,
[10:07]and addiction is a chapter unto itself as they all are. But addiction for me, I came to realize that
[10:17]yeah, I was addicted to alcohol at different points, certain kind of foods, caffeine,
[10:21]certain habits, drugs, all of that. But the ultimate addiction was to the story I had of myself.
[10:30]who I thought I had to be. And I'm convinced, I'm convinced that if you could get a transcript of my
[10:36]brain, and if you could bear to read the transcript of my thoughts, you could see how much each person
[10:42]is obsessing over their story, because we are a core concept in the book is the self-image.
[10:50]And this is really our defense against fear. If we want to face fear, we have to realize that
[10:55]the self-image and the story we create about ourselves is a defense against fear. And if we want
[11:02]to really face fear, which is to really get well, we have to slowly dismantle the self-image. So
[11:09]the self-image, the story is what we get addicted to. So I decide, here's the person I am.
[11:18]I'm a really good writer. I'm a spiritual person. I'm a reliable friend. But there's all kind of
[11:24]evidence that I am the opposite of those things too. So I start denying those things. And then
[11:31]when I come to a breakdown, and the book really is about how one angle on the book could be, how do
[11:37]you flip breakdowns into breakthroughs? And breakdowns are good news if we can step back watch what's
[11:45]happening when we're in pain and see what is breaking down. And as I see it, there are three things
[11:51]that's breaking down. When we feel absolutely defeated, we can't go on, everything is broken.
[11:57]There are three things that are breaking down. One, our self-image is breaking down. We create a story
[12:02]of ourselves and we tie our happiness to a story of who we are and we need other people to tell
[12:08]that story back to us. But when people don't tell that story back to us, when events start to
[12:13]contradict the self-image, the self-image starts breaking down. Then the body starts breaking down
[12:19]because we exhaust ourselves trying to defend the self-image. And the third thing that breaks down
[12:24]is our plan for happiness. Because our plan for happiness is all premised on, if I am this thing
[12:30]in the world and I get people who affirm that I am this thing, then I'm going to be happy. And
[12:35]either you are that thing and you're not happy or you never get to be that thing. But then you're
[12:39]left with now, now what do I do? Because I think this book, this book is not for people whose
[12:45]lives are going well. And they're not really even for people whose lives are okay. And they want
[12:52]to tweak it a little bit. It's really for people who don't know what to do to lies and are broken
[12:58]downstate and they don't know what to do. And so just to jump back briefly to addiction, I found
[13:04]that the more command I have, because when we quit drinking, we have to still have to deal with
[13:11]the things that made us want to drink, right? So that's not the cure. That's the beginning of the
[13:16]cure. And in the end, the thing that made me want to drink is I wanted to be somebody that I wasn't.
[13:25]And that's like an internal battle. And the more I began to concede, okay, I'm not this all the
[13:31]time. And I'm actually not that all the time. And I am some things I don't like. And I got to admit
[13:38]and this is also the essence of intimacy. Like here are some things I don't want you to know about
[13:43]me. So that when you get to that level and you start to give in on your self image, the pressure
[13:50]drops, and then the need to soothe yourself with addictive substances is less urgent because
[13:57]you don't have the inner battle going on between the person you are and the person you're
[14:03]pretending to be. It's so interesting. I mean, it's very philosophical too. Part that I feel
[14:09]like I responded to a lot was this notion that we are all almost addicted to this current chapter
[14:16]that we're discussing to the feedback of what we're doing. And so we work all the time and
[14:23]have no boundaries. Like you gave examples of when you would accept, when you were starting your
[14:29]business and accepting speeches that you would write in the middle of the night. And you're like,
[14:33]sure, totally, I could get that done by the morning. And as I'm reading in the middle of the night.
[14:37]And I'm like, uh-huh. Yeah, I get that. Like I have no boundaries because you're trying so hard to
[14:43]defend who you are. And when you try that hard to be that person, you can't relax enough to say
[14:51]sort of, you know, I have to let go. And I am who I am. And that is it's not a failure. It just
[14:58]has to be acceptance. Right. So I am who I am, but we come into the game with the idea that I
[15:05]can't be who I am and get what I want. So I have to make up this thing like I'm the Iron Man
[15:11]speechwriter. You can test me. I can do anything. And yeah, that is exactly what drives the breakdown.
[15:16]So this interesting thing about working at the White House for me was on the one hand, I felt,
[15:22]okay, I totally belong here. I know I can write at this level. I get praise for these speeches.
[15:27]On the other hand, I had to completely exhaust myself because I was terrified of handing in
[15:35]something mediocre. So that, that was trying to be yourself image and then exhausting yourself
[15:42]in the service of yourself image. So that was, you know, that was a valuable tour of duty on
[15:48]on the path to breakdown. Whereas, you know, I just, I broke down from the strain of trying to
[15:54]defend and promote this self image. Yeah, I love your handing Al Gore set like this over-prepared
[16:01]speech with like a huge packet of anything he could possibly ask. And that question and that
[16:07]question. And he just like looked at it and was like, yeah, no, I'm not doing this. He became the
[16:12]victim of my obsessive overwork. But he knew what it was and he just glanced and put it aside.
[16:17]But yeah, there was a lot of that going in there as you can imagine. But the thing is what
[16:22]what the self image ultimately and again, I'm just trying to understand this more deeply now.
[16:28]But the self image is a defense against all the feelings we don't want. Right? What I have
[16:35]arranged and organized my life to avoid the feelings I'm afraid of. And we heal. And there's
[16:43]a big difference between what's soothing and what's healing. Right? Soothing is all this feels good.
[16:48]someone gave me some praise. Oh, you're a really good writer or something like that. And
[16:53]you know, I respond with a false grace of an addict who just got a fix and everything's
[16:57]great in my world. But actually, I have these feelings of fear, terrified that, you know, what,
[17:06]I'm going to get kicked out. I'm going to be mocked. I'm going to be laughed at. I'm going to be
[17:09]publicly humiliated. I'm going to not measure up. And all these fears are so terrifying that we're
[17:16]running from them. And if we can turn and face those fears, then not only do they lose their
[17:22]power, but the energy we've been using to fight them becomes available for other uses.
[17:29]What one of my favorite stories in the book is not my story, but it came out of James
[17:34]Pennebaker's book, open up by writing it down. And it's a fascinating story about
[17:39]about bringing out the things we're hiding is healing, bringing out expressing and experiencing the
[17:46]feelings we're hiding is healing. And he told the story of a kid named Warren, who was a valedictorian
[17:51]in his high school. And he went to college and was doing well for a while. And then suddenly he
[17:57]developed debilitating testing anxiety. And so he went, he ended up having to drop out of college.
[18:05]And he went for two years from one therapist to another. And then he went to Dr. Pennebaker who
[18:09]said, Warren, would you mind if I talked to you while I rate your heart wearing a heart monitor?
[18:16]And he said, fine, let's do it. So they started talking. They talked about school. They talked about
[18:21]his life. They talked about his girlfriend and his heart rate was steady at like 75. And then so
[18:28]Warren, let's talk about your parents divorce. And it spiked to 105. And even as his heart rate was
[18:35]beating at 105, he said, it's really fine. You know, they're happier now. And it's like lies.
[18:43]We're telling lies to protect ourselves from feelings. And the feelings that he was protecting
[18:48]himself from our classic feelings, he was furious with his parents. And that kind of fear, I mean,
[18:55]this is sort of standard psychotherapy, right? We all start out with feelings and impulses.
[19:00]They're natural and universal. And we get scared of them because they can endanger the bonds or
[19:06]the people we love and we need. And so we begin to suppress them. But when we start suppressing
[19:12]feelings, all hell breaks loose, both emotionally and physically in our health. So Warren then talked
[19:18]about his how angry he was with his parents, talked to his parents about how angry he was.
[19:23]And then he went back to school still unhappy, still sad. But he wasn't suppressing the sadness.
[19:31]And so he was functioning at his love. So there are a lot of ways, some people don't like to talk
[19:37]about the unconscious, but whether you're saying unconscious or non-conscious or semi-conscious
[19:43]or whether you're shoving it down or pushing it in, whatever name you have for it,
[19:49]bringing out the feelings we're hiding is healing. And the whole notion of the body's relationship
[19:55]to this, that this is not just like, let's go to psychotherapy and deal with this, but it it affects
[20:00]every system. I had something happen when I was going through a divorce myself, which I
[20:04]don't usually discuss. It was this weird thing where suddenly I became allergic to everything.
[20:09]I went to the allergist. You had happened in the book and they were like, actually you're allergic
[20:13]to every food. I'm like, what? I haven't been allergic to any foods. Why? And they were like,
[20:18]yeah, basically your body's freaking out and you're allergic to everything. I was like,
[20:23]sorry guys, I can't eat this carrot because I'm allergic to it all of a sudden.
[20:28]Even carrots.
[20:29]Every, like the most random things, like my list was like beyond long. And of course,
[20:35]now we're your, we're your doctors understanding that they understand the brain
[20:40]firing dangerous signals is going to create this or of course not. No, because when you see a doctor,
[20:46]you go in and you have a symptom and they do a test and then they give you the information and then
[20:52]they send you on your way, right? Because they're, you know, they're looking at like, you know,
[20:57]it's like a skin cancer doctor who only looks at like one mole. Well, what about the rest of your body?
[21:01]Right? You know, they have such a micro, every doctor it like zeros in on what their specialty is
[21:07]and they often miss exactly what you're talking about, which is like let's evaluate the entire
[21:12]system. And like, why is this happening? And I feel like this book is so useful to anybody who could
[21:19]who needs to just like take a minute, right? Like just take a minute and step back and think about
[21:25]things, not to say that like you can cure every illness, but just what is going on here and what
[21:30]else is going on here? Exactly. And so, um, Dr. Howard Shubner, who I quote extensively in the book,
[21:36]and he's not actually working on a book now with Penguin Random House about mine body,
[21:42]but he was a lead researcher in the Colorado back pain study that I talked about in chapter one.
[21:49]And and it showed, okay, let me just, I love this story. I love this study. They had 151 people who
[21:56]had suffered chronic back pain for years and they separated it in the three groups and there
[22:01]was a group that kept doing what they were doing, another group that did nothing, another group that
[22:06]did pain repossessing therapy. And this is a technique developed by Alan Gordon at the Pain
[22:14]Psychology Center in Los Angeles. And for eight weeks, the people with the chronic back pain
[22:20]were training themselves to reinterpret their feelings from the back pain so that what the brain
[22:28]was sending out was dangerous signals. And they invited the patients to reinterpret that from
[22:35]not dangerous signals, unpleasant, but not dangerous. And over eight weeks as they learned to practice
[22:44]this, the dangerous signals went down, the fear went down, and the pain went down. To the point
[22:51]that, 98% of that group said they felt better. And 66% said they were nearly or totally better.
[23:01]And this is chronic back pain. Of course, I read a recent study from the Journal of Pain
[23:06]sent to me by Dr. Schubner that said in the last 20, in the last 18 years, there's been a 25%
[23:14]increase in chronic pain. And so it's pretty evident that Dr. Son of who I also mentioned who
[23:24]died some years ago and was a leader in the field said the problem with mainstream medicine now
[23:30]has a deep bias that emotions cannot cause physiologic change. And he said, that's poor medicine
[23:39]and poor science. The beneficial aspect of this is they can sort out is your back pain due to tissue
[23:48]injury. And then we need to treat it at the site. Or is it potentially due to, does it start in the
[23:56]neural circuits of the brain board? I'm by fear in a sense of danger. And it gets your limbic system
[24:01]firing. And you get stuck on high alert. And then the raging fear in your brain starts creating
[24:09]havoc in your body. And it can be IBS for one person pelvic pain. It could be back pain, neck
[24:15]pain, shoulder pain, fibromyalgia. For me, it was brain fog and neuropathy and a host of things
[24:22]like that. But the striking thing about this is this is a treatment that is that can cover
[24:28]a range of mysterious. And there's no ultimately, there's not a serious competition going on
[24:34]between mainstream medicine and treating backs and neuroplastic approaches and treating backs
[24:40]because mainstream medicine is not doing well. So it's not as like, hey, we're fighting over,
[24:46]but, but, but, but neuroplastic approaches to back pain, they're safe. They're quick. They're not
[24:53]invasive. They're effective. And if they don't work, you can do physical therapy and get steroid
[25:02]shots and opiates and do surgery. There's nothing preventing you from trying this and then trying that.
[25:08]But the, the, the, the understory of this, and Dr. Shubner is going to write more fully about this
[25:14]in his book is mainstream medicine. Right now, the great centers of medicine in the United States,
[25:22]Mayo Clinic, Johns Hopkins, Cleveland Clinic, they do not greet someone who reports with fibromyalgia
[25:30]with this kind of inventory, right? They go straight to the standard of care, which is not working.
[25:37]So the last piece of this whole book, because I feel like honestly, I could talk to you about every
[25:42]chapter. Like I have so many questions and thoughts and whatever. This is like not feeling satisfying
[25:46]to only have 30 minutes. But your whole notion of chasing peace itself is like an oxymoron in a way
[25:52]because the fact that you are chasing it means that you do not have it. Like you cannot actually
[25:57]try to achieve peace. You have to accept it. You just, you have to like shift your whole mindset
[26:03]to achieve peace. And that of course is one of the goals of the book, right? It's teaching you
[26:07]how to live a happier life because you are not one of these people out there trying to have
[26:12]a life. Right. Right. So what I talk about a little bit in the book is the first and second
[26:19]half of life. And the first half of life I describe as, and we all do it. We all should do it.
[26:25]We can't help it. And if we do it well, it's better than if we do it poorly. But it's about
[26:30]taking a goal of who you want to be and striving super hard to be that. And that's the first half
[26:36]of life. And some people excel at it for great benefit for others. So we can't sidestep that.
[26:43]We can't vault over it. We all got to do it and do it intensely. But in many cases, if we're paying
[26:50]attention to what's going on when we're in pain, we notice we break down. And that self image
[26:56]can't work anymore. And our body's exhausted trying to make it work. And so then instead of
[27:02]trying to achieve our self image to be happy, we start letting the self image go to be happy.
[27:09]And that that's the breakthrough. And it means ultimately to put it in concrete terms,
[27:14]it means accepting all the things you've been trying to deny and shut out. So one line, I think
[27:20]one of the most important lines of the book for me, and I would I would like to leave it,
[27:26]leave you with this is Dr. Conland, who wrote the book live transformed, which was a seminal
[27:33]work for me to read and learn from said, the full and direct experience of previously avoided
[27:42]feelings is the key to healing. And I just circled it. And what's striking to me is I talk about
[27:50]three modalities of self improvement. There's the neuroscience insights, their psychology,
[27:57]and their spiritual practice. And what Dr. Conland said is absolutely true in each discipline
[28:03]in each domain. We've got to let those feelings that we're running away from, we got to turn and
[28:08]face them. Wow. Well, I appreciate that you're facing them became a book. And that we all got
[28:14]the benefit of the deep dive that you have done over the years into so many different things
[28:19]from philosophy to medicine and addiction and mental health and all of the things. And I am
[28:24]delighted that Maria Shriver found you and asked you to write a book. And thank you for the really
[28:31]in-depth, interesting thought-provoking book that this is. And I really hope people will discover it
[28:37]and enjoy it as I did. Well, thank you so much. New authors, need friends. So thank you,
[28:44]my friend. My pleasure. Best of luck, Tom. Thank you so much. Okay, bye-bye.
[28:51]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi, formerly mom's time to have time to read books.
[28:57]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens,
[29:02]and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and bye the books.