Olivia Campbell, SISTERS IN SCIENCE: How Four Women Physicists Escaped Nazi Germany and Made Scientific History
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[0:45]Olivia Campbell is the author of Sisters and Science, how four women physicists escaped
[0:50]Nazi Germany and made scientific history.
[0:53]Olivia is the New York Times bestselling author of Women in White Coats, an accomplished
[0:57]journalist and essayist, her work has appeared in the Atlantic National Geographic,
[1:02]New York Magazine history, and the Guardian, among others.
[1:05]She is an editor at dot dash Meredith and a thesis advisor for Johns Hopkins University's
[1:09]Science Writing Program.
[1:11]Welcome, Olivia.
[1:12]Thank you so much for coming back on moms don't have time to read books to discuss
[1:15]sisters in science, how four women physicists escaped Nazi Germany, and made scientific
[1:21]history.
[1:22]Congratulations on this book.
[1:24]Thank you so much.
[1:25]I love this book.
[1:26]This book has to be a movie.
[1:27]I'm going to post about it because I took this really cool picture of it.
[1:30]But I was like, should I post and say attention all producers make this a movie, or should
[1:36]I try to email anyone I know first and say like this a movie, and so that they're not
[1:40]like, why'd you best about it?
[1:43]It's very epic.
[1:45]It's so, you know, cinematic.
[1:48]The stories are just so incredible and the fact that we haven't really heard hardly any of
[1:53]them.
[1:54]They look no, these might not the most, right, but even her name really isn't the
[1:58]household name that it should be, you know, she worked with Einstein.
[2:02]There's two, I have photos of her with, with Einstein.
[2:04]There's a regular, you know, collaborators that this, I was shocked, you know, by discovering
[2:11]how impactful these women's lives were and how little we had heard of them, you know.
[2:15]Me too.
[2:16]I'm like, who even are these?
[2:17]I didn't recognize them.
[2:18]Their pictures aren't anywhere.
[2:20]I don't know.
[2:21]It's just not only are these women amazing, and I feel like you should explain the whole
[2:26]premise of the book, but not only were the stories of these women and some of the unlikely
[2:30]certain, their survival, the unlikely survival and all of that, but it just goes to show
[2:36]how much was also lost, right?
[2:39]How much potential women, Jewish women, was just imagine what could have been contributed.
[2:45]That's all.
[2:47]That was really like, I wanted to drive that home as the main point of this.
[2:52]Like my, my first idea for this book before I even discovered, you know, the characters
[2:57]or anything, I was like, I want to find a woman who made it out and a woman who didn't
[3:02]make it out.
[3:03]And then I went to juxtaposition that.
[3:04]And I actually had more of several women who didn't make it out in the book of my editor
[3:07]was like, you know, they're not the main focus.
[3:09]You have to, you know, pull that back a little bit.
[3:13]The chapter, I mean, I was really dedicated to having that chapter full of all of these
[3:17]women scientists who didn't make it out, you know, that it was so hard to research it
[3:23]right.
[3:24]Every time I edited it, I was crying, you know, while I was researching, I was crying.
[3:27]This was a really intense book to write, but I was really married to the fact that these
[3:34]stories were going to go in there because that is my point.
[3:38]Yes, these four women made it out, but so many other students, so much lost potential.
[3:44]The story of the husband and wife team who was working on this research that was really
[3:49]important.
[3:50]Like this was like massive research.
[3:52]And then they're, you know, the Nazis murdered them.
[3:55]And then their kids took over the research, you know, once the Nazis had left and they
[3:59]completed that and they got to know about, you know, these people would have won prizes.
[4:03]These people made, would have made really impactful memories and the research and just
[4:10]the level of destruction, the hands, the how far the hand of destruction reaches throughout
[4:16]history was shocking to me.
[4:18]So to back up for a second, so the book really tackles, why don't you give it your elevator
[4:23]elevator picture that I want to keep diving deep?
[4:26]Sorry.
[4:27]Yeah, I'm really, I'm really excited to talk about it, we do, we do, but just for context
[4:32]those who haven't really, of course, of course, yes, so it was interesting science.
[4:35]I developed this idea from what the first thing I did was I went to this Northeast
[4:40]University research database where they were compiling information on women scientists
[4:45]in the Nazi era, and who was getting the awards, who was, you know, who was got fellowships
[4:50]who got out who didn't, it was full of information like whether they had kids, whether
[4:54]they were married, what languages they spoke, whether, you know, native country, whether
[4:59]they were Jewish or not.
[5:01]So I was trolling this database going, okay, there's got to be something or there's
[5:05]something that needs to be told here.
[5:08]And I found these three women who all have age names, right, Hedwig, Hildegar, and
[5:14]her son, and then we have Lee is also who is much more famous, so she's going to, you
[5:19]know, bring more people into the book.
[5:21]So I found these stories of these four women who all happen to know each other at some
[5:25]point, where, you know, they're, they're working together to help each other get out
[5:30]of Nazi Germany.
[5:32]The fact that they, most of them were in the same area of physics too was, was just,
[5:37]I couldn't believe what I'd found.
[5:39]So it's a story of how these four women physicists help each other and try to stay in Germany
[5:47]for as long as possible realize, you know, two of them are Jewish, two of them aren't,
[5:51]but the ones who aren't Jewish are very much anti-Nazi, they're, you know, their, their
[5:56]ideas and ideals are going to get them kicked out anyway, or, or basically because they
[6:00]were women, they, they didn't have jobs anymore, right, the Nazis were also deeply misogynists,
[6:05]you know, as well as being anti-Semitic.
[6:08]So it's the sort of how these four women managed by the skin of their teeth to escape
[6:13]the Nazis, like the two Jewish people were definitely, you know, on the chopping, like they
[6:18]were very close to being sent to death camps.
[6:23]The one of the non-Jewish women her sister was in the resistance and she was murdered
[6:26]by the night, you know, it's just because they weren't Jewish, it's just, I mean, they
[6:29]weren't going to much get murdered.
[6:31]So it's a story about resilience, but also about horror, you know, the, there's no sugar
[6:38]coating it, like, while I was writing this book, I'm like, I don't know how authors write
[6:42]happy comforting, you know, cozy books about this era, because it is not cozy and comforting.
[6:48]Like, yes, the story is about the four women who escaped and went on to make, you know,
[6:56]develop scientific communities in other countries, right, or this struggle to develop
[7:01]scientific communities in other countries.
[7:03]Most of them went on to teach or mentor at universities, and so they used their expertise
[7:08]in other ways, but they definitely, their potential was squashed for sure.
[7:12]I think if they had staged with their research groups in Germany, you know, if the Nazis
[7:18]had never come to power, then so much more advancement would have been made in their science
[7:24]and their research.
[7:25]They really, we lost a lot of potential even though they survived.
[7:29]It's amazing.
[7:30]I'm so grateful that you were the one who dug deep and found all these stories and
[7:36]traced the history and I even found it really interesting, the people who tried to be allies,
[7:41]and the people who tried to help the universities that tried, you know, even the history
[7:45]of how American colleges were involved in pre-holocaust, even trying to save scholars, and
[7:54]who did this and who did what.
[7:55]I found that totally interesting as well, especially as college campuses now are such a
[8:00]hotbed for protests and all of this.
[8:03]Like, it's so ironic.
[8:05]Have we progressed?
[8:06]I don't know.
[8:08]The letters from the deans and the higher-up people are like, ooh, if they're a mole,
[8:13]what if they're, you know, this was a huge deal.
[8:16]Earlier on, when it wasn't before people knew what the Nazis were about, people were moving
[8:24]over here because they realized what was about to happen.
[8:27]We have scholars moving to America fairly easily and then as we get through the 30s,
[8:33]we have huge restrictions going down because we have a flood of people trying to lead,
[8:38]right?
[8:39]And that's when we have these colleges going, ooh, I don't know, maybe we shouldn't
[8:43]take this person.
[8:44]And it's really the difference between life and death for a lot of these scholars was
[8:48]to have that one person in one college that was like, okay, I'm going to go to bat for
[8:53]you.
[8:54]I've never met you.
[8:55]I have no idea what your life is a person, but I'm going to save your life, you know,
[9:01]like if you didn't have that person, then you had all those other voices at this college
[9:05]is saying, well, what if they're, you know, a Nazi plan or trying to like, you know,
[9:10]they're bringing communism or, you know, just wild ideas about what these women were going
[9:16]to be trying to do.
[9:18]And it was really just crazy, like that they didn't need to be worried about this, right?
[9:24]They just needed to say, oh, okay, yes, we can pull you over for a semester, a year,
[9:30]you know, they didn't need much to get out of the country.
[9:32]They just needed the college to say, okay, sure.
[9:35]And they had all these organizations saying, oh, here, we'll give you the money, just
[9:38]take this person, just say we have a position, just create a position for this person.
[9:42]We have the money.
[9:44]And they were still like, oh, I don't know.
[9:46]Oh, yeah, was that one, you needed that one person just to say, okay, yes, I, you know,
[9:52]the person that brought me to you through this other organization, I believe in them.
[9:57]So I believe in you that you're not a plant.
[10:00]I mean, it just goes to show the power of what you can do
[10:04]for an individual can have worldwide consequences.
[10:07]I feel like people are like, well, I only,
[10:10]what if I could only save these two people?
[10:13]Or what, you know, does it matter?
[10:14]Yeah, it all matters.
[10:16]Like every life saved is a life in generations,
[10:19]not to be overly simplistic, but your book highlights this
[10:23]in such vivid detail because as you outline
[10:25]all the scientific achievements of the women,
[10:28]you're like, by the end, you're like,
[10:29]for good to say, look what she did.
[10:31]You know, like, come on.
[10:33]I can like hear you getting a, like, come on.
[10:35]You know, I love it because it's powerful stuff.
[10:39]And it was so easy.
[10:40]And you know, at one point you outline again,
[10:42]some of the things that I know, right?
[10:44]I've learned all this a million times,
[10:45]the rules of the Nazis, how it slowly started
[10:48]and the early 30s and built up.
[10:50]Like I've learned this over and over,
[10:51]although it's super useful for people
[10:53]who may not have known all of this backstory.
[10:55]And then you even include again the statistics
[10:58]of how many people each country welcomed in at the time
[11:02]and the boat that got turned away and all of that.
[11:05]And seeing the numbers, it's so small.
[11:07]Like there were so few people that other people
[11:10]took in relative to the large scale destruction
[11:13]and just seeing it in stark relief
[11:15]and seeing individual women who are trying to get in
[11:18]and can't and saying like, are you part of the 60,000 people?
[11:23]Like what makes you okay?
[11:25]Like what if they had led in more?
[11:28]I don't know, doesn't your mind just spiral?
[11:30]I had to step away so many times from this book.
[11:32]I pushed the deadline.
[11:33]It was so much and I had to also kind of try
[11:37]really hard to avoid the creep.
[11:39]Like there are so many books about just about the Holocaust,
[11:42]just about these things.
[11:43]Like you said, a lot of people know these things.
[11:44]And I had to, when you start to like,
[11:47]it gets really overwhelming when you think
[11:49]that you have to include all these things in your book.
[11:51]Right, you have to really laser focus
[11:52]on these people's stories,
[11:54]but I really needed those context points also.
[11:57]And yes, to juxtaposition these stories
[12:00]against those numbers.
[12:02]And I also, I discussed in the book a little bit,
[12:04]but it really bugged me that the scholars
[12:08]were the ones getting attention, right?
[12:09]It was very eugenics-esque in a way that the Nazis
[12:13]were advocating for, but that the resistance was saying,
[12:16]this was not good, but at the same time,
[12:19]the allies are going, oh, we'll take this person,
[12:21]they're smart, they have at least degrees.
[12:23]Sure, we'll let them in, they will have a special visa
[12:27]for these kind of people.
[12:29]And that was really disturbing to me as well.
[12:32]And I wanted to highlight these stories,
[12:34]but I also wanted to highlight that lots of people
[12:37]that didn't have degrees were not scholars.
[12:39]They're the ones that are getting left behind
[12:42]in addition to scholars that also got left behind.
[12:44]But the special category for smart people
[12:48]was also bothersome to me.
[12:50]It's crazy.
[12:50]And how you've been to find you to lay
[12:53]like what is right to be useful.
[12:54]What, how do you determine that?
[12:57]Crazy, you have a paragraph.
[12:59]Can I read this towards the end or at the end, rather?
[13:02]If we take anything away from these women's stories,
[13:05]it should be that the Nazis didn't win.
[13:08]The Nazis didn't rob the world of all its Jewish thinkers
[13:11]or women scholars, despite its determined efforts to do so.
[13:15]The Nazis could never rob their opponents
[13:17]of their indomitable spirit, their will to go on
[13:20]and help others do the same.
[13:21]These women's stories show us the importance
[13:23]of maintaining hope in the face of despair,
[13:26]of persevering amidst desperation.
[13:29]They illustrate the power of fascism
[13:31]and institutionalized intolerance to rob the world
[13:34]of incredible minds and severely stunned scientific progress.
[13:38]But they also show us how sisterhood
[13:41]and scientific curiosity can transcend borders
[13:43]and persist flourish even in the face
[13:46]of seemingly insurmountable odds.
[13:50]Oh my gosh, so good.
[13:52]I mean, I had tears in my eyes like finishing this.
[13:54]Like it gives us hope, literally goosebumps again.
[13:57]Hope, you're giving us hope, like evil can't win.
[14:01]It can damage, it can hurt, but it can't win.
[14:05]I'm really upset by how timely this is.
[14:07]I didn't want it to be tough.
[14:09]I didn't want the story of fighting fascism
[14:12]to be relevant to today, but it absolutely is.
[14:15]And I've got it that it is, but the parallels
[14:19]that I was seeing in my research were shocking to me.
[14:23]Yes, there are absolutely applicable lessons to today here.
[14:26]The rally against the theory of relativity
[14:29]that I found out about that.
[14:31]I can see that happening today.
[14:32]Like you see it basically today,
[14:35]there was an onion headline that was very similar to that.
[14:39]And I was like, no, no, that actually happened.
[14:41]That was real.
[14:42]And I can absolutely envision that happening today.
[14:46]Someone said something to me recently, like,
[14:48]welcome to being a part of Jewish history.
[14:50]Like we are living through a historic time now.
[14:53]And we can't see the end, which is crazy
[14:55]when the present is something you know
[14:57]what we history later.
[14:58]And you don't know where it's going.
[15:00]But I feel like in these moments of uncertainty,
[15:03]having a book like yours and having context and hope
[15:07]and roadmaps.
[15:09]And even love, right?
[15:10]You threw in a little love story in there,
[15:12]which was nice.
[15:13]Thank you for that.
[15:15]Gotta love some midlife love.
[15:18]It took so long.
[15:19]It was so beautiful.
[15:20]And I, you know, you have to be so careful
[15:22]that you're not like, you know,
[15:24]he was married before.
[15:25]I didn't want to insinuate there was anything
[15:27]on toward going on.
[15:28]You could definitely tell she was totally in love with him
[15:32]the whole time.
[15:33]But she would not, you know, she loved the family.
[15:35]She loved his wife and his kid.
[15:36]Like she would never have done anything to ruin that,
[15:39]you know, and that she waited a very long time.
[15:42]And she, yeah, she got her mad in the end.
[15:44]It was so beautiful.
[15:45]And, you know, the fact that she was so dedicated to him
[15:49]that she couldn't stay in Germany anymore.
[15:51]You know, she wasn't Jewish, but he was.
[15:53]So she was like, no, you know,
[15:55]what look what you've done to him?
[15:57]This is not fair.
[15:58]I'm done with you.
[16:00]You know, she goes to Norway and they find out
[16:02]and she's become, you know,
[16:04]and now she's an enemy of the state.
[16:05]And yes, it's very much a movie.
[16:08]It definitely.
[16:10]So, but it has not been optioned yet, right?
[16:12]Not like this.
[16:13]No.
[16:14]Okay. Well, I mean, it's so good.
[16:17]Not that it has to be a movie.
[16:18]I mean, I remember talking to my brother
[16:20]one point, trying to talk about like,
[16:22]well, why is my book not being a movie?
[16:23]He's like, why can you not be happy
[16:25]that you actually just achieved what you were trying to do,
[16:27]which is write a book?
[16:28]Like, why does it now have to be something else?
[16:30]And I'm like, I don't know.
[16:31]Cause there's always something else to try to get, you know?
[16:34]Like, I feel like it's, it's accessibility here
[16:37]in this country, at least.
[16:38]I feel like movies are seen by so many more people.
[16:41]And so that's why we sort of elevate.
[16:43]But yes, the book should be just as an accomplishment
[16:46]as a film and there's always more information
[16:49]and more detail and more uniqueness to a book, honestly.
[16:52]So, but the simple stories, the stories of the women,
[16:56]the stories of these lives are so poignant.
[17:00]And so representative of this time and overcoming, right?
[17:05]This is the ultimate sort of resilience and faith
[17:09]and circumstance and what if they had been born
[17:12]at a later time, right?
[17:13]What if they're just so many what ifs?
[17:16]And who, and again, like I started saying,
[17:18]which I have to stop it, who didn't make it?
[17:21]And where would we be as a society if one nation hadn't decided
[17:27]to eliminate all these people, what advances would be made?
[17:30]What diseases would be cured?
[17:32]Where would we be?
[17:34]Alternate narratives.
[17:35]That was the point that I kept sticking on, you know,
[17:38]if we didn't have racism, if we didn't have anti-Semitism,
[17:40]if we didn't have misogyny.
[17:43]That was what kills so many of these women.
[17:45]That's what, because they weren't allowed to be achieving,
[17:49]you know, at higher levels in academia,
[17:51]they were not seen as a good candidate to import
[17:55]to a new university, right?
[17:56]Because the universities in Germany had been like,
[17:59]oh, we are a woman, we're not going to let you become
[18:01]a professor yet, we're not going to certify you.
[18:04]Oh, you can't come work with it for us,
[18:05]but what about you're going to be an assistant
[18:07]for your whole life?
[18:08]Well, then so this emergency comes and they need to escape.
[18:12]Well, all these other universities outside of Germany
[18:15]are like, oh, well, you're just an assistant,
[18:17]we don't need more of you.
[18:18]That's not cool.
[18:20]That's why they died.
[18:21]That's why, because they weren't allowed to pursue
[18:26]what they were capable of, because universities
[18:29]were like, no, because you're a woman, you can't do it.
[18:31]Also, because you're Jewish, a lot, you know,
[18:33]anti-Semitism was not new.
[18:35]And then that's, you know, when the Nazis took power,
[18:38]it had been being sold in the country since the 20s
[18:41]and before, you know, and even when they came to the US,
[18:46]there was anti-Semitism, you know, we have had re-forward,
[18:50]you know, being mentioned in my cup as a great guy.
[18:54]This is, you know, they were not coming
[18:56]to welcoming circumstances always.
[18:59]But yeah, I was really struck by how misogyny
[19:03]translated into death, like literally meant death.
[19:06]And today, you know, that's limiting our autonomy
[19:10]on our over bodies.
[19:11]Like that's how misogyny kills women today.
[19:15]But this, you know, keeping them back in the careers.
[19:17]The reason we know all the names of the male physicists
[19:21]that we know that are household uses,
[19:22]because they were already famous in Germany
[19:25]before they immigrated, because that's why they looked
[19:28]like in candidates, you know, I said, I had a Nobel.
[19:30]Of course, he was going to be pulled out
[19:32]and able to go to any country he wanted to.
[19:36]But these women were being held back.
[19:38]They had been trying to become professor.
[19:39]They had been trying to move up in their careers for decades.
[19:42]And they were not allowed to.
[19:45]They had barely been allowed to attend university.
[19:47]These were the first women who were like legally allowed
[19:50]to attend university and a lot of cases.
[19:53]In the sciences, especially, it was very hard.
[19:56]And I had to start as, you know, elevated assistance.
[20:00]just to get their work in.
[20:01]Yeah, most of them were started with unpaid jobs.
[20:04]And my copy editor was like, can it
[20:07]be called a job?
[20:07]It's unpaid.
[20:08]I'm like, well, that's what it was.
[20:09]I don't know what to tell you what that was at the time.
[20:12]And you're like, today, these would be called volunteers.
[20:16]Yes, exactly.
[20:17]But they were considered workers that were unpaid.
[20:20]Like, yes, it was it was crazy that they were not
[20:24]able to support themselves.
[20:26]They had still had to rely on other work.
[20:28]They're editing papers.
[20:30]They're, you know, some of them might have had family money
[20:33]coming in, probably not a lot.
[20:35]But they had to find other ways to live.
[20:37]And we have stories of leaves, like deciding what's important.
[20:41]Like she's always saying it's money for cigarettes, right?
[20:43]Like I love that.
[20:44]But I also love that she was like this lifelong smoker,
[20:46]but she lived to be the oldest of all of them.
[20:48]It's just the glorious FU to the Nazis.
[20:50]I love it.
[20:52]Oh, my gosh.
[20:53]It's crazy.
[20:54]How long did this whole project take you?
[20:56]Oh, my gosh.
[20:57]Longer than I'd hoped.
[20:58]So I don't know anything about physics.
[21:01]My work has largely been women's health, popular psychology,
[21:07]you know, more of the poppy sciences.
[21:09]So this, you know, it's a learning curve for sure.
[21:12]I don't know, German, and I'm not Jewish.
[21:15]So I had all of these things to learn about before I
[21:18]could process these stories and, you know,
[21:20]transform them into a readable narrative that was engaging.
[21:25]So yeah, I had to get a translator.
[21:26]I had to read up on on physics.
[21:29]And I had a sensitivity reader to a sensitivity reader
[21:32]at the end also who pointed out any problems for me.
[21:36]The biggest thinking point that she found was the really
[21:39]interesting aspect of Lisa's life, which is she was,
[21:43]her ancestors were Jewish, but she did not consider herself Jewish
[21:46]because she wasn't practicing the faith, right?
[21:48]Well, the Nazis didn't care whether you practiced the faith
[21:51]that it was all about your ancestry.
[21:53]So to like how to describe that she did not self identify as Jewish,
[21:57]but she was being identified as Jewish.
[22:01]So, you know, she felt very uneasy about being welcomed in the US
[22:04]as a Jewish heroine after the war.
[22:07]And because she didn't really identify as that,
[22:10]but because she was viewed as that,
[22:12]she was always referred to as Jewish.
[22:14]So I tried really hard to articulate that appropriately
[22:18]in the book in a way that wouldn't make it sound like the Nazis
[22:22]were correct in the way that they were viewing her, right?
[22:24]The way that they identified people was not
[22:27]how they always identified, but, you know, that didn't matter.
[22:30]Wow.
[22:32]Crazy, crazy stories.
[22:34]Worry or did you consider like, I'm not Jewish.
[22:38]Why am I going out in a limb for these people?
[22:41]Did like, you know, like, or is this story
[22:44]going to be received positively?
[22:46]Or did you have any thoughts like that at all?
[22:49]I do, and I see a lot of authors writing about
[22:53]cultures that aren't theirs, and I kind of bristle, you know,
[22:56]I see a lot of white women writing black women histories,
[22:59]and I bristle at that.
[23:01]I hope that I got it right.
[23:03]I'm a believer that you can write about whatever you want,
[23:06]but you deserve to have the feedback, you know,
[23:08]important on you that you deserve.
[23:10]I felt that since the story I had two Jewish women and two
[23:13]not Jewish women that it was probably more my,
[23:16]but okay for me to tell.
[23:18]And the fact that I was going to get a sensitivity reader,
[23:23]the fact that I was trying to be really, you know,
[23:26]sensitive about these things.
[23:27]I hope that that has worked in my favor.
[23:30]I hope it is translated, okay.
[23:32]But I, you know, if Jewish people are going to be upset
[23:36]about parts, I will be very upset about that,
[23:38]because I tried very hard to do justice to all the stories.
[23:42]I feel like you win like the Jewish ally award.
[23:46]I hope that nobody would find anything to be upset with
[23:51]and I certainly didn't.
[23:53]I didn't know if you were Jewish or not.
[23:55]It didn't actually occur to me until we were just talking
[23:57]and you mentioned it.
[23:58]I was like, oh, she's not Jewish.
[23:59]I mean, I hadn't even thought about it.
[24:01]But then the fact that you're not makes it even more amazing
[24:03]that you're going out on this limb,
[24:05]and it's not an easy time to publish Jewish stories.
[24:09]And not only are you doing that bravely now,
[24:12]you didn't have to, you didn't, you know,
[24:14]but this is history and this is so important.
[24:18]So hats off to you and I think it's great.
[24:22]I think it's really wonderful and important
[24:25]and I hope many people follow on your footsteps
[24:28]and you will, I'm sure, be flooded with gratitude
[24:31]rather than vitriol.
[24:32]So I hope that comes to pass.
[24:34]Well, your support means a lot to me.
[24:36]Thank you.
[24:37]And I'm excited that it's being published
[24:38]during Hanukkah.
[24:39]It could be a nice Hanukkah gift to you.
[24:41]Absolutely.
[24:42]Yes.
[24:44]Love it.
[24:44]Love it.
[24:45]A little uplifting.
[24:46]Well, I'm excited.
[24:47]I know this will find its way to the screen one way or another
[24:50]because it is such a great story.
[24:52]They're all great stories.
[24:53]I'll interwoven.
[24:54]The whole thing is great.
[24:55]So congratulations and...
[24:57]Thank you so much.
[24:58]Thanks for all the work you did.
[24:59]Thank you.
[25:00]Thank you for having me.
[25:01]My pleasure.
[25:02]Thank you for listening to totally booked with Zibi.
[25:05]Formerly, moms don't have time to read books.
[25:07]If you loved the show, tell a friend.
[25:10]Leave a review.
[25:11]Follow me on Instagram at Zibi Owens
[25:13]and spread the word.
[25:15]Thanks so much.
[25:16]Go and buy the books.