Alison Wood Brooks, TALK: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves
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[0:44]Allison Wood Brooks is the author of Talk, The Science of Conversation, and the art of
[0:49]being ourselves.
[0:50]Dr. Allison Wood Brooks is the O'Brien Associate Professor of Business Administration
[0:55]and Hellman Faculty Fellow at the Harvard Business School, where she created and teaches
[0:58]a course called Talk.
[1:00]As a behavioral scientist, she is a leading expert on the science of conversation.
[1:04]Her award-winning research has been published in Top Academic Journals and is regularly
[1:09]cited in media outlets, such as The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Harvard Business
[1:13]Review, and NPR.
[1:14]Her research was referenced in two of the top ten most viewed TED Talks of all time,
[1:19]and depicted in Pixar's Inside Out Two.
[1:22]In 2021, she was named a Best 40 Under 40 Business School Professor by Poets and Quants.
[1:28]Talk The Science of Conversation, and the art of being ourselves is her first book.
[1:32]Welcome, Allison.
[1:33]Thank you so much for coming on my show to talk about talk.
[1:38]I guess I didn't need quotes, but the science of conversation and the art of being ourselves.
[1:43]Thanks for being here.
[1:44]Thank you so much for having me, Zibi.
[1:46]I'm so happy to be here.
[1:48]So as I was just saying, this is so meta to have a conversation about conversation.
[1:53]And I'm also just so excited because I went to HBS.
[1:55]I don't know if you know that.
[1:56]I was O3 Section B, and all of the references here.
[2:00]I could just imagine myself in class.
[2:02]I was obsessed with organizational behavior.
[2:04]I did a whole study with Monica Higgins.
[2:06]I thought about doing a Ph.D. in this whole department, and I was like, oh my gosh, this
[2:10]book.
[2:11]So anyway.
[2:12]You are fated.
[2:13]We are like stars, like ships passing in the night.
[2:16]You are a part, and you could have been a part of building this talk book for sure.
[2:20]Yeah.
[2:21]I would have been there.
[2:22]I would have taken your class.
[2:23]I would have eaten it up.
[2:25]I could have worked for you anyway.
[2:27]I'll just say obsessed with the content and think about this all the time as sort of
[2:32]a professional conversationalist.
[2:34]So tell everybody about how you started the class.
[2:38]I also want to hear all about your music, life, and marrying a drummer, and being a singer,
[2:44]and all of that.
[2:45]So feel free to break into song at any point.
[2:47]I love it.
[2:48]I love it.
[2:49]OK.
[2:50]So the sort of quick story, the quick sequence of events is...
[2:53]I was first.
[2:54]I'm a person.
[2:56]So I was...
[2:57]I'm an identical twin, which is not insignificant, I think, in the development of my obsession
[3:02]about conversation.
[3:04]And, Peter, as you said in the book that you and your sister got the same score and
[3:07]every exam ever, that is insane.
[3:09]Listen, twins are so privileged and so lucky, but also we're so creepy.
[3:14]I mean, it's so weird to go with an identical copy of yourself.
[3:19]And it's like, not only do you have this conversation partner right next to you.
[3:23]your entire childhood, and your, you know, like siblings, but even closer, you know.
[3:28]But also you're watching a version of yourself, like, interact in the social world up close.
[3:34]And so you see all the things.
[3:36]I would see all the things that she did that were amazing.
[3:40]And I was like, of course, I could do that too.
[3:42]Like, I'm going to do that too.
[3:44]And then I would see all the embarrassing sort of little failures that she would have.
[3:47]And I'd be like, oh, God, I'm going to avoid that.
[3:50]Right.
[3:51]And you're getting like extra feedback compared to everybody else.
[3:54]So first there's that.
[3:56]That's my, so the beginning of my obsession, then, you know, I went on this sort of educational
[4:00]journey and became a scientist over time, got my PhD at Penn, started my professorship
[4:07]at Harvard, studying negotiations and realized, wait a second before we get into hard conversations
[4:14]and fraught conversations.
[4:16]Like what about the easy ones that people seem to mess up all the time too?
[4:20]And so I started to develop this fascination with that idea.
[4:24]And then I learned, we as a field learned enough about conversation in the psychology
[4:31]of conversation that I just felt this undying need to design a course.
[4:35]And so I did to share all of the things we'd learned with the students at, at HBS and
[4:41]it's called talk and it really feels like I've hit a nerve in some ways.
[4:46]Like it's really the students love it.
[4:48]It really feels like it makes a meaningful difference in their lives and it's been quite
[4:53]the labor of love.
[4:55]And now all of the stuff that's in the course is available for everybody in the book.
[4:59]Well, I feel like the book is timely in so many ways, especially at a time sort of
[5:03]societally where conversation is not, conversations aren't even being had, right?
[5:08]And we need to find a way into that.
[5:10]So anyway, on the most micro to the most macro level, I feel like this is incredibly needed.
[5:16]So I'm so glad it became a book.
[5:18]It has to become more things.
[5:19]So are you doing a TED talk?
[5:20]Have you done a TED talk?
[5:21]There's so many, I've been trying, here's a secret, I've been sort of dodging TED talks
[5:25]in my whole career.
[5:26]Trying to keep my head down, like focus on the science, they're my hopefully TED talk
[5:31]coming, coming everyone's way at some point.
[5:34]There's lots of other things.
[5:35]Yes, a book is a wonderful and exciting launching pad and I'm thrilled, very excited
[5:39]to see what else comes, comes my way from it for sure.
[5:43]You said we're not even starting the conversations we need to have when I was googling
[5:47]around about you before our conversation.
[5:49]Something I really admired is that you are so good at raising topics, like not especially
[5:55]around some of the difficult topics societally and public discourse recently.
[6:00]I just wanted to say that.
[6:01]I really admire that in you and it takes courage and you're good at doing it and more
[6:05]people should do it.
[6:06]Thank you very much.
[6:08]I'm also trying to analyze which of your skills you're using in our conversation.
[6:13]Are we topic jumping?
[6:14]Are we getting into the rich material yet?
[6:17]What is she doing?
[6:18]I think you're experiencing what all of my students experience, which is the sense of hyper
[6:24]vigilance.
[6:25]It's almost like the book helps you, it's like you become Neo in the matrix and you
[6:29]see the matrix and then you're sort of hyper vigilant about the matrix.
[6:34]You're like, what's happening now and now and now and what topic are we on and when is
[6:39]she going to ask a follow-up question and have we had enough levity yet and how can I
[6:43]be more focused on zibya?
[6:46]How can I be more focused on Allison?
[6:48]Yes.
[6:49]That hypervigilance does dissipate over time once it becomes more second nature.
[6:53]Well, I have spent a lot of time thinking about conversation and ironically, I think it's
[6:59]started for me because when I was a child, I could not talk at all and so I spent so much
[7:05]time listening to conversation and trying to analyze conversation patterns because I had
[7:09]so much social anxiety that I just froze up and couldn't talk and I kept wondering how
[7:15]is it so easy for people to talk and I would watch and be like, okay, she said that and
[7:19]he said that and then she said that and then so I approached it from a young age analytically
[7:25]which is why I also really appreciate your book because you take it apart with a scalpel
[7:30]like what makes a good conversation?
[7:32]How can everybody make themselves better conversationalists?
[7:37]And how can you get the most from every conversation?
[7:39]Which of course is the fabric of life?
[7:40]So in effect, you're teaching everyone how to have a better life, right?
[7:45]Just a small goal, you know, just like the easy, yes, I love imagining you as like a tiny
[7:50]scientist as a little girl in a way this topic is so approachable for all of us because
[7:57]we are all little sort of observationalists of the world were constantly observing ourselves
[8:03]or observing other people and interact with other people and so we're all kind of trying
[8:07]to figure it out all the time and what is so hard about conversation is like you practice
[8:13]doing it every day of your life from the time you're a toddler onwards and so we feel
[8:18]like we should be experts by the time we are adults and it's not true, right?
[8:24]Even the best conversationalists have tons of room for improvement forever.
[8:28]You could never be perfect at it and aiming for perfection isn't the right goal.
[8:33]And then there's this thing about like you see other people who are so charismatic
[8:37]and they seem so confident and you somehow feel by comparison like deficient in some
[8:43]way you're like what are they doing that I'm not doing or what are they getting them that
[8:47]I don't get?
[8:48]And in the book we talk about this as the myth of naturalness.
[8:51]Yeah, because it's like you see other people being funny or saying something super smart
[8:56]and articulate or they're asking a really great question and you're trying to piece out
[9:01]what they're doing but turns out like that's not necessarily natural for them either.
[9:06]You can't see all of the effort and hard work and many good and bad conversations that
[9:12]they've been through to get to the point where they have this moment of charisma.
[9:16]So it's not effortless for anyone and it is learnable and we can all do it.
[9:21]It's like public speaking.
[9:22]It's same thing.
[9:23]Right.
[9:24]When you have to do it in front of a group like it has to be so nervous and now that
[9:27]people are like you're so comfortable on stage and I was like I used to like sweat so
[9:30]much I would like soak through my clothes but I've done it now like thousands of times
[9:34]so I'm okay with it right like you don't see the backstory and then you feel worse about
[9:38]yourself which of course you point out in the book.
[9:40]So one of the things you talked about is preparation for conversations which is the
[9:45]hallmark of this show right I love it because I have a book I'm always prepared.
[9:49]I know what I'm going to talk about or what I'm in I'm always interested in the thing
[9:53]that the person I'm about to talk to is also most interested in.
[9:56]So it sets it up for success I've been like analyzing the podcast in your.
[10:00]group right here.
[10:01]But you say that even in casual conversation or if you're going to a dinner party or
[10:04]whatever, you can prepare and that is not weird.
[10:08]It actually makes your conversations better and all that.
[10:12]So talk a little bit about that.
[10:14]I love the framing of podcasts, especially podcast about books.
[10:18]The book is like a huge topic seed, right?
[10:21]Like it is that it provides the content.
[10:24]You've prepped so thoroughly just by reading each book that you talk about with the authors.
[10:29]It just provides such beautiful fodder and you've thought ahead.
[10:33]And clearly they have also thought that they've been thinking about this.
[10:36]Their book for, I don't know, it's 20 years.
[10:39]So it's just a beautiful, it's why your conversation, it's part of why your conversations
[10:44]can be so rich and fulfilling and fun and meaningful.
[10:48]But the same is true for all of our conversations.
[10:50]It's not just for podcast episodes between gifted talkers who have these rich topic seeds.
[10:56]We can do the same things in all of our conversations.
[10:59]And many of my students have this reaction when we talk about topic prep as like, well,
[11:04]I'm not going to prep for a conversation with my mom or like, I'm not going to prep for
[11:08]a, I don't need to prep for a conversation with my best friend.
[11:11]We're just going to know what to talk about like always, like we always know.
[11:15]And this sort of insight here is even with people that you know really well.
[11:20]Once you get in a conversation, it's so easy to get lost in the sauce of this cognitively
[11:26]demanding task that we often forget to ask questions that we really need or want to know
[11:32]the answers to or that we know they need to talk about.
[11:36]Or we just sort of get very egocentric.
[11:38]So we just start talking about our own perspective too much.
[11:40]We forget to focus on the other person.
[11:43]It's just so easy to get overwhelmed by the coordination game of conversation that you
[11:48]forget to talk about things that are most important and in like the most direct pursuit
[11:53]of your actual goals.
[11:55]So even with people you know really well, your best friend, for example, maybe one of
[11:59]her parents is sick.
[12:00]Like you should remember to ask about her parents and you might forget to if you don't
[12:06]actually like write that down or reflect about it for even 10 seconds before the conversation
[12:10]starts.
[12:11]So topic prep doesn't need to be time consuming, elaborate.
[12:16]It doesn't need to, it doesn't require any like Googling or anything.
[12:19]You just literally need to think about for even 30 seconds.
[12:24]What are the things that we should be talking about?
[12:25]What do you think might, what what will my partner find interesting?
[12:28]What was this person doing the last time I talked to them?
[12:32]What were they doing in between the last time we talked and now like what should I ask
[12:36]them about?
[12:37]What will they find interesting?
[12:38]And just that 30 seconds of reflection makes them conversation so much better.
[12:43]It makes you feel less anxious because you always know a place you can go next that will
[12:49]be rewarding.
[12:51]There's fewer disfluencies, meaning fewer stutters and stumbles and moments of panic
[12:57]where you don't know what to talk about next.
[13:00]You're also more likely to land on mutually interesting topics like things that you know
[13:04]you should talk about and that will be fun to talk about and productive.
[13:07]The interesting finding, it's much, it makes it all much more enjoyable, which is the point
[13:12]of life.
[13:13]What we also find with topic prepos that it leads people to talk about more topics.
[13:18]So instead of sort of staying on the same thing and stagnating and letting it get boring
[13:23]and you start repeating your things you've already said, you pick up on the cues of like
[13:27]oh we should switch to something else and oh yeah I have a thing ready so we're just
[13:31]going to go there and that makes conversation much more engaging and fun.
[13:36]So yes topic prep is a huge winner and I don't just mean for some conversations sometimes
[13:42]every conversation with every partner even with like archetypes like hey I know I'm
[13:47]going to run into a stranger behind the bar at Starbucks.
[13:50]I could have a really great question ready for them or I know that I might be having
[13:55]a coffee and a coffee shop and someone at a nearby table might lean over and talk to me.
[13:59]I could have like a cool question ready for them.
[14:02]That's a different form of topic prep and it will also make that conversation better.
[14:06]It's an in a way you're teaching emotional intelligence right it's part of that part
[14:10]and parcel and I love in the back you have all these questions which people can sort of
[14:14]memorize and I was literally on the street last night with my kids and my husband we were
[14:19]walking to a more formal holiday situation and we were talking to them like hey at dinner
[14:25]instead of getting up and running around ask questions and we were talking about open-ended
[14:31]questions like don't say you know where are you going for holidays like say something
[14:37]like you know what was something he struggled with at work today or something that will
[14:42]lead them to a bigger conversation so I actually also feel like this has huge applicability
[14:47]for parents and kids and in teaching at an early age versus when we're grown-ups and have to
[14:51]play catch up perhaps I am biased because I'm a scientist of conversation but I have three kids
[14:57]and they're nine seven and five there and they're peak learning social skills age I suppose
[15:02]that's your whole life but it really feels like one of the main purposes of being a mom right
[15:08]now is helping them learn social skills and giving them feedback and role modeling social skills
[15:13]for them as well so I'm with you I'm constantly if I realize any of them have gone too long without
[15:19]asking a question of somebody I'll say you know you could ask a question right now and you know
[15:24]what they do it they're pretty great right and if you teach them about open-ended questions instead
[15:28]of where are you going for Christmas break or for holiday break they might say what are you excited
[15:33]about over break like what are you what are some things that you're going to be up to right and then
[15:37]and it's so magical to watch those skills unfold in our kids but it's also a reinforcement in
[15:45]ourselves of like oh yeah I should I should ask my friends what they're excited about on holiday
[15:49]break yeah and it's all this sort of reinforcing social network that's just so fabulous you have
[15:56]lots of charts and things which dissect this even further when you and you have four different
[16:03]things TAL case you know I am not going to remember them topics what's a what are the other ones
[16:07]hold asking asking levity levity that what was what's K give me a hint you're going to get it it's
[16:14]like the most important thing in life we learned it as children it's the kindness kindness yeah
[16:19]yeah we just won some sort of games a big job okay great thank you I'm so eager for approval that
[16:24]I have to like have you ask me school questions that I can answer okay so say a little bit about
[16:30]each of those we spoke about topics already yes so at every moment of every conversation you're
[16:35]choosing topics it helps to prep it helps to switch a little bit more quickly when you feel like
[16:40]things are getting boring those are there's a lot in the book about managing small talk as well
[16:45]and how we kind of use small talk as a launching pan A is for asking questions the top line sort
[16:53]of takeaway is we should be asking more questions and there are some particularly heroic questions
[16:58]including like you said open-ended questions especially questions that start with the word what
[17:03]which have informational benefits relational benefits questions that start with why can feel a bit
[17:09]accusatory like why did you ask your kids to do that you feel like a little bit like an attack
[17:14]and another heroic question is the follow-up question it shows that you've heard what someone said
[17:18]and you want to know more they're just magical L in talk is levity and levity is not trying to
[17:28]turn anyone into a comedian or a clown it's literally trying to find these opportunities these
[17:33]fleeting moments that can add some sparkle and fizz to our conversation so we don't get bored
[17:39]it's the antidote to boredom and it can come in the form of humor and laughter but it also
[17:44]comes in the form of warmth and sort of grabbing people in so compliments and just changing the
[17:50]topic to something new that they might find interesting so moments of levity to maintain mutual
[17:55]engagement k is for kindness and in a way all of the maxims all of this remark are working their way
[18:01]towards kindness I don't know about you but I feel like you learn the importance of kindness as a kid
[18:08]and all the way along you're like but what does it mean like what do I how do I do that how do I be
[18:13]the most kind person I can be and so the goal in the book was to provide a really concrete
[18:18]roadmap for what kind people do when they're talking to people and it feels so satisfying to get
[18:25]that out of this world and all of this of course then adds up right to rich conversations and
[18:32]meaningful conversations which is like conversation gold so what does that look like tell what how is
[18:38]that we this is how you achieve it and then like what is the like the outcome yeah the outcome
[18:44]yes the meaning of success in any conversation depends on what the people want right it's not my job
[18:51]as the author of this book it's not your job as a podcast host to tell them to tell people what
[18:56]they want and need everybody has their own desires their own their own needs their own relationships
[19:01]and so it's up to the people in the conversation to sort of know and figure out what do I want out
[19:07]of this and what does my partner want out of this maybe even more importantly and so in the book we
[19:12]provide a really concrete framework that we call the conversational compass because the part of what
[19:18]makes conversation so tricky is that every person everybody involved in the conversation doesn't
[19:23]just have one goal often you have many goals right you want to ask about how their mother is doing
[19:31]you want to persuade them to agree with your view of the new policy on abortion you
[19:36]you want to hear about the wedding they went to you want to have so much fun you want to laugh
[19:40]as much as you can you want to get their advice about a new upcoming work thing you want to also by
[19:45]the way you need to leave in five minutes like there's all of the we all have these goals and
[19:53]the challenge is one figuring out what they are like what is the meaning of success when we
[19:58]connect and
[20:00]two, how do I prioritize all of these many things that we all care about and then three coordinating
[20:05]with other people because they also have their own goals. You know, you only have 30 minutes
[20:11]to talk to me. I would die to talk to you for hours. When we can coordinate that, right? Like,
[20:18]just that alone is a hard thing to to manage. And so we have this framework in the book called
[20:23]The Compass. It helps us to organize all of our goals and really think a lot more concretely
[20:28]about like, well, what is varying here? What's the most important thing and when? Amazing.
[20:35]So what's the best, most successful quote unquote conversation you feel like you've had lately?
[20:40]Oh my gosh, Debbie. What a question. I've I've fantasized about going around like, you know, these
[20:45]Instagram people go around on the street. And this is the question that I fantasized about asking
[20:50]people. It's like, what's a great conversation? Honestly, I feel like every conversation I have is it such a gift.
[20:56]I know some people really love traveling the world. I honestly feel like I get to travel the world
[21:02]by talking to other people. It's like I go on a journey through their perspective,
[21:07]learn so much from them that I get to see the world through a different person's mind. It's just
[21:13]incredible. So yesterday I had three fabulous conversations, one with a visiting scholar from London
[21:22]who's been visiting all semester. And she sat in on all of my talk class sessions. She's just
[21:28]the sweetest and most competent brilliant woman. And she's now flying back to London. So we had to say
[21:32]goodbye. And we were just kind of debriefing the whole semester. Then I had this fabulous conversation
[21:39]with visiting scholar, my longtime friend who was visiting from Wharton. And he also studies
[21:46]conversation. And he's just this brilliant, brilliant man. And he just had a baby. So we got to talk
[21:52]about him in this new role as a father. So that was far ranging and energizing and so wonderful.
[21:58]And then last night, I play in a band and we had band practice. So we got to have this
[22:03]very challenging five person songwriting. We're prepping for a show on Friday. And so we got to
[22:10]you know, got to practice all of our songs. And what's better than that? So where do you perform?
[22:15]Oh my gosh. We practiced. One of our bandmates built a band barn. So we practiced in this state
[22:21]of the art gorgeous band barn at his house. This Friday we're playing at the lizard lounge
[22:26]in Cambridge, a really small underground, intimate place. And there might be some holiday
[22:32]theme surprises in the show, Debbie. Great. Actually, this is like a pet peeve of mine. I don't
[22:40]feel like you said, mentioned this in the book, but maybe I missed it. So growing up, my mother
[22:45]was always like, you have to use the other person's name all the time and conversation.
[22:50]So the point where she picks up the phone and it's like, Hi, this is Brooke. You know,
[22:55]how can I help you? And she'll be like, Oh, hi, Brooke. How are you? And like, maybe it's just
[23:00]reaction to my own mom that I intentionally do not, but I always pay attention when I'm especially
[23:06]in a podcast situation to how often people are using my name. And I wonder, are they doing that
[23:10]deliberately? Like, is that a skill that they are forcing themselves to do? Do they do this with
[23:15]everyone? Is it because we're on a podcast? Like, how do you feel about name use? Yeah, we
[23:20]I touch on this briefly in the chapter on kindness. Names matter a surprising amount.
[23:26]Everyone wants to feel seen and known. And when you don't know someone's name, it can cause a
[23:32]surprising amount of awkwardness and a conversation. And I think that comes from two directions.
[23:37]One, you're not going to be able to make someone feel seen and known if you don't even know
[23:41]their name being on zoom helps because our names are like right on the screen, right? But also,
[23:46]I think for the person saying someone else's name out loud, it's almost like a reminder to
[23:50]yourself of like, this is who I'm talking to. It's a reminder of like they have their own
[23:57]perspective and I should consider that they are a different person than me and that I care about
[24:01]them. So for me, it is actually helpful to say people's name. So as a reminder to myself,
[24:06]like who am I talking to? What do they care about? How can I focus on them? In the book,
[24:13]in different situations, people have different preferences about how they want to be referred to.
[24:18]So in the book we talk about, for example, traffic stops where police pull over citizens
[24:22]who've been speeding. And in those situations, people prefer being referred to by formal names,
[24:27]like a good evening, sir. How are right? Because it's the formality that that situation demands.
[24:34]In other situations, when you're with your close friends, your kids or your family,
[24:37]we love nicknames, right? It's so endearing. It's so loving and shows closeness. And in other
[24:43]situations nicknames might be completely inappropriate. So it's nuanced, but underlying
[24:48]all of it is this deep desire for everyone to feel known and seen. And so keeping in mind that
[24:55]like, if you don't know someone's name, you should probably ask. It's like, it's worth saying,
[25:01]do you want to remind me what your name is? That's not as awkward as you think it might be to ask.
[25:06]And then you know it and everything feels much closer and easier from that point forward.
[25:11]By the way, before this podcast, I wrote down your name.
[25:15]Interesting. Almost as a reminder to, because you know, I'm doing a lot of conversations.
[25:20]I want to make sure that I know who I'm with, not just know like on a name basis, but like
[25:26]seeing your name reminds me of all of the things that now in my brain are associated with
[25:30]your name. And that's quite helpful. So interesting. Oh my gosh. The last piece that I found
[25:35]so interesting is you used a case study. And I was actually wondering if this was a case in your
[25:41]with Carrie Fisher and Terry Gross and how Terry interviewed Carrie three different times over the
[25:46]course of her life. And actually, Carrie's daughter, Billy, is my husband's business partner
[25:50]and their production company. I know it's so funny. I know this whole world is so small. But anyway,
[25:54]Haley is an actress, right? Yeah, she's not. Yeah. Yeah. I love, she was in a book smart.
[26:00]Oh smart smart. Yeah. Oh God, that feels thematic. I know, right? I know. Everything is related.
[26:06]But you track the progression of the intimacy between Carrie and Terry and even different
[26:13]things that Terry asked or said in response that elicited even more information. So this is
[26:21]something I think about not consciously in the way you analyze in the book, but like every
[26:26]conversation I'm interested. Like how do I get to that next level? That's always my goal, not always,
[26:31]it's something that I aspire to do. So what did Terry Gross do with Carrie Fisher that we can
[26:37]all incorporate in our own conversations? Yeah. Terry Gross is a gifted conversationalist. She does
[26:43]all of the things that I talk about in the book in terms of topic prep. I mean, she in interviews
[26:49]has talked about how in how thoroughly she preps for every conversation really sort of next level
[26:55]topic prep out of Terry Gross. She's also an incredible listener, right? So once she's in the
[27:01]conversation, she is listening very intensely. Not only for content and ideas, but I think she does
[27:06]something that we should all do, which is she chases the energy. If she senses that there's energy
[27:12]on a topic or that someone might have more to say, she's going to ask a lot of follow-up questions
[27:16]to sort of draw that out of them. If she feels the energy flagging or stagnating, she's quite
[27:22]quick to switch to something else because she has so many topics prepped to ask about and it's
[27:28]so easy to move somewhere else. But I do think she's quite gifted at sort of keeping her hand on the
[27:33]that emotional temperature dial and sensing like, where should we taste the energy next? And you
[27:39]can hear it in the conversations with Carrie, Carrie Fisher, who herself is quite good at chasing the
[27:44]energy as well and creating the energy. Actually, she's so funny. Wow. Okay. So what's your
[27:51]biggest goal for this whole book? Oh, all the things. I want everyone to have this not only
[27:58]have this book, but read it and share it and learn it. I really think that we would the world
[28:06]would be a better place if everyone learns to communicate better. There's no competitiveness in
[28:13]this meaning like the more people who learn to talk well, the better off everyone is. So I just
[28:19]I'm dying for people to absorb these ideas, try them in their lives, see what feels good,
[28:27]see what works for you and what doesn't. And then talk about it with other people so that they
[28:32]can learn it too. I'm really excited to see what other opportunities come my way from and to hear
[28:38]how people what resonates with people the most, though I've already taught all this stuff to sort
[28:43]of, you know, thousands of people. So I know that I know that it works and I know that it can work
[28:49]a lot more people. Well, maybe because you can't sort of quadruple yourself and be everywhere. You
[28:55]should do some sort of training where you have taught coaches and like every school, there's like
[29:00]the talk coach or somehow make modules and scale it because I was already thinking you should come
[29:05]talk to my school. Actually, no, you should come to the child minus student. You should talk to
[29:08]this person like you can't be everywhere. But if you could make everyone like talk ambassadors or
[29:14]something, I would love it. It is a, it is a huge dream of mine that someone will feel inspired and
[29:20]turn this into sort of like K12 education. I really think, I mean, the book would be appropriate
[29:26]for high schoolers to read probably middle schoolers as well. But you could adapt it for younger
[29:31]children and it would just be so this is what we're talking about when we're talking about like
[29:35]social emotional learning and schools is like this is where it happens. It happens when people are
[29:40]talking to each other. Okay, so next you have to do a middle grade adaptation or a children's book,
[29:44]let's talk and make it like with some pictures and then my kids could buy that book. Anyway,
[29:49]you have your work head out for you. But I find this so energizing. I'm so excited. This whole
[29:54]science of conversation. This is a college conversation exists and that you are the front runner of
[29:59]this whole thing.
[30:00]and it is so exciting to me.
[30:01]So anyway, congratulations,
[30:03]and I'm gonna be spreading the word far and wide.
[30:05]So yes, congrats.
[30:07]Thank you, Zibi.
[30:08]And thank you for being such a wonderful talker
[30:09]and spreading so many great ideas through conversation.
[30:12]You're amazing.
[30:13]Thank you.
[30:14]Okay.
[30:15]Have a great day.
[30:16]Thank you.
[30:17]Goodbye.
[30:17]Thank you.
[30:18]Bye, else.
[30:19]Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi.
[30:22]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[30:24]If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review,
[30:28]follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[30:30]and spread the word.
[30:32]Thanks so much.
[30:33]Oh, and bye the books.