Sophie Cousens, IS SHE REALLY GOING OUT WITH HIM?
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[0:42]Sophie Cousins is the author of Is She Really Going Out With Him?
[0:46]This is my Zibi's Book Club pick, by the way, for December, so get reading.
[0:52]Sophie Cousins worked as a TV producer in London for 12 years.
[0:56]She is now a full-time novelist and screenwriter who lives with her family on the island of Jersey, one of the Channel Islands.
[1:02]She is also the New York Times best-selling author of this time next year, just haven't met you yet, before I do, and the good part.
[1:10]Her work has been translated into 21 languages, and her adaptation of this time next year has been produced into a film.
[1:17]Welcome back, Sophie.
[1:18]To moms, don't have time to read books so delighted to have you here again for your latest book, which I am obsessed with.
[1:25]So, tell us-
[1:26]Thank you for having me on.
[1:27]It's such a such honor, thank you.
[1:31]Okay, tell us everything about the book.
[1:34]When did you tell us the plot? Tell everything readers have to know.
[1:39]So, it's called Is She Really Going Out With Him, and it is about a woman called Anna Appleby, who is a journalist, who is divorced, and she's not really feeling like she wants to herself back out there again.
[1:53]She's never internet dated, and when she dabbles with it, she just hates it.
[1:58]But she finds herself in a position where she needs to pitch a dating column for work.
[2:04]Otherwise, her job's going to be on the line.
[2:06]So, she comes up with a fresh angle, which is that she's going to let her kids choose her dates for her.
[2:11]Her sister sort of jokingly says, I bet your kids know you better than the online algorithm.
[2:16]And that's where the sort of idea is born.
[2:18]So, she ends up kind of going on dates picked by her children.
[2:21]And obviously, her children don't have like a huge range of people to choose from.
[2:25]So, it ends up being the divorce dad from school gates or, you know, the swimming coach or something.
[2:32]And it's really about a divorcee who is reluctant to get back into the dating pool, who finds herself dragged back in.
[2:39]And yeah, maybe she finds love along the way.
[2:43]It is so funny, Sophie. It's funny and heartwarming and the way you write the kids is so great, Ethan.
[2:53]And what's the other kid's name?
[2:55]Yeah.
[2:56]Jess and Ethan are so adorable.
[2:58]And the everyday life scenes in particular, I found just so real relatable.
[3:04]Like what it's like balancing stress at work and the kids and involving them and everything.
[3:11]Like too much and where do you draw the line and the ex-husband.
[3:15]I mean, it's just, it was so on point.
[3:18]I mean, this is something that I was really excited about with this book because I think you're writing about younger protagonists who don't have any, you know,
[3:25]baggage and inverted commas.
[3:27]It's a much simpler in a way because you're just looking for the right person and you're looking for love and waiting for them to turn up.
[3:32]And I think what I loved about this book is that actually when you do have a family and you have other responsibilities and you have a lot of feelings
[3:40]about ex, I mean, she's over him, but it's still complicated.
[3:45]It's not just a cut and dry right on with the next part of my life.
[3:48]And so I found company and a love story from that angle of complexity.
[3:54]Really, really interesting.
[3:56]Yeah.
[3:57]And a lot of my kind of friends and contemporaries are going through this now.
[4:00]And I think that, I think it's, yeah, I think it's really interesting.
[4:04]I also found the choice of candidates for the dating quite amusing and other crazy situations.
[4:12]The, the fishing, can you share a little bit more about the fishing date because I think that was my favorite with the hook.
[4:18]Oh, again, I was laughing at that.
[4:20]Yeah.
[4:21]So obviously she sort of tells her children right, you can pick dates and it's funny.
[4:25]Like when you ask, had you had your hair door to his 12 and her son is seven and, you know, when you ask them the criteria by which they might pick people.
[4:33]It's very different to, you know, when she asked her colleagues at work, they're like, you know, are you into the gym?
[4:38]Are you into yoga and all these criteria that's the algorithms want you to know?
[4:43]And the kids are like, oh, you should go out and tell you that at school because he hates bikes and you hate bikes.
[4:48]And that's the kind of beginning of, okay, right.
[4:51]That's the reason enough to go on a date.
[4:54]And also the kids get to pick where they go.
[4:56]They think it's really boring that their mom thought animals generally just goes to the pub for a drink.
[5:02]And how boring is that?
[5:04]So they decide they should go fishing.
[5:06]But yeah, she ends up going on a fishing date.
[5:08]And let's just put it and say there's like a little bit of a physical accident with the hook, which ruins any potential romance right there.
[5:17]They also love the younger waiter from the restaurant and how they go to this party.
[5:23]And she's so much older and waking up and trying to, you know, put her best face forward with her kids and her ex the next morning and her colleague.
[5:31]I mean, it's just so funny. I don't know.
[5:33]I mean, I have to say one of my very good friends who has been divorced recently.
[5:38]And she's, there's a lot of anecdotes that have happened in her life, which she tells me.
[5:43]And then I did have to send her the drop to this.
[5:45]And I was like, is there a few things in here that might recognize?
[5:48]I just want to check that you're happy that they've gone in my book.
[5:52]Oh my gosh.
[5:54]Well, now that answers the question is to where all this all this comes from.
[5:58]I just love it.
[5:59]I also love the stress at work piece of it as well and having to sort of keep up with the times and that even though what you're doing is resonating.
[6:08]It's like not enough, right?
[6:10]You have to continually reinvent and keep up and it's like why?
[6:15]Why if it's if it's working?
[6:17]Like why do I have to do all this stuff to really like tell me a little bit about that and the changing column and the shifting tides at work and all of that.
[6:26]Yeah, so Anna was a journalist and she's a good journalist.
[6:29]I think, you know, you get that impression when you read the book, but she sort of works hard and she knows this stuff.
[6:34]But there's a sort of shift at work where there's new management coming in and that kind of cleaning house.
[6:39]And there's this real pressure to sort of be more vulnerable and be more yourselves and sort of put your heart on the line and share your soul.
[6:47]You know, her new boss sort of sites it as like the reason the next generation love TikTok is because people are, you know, literally bearing their souls and sort of telling it how it is.
[6:57]And for Anna who's sort of 38, she's not that comfortable with the idea and she sort of think, can I just do my job and be good and put the work in.
[7:05]And I think that's a really interesting kind of conflict, especially, I mean, I can find that a little bit in writing, especially when you're thinking about, oh, how can I promote my book and you can do articles and you see people.
[7:16]do very, very personal articles about their own story and their own life and how it relates to their writing.
[7:22]And then you sort of feel like, well, do I have to be, do I have to completely open my heart and my life when it's not an autobiographical book.
[7:31]It's got elements of me and elements of my life and what I find funny.
[7:34]But yeah, it's a hard balance.
[7:36]It's an author.
[7:37]I don't know if you find this too.
[7:39]Yeah.
[7:40]I mean, I feel very comfortable being open, but I also don't.
[7:45]I'm very aware of like where my limits are.
[7:48]Like I don't write about my kids and this and that.
[7:50]And like I have parts that I feel comfortable with.
[7:53]But you know, you have to sort of create your own compass and sort of stick by that and not be exhibitionist in a way.
[8:00]Right.
[8:01]I mean, I feel like you can tell when people are writing things almost for shock value or something.
[8:06]Right.
[8:07]But you have to just write what you would tell a friend I think.
[8:10]Yes.
[8:11]And also I think I think these kind of books where you're writing about sort of relationships and love and friendship.
[8:16]Obviously so much of that has come out of, you know, my own experiences of those things.
[8:21]But equally sometimes I think when you see writers, you know, doing a publicity article that's all about, you know, their anxiety or their own life or something.
[8:33]And you think would a male or sort of be doing that necessarily?
[8:37]I don't know if they would.
[8:38]Would they be asked to say, Oh, how did your how did your relationship relate to this book that you've just written?
[8:44]I don't know.
[8:45]Maybe they wouldn't.
[8:47]On the other hand, that's basically what I do with this entire podcast.
[8:50]I mean, like I am like endlessly fascinated by the story behind the stories.
[8:57]So I can't say that I'm not a consumer and avid consumer of those types of essays and conversations.
[9:04]Because I think I just feel like I'm not interested enough.
[9:09]Like I said, I'm just saying, Oh, you know, I've written this book and I felt, you know, and I love it.
[9:13]And I love the story and the characters.
[9:15]But I don't have a sort of, yeah, like I don't have a big story behind it or it didn't happen to me.
[9:21]So maybe that's just my own feelings of inadequacy of not having the right background.
[9:26]No.
[9:27]I mean, like you have to do what you feel comfortable with.
[9:30]I think a lot of fiction purely fiction authors versus people who write memoir and fiction.
[9:36]Or I think a lot of novelists have trouble with the personal essay.
[9:41]With the on-demand.
[9:42]Yes.
[9:43]And I'll essay when that is not their genre that they feel comfortable with.
[9:46]Right.
[9:47]Like it would be like asking like a non-fiction writer to just be like, Oh, I'm going to try to help sell my book by writing a short story.
[9:53]You'd be like, what?
[9:55]That's not what I do.
[9:57]So I think that the one.
[10:00]I, my husband reads my books at different stages of kind of, you know,
[10:03]sometimes he reads first draft, sometimes he doesn't read them till they're published,
[10:06]but he read this one sort of just last week and he loves it and says he's, it's his favorite
[10:12]because he actually really likes the slightly older protagonist because he sort of says,
[10:17]oh no, I don't really like reading about, you know, when you read, love life of 25
[10:20]girls, 26 roads, and actually writing about a 38, 38 year old suddenly he was interested
[10:26]and it was much more relatable to him. So that's interesting.
[10:29]Although I feel like in the good part we got to see, even though she was sort of,
[10:33]you know, psychologically young, she was inhabiting a life of someone a little bit older.
[10:38]Yeah, and actually this is slightly where that book came from because I've so enjoyed writing,
[10:43]that sort of older protagonist and that sort of, you know, in the good part she jumps forward
[10:47]from 26 to 42 and it's that again, it's like finding your love life in amongst the chaos of
[10:55]your existence and all the other things you have to grapple with in your career and your kids
[10:59]and keeping the house working and I enjoyed that so much I thought, oh, let's do that,
[11:04]let's do that kind of age bracket again. Yeah. Interesting. I'm writing my second novel now and I was
[11:10]reading it out loud to my husband and in it I said some comment like, like the mother is saying
[11:16]young lady to the protagonist and she's like, oh my gosh, I'm 47 when is my mother ever going to
[11:21]start calling me young lady? And my husband is like, I think like 44 would sound better and I'm 47
[11:28]and I was like, it does sound better, doesn't it? No, you're shifting it. You're shifting it down.
[11:37]Just go, yeah. I don't know. I guess I'm going to go down to 45. He's like, I think 44. I'm like,
[11:42]I'm not doing that. Like that's not how old I am, but anyway, anyway, I don't know. I don't know.
[11:46]I, I, so 38 is not, you know, you're still still on the younger end of in the middle of it.
[11:55]True. And I was talking to other authors about this who writes like the older protagonists and we
[12:00]were talking about kind of like where is that sweet spot where it's kind of older and more mature,
[12:05]but you're not kind of losing the younger or younger readers and I actually think it's getting older
[12:11]and older, which is, which is really heartening because I think actually what people perceive is
[12:16]kind of old and inverted commas is really shifting all the time. And you know, we get older. I
[12:20]don't feel like an old person in my mid 40s and I like hopefully that this carries on going and
[12:26]going. I said that to my son yesterday. He was talking about something about being older,
[12:31]whatever. And I was like, you know, I, I don't feel old and he's like, but that's what all old
[12:36]people say. Yes, exactly. That's true. That's true. If you even asked my parents, did you feel
[12:45]old yet? My mom and her mid 17s would say no. Yeah, exactly. Well, well, I love that you have chosen
[12:53]to sort of aid up your characters. And also you have such a following, right? And they're all getting
[12:58]I mean, not that you don't have younger women always discovering you and all of that. But I feel like
[13:03]you have a beloved devoted following who is aging along with your writing, right?
[13:10]Yes. And I also think that sort of as a rom-com writer and you're kind of looking what's funny,
[13:17]what's funny about dating and what's funny about love. And again, like the more experiences you have
[13:23]and the more it's not just, I guess, not just my like, it's my friends and talking to them about,
[13:28]you know, second marriages or still being single in your 40s and what the dating scene is like
[13:32]when you're still doing internet dating 30 years later. And all of that just sort of feeds in, I
[13:38]suppose, to the creative thought of what you're interested to write about. And also there's a degree
[13:44]of, if I was to write like a 22 year old heroine now, I know my kind of cultural references
[13:50]and lingo. I just mean nervous I'd have to get like a sense of degree to check, but it wasn't
[13:55]completely off points. Oh my gosh. Well, I have to say you're seen and I won't, you know, give
[14:03]anything away. But the scene between the windows was very hot. I don't know where they're
[14:10]came from, but very interesting and awesome. Oh, good. Well, this is another thing. Actually this
[14:16]book I would say for anyone who's read any of my other books. This is like my most like trophy book
[14:22]and it's my most kind of classic rom-com, I would say in terms of there's a lot of the
[14:28]the main couple on the page together. And it's a little it is a little bit spicy at them. It's still
[14:35]closed door technically, but it there is definitely a little bit more on the page than there has
[14:39]been in previous books. And again, I think I have come to know and love a lot of tropes through
[14:44]reading more romance and the kind of only one bed and enemies to lovers and all of that. And I think
[14:50]for me, this book was a bit of a let's chuck all of that in and have fun with it. But yeah,
[14:56]the scene by the window was a kind of I think some of the sexiest moments are often
[15:01]sort of imagined or there's a sort of barrier to them. Rather, you know, it's all about the kind of
[15:08]oh, how far is this going to go? Is this happening? Like that is often what makes it so hot in my
[15:15]mind. But yeah, everyone who's read that scene has said, oh my god, I love that scene. I don't
[15:19]know where it came from. I don't know where it came from. This is one of my fans is these.
[15:26]So how are you how and when are you writing all of your books? How are you getting it done? How
[15:32]are you translating the inspiration to words and like when how are you doing it all?
[15:40]Well, I do so I have two children who are eight and six and I, but I will never school.
[15:48]It's basically my full-time job. I'm writing, but I'm also doing screenwriting as well now because I
[15:53]have adapted my first book and I have also started adapting my second and third book, which is
[15:59]really exciting. But in terms of time, it really does sort of compete, you know, because you've
[16:04]got to write a book and then screenplay and the screen at the time frame on screenplays as well.
[16:09]You know, it might happen immediately. It might get stuck in development for years. So it's really
[16:14]hard to prioritize kind of what to work on sometimes. And I will say that I'm a really bad
[16:21]professor neighbor and I've got real issues with getting distracted. And sometimes I look back,
[16:26]maybe with racist glasses to when I wrote this time next year and I actually had a day job and I
[16:31]wrote the whole thing in the evenings around, you know, when the kids went to beds.
[16:36]And I imagine it was quite hard, but when I look back it seemed like a simpler time. I don't know.
[16:41]It was just sort of I had this window once the children went there. I wrote then. And actually
[16:46]now I have the whole school day really on a few clubs around the edges. Sometimes I am my own
[16:53]worst enemy because I just do get distracted and then have a mad panic in the last three months
[16:58]before it's in. But then I shampooed by that panic. So I think that's like also a bad
[17:03]trait to have learned where the kind of panic of a deadline is what gives you your kind of creative
[17:09]it's not a very healthy way to live. I don't know about you if you have that too.
[17:13]Well, you're making me feel much better.
[17:17]No, I had a week without the kids when they were with my ex and I was like, oh, I have all the
[17:23]time in the world to write. I'm going to be so productive, but it doesn't work like that. It's like
[17:28]when I have the kids, I know I only have from here to here to write. And so I have to do it. So
[17:33]somehow it's easier. I don't know. Totally. And you have you feel the time you have. And I
[17:39]always ask all the things about their sort of writing routine and what they do. And I spoke with
[17:43]speaking to an author in Jersey. And he was saying his routine is, you know, he goes for a dog walk
[17:49]and then he plays tennis and then he does an hour and a half of editing. And then he, you know,
[17:55]has lunch. And then he kind of has a martini and starts writing between like 430 and 630. And that's
[18:01]like that's what he does. And like the discipline, I'm just, I'm that's when he does it and there's
[18:06]no distraction in this. And I just thought, oh, God, if I could do that, I could write about four
[18:10]books a year. If I could be that sort of focused and dedicated and, but Instagram is not my friends
[18:16]in this, in this world. Well, it's also hard. You can't just be, you can't just produce words.
[18:22]There's so much more associated. I mean, you have to do so much more to be a writer than just
[18:28]wrote. Exactly. Yes. And I also, I don't know the writers often fall into camps of either someone
[18:35]who plans their novel or doesn't plan their novel. And I'm really bad at planning because for me,
[18:41]you know, every all the funny things that happen in issue really going out with him,
[18:46]are things that just sort of as I'm writing, I'm thinking, oh, what could be the worst thing
[18:50]that would happen on a date or, you know, there's a scene where the character worries she has
[18:55]has nits when she's on a date. And again, like, that's just such a, like, mom concern that
[19:00]would like, you know, all of our children have had like my life and nits. And it's just so
[19:05]disgusting. And like that for me, married with the idea of going on a date with someone you
[19:09]actually really fantasy is just like, the worst situation. But again, if I sat down with a blank piece
[19:15]of paper and tried to flot out kind of everyday idea that would be funny chapter by chapter,
[19:20]I just don't think I could. So for me, a lot of the magic is stuff that just sort of comes to
[19:26]but equally, I do think that's a harder way to write a book because it ends up having to find your
[19:30]way and your first draft is almost like your plan. And sometimes it means whole chapters get dropped
[19:36]and not used. So I kind of wish I could, I could be a bit more of a planner. I think it would be
[19:42]more efficient. But then sometimes, you know, writing is this, it's not like, I don't know what
[19:49]efficient job would be. But yeah, there's a kind of, as you know, say quads that you can't put your
[19:54]finger on about where creativity strikes. Yes. My gosh. Wait, tell me more about the-
[20:00]the annotations. Yes, so this time next year is the adaptation of my first book and it has
[20:10]been released in the UK already. I'm hoping it's coming to the UK in the autumn, but I'm waiting
[20:15]to hear about distributors, but it's got an amazing cast. It's got Lucy and Lab of Sound from
[20:20]Emily and Paris, Sophie Cookson from Kingsman and their playing Minnie and Quinn, and then it's
[20:27]got this also amazing secondary class, the secondary cast, Golda Rushiver from Bridgerton and
[20:34]John Hano, who's one of my personal heroes and Monica Dolan, who's like a ambassador award-winning
[20:40]actress. So it's this incredible cast and I wrote the screenplay and seeing it all come to life
[20:47]was just crazy. And I put myself in it as an extra as well, so that was my little Hitchcock moment
[20:54]where I pop up in a bright pink dress. And if you know what I look like, you can finally
[20:58]in the film. Oh, that's so exciting. I'm so happy for you. That's just awesome. I can't wait to watch it.
[21:06]And yeah, thank you. And I, yeah, I'm hoping as soon as there's news on kind of distributors and
[21:11]when it's going to be out in the US, I will I will post it on my Instagram. But it's also one of
[21:16]these things that you see from being involved in the movie process. There's so many books
[21:21]options and written and it's such a, there's such a long chain of things that need to happen
[21:27]to get something made. And it's, it's usually not even about necessarily the enthusiasm or the
[21:32]quality of the project. It's just sort of having the dominoes line up to get the director and get
[21:37]the funding and get the stars. And in this case, you know, the stars aligns and it all happened
[21:41]relatively quickly. So it was very exciting. But now I've really got the, you know, I've got the
[21:47]bug of being a screenwriter. So I, yeah, I just want to write even more movies and do more. And
[21:54]at that more books and do things for scratch and I need to clone myself. I love that. So fun.
[22:01]So how often are you writing books then? Like how often are you on a schedule? Like does your
[22:06]publisher say like we want to book for you every X months? Yes. So I'm writing a book a year.
[22:12]So I am literally finishing the proof read for this book this week and then starting another book
[22:18]next week. Oh, yes. Which is sometimes challenging. And sometimes you just want a little time
[22:25]just to sort of fit with an idea and go for long walks. And, and also some, some of my books have
[22:31]just dropped into my head fully formed on a walk. And I'll just sort of, I remember just
[22:36]haven't met you yet, which is about a girl who picks up the wrong suitcase from the airport and
[22:40]falls in love with the contents. And that just dropped into my head. So did the good part. But
[22:45]other books just take a little bit of developing and they evolve into something that they
[22:48]weren't originally and they take a little bit longer. And, and again, I wish one could
[22:53]control the creative process a bit more easily. But something you have no, the muses need to play
[23:01]and you don't often know when they're going to. Very true. Well, still, I think a book a year is,
[23:07]it's just so impressive. I mean, it's like a constant, you know, it's just that to keep going.
[23:13]It's just amazing. Yeah. And I do talking about the kind of, you know, obviously this is
[23:18]moms don't have time to read. And there are things that fall down the wayside. Like, I don't
[23:22]read nearly as much as I would like to. I often, I'm not a very fast reader. And I do feel like
[23:28]I have this huge list of books that I want to read both in my genre and and other genres. And
[23:33]actually, when I do get a moment to read, I remember I'm going to love, I love reading. And this is
[23:39]why I do this. And it's very nourishing as well and kind of makes me see what I like about books and
[23:44]what I like about writing styles. And, you know, and also with young children, you know, you've
[23:49]constantly have munggilts that, you know, you're missing a sports day or something because you have a
[23:55]deadline or you, you know, putting them in a camp over the summer. And, you know, on one hand,
[24:01]I want them to see me doing what I love and having a career and working hard. But then you
[24:06]also feel like this is such a short period of time. And already my eight-year-old, I see her kind of
[24:12]becoming a tweenager kind of saying she was dying out with her friends. She just want to hang
[24:16]out with me. And it's really, yeah, you think you it's really hard to feel like you've got the
[24:23]perfect balance and that you're definitely nailing it. And who I don't know who is.
[24:30]Yeah. I feel the same way. Like, am I missing too much? Am I, I don't know, would I, if I could go
[24:36]back, would I do it differently? I don't know. I don't know. The past five years have gone by
[24:41]in so fast. I don't know. Just like, oh, shh, gone. But I know. And so I saw something someone
[24:48]said the other day that really stuck with me. It was something on Instagram. And someone said
[24:54]slowing down and like taking, like, joy in your life. It's just telling yourself, like, these are
[25:00]the good days. Like, these are the good days. And like, obviously, you know, bad stuff happens. And
[25:05]who knows what's around the corner? And there's people have a lot of challenges in their life. But
[25:09]in some respects, especially with children, I really feel that. Like, these are the good days. I
[25:14]think I'm going to look back and think like, oh, wasn't that nice when they just called into bed
[25:19]with you and tuddled up to you and told you stories about their cuddly animals. So I'm just
[25:24]really trying to hold on to it. And also working really hard and feeling the guilt. But hopefully
[25:29]that appreciate them. They're going to school. And they say, my mommy's right there. And they take
[25:33]my book in for their teacher. And you think, oh, it's nice. They're proud of me. And also, you're
[25:38]showing them how to do it. Like, you know, they'll have to contend with all this as well as parents
[25:44]maybe, you know, when they have kids. And you know, it's not perfect. But at least for at least
[25:49]there's a model, right? At least there's a, I don't know. Exactly. Exactly. And my daughter is always,
[25:55]you know, she's already got a book that she's written. And she's like, well, can you just get
[25:59]it published, mommy? Because you've done loads. It must be really easy. And trying to explain to
[26:04]her that it's actually, it's not, it's not that easy. I can't necessarily have her book in
[26:08]for it by the end of the week. But who knows? She might be outselling me in a few years.
[26:14]So that way my kids do it. Like, we're writing one thing together. And my daughter's like,
[26:18]obviously, my name has to come first in this thing. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, here we go. You know,
[26:24]anyway. Yes, exactly. I've gotten a, we've got a little idea for children's books that I would
[26:29]love to write with my daughter. And again, as soon as, you know, as soon as time flows down a little
[26:33]bit, I would love to do something like that, like a collaboration or, you know, I just have
[26:39]so many, so many ideas for the things I could, I could do other genres to write, all sorts of things.
[26:44]Well, at least with the collaborations, for me at least, like that falls in my kid time, not in my
[26:49]work time. Yes, exactly. So that we can do for fun. That's not, you know, while they're at school,
[26:56]you know, so it's like sanctioned or something. When when exactly when and when, oh my gosh.
[27:02]Okay, so last question, what advice do you have for aspiring authors?
[27:07]Just getting going. My advice for aspiring authors would be just put some time aside every week,
[27:15]that is absolutely non-negotiable. Because I think life, every one, it's so busy, there's always
[27:20]something else to do. There's, there was the magical time and the magical muse are not going to show
[27:26]up at the same time. So just, even if it's just one morning, you get up and out before work,
[27:31]or even if it's like one Saturday, you block out a morning, just have something in a diary that
[27:36]is when you write. And not only will you get better, but you will eventually finish a draft of a
[27:42]short story or a book or whatever you're trying to do. And I think that discipline is also a really
[27:46]good practice to, to get into a day. And also listen to podcasts. This is the amazing thing. There
[27:52]are so many great podcasts like this one where you hear from authors, but also just sort of technical
[27:58]ones on how to write and how to pitch. And, you know, when I was starting out in my 20s trying to
[28:02]be a writer, there wasn't any of that stuff. And you were kind of just, I didn't know anyone in
[28:08]publishing or how to break in. And now it's so accessible and there's so much guidance, but really
[28:12]amazing. That's a great point. Okay, amazing. Sophie, thank you. Again, I am just obsessed with your
[28:20]book. And I was your last book. So you know, you're honestly, they have become one of my favorite
[28:25]authors. And oh, that's so kind. Thank you. I mean it. I really love how you write in all the
[28:30]stories. And I'm a huge fan, just a huge fan. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening to
[28:39]moms. Don't have time to read books. If you love it, please leave a review. And follow us on social
[28:44]at Civi Owens and at Civi Readers.